Rylas

What if the charge was broken down into brackets. Something like: Increase/Decrease 1-5 levels is a price range. Increase/Decrease 6-10 is a higher price. And so forth.

OR!! Do we need to consider the level range of the salvage being used? A recipe at one level may have cheap salvage, but in the next level it could be more expensive.

Of course, if something like this was implemented, what's considered expensive may change over time.

Blue, people telling you what you don't want to hear is not noise. We're actually trying to help you see where you're wrong. When you keep making blanket statements and spouting off hugely exaggerated numbers as facts, people won't take you seriously. If you respond with just putting your fingers in your ears and saying na-na na-na, it's going to make your reputation on the forums even worse.

Case in point:
No one has said anything to the effect of "Tanks need nobody." In truth, no AT needs another, they can all solo. But I think most tankers will agree that using a team is more beneficial due to synergy. I prefer playing teams if I'm not farming. You should stop making illogical jumps in your conclusions. People pointing out you're way off does not equal people not wanting to team.

No, your multiplier is WAY off. It's like saying England's neighbor is China sense the share the same land mass. It's a gross exaggeration. We all pointed out that this isn't the case. You accept Aett's argument as valid, but he's only saying what we said in a way you could understand. And if his points are valid, that means yours cannot be.

Please reread all the posts then. Carefully. Then point out the ones that said blasters do not out damage tanks. Just because it's not the numbers you made up doesn't mean we said they don't.

Now you're insulting people, but you point at others being upset. Is this how you win arguments? We've pointed out where your math isn't working. Shown you how in gameplay, that at most, you're talking 3x faster. It's not an insult when we say this, you don't have to be offended.

Hmm, no one's said it wouldn't be at least 2x the damage output. So this example doesn't really show how we don't understand math. It does show you changed your argument from 20x the killing speed to 2x the damage output.

Let's stop using politics. As apt as we might find them to be for analogy, it's just going to lock the thread down and keep something productive from happening.

Not upset, really. Just trying to help you see where you're wrong. I'm not the only person who's called you on it either. Seriously, step back and ask yourself why no ones jumped in and supported this claim.

Even that is overshooting the estimate. By a lot. Game mechanics just wouldn't allow this. Because the blaster will always be relying on these mobs to be on the tank, at most (and this is if you could wipe out 16 people with your AoEs before a tank takes out one person) would be 17x times faster than the solo situation.

And to average 20 times faster, from 1-40, with combat time only, means at some point, you'd need to be doing well over 20 times the killing as a blaster. If by level 20, the tank is killing 2-3 minions a minute (which most tanks would), then you'd need to be doing about 38-57 minions a minute. AoE caps would make that difficult. Now, levels 21-40 would make that window smaller, as the tank gets faster at killing. So this means levels 1-19 require the blaster kill even more than that to keep the average of 20 times faster possible.

See how this just won't add up, even counting just combat time?

So basically, if someone points out that your blanket statement is wrong, they go on the ignore list? Because there's probably more scenarios where a tanker/blaster team will move only 2-3 times as fast as a solo tanker, than 20 (and yes, that's for level 1-40 content playing). Then you put up a straw man argument about being level 2?

You're pulling numbers out of your *** and people (not just me) are calling you out for it for a good reason. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just telling you that what you're saying is impossible. Even over the course of 1-40. By level 20, many tanks have a well balanced survival/damage build. 20-40 is more than twice the time as that. There is no way, on average, that for every 1 mob a tank can kill, a blaster and tank would kill 20.

When everyone else is saying you're not right, it just might be time to reconsider what you're saying. It's a good time for learning.

IBTL?

I know of some Fire/Fire and Shield/Elecs who are laughing all the way to Wentworth's after reading this. And that's just to name a few.

He was talking about hyperbole. Yours.

I can solo my Shield/DM (who does have taunt) in a mission set for 8. I'll grab as much foes around me as possible and then launch off with Soul Drain and Shield Charge. Set to +1, I'll still wipe out all the minions, if not most of them, with just those two powers. The Lts. that are left can be taken down in 2-3 more hits afterward. Now, bring in a blaster, who has to wait for me to have control of the aggro, and how exactly would this same amount of foes be taken down 20 times faster? I could see 2, maybe 3, times faster. But that's about it.

Now, to say that a blaster is the equivalent of a tank is words you're putting into someone else's mouth. On paper, damage wise, it's certainly more than 2-3 times (certainly not 19) more damaging. But let's put this into practice, shall we? First off, the blaster, if he's playing like you, is waiting for the tank to grab up 17 mobs before he lets loose. Because if he gets aggro, he's not going to do a lot for long. So, you have two people taking out the same 17 foes. Not 2x17. If it's a high damage tanker like a Fire/Fire, then those mobs are going down fast anyway. Sure, the blaster will help make it faster, but it was already fast to begin with. So since you're not killing twice as many people at a time, how can you be killing so much as 20 times faster?

That's good, since I never made the claim that tanks kill faster than blasters. Take the time to read what's being said in response to things you have said.

You're under the impression that tanks will take forever to kill anything. Not so. You're under the impression that a blaster and tank will kill 20 times faster than just a tank. This is also not so. Many tanks can kill at a very quick pace. Just because you prefer that tanks be taunt bots and that they not slot for damage doesn't mean they can't still contribute a hefty amount of the team's damage while also defending the team.

If it's not as fast as a blaster, that doesn't mean it's slow.

This post shows how little you understand what can be done with a tank, especially with IOs thrown into the equation. I have a Shield/DM and a Shield/Elec that can destroy whole groups quickly. The Shield/DM can destroy a whole group and then pick off the bosses the fastest. Being teamed with a blaster won't make it 20 times faster.

And this post shows what you expect all tankers to play like. A taunt bot. And there too many numerous ways to enjoy a tank and be a good team player for that kind of expectation to be reasonable.

I haven't taken my Elec/Stone tank through LG. He's also IO'd out. Which probably makes a difference at this point. My pre-20 build is only slotted for end recov and frankenslot levels of enhancement, which does little for survival. The pre-20 is also 6 slotted on everything.

If you don't mind IO builds being used for reference, I'd gladly attempt the LG with him. The -res of the Horsemen could be difficult. I hadn't thought about them.

Highly informative and useful. Great work! I'd definitely like to see this stickied.

My one suggestion:

Electric as at least a Maybe for Positron. I've run through it a couple of times with an Elec/ who had a lvl 20 build specifically for running Posi and Synapse. He did pretty decent. CoT and Vahz do get difficult, but it wasn't usually overwhelming. But that could have been the team build that helped. Just my opinion and only take it as that.

[edit] Electric for Lady Grey, too. I hardly have any problems with Rikti when on an Elec.

Level 50 is no big achievement. It's not even time consuming. In fact, basing requirements around having a 50 is a good incentive for paying RMTers for a PL. I suspect this is one reason they lowered the requirement for Epic ATs (a very good idea). So you'd still have inexperienced players getting auto-levelled. No way, Jose.

While money in NC's pockets is good, noobs running around with 50's they bought is not.

While probably the more rational requirement, as this would infer game experience, the one thing that makes this a "NO" is that people sell their accounts. They shouldn't. Outside of the legal reasons, there's hundreds of reasons why they shouldn't. So a 6 year badge doesn't always prove something. Besides, I've seen people with 5 year badges who seem entirely inexperienced.

Bolded for emphasis.

This right here. This is what the OP (and many others) need to understand. For every person out there who complains about what you don't have, there's going to be someone else who complains if you do. What you want a tanker to do for you isn't what everybody wants the tanker to do for them.

You can't please them all, so what makes your opinion better?

Don't get me wrong. That's how I prefer to play my tank. With the team in mind first, and doing what I can to contribute to the damage second. There are different ways for these two things to mesh, after all, killing a mob keeps him from hurting my teammate. But this should be up to the judgment of the player behind the tank, not someone else. On a mixed team build, if the whole team is in trouble, and I have to choose between the blaster and the defender, odds are I'll choose the defender, because he can help in keeping the rest of the team safe.

But perhaps what you consider babysitting differs from my own definition. When I say babysit, I mean watch idly by while others have fun and step in to save/protect them only so they can play without thinking about what they're doing. Again, knowing I keep the team safe is fun, and it feels good. Doing nothing else but taunting and standing in herds with an aura on isn't fun. If by babysit you mean actively protecting the team and moving their progress forward using teamwork, then yeah, I'll strongly agree with you.

So yeah, the tanker is a babysitter in a sense. But he/she is not your babysitter.

[edit] I will say this, while I may play a tank to protect the team, I still believe a player has the right to play their tank differently. You or I may not agree with this, but it's not really are place to demand anything from them. Nor do I think it's necessary to preach to the tanker community my personal views of how tankers should play when I come across a tank that didn't play to my liking. Especially if it turns out their own play style was what got them in trouble.

Having a red name confirming this would be nice. At least the thread would result in something useful.

So you're just trolling then?

Here's a question, is it possible that two tanks can be aggro capped off of the same mobs?

Example: If two tanks are in a group of 34 mobs, and both their auras are hitting the same 10 people, would that mean the most they'll maintain aggro on is 24 (10+7+7)?

Or does that mean one tank has the 10 and the other tank will have to rely on other methods to get aggro? If this is the case, even with taunt, it would take quite some time to have aggro of all 34 mobs for both tanks. Because taking out their aura as a means for grabbing aggro (because aura range would be full of already claimed mobs from the other tank), means you have to wait for taunt to recharge, and for gauntlet to take effect. Granted, the other tank could try jumping around, and that would work, but this would still take time.

Either way, a blaster in this situation would still need to practice using their head. Correct?

Doing 30 seconds of bind typing so that the rest of the character's play life has a quicker, more efficient use of its powers is being complicated? Seriously?

How many people complain about TP because they have issues with clicking the power and then falling before they can click and point the target before they've fallen below the line of site of the location they were trying to go to? It's the same thing for SC or LR.

If you've reduced your window size too much for easy icon clicking, then you'll have a harder time activating the power when and where you wanted. But, if you have it bound to something like shift+lbutton, then you have it instantly.

If you like clicking icons, good for you. I'm not going to tell you that it's a bad play style decision, because to each their own. So if I'm asking around for good bind options, try not to be offended that I didn't go with your preference to click.

Which is why I'm glad I have thumb buttons on my mouse to open the ctrl button up for me.

Yeah, -216% recharge FTL! I pretty sure I saw my power icons move backwards.