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Quote:Wait. So the only way to get the Pupil badge, needed for the Atlas accolade, will be to go through Oro? That does not sound like a good idea.The cape contact is being moved, and the plaque will remain in the "echo" of Galaxy City in Ouroboros.
Maybe the accolade is obsolete now, with inherent fitness, and maybe it's not necessary to let it be easy for newbies to get. (shrug) It's not worth starting a big argument over, but hiding one of the more important hero-side accolades in Oro seems like a bad idea to me. -
The only two things I'll miss from Galaxy City are the one contact that's part of the cape mission, and the one plaque that's required for the Atlas Medallion accolade. As long as they move those two things to a safe zone, I'm good.
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Quote:Yes. Yes, there are cookie-cutter builds for Brutes, and for Blasters, and for Tankers, and for every archetype.The fact that they don't have to be cookie-cutter builds does nothing to change the fact that once the players figure out the most effective combinations, the cookie cutter builds are going to happen anyway.
Go look in the Brute section and tell me how many threads you find on the first 2 pages about SS/Fire and farming. We already have cookie cutter builds, and a lot of people are playing the same thing. If your suggestion were done, I'd give it a month, tops, before some intrepid power gamer figures out he best combo and everyone is playing that instead of SS/Fire brutes.
My point is that you can design a free-form system so that players will still have to specialize in one of the spheres of ability I outlined above. See the pretty colored graphic up there? There will be a cookie-cutter build for each of those, and for every combination of those. It's inevitable.
But that's 6 (single sphere) or 21 (two-sphere) additional cookies to choose from...plus the ability to make many, many more custom builds for those who *don't* want to use the cookie cutter. If cookie cutter builds are inevitable, isn't it best to steer the players toward as many different kinds of cookies as possible?
Quote:It also completely ignores the fact that this idea will be a HUGE amount of work.
Quote:And that juts plain ISN'T going to happen.
But as I stated in that other thread, those who don't speak up and offer constructive solutions have no right to complain later. I'm offering a suggestion to build up my complainer's karma for later.
This would greatly improve the game. It's not *that* difficult to do -- as I've shown, the mechanics for balance are already in the game. But it would be a drastic philosophical shift for Paragon Studios, so I have no hope that it will actually come to pass. Maybe for CoH2. -
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I may have bashed Khelds a little too much, and I apologize for that. I don't like the AT.
But my point with the entire TL;DR post is that a *balanced* system can be created which does *not* lead to cookie-cutter builds. A support character cannot be the same as a melee character cannot be the same as a tank, etc. The absolute worst case for this free-form system is that there may be a minimum of six superior builds, with infinite possiblity for customization around those. More likely, it will enable a slew of new hybrid archetypes that the game hasn't seen before. And those can all be balanced both proactively and retroactively if problems are found. -
Quote:Suggestion made. But of course, my fatalism tells me it's a waste of time.This is why I say it's ultimately an uninteresting discussion. It can't really lead anywhere useful other than to a suggestion post for the devs to consider.
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People have suggested that we try free-form power selection as a subscribers perk with the 'Freedom' initiative. Others have noted that this was tried in beta and rejected for balance reasons.
Well, beta was a long time ago and I have no idea what went on there. I think we should examine the possibilities of free-form power selection again. I believe it's possible to create a balanced system that veterans of the game will enjoy. And I believe that in part, the code to do it already exists.
First let's review how the current archetypes work.
Every archetype gets a primary and secondary. Some archetypes share powersets, and when that happens one is usually better than the other. That's because every archetype has multipliers that determine their effectiveness at every type of power.
I don't know the current archetype multipliers, but for reference let's say they look like this:
Blaster:Ranged damage multiplier 1.4
Mastermind:
Melee damage multiplier 1.2
Control multiplier 0.8
Buff/debuff multiplier 0.6
Defense multiplier 0.6
Pet health and damage multiplier 0.8Ranged damage multiplier 0.8
Tank:
Melee damage multiplier 1.2
Control multiplier 1.0
Buff/debuff multiplier 1.0
Defense multiplier 0.6
Pet health and damage multiplier 1.4Ranged damage multiplier 0.6
Note that these multipliers exist even for archetypes that don't normally get those abilities, because those abilities may exist in power pools. That's why blasters have a defense multiplier which affects the pool powers Tough, Weave, and Maneuvers, even if there are no true defenses in the blaster powersets.
Melee damage multiplier 0.8
Control multiplier 1.0
Buff/debuff multiplier 0.6
Defense multiplier 1.4
Pet health and damage multiplier 0.6
(Caveat: I'm not certain whether there is a pet multiplier for every archetype; if there is it may default to 1.0 to keep the Patron powers even.)
Others have said that CoX character building is essentially a tree skill system. But it isn't -- or at least, it doesn't have to be. It's a characteristics system, where instead of characteristics like Strength, Intelligence and Charisma you get hidden multipliers determining your ranged, melee, and defensive abilities.
The thing about characteristic systems is that they are easily balanced by making them exclusionary; Fighters don't get Intelligence and Wizards don't get Strength. I can best illustrate that for CoX with a chart:
Again, one could argue whether 'Pets' should be in there. Without it this becomes a five-color exclusionary system like Magic: The Gathering. But it's best to keep it, I think. Also, the placement of the abilities could be argued over; I could see swapping the positions of Support and Control, for example, which would better explain the Ice Blast powerset. But this is a first stab at describing the CoX system as exclusionary spheres of abilities.
As you can see, the current archetypes are formed mostly from abilities that are adjecent to each other on the diagram. Their powers are complements, and they are, in general, bad at doing anything from the opposing abilities. There are exceptions -- and those exceptions illustrate the balancing problems in the system. Masterminds are Pets+Support, and are notoriously overpowered. Dominators are Ranged/Melee + Control and have gone through several attempts to balance them. Kheldians combine abilities from several spheres and are so hard to balance it was apparently easiest to just nerf them into nigh unplayability. But most of the archetypes stick to two adjacent spheres of ability, with one or two powers borrowed from other spheres for flavor.
The way to balance a free-form power selection system is to expand the ability multipliers from the archetypes to the individual powers.
Let's take a hypothetical free-form character. I choose to build her as a melee defender, with a pet power; she's a fighting shaman with a spirit guide. The initial multipliers for my character, for every ability type, is 1.0. She is equally good at melee, defense, buff/debuff -- everything.
But every power I select will carry with it multipliers. I take Howling Twilight, which adds +0.2 Support, -0.3 Defense, -0.1 Melee and -0.1 Pets, because Defense is the opposite of Support on the chart and Melee and Pets are adjacent to it. I select Eagle's Claw, which adds +0.2 Melee, -0.3 Control, -0.1 Support and -0.1 Pets. And I take Phantasm, which adds +0.2 Pets, -0.3 Ranged, -0.1 Support and -0.1 Melee.
Just with those three powers, my character's multipliers are:Ranged damage multiplier 0.9
As I choose more and more powers for my shaman, I will be trading off Melee, Support, and Pet multipliers. Maybe I'll find a way to balance the three. But the system can be designed so that the end result will be decreased abilities across the board, especially if I delve into another ability sphere. And it should be designed so that the base archetypes remain unchallenged; their multipliers will always be higher in their specialty than any free-form character. (Easiest way to do that is to clip the free-form multipliers at 1.3, or whatever.)
Melee damage multiplier 1.0
Control multiplier 0.7
Support multiplier 1.0
Defense multiplier 0.7
Pet multiplier 1.0
Maybe I'll want to give her a single defense power. Oh, no, tankmage! But that defense power will be very weak because the multiplier will be very low, and it will reduce the efficiency of my Support powers. The more I generalize, the weaker my character will be, until I'm getting beaten up by Khelds.
This system also allows tweaks on certain powers. Howling Twilight is very powerful; because of that, perhaps it gives -0.15 to its opposing spheres. Permafrost is a very, very weak power, but maybe it gives a bonus of +0.4 Defense multiplier. Maybe there's never a drawback for selecting Buildup, because it shows up everywhere. The tools available for balancing this system are extensive, powerful, and precise.
Can you build a non-viable character this way, one that's inferior to all other archetypes and incapable of soloing? Of course you can. That's why we limit the free-form system to subscribers and veterans and put warning labels on it. Freedom should include the freedom to fail, even in character builds, for without the possibility of failure there's no thrill in success.
All that is needed to implement a free-form system in this way is to add multiplier values to the all existing powers. Then build the GUIs to construct powersets out of all the powers available, and a way to select those custom powersets at character creation.
That's all non-trivial; I'm not saying this would be easy. But it is far from 'impossible'. And it would be a terrific addition to the game. -
Quote:One, a free-form power selection system would be loaded with warnings and it would be restricted to subscribers, veterans, or whoever purchased it -- guaranteeing that if the player doesn't know what they're doing, at least they should be aware of what they're getting into.If I've made it seem like I mind a "points buy" system because of its potential to create overpowered characters, that's really not my concern. My chances of making overpower characters for myself decreases dramatically as the complexity of the system increases. On the contrary, I hate these systems because there's no safety net against gimping yourself.
Second, 'freedom' should include the freedom to fail, even in character builds. Without the possibility of failure there's no thrill in success.
Quote:You may say that, well... The point of a points buy system is to explore the options and if you gimp yourself then that's just part of the experience. Except if I've ever talked about how much I HATE HATE HATE Diablo II, it's because I gimped a few characters in it, played with them horribly underpowered, died all the time and got so pissed off that I've held a grudge against that game for... How many years has it been since it came out now? Like... 8? 9? And I'm still pissed off!
Let me risk gimping myself. Then I will feel accomplished when I learn how not to. Giving players only fixed, pre-vetted archetypes is like giving them an 'I Win' button for the character building metagame.
Quote:I did actually hear something about the development team considering making new pool powers, but I doubt that'll happen any time soon. For some reason, pool powers have been almost completely unchanged since the GDN. -
Quote:Agreed. I don't expect anyone will listen, but if we don't speak at all then we can't complain later.I'm not trying to force the development team's hand. None of us could. About the only thing I can do is state my position as firmly as possible.
Is that too fatalistic? As I posted elsewhere recently, I survived ED, the defense fiasco and years of regen nerfing. After repeated exposure to radioactive developer decisions, fatalism is now my superpower. -
Quote:How about an area-of-effect focused Defender? Gimme a blast secondary filled with cones and fireballs. Don't tell me it would be overpowered, since it's effectively what Crab VEATs have now, and it's not that far from Corruptors' Fire Blast.That's actually one of the strongest arguments against such a system - what's the point? I'm sure everyone has the one or two things they'd like to make which the current system really can't, like Gun Fu, all elements, tank-mage and so forth, but what we have right now is... Surprisingly versatile.
How about a melee Controller -- a true Scraptroller? For that you'd need a secondary with at least a little defense and status protection, and a primary that mixed controls with melee attacks. Would that be overpowered? I doubt it has to be; surely there's some level of weak defense and soft controls that would function.
How about a ranged Tank? Yes, yes, tankmage, yadda yadda. With weak ranged damage modifiers attached to hard defense powers, there's no reason you couldn't balance a defense primary and a ranged secondary, and it's an archetype you see in the comics all the time.
How about melee + support, with no defense? How about ranged damage plus pets? How about all support with no offense? Stalker assassinations plus ranged damage? Melee sets with a controller pet at the end of them? Themed defenses paired with blaster secondaries, like electric armor and electricity manipulation?
Look, this game is geared for explorers. Most people like to explore the content, but some of us like to explore the game mechanics. The mechanics in this game have an enormous amount of design space that is unused. I'm not looking for power combinations that are overpowered; I'm looking for combinations that are new, and that give me new ways to play.
Quote:In my experience, almost all of the concepts people are after that seem to fall in-between ATs and powersets right now can be achieved trough the addition of new epics, patron pools, power pools and weapon/costume options. If I want, for instance, a character who uses a sword and a pair of handguns ala Dante, this can be achieved via adding a pistols epic to Scrappers/Brutes/Stalkers or a sword epic to Blasters/Defenders/Corrupters. -
Quote:But you admit that a free-form power selection system could be done in CoH. The technical and balancing problems are solvable.And the most important aspect of choosing a powerset is that it locks you out of all other powers in all other powersets of the same type. This "limitation" is fundamental to why the choice is actually meaningful. Its not a weakness of the design: its a critical strength.
The next step is giving such a system useful choices so that players have to make decisions, and you hit it on the head; selecting some powers should exclude other powers. Ranged attacks could exclude strong defenses. Buff and debuff powers could exclude melee attacks. Strong defenses could exclude control powers. The CoH power system could be organized not as a tree, but as a type system like Magic: The Gathering where some power types oppose other power types and cannot be mixed. In this way you would have meaningful choices that lead to the exact same archetypes we currently have but with more player customization.
It's doable. I can understand them not wanting to put the resources into it, because now they're all about getting new players rather than improving play experience for veterans. But it is within the realm of possibility, and it's a feature that some players desire. -
Quote:So don't keep powers at the same tiers. If a power is too strong for its tier, make it higher in the customized powersets. Conversely underpowered powers can be taken at lower tiers. Why bother limiting the system to being able to replicate existing sets?I'm not sure if there is a way to do ti right at all within the context of a video game. However, I KNOW that there is no way to do it right as an add-on to the current game. 2 Minutes looking through the Defender primaries is enough to show that. For example (using the power must remain at the same tier rule):
You do realize that in order to do this they're going to have to create a separate database of customizable powers anyway, so there's no need to adhere strictly to the existing ones. May as well use tier shifting as one of many balancing strategies.
It's doable. Other games have done it. I can't think of a good reason not to do it here. -
Quote:I didn't play pre-Beta, so I have no assurance that they did it right. I see several options for doing it right. Thus, I suggest that they attempt it again.This system existed once before, in CoH pre-Beta, and it was abandoned. There was a good reason for this.
Quote:No, we may not. I HATE what veteran reward attacks have done to the game and what Booster Pack powers are doing to it. The last thing I want is to make things worse. Just because things are bad doesn't mean I want to make them ten times worse. The next thing you know, we'll be buying experience, Inf and Incarnate XP. Do not want. Ever. -
Quote:I just want to point out that we enter this situation as soon as Freedom becomes live. The Veteran powers and the Costume Pack powers are vital parts of some character builds, allowing them to be stronger. As soon as people are able to buy those things a la carte, the income class struggle is on.Additionally, selling power or real money just creates an environment where those with the most disposable income are always the strongest, and class struggle is not why I come to games.
We are going to have a disparity in character builds based on how much players are willing to spend. It's unavoidable. We may as well do cool things with it. -
Quote:Signed. They should make this happen.The Ultimate Freedom this game can achieve, in my opinion, is to allow you to create your own powerset through Cash Shop.
Animations are not a problem. You'd create a powerset by selecting from already available powers, each of which has an animation already.
Balance is not an unsolvable problem. Mark each power as defense, offense, utility or support. Have the player select one of those when they create the powerset. Powers that match the powerset are at full strength; powers that do not are drastically debuffed. Thus you can make a support powerset with Acclerated Metabolism (support), Howling Twilight (support), and Energy Transfer (offense), but ET will be at a fraction of its usual strength. There'll be no tankmages, and no all-purpose powersets. You'll still specialize but you'll be able to customize also.
Code is a problem. But they're rewriting a lot of code for the Freedom initiative anyway; may as well spend some of that manpower giving existing players something they want. -
Apparently this is a trademark GG sarcastic joke. I normally get those, but I haven't been *that* up to date with what's happening in i21, so I don't get the funny.
i21 has some stuff for casual players, yes. But it's not here and I don't know when it will be. We were discussing i20.5. -
Quote:Keep in mind, the casual players are also using their astral/empyreal merits to get their incarnate slots open and slotted.I know there are plenty of people who are trying to argue that costs like these are too high. But honestly anything in an MMO that's considered to be "end game content" that you can finish earning as quickly as 13 days (or even say in like 45+ days if you are semi-causal about it) seems completely reasonable to me. *shrugs*
I have 10 level 50 toons. Months after the incarnate system debuted, I still only have one incarnate with +3 level shifts. The rest are still running at +1 and have yet to unlock their Lore and Destiny slots. I have no astral merits -- since they had no apparent use, I was converting them to much-needed threads. I *might* have 3 emp merits on two or three characters.
I'm just too casual for this endgame content, I suppose. A shame, since that's all the new content we're getting. -
They probably weren't mentioned because they're a couple in name only, or should be if continuity were observed in the Marvel universe. Sue has had two affairs, and Reed is a total dick who she should have divorced years ago. They're about as solid a 'couple' as Hank and Janet Pym.
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If you want to bring up one-night stands, don't forget about Hercules and Northstar.
Of course there was also Hercules and the queen of Niflheim, Hercules and Snowbird, Hercules and Black Widow, Hercules and Namora, Hercules and Skyppi the skrull, and Hercules and FILL IN THE BLANK.
Nobody, but nobody, gets as much as Herc does, except maybe Tony Stark but Stark pays money for his. -
And then next year we have the new Spider-Man movie, with technology-based web shooters and sticky gloves/boots. Yeah, that one's going to suck hard. This is what happens when Hollywood mines a genre dry.
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Quote:And nobody except a select few knew how the world was before.Wasn't that just part of the story arc, and in the end of the story arc, all returned to normal except for a bunch of mutants losing their mutant abilities.
Just like the story arc in Crisis, where at the end of the story arc all returned to a new normal, except for some specifics that had changed.
Both were universe-wide retcons that allowed the writers to tell some new stories and some old stories over again. -
Yeah. Scarlet Witch rewrote all of reality, so that most mutants were either never born or were born as normal humans. It was at least as big a reboot for Marvel as Crisis on Infinite Earths was for DC.
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Quote:And that's why we love Bruce Banner.It's not just Peter Parker. Go check out a wiki entry for another of Stan's creations: Bruce Banner. That man has been tortured more than any other. Bruce cannot seem to find happiness for more than a few issues at a time before something or someone else comes and strips it away. At least Peter was allowed a 20+ year marraige that could console him when he came home after the latest beating.
Actually, though, Bruce has been married three times; to Jarella of the micro-kingdom, to Betty Ross, and to Caiera of Planet Hulk. The green guy gets around. Unfortunately, none of those marriages last...but the Hulk is one hero whose story would end if he settled down into a happy marriage. -
Quote:The only difference is that Marvel reboots their superheroes one at a time. Every hero in the Marvel stable has died and come back younger and changed, or gone through some other reboot, at least once.<signed>
And lets be honest here, DC has gotten a little too happy with rebooting the Universe, its not like it has even been 5 years since the last time they did it. While I might not always agree with the directions Marvel has went, the fact is, they haven't rebooted once.
And even with all those individual reboots, Marvel still had one universe-wide reboot: House of M. It didn't affect every title but it did hit a great many of them. -
I respectfully disagree.
More likely, Hollywood just doesn't know how to do spandex right, or it is too hot and fragile to wear for daily filming.