Psypunk

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Coming in i-9, vengeance with a 30 minute recharge time.

PvP, son

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[censored] was that? lol

I love how stacking Vengeance is "so" hard, yet every build has Vengeance in it and every team is able to get off 3-4 Vengeances every gather in every match, lol.

Hey, I admit right now that we also stack Vengeance. Sometimes we're the winners, sometimes we're the losers. However, in just about every situation I can trace the turning point of the match to who got off the stacked Vengeance and the match falls apart. Personally, I would like to get back to matches that relied solely on a team's coordination on targets and the fundamentals...not who looks out and gets a big Vengeance stack and then completely dominates no matter team skill level.

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Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.

One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.

Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.

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Really how come NDX, can come from behind to roll another team after they use stacked Vengeance on them at the beginning. How come Ive seen I believe Freaks vs HVND third match gather for a vengance, HVND get off a nuke and turn the tide in their favor taking match three. Ive seen matches where both teams play the Vengance game and one team still wins big, just cause JAL cant overcome it, dont put other groups on their level. Ive also seen aim plus cage hit through multiple Vengeances, Ive seen people get spiked hard with multiple Vengeance going. Also 4 stacked Vengeance off isnt the easiest thing to do when in the high-end pvp game, most people are in different directions, so your going overboard there two maybe three tops and that might only hit one or two people. JAL was losing big before Vengeance and they will probably be losing big after it gets changed, sry to be brutally honest sometimes you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette though and saying Vengeance is the root of all PvP woes is just funny.

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We beat Lion's Den before this Vengeance stacking was known about. So, go stick it. Number two, your logic is utterly flawed.

Stacking Vengeance is easy...if you don't think so, then you're not very good at PvP - which to be honest, you AREN'T very good at PvP, so that explains it. You want the exploit because that is how you are successful.

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i really dont think they should mess with Veng stacking if a team works together to get it off but i am all for nerfing the "loading into a match with 7 stacked"

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The problem is that one "gather" can completely eliminate any semblance of a fair, challenging match.

Ok..gathering for Vengeance takes some skill. But, really, how much skill are we talking about? lol...Is it comparable to after the gather every blaster on their team can go rogue and take down targets in 2 attacks with no need for debuffs??

Is it comparable to after stacking 4-5 Vengeances all the practice your team has put in can mean zero? Basically, teams need only to worry about practicing to gather for Vengeance effectively, stack 5 Vengeances, and every person on their team goes rogue with no coordination whatsoever.

Stacking Vengeance is no different than targeting macros. How difficult is it to gather on a dead body? lol Some of you guys act as if gathering for Vengeance is some type of art form only a few can master. ANY team can master this very quickly and suddenly find themselves beating teams that have been practicing together for months, or even years. Just like targeting macros turned zeroes into heroes.

The minimal effort, skill, and risk involved gathering for Vengeance no where near matches the reward involved. Personally, I don't like matches being decided on exploits and minimal skills.

Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.

One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.

Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.

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[(Also Psypunk, the reason I keep responding to you personally is that you are coming across as an elitist to me. Could be a misunderstanding, but that's how you're sounding to someone that doesn't know you from Adam.)

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Why do you need to know who the rep is if you feel that you getting involved just adds one more cook to spoil the soup?

Either you agree with me that the players should be more involved and these server reps should actually be "reping" something...or...you feel your involvement would simply get in the way and you don't deserve to be consulted or asked for an opinion now and then concerning things that may affect you.

I don't need to approve of any members...the fact that involving the "community" in some of this was seen as having too many cooks I felt was elitist - as many of the players currently on the committee really have no real reason why they're involved in the first place and are no more qualified than anyone else to be doing what they're doing.

I'm sure you are as qualifed, or more so, then 80% of the current committee Kung_Pow. Now, if you don't agree with me, that's fine...but I'm only arguing for a chance to have your opinions or thoughts heard, should you have one. I'm only arguing for these "Server Reps" to actually start doing something and actually start creating a dialogue with their communities. I would guess the VAST majority don't know who their Server Reps are and most players knew nothing regarding this pvpec or this event until I started posting about it.

If voicing my opinions and trying to get some of the opinions of other players heard makes me elitist, then ok, I'm elitist.

YOU SHALL BOW BEFORE ME!!!!

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The answer to this question is that I as the attacker expect under the current system to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time. The latter half being my experience in pvp zones playing as a /ninjitsu stalker.

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To clarify here: Does this mean, in a perfectly balanced system, you would expect Max To Hit to always completely negate Max Defense? That's how I read what you have written.

To everyone:
The availability of To Hit buffs is a seperate question. Assume for purposes of this exercise that you have access to buffs far beyond what you would need to reach a maximum value.

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Absolutely not. I do not think max To Hit should automatically trump max Defense. That's what yellows are for.

No one even uses yellows in PvP, lol...accept in zones to see stalkers. They aren't necessary, that should tell you something.

Players like bubblers and SR scrappers get TOASTED in anything larger than a pentad and other players aren't even using yellows.

If anything, defense heavy sets should have some form of unresistable defense per se maybe, to put them more evenly on par with the insane amount of To Hit buff capability...or just quite simply lower the cap of To Hit buffs...because with Tactics, Focused Accuracy (a BIG problem in and of itself, it should be a click not a toggle), Fortitude, Vengeance (when stacked forget about it), etc. I will chew through defense all night long.

Maybe have To Hit buffs reach a MUCH lower cap against certain powers or sets...I don't know, but it definitely is a big balance issue.

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Right now in matches, it's hard to get a gauge of where defense sits, because people stack vengeance through the roof (despite that it's not SUPPOSED to stack) but on my other thread, I made a basic list comparing everything

http://tinyurl.com/2ky36c

I have the two proposals there. Honestly, I think that tohit buffs need an overhaul as well anyway, but my first proposal would be a step in the right direction. however, doing both would be total overkill in favor of defense sets.

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Vengeance stacking is a huge problem...

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However, In PvP, defense should have a reasonable cap, so that an attacker with well slotted accuracy and/or ToHit buffs can hit, say 25-30% of the time.

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Again, the problem with this thinking is there is WAY more +To Hit buffs then there are +Defense buffs, especially if there is a cap in place.

So basically, Defense with a cap becomes no defense at all when players are buffed to the hilt.

I agree pretty much with pudds values...and I'd also like to state that pretty much the amount of +To Hit buffs and -Defense Debuffs really make defense pretty worthless.

People activate PFF and can't even attack and still spiked through it, lol. Defense and To Hit is definitely a "fine line", but right now I think defense is on the short end.

Last I heard, that is correct.

Uh yeah, I have heard of too many cooks spoil the soup...that is basically what the committee is now, lol. Jesus.

However, including the community in this process does not mean they are "spoiling the soup". That's a rather elitist attitude and while I have faith in Rift and Incursion, there are plenty of other facets of this event that the players could be consulted on or included. I'm hearing a lot of players wanting some basic information, wanting a way they can be heard, wanting a way that possibly they can influence this event that is being designed FOR THEM....and I'm not hearing a lot of support from pvpec members.

I think it's important for the pvpec to represent the community and to get this community as involved as possible. I would be willing to help with this matter, but it is going to mean people on the committee actually remember who it is they're serving AND getting some of these server reps to actually start doing something.

I love how the "Protector Server PvP Rep" feels getting the community involved is too many cooks spoil the soup, lol.

Well, Ex Libris, I think what the players are also saying is they'd like an opportunity to be involved. Without ANY knowledge of what is going on, it's hard for players to get behind this one way or the other. It also appears that things are being decided for them, rather than committee members representing the communities.

What good is it to have a Server Representative when the casual player has no idea what the PvPec is up to? How can you have questions/comments regarding something you know nothing about?

Can't server reps bring contests to the community...polls...questions....etc. for the players to comment on without giving away exactly what you guys are planning? There has to be a way players can be more of a part of this process.

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It's going to be very beneficial to the rest of these committees that the PvPEC came first, because if there's one thing you can see about the PvP community, it's that they're brutally up front with their thoughts. There seems to be an undertone in your post that you somewhat blame the PvP community and some ex-committee members for the ranting and paranoia surrounding the committee's construction, but the fact is that the committee has been lax in terms of communicating with the community they represent. It just so happens that you picked the most vicious bear in the den to poke with that stick first, so the repercussions have been impressive in scale.

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This is honest and good feedback. As a committee we DO need to communicate better and many of us have expressed that recently. Expect to see alot more communication in the coming days leading up the event.

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I think this is a very good move in the right direction, however not just one way vertical communication. Players need to hear what's being proposed and be given an opportunity to have their comments/ideas/suggestions to be heard.

Sheema,

Excellent points and post.

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Hello Everyone,

To introduce myself , as the name says..Im Genna. The PvPec Chair Person.


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lawl

How about this?

How about the PvP community makes their OWN committee...Libris acts as a Community "representative" and supports this committee, instead of planting cronies like yourself in the head positions...and we use you and other players to help out?

Sounds good to me, insane I know that a Community Rep. would actually let the "community" guide themselves and pick their own leaders, but hey I'm a crazy guy, lol.

I nominate Rift for Chairperson.

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But Psy, you nominate Rift for Chairperson when Rift himself asked everyone to cool it and trust in the committee as it is.

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Was that before, when committee chairs were said to hold equal footing? Or after, when certain individuals expressed they were "in charge"?

You don't know anything about what you're talking about dude. You don't know how this committee was put together OR anything about the PvP community.

This PvP committee was selected for us...we're perfectly able to organize ourselves as we've never had any dev support to begin with genius.

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Hello Everyone,

To introduce myself , as the name says..Im Genna. The PvPec Chair Person.


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lawl

How about this?

How about the PvP community makes their OWN committee...Libris acts as a Community "representative" and supports this committee, instead of planting cronies like yourself in the head positions...and we use you and other players to help out?

Sounds good to me, insane I know that a Community Rep. would actually let the "community" guide themselves and pick their own leaders, but hey I'm a crazy guy, lol.

I nominate Rift for Chairperson.

Excellent point. This primarily sums up much of the frustration from players that I have been hearing. There absolutely needs to be more of an opportunity for the general community to get involved and to participate.

I've said my piece, so I'm not going to keep rehashing the same stuff over and over. But, I do hope the things I had to say were taken to heart and do illicit some changes in how things have been handled/designed up to now.

Great guide on the use of Vengeance, extremely important. How many matches have we seen recently where Vengeance has turned a match around for a team?

Amazing guides by an amazing player, good job Sing and gg's.

Name - Justice for All League / Paragon Shadow Syndicate
Server - Freedom
Faction - Heroes / Villains
Size - Medium (30's) / Small (10-15)
Recruiting - Invite / Yes
Contacts - @Psypunk or post on Forum boards in my sig
PvP Preference - All

History - The Justice for All League is both a PvE and PvP group that has been around since the game first started. Over the last year more and more of our members have become interested in PvP, so we've spent quite a bit of time improving our skills and recruiting players we need. Shortly, we will turn our attention to our VG. Our nights for doing PvP events as a group are Mondays and Thursdays and we already have those nights booked up with battles for the next month or so. We're always looking for new members, however, most players must prove themselves in the JAL II before getting invite to main SG. This helps us weed out the suckas...

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(Hurricane) quickly becomes outstripped in power as soon as powers like Focused Accuracy come into play....Then, it is just basically a -range and that's about it.....the melee component is gone, people kite through it all day long. Hell, Inv/Em tanks just walk right up and kick your [censored] and Spine stalkers and scrappers could care less, they'll just critical you to death from outside the Hurricane's range. All the other scrappers like Katana and Martial Arts, that Hurricane once affected, now kick your [censored] with Focused Accuracy....and the Ice/Eng blasters just hit build-up/AIM drop your toggles with Total Focus and light your [censored] up in two seconds.....

If anything, Hurricane should INCREASE with level, so that it scales somewhat as other archetypes become stronger.

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That is my experience with hurricane in PVP. EN/Inv tank just kited through and hit my every 3 attempt. Spines stalker just nails me no problem

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Well, that's the thing isn't it? And I've sent PM's to Castle and Statesman informing them of this problem before Hurricane was even looked at. See, the developers think because they know the "coding" and the exact mathematical "numbers" to all the powers, that they know the game better than people who play a certain powerset EVERYDAY.

Anyone who has played a Stormer knows the above....the fact that their nerfing a set like Dark Defenders or Hurricane is ridiculous. Look, I don't know any of these developers from Adam, but it seems they spend a little too much time "DATAMINING" and too little time actually playing the game and interacting with the Community....Anyone who knows the least bit about game play, knows how to deal with Hurricane, TK, or Repulsion bubble. Period. I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANY developer could beat ANY regular pvp'er in the Arena....seriously doubt it. That is a problem, if the people designing the game aren't playing the game....We all know that anyone who regularly PvPs could rattle off a dozen changes that need to be made before you start nerfing Dark Defenders and Hurricane, lol!!

If a n00b stalker is getting hurricaned into a corner, so be it...let him learn tactics like everyone else. Why this is even an issue, who knows. A base raid is TEAM pvp, if someone is being repelled into a corner, let them look to their team for help!! God, is it that hard??!!!

Why don't the devs worry about why the Arena crashes every other match, unless you have Observers turned off?? Someone sent a PM to Castle and he said this was the first time he has heard about this bug!! LOL...wow. Yet, every player who plays in the Arena knows about this and have sent in bug reports and petitions, to no avail.

Put Hurricane back to the way it was and leave it, TK, and repulsion bubble alone. Let a player look to his TEAM to formulate countertactics instead of dummying this game down to the lowest common denominator.

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I completely agree with your wisdom: Hurricane was a melee safe zone. I'm also thankful for you teaching me how Lightning Storm is an immobile ranged-attacker rather than a mobile ranged-attacker. The rest left me feeling a bit embarassed for you; I can only assume your ego forces you to claim things you don't really believe. Which is fine.

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What in the hell are you talking about? Hurricane is FAR from a melee safe zone, your assessment of the Storm set is so offbase it is embarassing. You are arguing points that don't even matter, just to avoid admitting you are wrong about the crux of the argument.

Who gives a [censored] about Snowstorm and whether it is a "ranged" or not? All it does is -speed, and has very limited application in the PvP game anyway. Same with Freezing Rain, who gives a [censored]? The range on it is negligible and it is easily avoided in PvP......the only real application for Freezing Rain is PvP is for the stormer to cast it in his/her immediate vicinity once someone has been immoblized or pushed into a wall or otherwise held.

A storm has NO debuffs against ranged attacks. Zero. A spines scrapper will eat a storm for lunch everyday all day. Same with a spines stalker. Blasters, same story if they're good with plenty of BF's.

Hurricane's debuff before to hit debuff enhancements were nerfed was negligible post 40. Hell, for some builds, before that even....You speak as someone that has MAYBE gotten a storm to mid-20's and now all of a sudden you are an expert. It's obvious you never have had Lightning Storm because you thought it follows you around, LOL. Dude, shut the hell up, you are a wanna be know it all.....You are wrong, stop posting....deal with it. You don't know what you are talking about. Your posts are a waste of space.

At your experience level regarding Hurricane, yes it is much more useful in the 20's and low 30's. However, it quickly becomes outstripped in power as soon as powers like Focused Accuracy come into play....Then, it is just basically a -range and that's about it.....the melee component is gone, people kite through it all day long. Hell, Inv/Em tanks just walk right up and kick your [censored] and Spine stalkers and scrappers could care less, they'll just critical you to death from outside the Hurricane's range. All the other scrappers like Katana and Martial Arts, that Hurricane once affected, now kick your [censored] with Focused Accuracy....and the Ice/Eng blasters just hit build-up/AIM drop your toggles with Total Focus and light your [censored] up in two seconds.....

If anything, Hurricane should INCREASE with level, so that it scales somewhat as other archetypes become stronger.

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pretty much true for all MMO's except guild wars. In GW the devs actually are out there playing with the players and getting feedback from the experienced players on what's too much, and what needs a boost. The devs there are always watching the playoff/championship matches to see if any certain powers are out of hand. if only the devs did that here, pvp balance would be going in the right direction.

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[censored] Guild Wars....

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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.

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The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.

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Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.

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Call me crazy, but what is so bad about pinning people in a base raid using Hurricane or Repulsion bubbles?? In my opinion, if an AT doesn't have a resist against this type of power, it should be a bonafied tactic. Honestly, I'm not really clear on what the big problem is....If they can do it, so can we...

If someone is pinned against a wall, what stops that person from asking for help from his SG mates and having a blaster or spines scrapper beat the living hell out of the Stormer to free his teammates??

Why does EVERYTHING have to be nerfed? People are using a legitimate function of a power in a useful and tactical manner....I am just not convinced that the Developers needed to step in on this....or in fact many of the things that have been changed in issues past.

If using a bubbler or a stormer is a legit tactic in base defense, then the opposing side better have an answer for that before they raid.....

Like was mentioned before, Hurricane is already VASTLY underpowered at the high levels anyway...so, in all regards it seems a change was really not that warranted. Could not the player base have figured out a way to deal with this challenge themselves??

Did this problem REALLY need developer intervention?? On issues where there are exploits and it is entirely out of a player's control to deal with, I can see developers stepping in and making necessary changes. But, in this situation, it seems that players could've stepped up their game and worked out countertactics against this......just my opinion.