Pebblebrook
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:There's some interesting distinctions in infographic numbers. The characters created and xp earned are stated as "since 2004" and it doesn't specify if the characters created are counting alts that were deleted since then or if it includes trial account characters or how many are level 50s. Aside, from the bouts of inf spammers, there was also a couple of incidents of SG trial account padding when the devs announced they were awarding certain number of prestige per SG member. This was back when you can invite trial characters into the SGs.Originally Posted by Sermon
I kinda wondered if the XP number was off as well. Per paragon wiki a single level 50 has 39,149,119 cumulative xp. If I am mathing it right, that would be the equivalent of only about 400 level 50 characters.
The inf number curiously is stated as inf currently held from the last 4 months...."held by players in 2011" Does that mean currently subscribed players? -
Quote:When you said you will endeavor to consider the solo/small teamers in future decisions, i was surprised given the game's history that it wasn't given equal weight in the development decisions for the incarnate system from the beginning. But it's nice you acknowledge the prevalent desire for it and hope it won't take a year to get it out.Originally Posted by Second Measure
The next year in particular already bears some true surprises, and your characters will become more important all the time.
Related to this, the Incarnate System is an important part of our plans, and in May we will be going into closed beta with the next Incarnate Trial: Keyes Island Anti-Matter Reactor. As I have noted before, we will add incarnate Trials with every issue, but this year we will roll out even more Incarnate Trials to build a solid foundation for the future. We will also expand the Incarnate Abilities periodically, though not necessarily as often as we add Incarnate Trials. This includes adding more abilities to any individual slot as well as growing up the tree - one of the great things about the Incarnate System is that you can swap between multiple abilities for any Incarnate slot, and we want to give you more choices to use in more situations, there won't always be a single "best" choice when it comes to an Incarnate Ability. We will also introduce new Incarnate Trees in the distant future to broaden your choices.
We know that there are players who are looking for alternative ways to experience the Incarnate System, especially options that are more accessible to solo players and small groups. We are looking into this for a future issue, and we want it to be added in a meaningful way that augments the epic Incarnate storyline and still remains accessible to our more casual players. Group-oriented play remains an important part of the CoH experience but we understand that not everyone likes to play in a group, and we will endeavor to take this into consideration in future development decisions.
Additionally we will introduce content that is not directly Incarnate-related; we will wrap up some old plotlines and expand on others. In the next Issue (21), we will be featuring an entire new zone with lots of things to do, both solo and in a group. We aren't abandoning the independent spirit many of our players have. The zone will not only have new story arcs and contacts, but a very unique zone event that significantly links it to the greater storyline of the world.
Though when you mentioned an alternative path for the incarnate system that will be more "accessible" to the solo/small teamer, does that mean it won't be something that'll take a very long time compared to the trial way? Since it sounds like you were intending for people to acquire not just 1 power in each slot but 2 or perhaps all of it, that would take an even more extreme amount of time. It's not as crucial now, but does that also mean that in future content, it might be needed for players to swap between powers within each incarnate slot? -
Quote:I sort of feel about that the same way i feel about a big sale on an item i wasn't intending to buy.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem with that outlook is that it effectively values the actual very rare drop itself as being zero. In other words, you get a VR, you pick X, turns out you needed Y, so now that drop is costing you 150 threads. So downgrade it to a rare if that 150 threads is a high cost. You should be able to do that for nothing. Oh, but then you'd be throwing away a very valuable component.
So how much more valuable is that VR relative to 150 threads? I'd contend its massively more valuable.
If i buy it i will save money, but if i wasn't going to buy it in the first place, then it feels like it's costing me additional money instead.
If someone doesn't have the 150 threads for that conversion, it's more likely that they'll keep repeating the trials to earn them or take their chance on another VR roll rather than breaking down that VR then convert up.
Which makes me think the main point is like the main point of the conversion system...do more trials. -
Quote:Longer unspoken version:
PCG: If you could summarize the average players feedback on the patch so far, what would it be?
NB: We want more Incarnate Trials!
NB: We want more Incarnate Trials because not everyone wants to grind only 2 missions dozens of times per character and the alternative way takes unreasonably long!"
Heh, yeah it reads like the usual marketing flufff but it's interesting he mentioned his home server is Virtue. If his game experience is predominantly coming from playing in the highest populated server and not the other 9 almost equally lower pop servers, not sure how i feel about that yet. -
Quote:Heh i guess not needing to count the number of shards required in astronomical units of measure is a good thing.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One year of an ITF a day sounds like a lot of play, and it is. On the other hand, its not an astronomical level of effort, and its not entirely absurd considering that's the level of activity necessary to match the fact I got four rare drops in four days running trials, valuing those drops at their maximum value.
Though to get parity of rewards from 4 days of trials it'll take a year of ITFs and even much longer through non tf/trial content, to me, does seem absurd considering this is for a single character and assuming people actually play 7 days a week 52 weeks a year.
But as you said, opinions vary. -
Quote:That's interesting. When i think of people who left (no specific individuals since reasons vary) because of lack of end game (years past not recently), it always makes me think that there were more factors that came to play in that decision. Meaning, even though they technically can keep playing their 50, the existing game was no longer enough to maintain their interest to keep doing that.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, my specific intent was to say that this specific implementation was almost certainly going to appeal to at least some percentage of the people who left earlier, and would have stayed for it had it arrived in time.
So to me, the current implementation of end game might attract them but not so sure it's enough to keep them.
By end game i'm mostly referring to the trials...the incarnate slots are part of it but that's the reward for the end game...the method to achieve those rewards is where the "game" part comes in. And that part is two trials...let's say even four trials for reasonable progress...so i'm not quite sure how long that's going to keep them occupied when considering how long it seemingly taking to put these out...about 9 months since GR and possibly the same amount of time for the rest.
Then again this is all academic anyway since there's no clear numbers we can point to and people who didn't come back can't exactly chime in. -
Quote:That's a bit off from what i was referring to but i suppose that would depend on which people you're talking about. If it's those who enjoy farming for rewards, probably not much since what they enjoy is seeing a number go up (inf/prest/xp/merits etc.) or getting a vast payout and they can and have made that happen with anything.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And if the devs gave us nothing at all, how quickly do you think THAT would piss people off?
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Quote:It might be more fair to say there were people in the past that might have stuck around if AN end game showed up eariler. We won't really know if this particular implementation of an end game is what could make those people stay.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There were people who canceled in the past that would have stuck around if this end game had shown up earlier.
And yes people subscribe and unsubscribe during CoX's existence and we don't know the exact number and frequency of either occurence, though the older the game gets, getting people to come back or getting completely new people in gets harder.
Keeping as many people happy and paying is always the goal since less revenue doesn't affect the people who leave, just the people who stay...affected in terms of quantity and frequency of future content development. Even if people come back after some months...that's still lost revenue between resubs.
And so far in recent forum flare ups not just on this subject, it appears discontent is becoming readily apparent. Not sure how the amount of repetition of these trials would affect player burnout yet...too early. -
Quote:Only the upper 2 level shifts are restricted to trials, all other bonuses/powers works everywhere else.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
They were designed for the content, rewarded by the content, and provide bonuses only available for that content.
Maybe that's the disconnect. You view these as trial only bonuses while others view the incarnate levels/slots as akin to a new powerset you can use in content of your choosing.
Maybe some people's difference comes down to perception of the system maybe? But to me, just like actual powersets, i consider the incarnate slots general content (as opposed to story/lore content) meaning it's something people can do in-game to extend their gaming enjoyment of new and even existing content.
I know i can go through the same content i've gone through before with renewed enthusiasm simply because i'm using new powersets to go through them.
That got me curious.
As the saying goes, walk a mile in another person's shoes so...what if instead of trying to get the devs to reduce the disparity between trial and non-trial payouts by lowering the shard conversion method...they instead increased the trial payouts to closer match the non-trial one.
Such as...if it takes 2.7 years to get everything for non-trial, make the trial payouts for the same thing take 1.5 years. Trials would still be faster but the complaints might double i think hehe. -
Quote:There might be another thing about that worth looking into.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One more thing: counting optimally for the trial drops adds an additional skew. I've been getting the majority of my reward tables as uncommons, not commons. If uncommon really is more likely than common on successful runs, which is possible, the uncommons are actually *hurting* earnings, because if you need commons you cannot count uncommons as their *creation* value, but rather their *breakdown* value. And every uncommon is actually only worth 9 threads on average when broken down - less than half of one common.
Even though which end reward table (rarity) you get at the end is random, it might still be faster, consider everything else about the trials and it's duration, to wait and keep rolling and eventually save yourself the breakdown/creation cost, than to earn enough shards to get the equivalent using the same timeframe. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Basically it's not confirmed from Posi himself but everyone reckons that the reason for the change in salvage was to stop people who had horded shards/notices/favours from blitzing through the system on day 1 and coming out with very rares.
It didn't actually work though since it didn't really slow people down
Maybe it wasn't just to ward off the hoarders. The devs seem to like solutions that cover multiple issues and hoarding might just be one but not the entire reason.
And yes, if the new currency is solely to hamper the hoarders, then probably should expect new currency with the next 2 trials since the current 2 makes it very easy to amass a stockpile of threads long before they put out the new stuff. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Liquid
Trial content reward equivalent: 1815 Threads
Non-Trial content, for equivalent time: 18 Threads
That's the equivalent of 100 times more Threads for running trials, and I didn't even include the slot unlocks (I unlocked all 4, so that would be the equivalent of another 150 Threads). Obviously, there was some luck involved here-- I did get 2 rares, but even if those were commons (I actually found uncommons to be the most common-- I only got one common drop), the difference would be staggering.
In conclusion: Yeah, your mileage may vary, but let's stop using the "5 times as long" value. It's closer to 100. It would have taken me 100 weeks to do what I did last week if I tried to use the Shard conversion to do it, and that's assuming that same level of activity on a full team for the full 100 weeks, never playing another character. That's almost 2 years.
Which is why there's been many complaints...not just in the conversion method but also of players being compelled to do the trials who normally wouldn't.
The shard conversion method (to me) is not so much an alternative path to the trials but more an incentive to DO the trials over other content.
And when people who normally would do a variety of things to progress, suddenly gets stuck doing 2, then they get a form of culture shock. It might even hasten burnout and not just in the trials but the game overall, but that's an unknown this early in.
If the shard conversion payouts is more in line with the trials, i'm thinking the trials wouldn't be as active as it would be once the new shiny wears off. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arilou
I should note that most of these threads are from Astral Merit conversions, with a couple extra threads thrown from drops, and then I think you get a small number for actually completing one.
Sorry if this becomes annoying...just a bit more info maybe.
If you have to hazard a guess...(breaking down random component drops and merits into threads) how many threads per hour do you think you averaged?
Rough estimate is fine.
EDIT: Oops...by breakdown i don't mean using the breakdown conversion...i mean equivalent threads for the component...ie: to craft a common component needs 20 threads. -
Quote:Thanks for the info. Just needed a better frame of reference than 3 days so i can know what to expect. Like how many hours in those days and/or how many trials in those hours...but 20 threads a run is a good reference point.Originally Posted by Arilou
I'm not quite there yet (I lack some 40 threads due to the shutdown of the servers) but once I'd gotten the hang of the thing I was usually getting 20+ threads per run. (more if I got lucky on the rolls)
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Quote:If i counted correctly, i think it takes 540 threads to make a rare, unless you used a lot of empyrean merits. How many times did you do the trial to get those?Originally Posted by Arilou
Honestly, there's not much grinding involved in this. I'd have gotten my Rare Destiny slot in less than three days were it not for the maintainance thing.
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Quote:What makes you think i don't team? For 6 years of the 7 i've been here, i've been duo'ing with a friend i met in CoV. Lately because of the shards, we've been playing at x6 difficulty.Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
That's true if you never team.
And i can be a patient person in case you were wondering. The reason i've been duo'ing with my friend (aside from enjoying the company) we've been building our own personal bases essentially. Have 6 now...3 on each side. -
Quote:Recently, i've been making note of how many shards i get per game session and i'm averaging about 1 shard per in-game hour. Not 1 shard every hour just average...some hours i get nothing. I think Arcanaville has a post with about the same average, have to look for it to confirm.Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
It's pretty easy to get 6 shards a day, which means it takes approximately 10 days to get 60 shards
So to get an uncommon that needs 160 threads (and using the time-gated 10:10 ratio)...initial guess would take me about that many in-game hours maybe less if i get lucky along the way. As reference, i have a level 50 character with only about 130 hours in it.
So playing the way i enjoy...getting 1 uncommon from 1 slot for 1 character would take about the same time as getting a new character from 1-50.
Maybe the RNG just likes you more than me which is good for you but eh...your situation doesn't really help my enjoyment though. -
Quote:Options are good. Reasonable options that doesn't require huge teams or huge time investment measured in years would be better.Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Wise man once say, "Variety is the spice of life." Loud CM once say, "Options are good!"
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Quote:So was my version...it just mentions it'll take them awhile till it happens. 2-3 issues a year average is their speed and they still have half the incarnate slots probably more tiers to some of those slots in queue.Originally Posted by Furio
Except that in my version, the firemen are already working on putting out the fire....much like the devs are already working on new content.
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Quote:Sorry if it wasn't clear, but when i said "think of them as a survey" i was trying to demonstrate that even the least detailed feedback can still be useful if only as a tally.Originally Posted by Lothic
Just keep in mind that the idea of "forum posting as customer survey tool" can only go so far. It's been commonly accepted for years that maybe only about 5-10% of the playerbase even reads these forums much less posts to them. The voices of we, the "vocal minority", can only be counted as far or as little as the Devs want.
Yes, not everyone posts on the forums. It's likely more people read the forums than actually post in them but still is not everyone. But it is still a source of feedback from the playbase. The devs have datamining tools to show what players are doing but not why they're doing it. You can't datamine player intent, you just have to ask and short of the exit survey when they cancel an account (which to me is a bit late) the forums is the only other place to get that. -
Quote:If the post literally only has the words "i20 bleh, want more NAO" then yes that might not be as useful as it could be but still is...if you think of posts as surveys (which is what the forums essentially are) then that's one check on the unsatisfactory column. If there's a whole bunch of checks on that column then it would seem the feature list of i20 is too focused on a small segment of the playerbase and maybe next issue they need to add something else besides 2 trials.Originally Posted by Lothic
Provide some details as to what you might want. The Devs might respond to that.
Simply whine that there's not enough to do right now? What's the point?
Though most of the feedback i see actually has more detail than that though.
Like i said, of course more detail is preferable but short of troll posts, there can be some use for all opinions. It's not up to us to decide which ones the devs should listen to. -
Quote:Feedback doesn't necessarily become a futile complaint just because there's no change to be expected. Some feedback can be carried over to whatever they may have planned in the future not just in the present.Originally Posted by Lothic
Basically trying to claim your "helpful feedback" on this is really anything more than futile complaining is, well, pretty futile.
Even if it's the same message but there's numerous players saying it can be useful. If only one shows an issue...it might not be considered a priority. If there's a significant number expressing the same issue, then maybe that merits more investigation.
It's not up to players to decide what is helpful and what isn't. Just speak your mind and let the community reps filter them out to the devs. They're paid to do that. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Furio
"The house is on fire!"
"Yes, we know, that's why we firemen are here, with these pump trucks and hoses."
"No! You don't understand!! THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!"
"..."
"The house is on fire!"
"Yes, we know, that's why the firemen are on their way...might take a year though. Just hang in there."
"No! You don't understand!! THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!"
"..."
Heh, i normally dislike analogies but that just popped in my head. -
Quote:Gives the players some busy work till they come up with actual content maybe? Probably won't know the real reason, though i got the impression they're sort of "winging it" for lack of a better term. They release the alpha slot with only half the tiers...maybe to see what people do with the shards that has no time limit to acquire. Then they released the upper alpha tiers with a weekly time-gate on some components. Then there were an outcry about that. And now we see the next incarnate slots with a new requirement with no time limit to acquire but only two places to get them.Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
If the above is true then it appears that we have been encouraged to repeat the same content over and over again collecting shards for the last two issues for what reason?
Hoarding is a problem but if that's their main issue, then the devs are making it easier for people to hoard the new thread currency since it apparently has a higher drop rate than shards. So once the farm teams take over the trials, there'll be people hoarding threads. *shrug*
*EDIT: Changed lower drop rate of threads...meant higher. -
Quote:Heh, i agree. Players don't often change their gaming preferences to suit a game, they find a game that suits their preferences. Compelling people to do something they don't enjoy tends to result in resentment over the long run.Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I would prefer to do none of the trials, and be able to acquire the new slots by completing the missions and task forces I like to play, rather than having to compete in trials I don't like to play.