Oedipus_Tex

Sorry guys, I can't support this change if I understand what is being proposed.

I for one am not excited that for 9 of 12 Defender and Corruptor sets, your build now requires Kismet and Tactics. For 2 sets (Psy and Dark) you don't even get Aim, so this is your only avenue. Some people are going to nitpick on the word "requires." I guess you arent "required" to take T3 blasts, mezz shields, basic armors, Hasten, or old Stamina either, but not doing so often has a detrimental impact.

Again maybe I missed something. I don't want to be Chicken Little. But I think this change breaks many more things than it fixes.

From what I see of it, the change itself is not complex. It's basically "In what circumstances do we let characters have access to a new powerful attack?" Well the answer to that is "always" if you are a Defender or Corruptor but only if you build yourself like a cookie cutter.

Like I said in the other thread, why would you want to play a terrible set like Devices when you could roll Traps Corruptor (or any Corruptor) and still get that Device's supposed benefits? Please tell me what I've missed (serious request, not being facetious).

Corruptors.

I hate to be the voice of alarm, but if I understand what is proposed, this is just a straight-up buff to Corruptor single-target damage. I am hoping I missed something in the conversations, because this proposal leaves me confused.

Not to be too hypberolic, but why in the world would you want to play a terrible set like Devices when you go Traps Corruptor and still pick up the one main advantage that Devices supposedly brings?

So all Corruptors and Defenders with a Snipe are now, essentially, forced into taking Leadership pool, and also get a reliable new blast power that Blasters can only reach if they accept the gimp of Devices. This is balanced how, exactly? From what I can see, it breaks Defenders, it breaks Corruptors, and it breaks Blasters relative to those 2 ATs. I appreciate the developers wanting to improve Snipes but I can't stand by this change. I just hope there is something I don't understand or have missed about it to allay my concerns.

How "hard" is is it exactly to get this benefit on a Corruptor? Well, observe below. Is this REALLY what we want everyone forced to be specced into? Really? Because I recall a power called "Stamina" that used to live in an "optional" pool that looked really similar to this.


Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.956
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 49 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Leadership
Villain Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 2: [Empty]
Level 4: Maneuvers -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 6: [Empty]
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: [Empty]
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Tactics -- ToHit-I(A), ToHit-I(15), ToHit-I(15), ToHit-I(19)
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 4: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

Stipulation: I didn't actually read the thread. But here's how I'd basically rank them, assuming moderate IOs, level 50, with the incarnate damage proc. Keep in mind these ranks are extremely conditional.


1) Plant
Roots and Creepers, mainly. Roots does insane damage. Creepers beats out Fire Imps for me mainly because it can't die. I'm also assuming we can include Confusion effects.

2) Fire
Very high damage, hard to rank versus Plant. Fire Imps are fragile and tend to die a lot, which limits some of their potential.


3) Dark
The damage in the caster's powers themselves aren't that great, but the pet hits like a truck and has a massive cone. Extra damage from the Spooks helps some but not tons.


4) Gravity
A bit better since it's revamp, but mainly single target. Confession: I haven't used the pet myself, because I stopped playing this set before finishing to 50. But from what I see of it, it appears to be quite far behind the Dark pet. Propel hits hard and in single target damage this set might be okay.


5) Electric
Middle of the road.


6) Earth
Mainly ahead of Ice because of proc damage in Volcanic Gasses.


7) Ice
At least it has an AoE immobilize to deliver proc damage and set Containment. Using it is kind of counter productive for control, but it's something. Post-buff-Jack Frost actually gives the Earth pet a run for its money in the survivability department, but the pet can't dish damage like the Dark pet can.


8) Illusion
The whole world is probably going "WTH?! Illusion is leet?!" Well, it is. But its damage is mostly all single target, and I'm close to 100% certain with similar build investment that sets with AoE immobilizes that bother to chase AoE damage can outperform it in general assuming they don't die. This set is so odd that it's practically its own AT. Great for what it is, not really in the running otherwise. Probably still somewhat overpowered despite being #8 on my list here. I might have given this a higher ranking prior to Lore pets but that's harder for me to justify now.

9) Mind
The pits. Strike 1: You lack a way to set easy Containment. Strike 2: You lack the ability to deliver incarnate proc damage over a 30ft area every few seconds. Strike 3: No pets to make up for it. Strike 4: Extremely long recharge on powers that supposedly make up for it. Strike 5: Youre dealing psi damage, which enemies are notorious for resisting. Strike 6: The incarnate proc actually cancels out what Containment you might get from sleeps, and makes the mez in Mesmerize quit working. I used to enjoy my Mind Controller, but after Dark came out I rerolled him and haven't looked back.

ATs with the highest number of unique sets get the fewest of them. A melee set is shared among 4 ATs, Blasts with 3, Buff with 4, Assault with 1. Divide any set by the number of ATs it's shared with and Dominators are in first place, with 8 sets all to themselves.

Unfair? Well, it's also not "fair" that some ATs get sets all to themselves, either. Why should Dominators get as much development time to themselves as 3 or 4 entire ATs do? It just is what it is. At least be glad Dominators are a fanastic AT and well worth playing.

Should have added this IMO: IMO, the way to handle this is to create an new IO set for Snipes and have that change how the power works, instead of trying to set it up in this way with +ToHit, which I'm going to be pessimistic about and say will never be balanced--in fact for Defender and Corruptors, I think what's being created here is the new-old-Stamina. Then whatever flag you use in that IO set, stick it in Devices, Aim, and Build Up.

EDIT: Sorry to keep babbling, but in reference to my statement earlier that I really think range for blasts should be a Blaster advantage, I'm surprised no onehas already mentioned that in most cases giving all blast sets more range benefits Defenders and Corruptors over Blasters, because most of their secondaries don't push them toward melee or blapping. There are a few exceptions but I very strongly feel that part of the buff belongs to Blasters and Blasters only, both because I want reasons to roll Blasters, and because these changes seem to play (apparently, unintentional) havoc with Defender and Corruptor builds. Not to mention, I'd be more interested in playing the same blast sets multiple times on different ATs if there were some differences in the sets besides just damage and secondary effect modifiers. I wish range, radius, cone width, etc was more open to adjustment. Note that Range is different in one set, Psychic Blast, which was nerfed from 100ft range to 80ft during the Blaster port from Defenders.

Actually the more I look at various actual powersets, the more concerned I am getting about both the range tweak and the +ToHit-for-fast-snipe tweak. Corruptor Psy Blast and Dark Blast, for example, don't even have Aim or Build Up, so pretty much for them they never get this advantage until they buy IOs and get Tactics, and then they have it all the time. I am not personally convinced by arguments about inspirations making up the difference any more than I do that inspirations made up the difference between armored and armored characters or characters with and without mezz protection. I just don't think this system works.

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I appreciate you taking time to hold a dialog with us.

I like what you've done with the Blaster PBAoE toggles. Those powers have always been rather suspect to me.

I apologize if the following is too critical and I hae failed to see something: I have to confess I'm not a fan of having a magic number that unlocks instant-sniping. I just don't think it works. It's going to send too many Defender and Corruptor builds scurrying for Tactics. I may hae missed something in the thread that changed things, but with this change Tactics will now be a required power for any Corruptor or Defender build with a Snipe who doesn't happen to be a Time Manipulator.

I would personally even vote to just give Blasters a straight blast that completely replaces the snipe, everyone else keeps the snipe and it's made useful in some other way. The +22% hit requirement makes builds significantly less interesting to me. Worse yet, Kismet is an IO that goes in a defense power. If there is any trend I think that does not need reinforcing, it's squishy builds pushed into taking defense powers because of how they synergize with Recharge (thanks to the Luck of the Gambler). Now we're throwing ToHit onto that. Kismet was already a pretty useful IO but this makes it essentially mandatory for any build that is een semi-serious.

Regarding +Range to powers, I think thats ok but I would personally vote that that change should apply to the Blaster version ONLY. I say this as someone who only really plays Dominators and Corruptors with any level of seriousness. Give me a reason to want to play Blasters. My Corruptors and especially my Dominators do not need that buff. Note that by boosting sets like Fire Blast on a Corruptor you are defacto eliminating the small advantage Psychic Blast has, because one of the very few advantages of that set is its range.

Overall, most of these changes seem to reinforce for me, rather than eliminate, reasons I tend to avoid Blasters in the first place. Perhaps I am missing someting in this thread, but I just am not seeing how they come out ahead. It seems to put Corruptors significantly ahead and increase the range of my Dominators, who in some cases were rolled in place of Blasters. I don't think either Corruptors or Dominators need these buffs at all. (Defenders might, but IMO what they really need is something toset them apart from Corruptors.)

I'm not a fan of this proposed change either. Major win for Corruptors, would be a win for Defenders except Corruptors exist and this is just another way for Corruptors to continue outdamaging them, unremarkable for Dominators (who need neither the boost nor another mechanic that becomes perma once you get your end game build), not that great for Blasters. I'm glad to hear they are thinking about snipes, but I don't agree with the proposed change.

It's also nice that they are thinking about Devices. But I would be much happier if we just said Blasters don't get snipes, that's a Defender/Corruptor thing, and what Blasters have is just a really hard hitting fast casting blast that happens to occupy the same slot.

In terms of the snipes, I just feel like there are too many problems being fixed in one glut.

We're trying to buff Blasters, make snipes desirable to all ATs, make Defenders appear to have a reason to exist, and make Devices have a purpose, all in one move. But it seems to me like the changes are really mainly buffing Fire Blast Corruptors and whatever sets were already the best. I think some of it needs to be untangled.

The To-Hit bonus trigger is what is particularly troubling to me. It actually reminds of how perma-Domination works, where the with and without states are really binary and very build dependant.

On a sidenote, I think we also need just to finally admit the Defender AT is in a state that is easily as desperate as Blasters--or perhaps more accurately, Stalkers relative to Scrappers prior to their buff. Their problem isn't "performance" or an inability to perform, it's that the AT has a direct but mostly superior clone AT in Corruptors. I'm not really concerned with whether the Defender AT has a reason to pick snipes because in my mind the Defender AT could be deleted with almost no repercussions to the game. I only bring this up because I think a slightly easier time making snipes perma-uninteruptable via ToHit is as equally a dubious bonus as the mild +defense and other values that supposedly justify this ATs existence.

The nutshell of that paragraph above is that I don't really care whether this change benefits Defenders a whole lot, because the Defender AT isn't that great at defending or even really existing, and should be getting their own versions of some powers to correct that rather than trying to shoehorn them in with a global change.

I like some of the proposed changes more than others. Here are a few assorted thoughts. Sorry if it seems to critical--low on time to type a response.


I don't like +ToHit as a demarker. It is much easier to get always-on +ToHit as a Defender or Corruptor than as a Blaster. As has been pointed out, the primary source of always-on ToHit is the Tactics power in the Leadership pool. This really seems to force the hand of most players into taking Tactics.

Adding range to some sets hurts others by comparison. The extra range in Defender and Corruptor Psychic Blast is its only real draw next to much more damaging, faster casting-powers in other sets. Previously Psi Blast had a 60ft range lead over Fire and Ice when firing its best standard blasts; that's now dropped to just 20ft. Archery is matched 1 for 1. That's a really harsh change and I doubt if I will be continuing my Psi Blast Corruptor, who was rolled precisely because he got extra range. Archery might survive on the strength of Rain of Arrows.

This isn't to say they shouldn't still give other sets range, but this doesn't improve Psi's (or Archery's) standing. It does mean you could maybe use the insane 160ft or whatever snipe more freely, but you're basically back where you were before with other sets, able to shoot from far away but not actually follow through with an attack chain or real purpose.

Giving Defenders a reason to pick something other than Sonic Attack is a good outcome of the changes. It's probably a good thing that Sonic Attack on Defenders (and maybe Corruptors) gets less of a boost, considering how one Defender blast set is far superior to the actual buff and debuff sets at delivering one of the most desirable debuffs in the game, on a class that specializes in buffs and debuffs.

For me, it's Force Field. I think Force Field is the most iconic of the buff/debuff sets, and its a shame its not stronger than it is. I'm hoping Force Field picks up some of the Absorb mechanics from Bio Armor and that its enemy effecting powers become more worthwhile of a set that has 5 of them (the same number as Cold and Time, sets that are never mistaken for pure buff setslike FF is just because its "debuffs" are awful).

Of the remaining buff/debuff sets: Trick Arrow, Poison, and Sonic Resonance.

Blaster secondaries across the board aren't that great. Hopefully that is handled somewhat in the Blaster revamp. Devices specifically is in a dire place. There should also be some reason Blasters get 8ft radius PBAoE toggles, which are currently just weird.

I like this. I'm not crazy about the recent trend for "stacking" powersets, but visually I can see a "Cosmic" set filling the animation void where Magic Missile and "arcane blasts" often go. A recent game that is a cousin of the 800lb gorilla has a blast power that looks like you are throwing a small, rotating solar system that might visually set the tone. I picture a default color scheme of purples and yellows.

Where Blasters really get sort of worked over is in the APPs.

If you look at several ATs before they get their APPs, they really don't compete well with Blasters in the damage department overall. Most Controllers don't even have a Tier 2 blast, and none has an actual AoE blast unless you count stuff like Tornado and Oil Slick Arrow. No Dominator has a ranged, radial blast a la Fireball. Brutes don't have Mu Mastery. Scrappers don't have Fireball.

As much as they contribute to APPs, you'd expect Blasters to get more back from other ATs. But they really don't. They get a fairly standard issue squishy armor, a modest single target hold, and so on, and almost across the board with values less favorable than other ATs. The APPs could have been the opportunity to address a lot of issues for the AT, but didn't really succeed at that.

I don't agree with the characterization of Defenders as a highly functional AT earlier in this thread. Outside of Sonic Attack the Defender AT might as well not exist. The AT has a direct clone that outperforms it in nearly every way. I'm pretty tolerant of low-ish performance, but when one AT is a direct copy of another except mostly just worse it raises my eyebrows. Defenders and Corruptors even share the same APPs and PPPs. Something really needs to happen to seperate those 2 ATs. Even if Blasters have more trouble overall at least there isn't a direct clone of them or any need to ask the question "Defender or Corruptor?" (with the answer almost always being Corruptor).

Having to fish for Defender advantages, like marginally better healing or shielding values or the ability to soft cap somewhat easier (but still not really easily in most cases) just leaves the AT looking silly. It would be fine if Corruptors didn't exist... but they do.

I always feel a bit alienated by these threads. The assumptions about viewer experience seem to be somewhat one-track. Like Arcana said earlier (paraphrasing) there don't seem to be a lot of balanced opinions on the topic.

There is a tendency in this sort of discussion, both here and on other websites, to talk about the unfairness of the poses. It's implied by some sites that equal treatment would be men posed in the same way.

But it turns out we have a really good idea of what men look like when they are sexualized that bypasses many of the assertions of this discussion, because there is an entire genre of material aimed squarely at gay and bisexual men. The poses used there are somewhat more suggestie, but critically they are not remotely identical to what is presented as hyper-feminity in comic and superhero art. In terms of the aesthetics of the models themselves, I challenge anyone to show that rock hard abs are not a staple of this type of literature. In fact, I challenge them to show it's not a staple of literature featuring gay and bisexual men that is written primarily for women.

Beyond this, I'm willing to accept various female poses because it's art. Some drawings are better than others, but I'm willing to accept unusual body shapes for the same reason I'm willing to accept the artistic choice to outline everyone in black lines rather than draw photorealistic shadows. To me it's actually more challenging to draw a picture that establishes heroic themes than it is to just mimic anatomy.

So... when are we getting Water Control, Assault, Buff, and Manipulation? Because that looks incredible.

Some people were saying that the +Level Shift ability has a cap of 16 targets and possibly affects pets, who essentially "steal" from a player who would have gotten the buff. Were there a lot of pets on the Freedom run?