OPTICAL_ILLUSION

Originally Posted by ConFlict

That the badgers find out there is unusable pvp content before we do. And not only that they get told specifically that it will be brought up internally.


http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=220004

Originally Posted by Tokyo

Tell me you sent this to her private inbox. This was awesome.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

Okay.

I don't even consider myself to be part of the PvP community at large and I have to agree with one thing:

The PvPers have been screwed repeatedly in this game solely for the benefit of the PvE community.

The I13 changes that completely changed PvP. Were those chages made to benefit the PvPers? Not. Even. Close.

A dev actually responded (it was Lighthouse, and he was reprimanded for it) to a question, saying "We didn't do it for you" (referring to the PvPers)

They completely gutted the PvP mechanics of the game so the PvE players wouldn't feel like they were at so much of a disadvantage.

They did that for YOU. The people who STILL constantly complain about the PvPers ruining their easy peasy reward system by having the audacity to attack someone in the only zones they are ALLOWED to.

PvP was completely changed for the benefit of a completely ungrateful subsection of people. The PvPers complained (rightfully so) that they were being screwed (a dev even more or less admitted it), and it fell on completely deaf ears.

But that wasn't good enough, was it? NOOOOOOOO, now the anti-PvP crowd wants their rewards with no risk of even having to deal with the very thing that was altered solely for their benefit.

Put in that perspective, can you understand why the PvPers might be a little miffed? The part of the game they enjoy was watered down to the point it doesn't even resemble the rest of the game, for the benefit of a group of people that want even more to be taken away from them, and will never use the system that was changed JUST for them.

Originally Posted by Antigonus

Sadly, it wasn't just as simple as being ignored. In some cases the changes moved in the complete opposite direction of what was asked.

That's not disregard for the player base. That's a slap in the face. That's as clear a "**** you" message as could possible be sent.

Originally Posted by PuceNonagon

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Optical-Illusion.

I think people who attack afkers confuse what they "can" do with what they "should" or are "supposed" to do.

The devs never said that you must mindlessly attack everything in a PvP zone. There are plenty of times when you prep for battle and lay out boundaries and set parameters. If two PvPers preparing for battle were discussing terms and one suddenly jumped the other guy when he said he had to get a drink for a second before the fight, that wouldn't be what the player "should" do. Sure, they "can" do it, but for social reasons, they don't. Usually. And you surely wouldn't say that they guy who beat up his opponent while he was afk for a second pre-fight was "PvPing". That's griefing, in my book.

For that same reason, I don't attack afkers. If someone wants to fight me, I'm game to go at it. Or not. But, on the other hand, if I happen to be afk, I don't get angry at the guy that attacks me. The zone is set up for PvP and if I go there I'm opening myself up to all sorts of things like that.

I see PvP as Player versus Player, Not Player versus Non-Player. Attacking someone who isn't fighting back is, as I said before, "farming."

Originally Posted by PuceNonagon

I agree that anyone in a PvP zone is fair game to be attacked. If you don't want to open yourself up for attack, then stay out. Don't get angry when someone ganks you.."

Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo

The vast majority of COX players ignore the PvP zones entirely, and never even enter them. The ones who never enter the PvP zones have made their feelings about being in a PvP environment abundantly clear. Of those who enter the PvP zones, many do so only to get rewards for PvE purposes, and being attacked by PvPers is nothing more than a hindrance to them, a potential source of delay and irritation.

These observations lead me to ask a few questions:

1. Why should the devs continue to spend large amounts of resources on what amounts to a niche activity, one that has obviously, and repeatedly, been rejected as "not fun" by the vast majority of COX players?

2. Given that the customer base is pretty much the same now as one year ago, why are all of us still being pestered by PvP contacts repeatedly with every alt we make? Why does the response "I've already said many times that I won't go out on a date with you, so would you stop pestering me already" not elicit an empathetic response from the devs?

3. Who is it who has the misplaced sense of entitlement here?

I'll go ahead and answer the 3rd question. The near microscopic, but extremely vocal community engaging in PvP has no business trying to continue to tie access to certain PvE rewards to entering PvP zones, not when about 95% to 98% of the community has voted with their feet on having that kind of experience. If those rewards can in some way add to the fun of those who have repeatedly demonstrated, over the years, that they would rather chew off their own arm than enter a PvP zone, then re-balance the difficulty/risk/reward ratio for those PvE goodies currently available only in PvP zones, as appropriate, and spread the love around.

On a related point, those who engage in PvP are not the least bit shy about asking for a multitude of changes to the game, regarding a host of issues. And yet, curiously, about the issue being debated in this thread, the intent and design choices of the devs should be regarded as sacrosanct; those who disagree with that line of reasoning are being represented as adopting an a priori illegitimate position because of decisions made years ago, decisions that didn't have the desired effect of making PvP more popular--in fact, I would argue they had the opposite effect--and that promote conflict and ill will between players.

Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo

The impasse in this thread mirrors the impasse created in the PvP zones by pitting players with PvE objectives and players with PvP objectives against each other.

This self-reinforcing circle of mutual frustration will be resolved when the devs finally remove PvE content from the PvP zones, or make PvE rewards currently available only in the PvP zones also available through purely PvE means (rebalancing for difficulty versus the level of reward provided, as appropriate).

/thread

Originally Posted by Dahjee

True Indeed, they do not fully. They do however provide a foundation on which to build upon or base "Success/Failure" on. If you have a desire to change something for PvP for a particular AT... I promise that emphasizing these decripstions' contradictions will help more so than random PvP wants and hopes based on emotions or what you see currently.



Um. Yes I can. Devs don't tell us what or how to play... Other players do. Once they convince us that they know what they're talking about. Bad players fall for anything they say. Even good Players recommend out of a biased and skewed perception that is far too often based on lolserious arena PvP, where players have the luxury of actually Picking who they want to PvP with.



Despite the reduction in effectiveness all ATs still retain their niche. Example: Defenders are weaker than most as offensive PvPers, yet they do indeed still provde the highest numbers for support, and yes they can easily be made farm targets if no one is willing to look after their heavily sought HP bar. This is easily comparable to PvE. Sonic/ and Cold/ for example offer DR'ed buffs far below those cataloged Pre-I13, but those DR'ed buffs are higher than any Troller or Corr can acheive. In a team, keeping your defender alive can be critical once you realize how to get the most out of it's specific purpose.... ignoring a particular defender's purpose is comparable to noobs that can only survive with a healzor at their side in PvE.

Scrappers and Blasters and Stalkers retain their primary roles in PvP to the "T." Their appeal to PvP newbs and PvP noobs is no different than in PvE either. The appeal stems from a basic independancy to get a kill. Obviously the promotion and advertising of these ATs and their designed roles attract bad players to take the easy route... since the easy route atm is anythng that leads to an easy kill, more rep, and/or more dropped IOs.

You all can read these descriptions the same as me... I want to avod another TL: DR post. so I will elaborate on other ATs if prompted.
The overall point is that stenghths and weaknesses weren't erased but forgotten or ignored... even made to seem non-existent in order to justify a "uselessnes" label by the community.




Think closely about building a TF/SF at 3am in the morning.... Sure you got peeps that want to join.... but what do you Need??? More Aggro control? You need more damage? Perhaps more CC or heals... Maybe some -Regen or some other form of debuffing. Maybe even someone that can rez??? You may consider all of the above to be pointless in PvP considering the current ruleset but these roles are not useless. They are simply used less... In the absence of these roles we've created replacement/stacked roles to fill the part.

In PvP... just like in PvE... A smart leader will recognize a team's weaknesses and recruit accordinlgly, or to the best of their ability given what may be out there. (Zone PvP) They will adapt to what has become the team's strongest liabilty or strength and coach/lead the team accordingly. "Not -so -Smart" leaders seem to wait for copy/paste builds they've ben told are effective... these peeps usually quit or whine when their crutch fails to show up.



These (I13) changes helped by revealing to the community EXACTLY what each set could not make up for on it's own. This should of been a sign to seek out the set/set combos that would eliminate weaknesses and stregthen strengths within each powerst spoke of... but that didn't happen. Blind and Blatant avoidance of certain sets occurred and was encouraged. This phenomenon was not helpful to vets or newbies... nor was it 100% necessary post I13.



Simple.

I13 helped by making the Sets you speak of needed/required more for the survival of sets that require the unique attibutes from each set. If you truly build for slows they will work; Sacrafices to other aspects of PvP must be made though to make this purpose possible. If all else fails, then stacking what slows you have with another who has the same desired purpose takes priority.


WTF cares what was asked for. Your $15 dollars/Month goes to the people who make the game... deal with it or dwell on it I always say... live in the past or look towards the furtue is another way to put it.

Fact is that the introduction of IOs in I9 allowed many players to ignore the dependancies they had come to rely on... and I13 reinforced this menatlity. Personally, I feel this is more obvious on Blueside, but I've never felpt forcd by the devs to do anything.

The statement reffered to is based on Forum behavior and given advice. When a system is intoduced with the purpose of offering enjoyable PVP to the masses.... and the powers that influence actually encourage the playerbase to do the exact opposite... What can be said about the new system? How can change occur when it is quite obvious that adaptaon never occured.



I don't think anyone approved of all the changes...

Change is not matter of time nor need. It is a matter of "What it will take" for that change to occur. <--- Real Shi*T.



I won't go down that road.

To sum it up for you though.... Devs saw money in making PvP more appealing to PvErs... they looked for and sought ideas to get them (PvErs) involved.... made the mistake of asking too mny Serious PvPers what would work. ignored then and based changes on what would really help... and watched as disgruntled PvPers raged about how the changes didn;t helpthem get better. Close enogh I'm sure.





Nice edit: who are you talking about???



As pointed out earlier. You are confused and therefore likely to be a Robot.... dependant on another to tell you what to feel and think and say. I have yet to PvP with my /DP defender in RV. If possible... please encourage this poor Trapster you pseak of to holla at me via @Dahjee Global. It is obvious to me.. that he/she is doing it wrong.


TL;DR you say.....?

Perhaps it's better that way. Then again... you all asked for it, so keep it OP related and respond accoridingky if possible.

... or provide the standard "I hate Dahjee" post to cover for an inabilty to prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by macskull

It's bugged and the TP protection isn't working. It's been that way since I13, so the odds of it getting fixed anytime soon aren't all that good (unless someone can convince them to fix it with I17).

Originally Posted by Dahjee

I will answer them all if you are seriously wanting to know... but you aren't so it would be another tl:dr post by me that gets ignored completely and loses out to the ease and satisfaction of throwing insults and makin funnies.

Once you start to dumb a topic down... I grab my popcorn and prepare to make fools of your ignorance. If you can be objective... and maybe repress some of the emotional hurt and pain that I13 caused you... we can indeed have this conversation, and I will be more than happy to elaborate.

I will give you a hint though: the keyword is Dependancy.

Originally Posted by je_saist

exactly.

I've been over this before in multiple locations; here in the forums; on Gamenikki.com (still down as RawServe will not respond to emails or phone calls and the situation is turning ugly); and zerias.blogspot.com

The basic problem is that the PvE game is based on inherent imbalance. Each of the archtypes in the game is deliberately weak in some areas, and deliberately strong in other areas, which is to say they are inherently imbalanced. The imbalances drive the team-based combat of the PvE system where players should work together in order to over-come each other's weak spots. The need to balance the majority of the game content against a teaming experience is why the developers sometimes have to take drastic measures to halt a particular play-style or holy-grail goal that a segment of the player base pursues.

An inherently imbalanced game makes for a incredibly imbalanced PvP enviroment. If you look at all of the good multiplayer games, they are based on two basic design principles: At Some Level the players are equal :: Skill matters

The concept is most visible in first person shooters such Unreal Tournament, Quake, Prey, Doom, Far Cry / Crysis, and so on. All players start out with a basic weapon, and while they can gain over-powering weapons or armors, skill is still a factor. A player with a sniper rifle or a rail gun is dangerous at a distance... but enough armor or good enough use of cover, and that range advantage can disappear in a heartbeat.

Even when looking at the kings of mixed-combat play; Monolith's Aliens Versus Predator 2 and Verant's Planetside; the concept still held up.

AvP2 with only two players could be a decidedly unfair fight depending on what avatars the players controlled, whether or not class based weapons were in play, and whether or not alien life-cycle was on. However, AvP2 allowed players to adjust the scoring for each defeat... so that a face hugger dropping a marine with access to the smart gun awarded more points than the marine with the smart gun dropping the face hugger. The result was a multiplayer experience that could account for whether or not the actual combat was balanced.

In Planetside, there was a spot for everybody. Even if you weren't in the league of VT-Grumpy-Bunny or Fatal1ty when it came to FPS combat, you could still find something to do in Planetside, be it a medic, a driver, a pilot, an engineer, or a combat strategist calling out which targets to hit and planning the battles. Even then, the actual FPS combat was still balanced against each Empire having similar weapon classes, even though those weapon classes behaved in different manners. The Vanu were terrors in water-bound and vertical combat situations. The Terrans ruled in open-field combat and more traditional FPS combat. In close quarters combat though, it was the New Conglomerate that held the advantage. Despite all of the different combat factors, Planetside's core combat still came down to who had the better aim. Skill mattered. A cloaker could take out a max armor. A skeeter pilot could down a BRF.

***

So, in order for City of Heroes to work in a PvP enviroment, in order for it to provide good PvP, things have to be balanced. The PvE combat is not conducive to PvP play... and if the developers want to retain the aspect of City of Heroes were each archtype is supposed to give a different play experience, the PvE combat is never going to be conducive to PvP play.

The design goals are diametrically opposed.

***

This is complicated by the fact that the majority of players who participated in CoH PvP were not interested in good PvP play. They weren't interested in a balanced enviroment, and there stands a stark disconnect between the likes of Macskull and Conflict, and the actual development staff.

The PvPer's largely want OMGWTFBBQ, I GANKED U HARD IN THE @$$ IM AWSUM YU SUK MAH... I'm sure you can fill in the rest. Ergo, the PvPer's, or rather the vocal PvPer's on the forums, want an imbalanced enviroment similar to Ultima Online.

Well, thankfully, Castle and the rest of the development staff is smarter than that. Castle seems to have a handle on good PvP requiring that the PvP game be different from the PvE game. Issue 13 was a step in the right direction for where PvP play needs to go.

***

That being said, there are other over-riding factors. My own personal opinion is that PvP play would be best served by it's own separate game with it's own separate development staff. That's my opinion.

That also isn't likely. NCSoft got burned badly by Tabula Rasa, an Inherently Imbalanced PvE game like City of Heroes. Tabula Rasa quite literally blew up, putting a smoldering crater into NCSoft's financial reports, as it chased after a very vocal PvP minority. NCSoft and Destination Games found out the hardway that the available market of gamers willing to PAY for PvP content in a PvE game was a lot lower than the vocal minority had indicated.

The fallout from Tabula Rasa will probably continue to have a large impact on the future of City of Heroes. NCSoft is likely not going to authorize funds for developing any further PvP content in City of Heroes. Basically, that means that NCSoft isn't going to pay Paragon Studios to work on PvP content, not that Paragon Studios can't work on PvP content.

Rather, NCSoft's reported desire is that they drive the players willing to pay for PvP content to AION and the Guild Wars series, driving players to games that were created and built with PvP play in mind... not added as an afterthought to appease a vocal minority.

***

So no, you are not wrong that CoX PvE and CoX PvP are two different games. They have to be two different games in order to achieve their design goals. Unfortunately, those competing design goals mean that future PvP development just isn't likely.

Originally Posted by RottenLuck

I'm not sure if this fits here or not but I'm posting my random thoughts.

I don't PVP in this game thought I would like to. The problem like many I don't like the PVP rules. Why?

Well the basic is this from level 1-14 I learn a the game mechanics. I get used to said powers how they perform. What they can do to said foes.

Then level 15 and going into Bloody Bay. WHAT THE HELL! What I spent getting used to changes. It's a whole new system to get used to.

Much like driving when someone learns to drive an Automatic transmission and then they sit into a Manual Transmission car. This change is what bothers me I simply don't enjoy the changing systems when going from a PVE to a PVP Zone. Yes people had said the technical flaws in PVP I'm not going to bother with that.

Really who does? It's how it FEELS how it PLAYS and the mentality we players get from it. The way it seems to me is we have not one City of Heroes/Villains but Two. The PVE CoX and the PVP CoX.

Okay this Rant is over. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time

What do you expect? The Optical_Illusion account belongs to Twixt and that name alone should be enough to answer all your questions. If it doesn't then just check out the Freedom server forum and you'll learn who/what he is.

Originally Posted by Gaming_Glen

Pay for increased drop rates? What, you can't farm fast enough?

Originally Posted by JKCarrier

People argue against the game design all the time. For instance, when they complain about the changes in PVP a few issues back.