Nicetry

If by meaningless and pedantic you mean accurate and correct then yes I agree.

I don't think a single person has said your build will be "worse off". If they have I missed it. All I've seen some people say is that things might be tighter for some builds. Which there is no denying. It's easily demonstrated through simple math as I did and through simple examples as I did. It seems like you guys are making up a non-existent stance to argue against.

However, saying the build is tighter isn't meant to imply such negative connotation I'm pretty sure it is you guys that are implying all the negativity into posts that the posters aren't intending.

In fact if you were to read the posts I've made in this thread you'd see where I pointed out that this is a tremendous buff to anyone that wants to take advantage of it. I've gone so far as to say that people that choose so will be the exact opposite of 'worse off'. They'll be blowing through difficult team content like a recharge capped pre-nerf shield scrapper could go through even cons.

But you guys are free to continue insinuating things. I wouldn't dream of a cox thread that was otherwise.

Castle said you NEED to respec to take advantage of this change if you already have fitness selected. Oh the outrage you must be feeling

just buggin'. I wasn't trying to tell anyone the NEED to do anything. I was just pointing out what I see as some of the best options for those that are happy with their builds and are looking for 3 powers to swap in for the fitness branch that perform very well with no added slots.

In fact I know I wasn't trying to command people to do anything because I stated it was my opinion at the very end signified by 'IMO'. I also know I wasn't commanding people because it takes so few people making the decision to pick leadership for teams to be able to tackle significantly more difficult content. And by difficult content I include things like teams that current skip over problematic enemy factions like arachnos or malta in favor of freaks and council. I'm certainly not commanding anyone though, just highlighting some of the options that could make the game more varied and enjoyable for players. Sorry you took offense to that.

I'll take a stab at explaining it.

Currently we have 24 power picks and 3 inherent powers that can be slotted.

We get 67 additional slots.
67/27 = 2.48 added slots per power available.

By making fitness inherent and still slottable we add 3 more powers to the total.
67/30 = 2.23 added slots per power available.

By definition a build that took stamina before will be tighter.

The positives far outweigh the negatives, but it is undeniable that if someone wants to swap in powers that are slot hungry they will have to stretch the existing slots over more powers.

ie. Yay I can fit my patron pet in now. Darn I'd really like to add 3-4 slots to it so it performs better. Ergo tighter build. Which is why you've seen several people drawing attention to powers that don't require any/much additional slotting, which in that case it's a terrific bonus with no additional build construct woes.

You're taking offense to something that was not meant to be offensive.

'Selfish' used in context refers to 'solo mentality'.

If you had actually read the limited posts I've made in this thread you would not have made the comment you just made, seeing as how I even stated the EXACT thing you just did about some players taking the fighting pool.

Some of you guys kneejerk so hard I wonder if you kick yourselves in the head sometimes. Which of course leads to further comprehension failures and subsequent kneejerks due to the head trauma.

For what it's worth I haven't said anything negative about inherent fitness with the exception of contending the notion that power creep is either non existent or trivial. On the contrary the potential of team power creep is very large indeed. Whether it is realized in game or not and whether the devs are concerned one way or the other is largely irrelevant to my statement. The potential to pretty much never have a 'bad pug experience' as a result of poor players or inappropriate difficulty in the 20+ game is now there for anyone that wants it. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing either. Killing +3-4's at lvl 20 like they are +1-2's sounds fun to me.

That's the beauty of it though not many people do need to think of what will give the best power increase for the least investment with this deal. 4 out of 5 people, well heck nearly 7 out of 8 people are free to nimbly wimbly their way into flurry or jump kick and it will still make vengeance a far more common occurrence. Heck most people can decidedly make their toons performance go down by injecting flurry and one person with veng will overwrite an entire team of people like that. Force multiplication and all that jazz that we've all been over hundreds of times and shouldn't need explained again.

It only takes one person per pug really. The beauty is not many people need to pick it for it to proliferate teams and allow a very sharp increase in the ability to tackle more difficult content.

I understand the kneejerk reaction, I expect nothing less from an assortment of people around here. I wouldn't have even brought it up if this wasn't something that could be leveraged even with very very few people thinking of how to optimize their toon in a team environment - and all for free now.

Also you are the first person I've ever seen state that vengeance is a 'not fun' power. It might not be fun for the person that dies (which has absolutely nothing to do with the vengeance power itself), but people do die and the devs have been kind enough to make death virtually meaningless.
*and now others will chime in about how proclaiming a vendetta when a team mate falls in the heat of battle is the least fun power out there...

The rech cap is actually 500%, +400%, but we start with 100% for the purposes of figuring things out.
360/5 = 72 seconds at cap.

As mentioned I have an ill/cold with it at 94 ish seconds, which once you factor in cast time and a quick repositioning gives it a 7-8 second downtime. For the buff of course, not the debuff.

That is actually a staminaless build (or at least the last version I made of it is) and it works very well. The toon burns way more end than a cold/elec ever could (short of nuking) and I figure I could get by with about 15 seconds total downtime of HL and still not feel the pinch for stamina.

The highest build I've managed has it at 89.xx seconds, but it sacrifices a few set bonuses that I didn't want to lose.

Of course all that will change now that stamina is becoming inherent.

edit: the debuff itself is at best up about 1/3rd of the time

-Frosticus

Do you mean highest dps claws/wp in the game? because a claws scrapper itself - especially gaining nothing from the secondary in terms of damage increases - probably isn't a top 50 dps toon.

Fire blasters, despite the common (mis)conception, are not even remotely near the top of the food chain for st dps. They are however (along with archery) at or near the top in terms of burst aoe damage. However, a son/elec buzzsaw build with 3 spider bots could potentially do some crazy damage.

A lot has changed from when I drew up those extreme dps builds though. Some toons gained access to pets that didn't have them before which can help considerably. However the main contenders for that would be fire and dm/shield scrappers which already inch toward 300dps in ideal situations, but needing to be surrounded by foes means the patron pet would be unfocused in its damage delivery. I'm pretty confident my ill/cold could now move to the forefront on the list by swapping /ice app with /mace for an extra pet and an additional -18.8 res debuff. I'd have already said that that toon had the highest non-situation dps in the game and it will have only gotten higher since. And considering two key powers are still bugged and working well below expected levels, that is pretty dang good.

That said, banes and fire/fire/mace doms are still some of the most extreme single target damage delivering toons you could ever dream up in this game. Finding scenarios where they can fully stretch their legs though is a challenge. Some other noteables are ill/cold/mace and bots/storm/mu which can already perform exceptionally well and if sleet/freezing rain ever gets fixed would experience a very tangible increase (however, I heard Castle messed up something on the assault bot, so if that gets fixed or not might play a role). All those toons have potential to easily exceed the classic damage dealing options like blasters and scrappers (though I am thinking of taking a peak at a son/elec/mace blaster. I doubt it will contend with other top performers, but I imagine it will exceed all other blasters st performance.

-Frosticus

In the literal sense you are wrong. By definition of gaining three more powers unslotted or otherwise you will be more powerful situationally. How often the situation arises is the extent of the powercreep. I'll explain below.

On an individual level the power creep will be quite small for most combo's I can think of and I can think of a lot of combo's. Individual power creep would conceivably be the largest in pvp where phase and perception are both so important, but pvp is so terrible now that no one likely cares.

In pve the power creep for the individual will be at best (assuming you don't redistribute slots) 22.5% additional global rech. Or basically free quickness minus the runspeed increase and debuff protection for anyone that wants it and didn't already have in excess of 2 lotg's slotted. Or an unslotted weave, which in some cases could be pretty good still.

HOWEVER, the team power creep is through the roof. People content with the build sacrifices necessary to fit in stamina by 20 can now replace that with vengeance by 20.
-Ignoring the power of unslotted leadership toggles on a team for now because we are pretending people don't have much endurance to spare-
Even the weakest AT modifier puts out huge numbers for vengeance and will easily allow teams to tackle some of the highest difficulty settings and plow through them like they are on base settings.

No vengeance isn't becoming MORE powerful, but it is currently *balanced* (or pretends to be) by the rarity of it, which should be completely eliminated with this change. It will only take 1 or 2 (incase your main guy with the power is the one that dies) people on a pug with similar insight to me and the game will be stupid-easy from 20+.

Personally my builds are all excellent even with fitting in stamina, so for the majority of them this means veng by 20 as a straight swap. And this means any team I'm on (if I ever resub to this game) will be breezing through +2-4/x8 of pretty much any enemy faction from level 20 on with insane speed and reward rate.

You guys are right though, that's not really power creep, that is power leap . Provided roughly 20% of people think like I do so that most pugs will have a veng caster or two from now on.

P.S. even for the selfish player there is little reason not to go the leadership route as it will give you two lotg's as opposed to 3 with concealment. Unless you literally never team then taking leadership is a pretty simple decision for most toons as a straight swap for stamina's power picks imo.

They'd need to drastically increase the polygons used on characters. I have no idea, but that might up the min requirements of the game.

Otherwise just animating the faces of the utterly horrible looking faces the game uses now will be pretty bad looking. In fact, I was just messing around on gothic 1 the other day which has very low polygon characters with animated mouths. It looks really bad.

Sorry bout that, I was definitely reading negative tone where it did not exist.

Maybe, maybe not. They fixed dual pistols pretty quickly though and its damage was of minor incorrectness compared to KM.

I'm sure if enough people started complaining that scrapper CS does more damage than assassin strike by a fair margin (ignoring resistances) that would probably expedite any changes that might eventually occur.

I'm not sure why you quoted my passage and then proceeded to seemingly counter what I said by repeating what I said.

I'm probably just inserting tone where it doesn't exist though and you probably just wanted to emphasize the points that many people have been making - especially about how easy it will be to destroy content now that practically any build can include vengeance. That is certainly a marked performance increase for teams 20+ with no necessary slot investment that can trivialize most content. Not that teams don't already breeze through most of the game, but even more so with these changes provided one takes advantage of it.

I'd recommend players select manuevers with a lotg+rech. Run it or don't depending on situation/team make up. Tactics to flip on if you get perception debuffed or otherwise struggle to hit something. And veng with a lotg+rech. Trivialize content and add an extra 15% rech to your build with no slots necessary. Personally if one were to take that route they'd probably find that toons that already used stamina would notice the largest increase in their abilities compared to toons that already built without stamina as they either already had leadership, or won't be gaining any extra build room to fit it in. And if they already built without stamina they probably largely found a method to overcoming their endurance concerns. Though they may be able to slot more aggressively now.

They seem to stay relatively on top of correcting powers that are doing more/incorrect damage based on their pvp damage formula. That's about the only thing they change.

Specifically CS (for scrappers) is doing at least 100-200 extra base damage. Focused burst is doing ~50 too much base damage. The aoe's aren't using the gutted aoe formula and iirc body blow and smashing blow are reversed in terms of pvp damage.

Sure some other sets still have lingering inaccuracies in their pvp numbers, but KM (for scrappers) currently has more incorrect powers than correct ones.

-granted I'm using mids to check the pvp damages. They may be off from the ingame numbers for all I know as I haven't bothered to check.

Simply by virtue of gaining the ability to add 3 more powers to your build, but no additional slots to put in them. Lots of powers don't need any/many additional slots to perform well though, so I'd expect a lot of players to start selecting them. Many have been mentioned already, so no need to repeat them.

So powers do require additional slots, like if you were skipping a decent power from your prim/sec/app in order to fit in fitness. Finding additional slots to fill them out could be a challenge in some cases.