New Dawn

The figures I gave are only "so far" therefore not final so I withdrew them as not worth using. They would be higher/lower in an ambush or patrol, depending on if the pet lives or dies. Mostly die probably. I'd sooner see a typical farm that you move spawn to spawn with and an ambush farm. I can get an average life expectency in an ambush farm and use that.

That doesn't change my point of view on it though. Unless there was something in invisible ink or..?

I do feel that sets are designed to do certain things well or better than other sets. They're also designed not to cope and do what other sets can do at times, between the two there is best way to go about things. The arbiter of play is still yourself, if its fun to go about things against design intent then by all means go ahead.

I think I owe you an apology I had crossed wires in that what I wrote wasn't what I thought I wrote. Whether or not I accidentally edited what I wrote out or not is neither here or there but yep can see why you replied with such. My bad, I cost you a lot of time.

Last paragraph ya might want to edit out in ya post. If ya hadn't done so by the time ya read this.

Yeah I am not one of them but once we have all the incarnates in place and people with them I wonder if all ATs would look like eachother as in a walking living breathing I WIN BUTTON or will Blasters still be in dire need of something. I'd like to see changes to nuke crashes, maybe nukes despite mezzes, maybe nukes cancel out mezzes as well. The force of the blast interrupts the controls of the people around you.

I plucked the 80ft versus 70ft as an example not something that's fixed. It wasn't really me saying it had to be 80ft. It could be 70ft and 60ft. I don't care. The important bit was the bit of extra range with controls in comparison to NPCs range of controls. The principle, the idea or whatever rather than the exact figures.

I thought there was a tangent somewhere and I still do not see a connection between what I said and what you replied with.

I do not go into Scrapper section much. I do feel that a Dev can look at an idea and within a sec go "Nope" and move onto the next one. Some silly ideas if you stare at them long enough might spark a good one. I just get sick of any arguing in the Tank section quickly which is why I like it. Aett is being impartial, putting anything there and it won't take a dev too long to read. What does take too long to read is pages of arguing over something.

You think that was disingenuous? Blappers had the choice. Petless MMs had the choice. Yeah I think you are just trying out a new word. Pompous is a rarely used word that just came to me.

My blaster didn't use hover, that would be disingenuous.

There is more to them than that, I impressed people when I used a PB for a defender whilst using a Scrapper for a Tank, doing Scirocco. Yeah that's all we need, not even more than a SO build. You could give that dude nothing and take from him everything. It's all there, its just what the creative mind seeks to do with it. The Kheld has many avenues to go down, but people generally pick certain ones, certains one that maybe in truth what they need for 99% of the game, but again the game was balanced around everyone on SOs. The All Kheld Team on SOs is capable of much imo not just in theory but in practise.

WS, Dwarf is a poorer Tanker. PBs can aid better duct tape defensive manuevers. There are going to be pros and cons to each but if you wanted the same thing from both types you could be in for a disappointment as there are pros and cons to each.

What I love about Extracted Essence is its another body. Attacking something attracting aggro perhaps. The trouble with it though is it may die too soon. Rikti dummies don't hit back. Then what I like about Photon Seekers is the burstness, stackability to the Nuke.

I got the figures down already but not unenhanced they're just slotted similarly. But the thing is what is on Excel will not reflect what you get ingame, I have never stated otherwise which is why some practical has to be involved with theory. The value of having the AoE burst and the value of having another body DPS'ing away are two values not directly comparable. There is value to me in getting people to reply and say whatever constructive thing they have to say, before any final thoughts as it can bring interesting or concerned ideas to the table.

Last thing I'd want to see in any section is one person saying jump and the other person saying "how high?". We need to question and answer for ourselves not watching Fox News and believing everything it said without investigating the news brought to people by other countries sort of thing. I will be comparing an SO build to another first of all as that is what the game is still built around but then looking further down the line would be interesting.

I wasn't looking to convey an average experience for a Blaster, I was looking to show that I don't play things "safe" replying to someone who looked to imply I might of been. The Fake Nem bit was a bit of maths, actually more maths, not (a), not (b), as far as (c) goes, well okay I might of had some on me, not many, not planned, and used them. Definitely not (d) and there is an (e) missed off.

If someones Blaster can not operate at 80' all the time, that's their choice. Why can't they be able to operate at that range and still have melee and PBAoE attacks to use when safe to do so? I have builds like that. All powers are situational, all there for a reason. If I wanted a Petless MM and nothing but powerpool powers and can't do stuff then whose fault is that? I'd say I would be, I wouldn't ask the Devs to turn the game upside down over my choice.

I think you've assumed wrong perhaps and tried to make a point about it. I have every type of Blast. I don't sit at 0x0. I was 49 on a Mothership full of Mezzers and barely got mezzed, I even took the first bomb. I think Blasters are most likely to get mezzed, and if I look at how often I am mezzed on all my Characters my Blasters would have the most but I don't have issue with it.

Have you ever soloed 5 Fake Nems together that are +3 to you with a Blaster? Have you ever played as the team Tank with a Blaster on TFs, you rely on damage to get and keep attention, I can tell you. I am not playing safe all the time, sometimes I do take calculated risks, relying on others is a calculated risk in itself.

I've already said in this thread within the past couple of days why it is my Defender would have less threat and so spend less time mezzed. I'd never sit in melee rockin da aura. There is no rocket science to it and yet there is nothing in me to complain about how often I get mezzed in comparison to my other ATs. It's just one of those things thats relative and completely understandable.

NPCs tend to have super long range mezz attacks. Blasters can't beat them on it and properly kite all the time. I'd expect Blasters to mimic the ranger class to be true. Kiting/Controlling thru cripples and handicapping, trapping perhaps which Devices does. I'd expect a Blaster to be able to get the upperhand on other ATs with first blood being superbly well ranged, then on having the edge to keep it perhaps unless its safe to close and spike damage. Not some tankmage that shrugs every Mezz off.

My PVP experience of Controller versus Blaster makes things look even to me anyway so maybe in PVE its the NPCs whose controls need -ranging beneath that of Blasters control range. Blaster control range say 80, NPC control range 70. Something like that. That will reduce things abit but do nothing about player error.

This is what I want people to do rather than be all subjective about it. If someone elses findings are different I would be interested to hear. I would personally love it if someone like Microcosm looked into it as I know much of what people claim to know came from him. I'd rather deal with the Master rather than the Apprentice so to speak. I am pretty confident he can excel too. I am sure you will be able to break things down. I personally have yet to finish with my breakdown. Mine goes as far as taking each attack, taking the damage, multiplying that damage by multiple targets. That gives me a max DPA per attack, then you need to know how many times you can use that within a time period. I chose the pets rechg times for that. There will be a maximum amount of usage per attack that is rounded down one rather than rounded up one. You do as many of the best attacks within that period, and the cast times take away from the time period. Ultimately the DPS over multiple targets is totalled and divided by the time period to give an average DPS.

This is a point I have made and it is easier for different reasons. There is a gulf in the potential DPS that PBs can do on paper and what WSs can do, so that lack of ease with PBs is toning down what PBs can potentially do. Therefore the Solar Flares KB for one is toning things down. There are things a WS can do that accelerates what they can do that PBs can't too. When I will farm the same mission using both types of Khelds there will have to be allowances, a change ingame play to make up for the Pros and Cons of each.

The practical is necessary, can't just do theory. Everyones Practical will differ as we will have builds that differ but with these builds they are basically min/maxxed to give as close a approximate equality as possible.


Both PBs and WSs have reactive powers, using them ideally when the lowest DPA attack in the chain comes up would be nice but nice doesn't always occur. Personal play is always going to give an untrue reading in Practice. Random conditions is going to upset what can be done in Theory. But atleast I am looking at both areas. Nova is better for WS whereas Dwarf is better in PBs. I' haven't gone into whether I'd be shifting at all yet.

I have looked into Incarnates, Incarnates address much in the way of what changes people would of made to Khelds in the past. They also further a character to what they will ultimately be. I have looked into a PB and whether or not it can be made to run without running out of endurance. Endurance is potentially another issue toning PBs down. A WS will more easily not have issues with that given a perfect model. This is another concideration.

I had an idea for this but in another section as it would apply to all powers across all ATs the same way. Basically the Tier 9 is a toggle, the longer you have it on the harsher the crash. If it recharges the maximum amount of time then you will have the harshest crash. Its kind of the same mechanic people would like to see for Time Bomb.


I don't think WS have the amount of KB/s PBs do. Solar Flare can have its rechg lowered to improve its potential DPS and currently that would increase how much KB/s it will do which is the issue. I understand the issue and I can see how contributional the Solar Flare can be to Human Forms DPS without it. I think a solution that can work for others of other ATs might be the one to opt for. By offering a IO set that reduces KB you are offering a IO set that is increasing potential DPS which "might" aid towards the overpowerment of a powerset in PvE. So then you lower the Damage buff side of the set as a counterbalance but to keep the DPE of the power ball park correct the IO set could have extra end reduction to it.

I don't get the 75% circa of a WS. Is that a figure you've come up with from thin air? Some people pluck things that are out of thin air to me. This is why I look into things, every reply does help in that I could be reminded to look into something in addition to what I was looking into but I wouldn't pluck a figure out of thin air. I would go get my own figures from somewhere, get my own ideas, if someone knows something I'd rather question it and understand how or why they know something. I don't honestly believe that a PB will quite step on a WS toes, unless the WS was badly played but the full potential inclusive of a PB might have to come down abit if it was as easy to farm with.

This is one of the things that I have looked into, the PBs endurance recovery will tone it down. Its okay to have possible potential DPS if you have an endless supply of endurance. KB removed from PBs, where a PB has to stop to rest a WS may well be carrying so over a 10 minute timescale they could well match eachother in amount done. Or it may take the endurance limits of a PB and that KB. This is something I am going to be using the practise of farming for.

Going back to what I said before I don't just accept what people say. I will challenge it. I will put things down on excel, I will then disagree with people over it then I will put things into practise and see if practise meets theory and what I believe the truth maybe then.

If the truth wins I win. Even if I completely have to do a U turn on everything I have said so far. I still win. I have learned something. I haven't simply accepted what someone has said and been spoon fed. The replies lead to action, considerations. I won't have a clue what THB will say but for all those to have a mature non forum guideline rule breaking reply I will.

The PBs are defendery enough imo. Any single AT should be able to 8 man up on their own AT and be able to do anything pre-incarnate on SOs imo. Khelds can. The PB is the main defender of it. Even Grp Fly can aid in a defensive manuever. Most people won't have it, that's their choice but for me the Kheld AT has everything it needs to be a Independent Unit. Some people may not realize it but the powerset doesn't have powers thrown at it for no reason.

Edit: I might of through bad grammar say something that may not come across as intended but I am in a rush. So not proofreading.

Going from the top there you say that your PB can not AoE the snot out of mobs like a Warshade can right? The reason is you as far as I am concerned. You built yours and you play yours. The responsibility is yours. When it comes to hitting multiple targets on Excel PBs have greater potential in my eyes. What helps is the amount of multiple target clicks involved, what might rein that in further for you is perhaps whether you took certain AoEs or not, whether you get around any KB or not. Then there is mob types. Another two things that can rein a PB in is the lack of potential survivability in a WS favourite environment and endurance.

Use EXCEL, don't be subjective. The difference in DPS with multiple targets considered is a healthy gap in the PBs favour. The PB could do with Stygian to hold that gap really but without it it might be reined in. Tied down so to speak, tired sooner. WS TP about a bit, getting to mobs sooner potentially, allowing for end rec less, these factors have to be involved. All factors do.

Solar Flare maybe changed but at the same time KB attacks for everyone might be able to change. They only have to introduce an IO set which will reduce KB rather than increase it, that set might not buff your base damage value by much causing less DPE to maintain balance, but if it decreases the endurance cost of the power by a proportionate amount too the DPE of the attack will remain the same.

I intend to farm the same missions with my PB and WS. Even ground missions, after DXP obviously and when my WS gets the same mission but I will using builds with attacks you might of skipped farm and see if they finish the same. It's applying a practical to a theory.