Netphenix5

Fair enough, and thanks for the tips! All of which only confirm the fact that tehre's no "wrong" way to slt Storm.

It's definitely doable - both Shield defense's Grant Cover and the Leadership-like buffs of the VEATs show that you can have such powers in "armor/defensive" sets - AKA a set that's mainly here to protect you but that could still give you options to protect others (as opposed to a buff set like FF where you're mainly protexting others and only incidentaly helping yourself)

I think Tankers could have one power per Primary that's unique to them and protects nearby teammates, the way Stalkers have specific versions of sets they share with other ATs. It would give them something NO ONE ELSE does, not just something they do "better than others". And personally, I'd rather have a "Paladin" Tanker than a merger of Tankers and Brutes, which is what I read Johnny_Butane's suggestions as amounting to.

So you're saying that Tier 9 VIP are indeed Very Important Persons and anyone under tier 8 is a second-class Very Insignificant Poodle? I can only imagine how new VIPs will feel reading that. Even with my tier 6 I resent the implications.

Personally, I'm loving most of what Freedom brought us, except for two things :

A) If keeping your promised schedule of new stuff all the time means lowering quality so much, then by all means, drop back to once every two weeks or once a month. I'd rather have flawless goodies come out each time I get my VIP stipend than questionable bundles or expendable stuff every week. Plus, that way, I wouldn't hoard it week to week in case the next bundle is even better... Then feel shafted because it's worse I should have bought the previous one.

B) When Going Rogue came out, it cost, if I remember correctly, about $30 right? For this price we had 6 new zones, a new morality/alignment system, several power sets, new story arcs out the wazzo, and so on and so forth. Now $30 worth of points will buy me at most a powerset and a costume pack. Even the old Super Packs introduced emotes, costumes, extra powers and in the case of Super Science, a system improvement to the tailor - for $10, maybe $15 ! The prices have gone THROUGH THE ROOF with the Paragon Market, and even the measly 400 points a month VIP bonus does NOT compensate. Either review your PM pricing policy or treble our stipend before you turn us into Very Impoverished Players. Please.

Then indeed, I had a faulty understanding of the system, and as such, my proposed framework doesn't work. I concede defeat. However, allow me to adress your other points for completeness' sake.

What I was trying to avoid was a resistance that would get applied to vectors all the time, as a separate value from Type resist the way Positional defense and typed defense are separate. Of course there has to be a record somewhere of the resist value a positional shield gives you, but it has no effect APPART from an addendum to a typed resistance - which I think is the exact definition of a temporary resist. I tried to set it up so that even though your power description said you had 20% resist to melee, it only existed within the code as a +20% applied to your resistance to a given attack at the moment of resolution. Hence, no need to change existing powers, IO sets, etc. But yeah, it has to exist SOMEWHERE in the code, which I tried to represent by this variable.

Of course. There had to be a variable. But in that way it only had to appear in the code during damage resolution, not in every resist power in the game. There would be an attribute window listing those. For almost everyone it would say 0% the way it lists positional defense at 0% on an Elec Scrapper. There would be steps in the damage calculation parts that would involve those variables if and only if a power granting them was involved. But for every power in the game right now, there would be no need to add anything. Tough would not need to be rewritten to say it adds "0% Melee resist". A sonic Haven would not need to say anything about it. Powers that debuff resistance (as far as I know they all do so across the resistance board) would debuff after the boost had been applied in my pseudocode.

It's frustrating, because it seems obvious to me but I clearly fail at making it so to others. I tried to make it so it would get the effect sought while requiring little to no modification of, say, 97% of the game code. But I relied on two things - immediate damage calculations (which you just proved to me were wrong) and whole damage calculations (ie no DoT). I agree that I made a mistake in that.

My bad on the "max", you're right. And yes, of course, I'm sure there is an "ATresCap" value somewhere that would go there instead.


I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure FA can Scourge on some ticks and not others, but I can't say for sure if it means each tick is a separate hit. I don't think so.

You're right. I hadn't noticed the flag discrepancy in Levitate. It seems extremely weird to me that it would be flagged a different type than what it deals. I guess I can understand why in hasn't got a positional flag, but the type flag baffles me.

Not quite, if DoT remains a hole in the set, then no matter what its type it wouldn't get resisted. But the entire first side of the attack would.Since all your resists would get raised the same by a vector shield, you'd resist the same global percentage through it, but other powers like Tough would help resist some part of dual types more. In this case you'd resist the lethal and fire attack but take the whole fire DoT side. And with Tough, the lethal part would as usual hit for a bit less than the fire.

If those resist values appeared out of the damage calculations of the attack, probably. But here, they would be coded into the damage calculation mechanics of each attack, so I don't think latency would have much of an effect. Unless I misunderstand the way those calculations are acted, the game knows how much damage Lift will inflict the moment it hits you even it it's applied after 2 seconds. the resist, I believe, is applied when it hits, not when it goes through, unless it's DoT. At least that's how I read what I saw in CoData. Again, the resist would be applied in those calculations only, it couldn't spill over to another attack because it would only "exist" within the context of that attack. I don't see this as harder to implement.

Let's try pseudocode to illustrate :

Var smashResist //your permanent resistance to Smashing, factoring such powers as Tough
Var MeleeResist //the resist value of your Melee shield
tempSmashResist //the virtual sum of the two, you can swap Smash for anything else
Var vector

If (attackHits) // Gotta matter, right?
{ if (attackVector is Melee) {vector=Melee} //It could match your shield or your defense - so far nothing new I think. But now we need to store it
...
VARIOUS DEFENSE-RELATED STEPS. WEGET TO DAMAGE CALCULATION
...
{ if (vector=Melee AND HasMeleeResist) //Checks to see if you have a vector-based resist that applies when the attack hits. That's the new part
{tempSmashResist=max(smashResist+MeleeResist,90)}//adds your resist with a 90% max
else {tempSmashResist=smashResist} //Uses just your plain resist.
smashingDamageApplied=AttackDamage-((AttackDamage*tempSmashResist)/100)
}

All this assuming it's a simple Smashing attack of course. Is that any clearer?

Okay, THAT argument I can accept, because I used it myself. I'm indeed not qualified to judge how hard it would be. I should have said that it wouldn't be unfeasibly hard. I'm a programmer in certain languages, and within the scope of that experience, I would consider it possible. But I can't say if it would be easy, true.

But I think you'll agree that I tried to stay as close to the existing mechanics as possible to lessen the difficulty. And if DoT damage carries over the vector of its parent attack, then my system stands. Can anyone confirm that side of things? And assuming DoT couldn't be mitigated, would you consider it too crippling a weakness for an armor set? I don't remember there being that many high-damage DoTs in the game, aside from Full Auto and some drop/rain powers.

To the first part, it's the second option. Values are added and capped at 90% if they add to more PRIOR to the damage being applied. Toxic attacks that have vectors would get resisted just like they would be dodged by SR, but it would be very hard to boost the resist of the set to it, since typed Toxic resist is so rare.

As for DoT... Damn, now you actually thought of something I hadn't. It would be harder to deal with, since a virtual resist would have to be applied to the DoT even if it lets other attacks of the same type through... I guess one roundabout way to solve it would be to force the DoT damage of the incoming attack to be actually lowered by a percentage if it gets resisted, but that would be MUCH harder to do reliably and would imply a real change of the damage dealign mechanics. Or a variable would be added to DoTs that would make the engine consider each tick of DoT as an attack of the same vector as its parent source attack. Again, it would add way more steps than I'm comfortable with. Dammit. Good game, Twigman.

[EDIT] : If Hopeling said about DoT sharing the vector of the original attack stands, then this system would consider each tick as a new attack as far as those resists are concerned. They'd get reduced. Caltrops could be a weak point of the set, like it is for defense sets.

[Re-EDIT] : Drats, no it wouldn't be that easy would it? Since with defense sets, once the parent attack goes through, you eat the DoT, it's clearly not seen as a new attack. Making it work so would DEFINITELY invoke the SCR. Caramba. Hmm... Maybe DoT could be considered THE "hole" of the set?

I really must be bad at explaining, because I gave the wrong impression again. My apologies, Aett.

When I say that it uses the same check as defense, I meant only so far as to check what vector the attack uses. As I understand it, when an attack hits my character, there are two separate checks, on looking at the damage type, one looking at the attack vector. Based on what they say, different defenses are checked and the highest is applied, correct?

This applies BEFORE the engine looks at which defense is highest, because even if I have a huge Melee defense if it's a ranged Lethal attack that hits, Melee defense won't even be factored in. Those checks, as far as I'm aware, exist already, since my SR Tank can use the Watchman Accolade that grants high Psi def and get a chance to avoid a Blind in his face despite the attack having no vector. So there HAS to be a way to check both type and vector as early as ToHit for those rare cases when you have both types of defense. No need to redo it after, just store its result somewhere to pass on to the next stage. That wouldn't be too hard, I assume.

Then, since the way I see it, a positive check on the vector test would result in a higher resist value for this attack only,Tough would auto-stack with it, since all resists would be considered boosted temporarily. Essentially, for a split-second (as seen by the code) all your resists would be set at the shield power's values. Tough and other temp protections would then stack with it if their resist in concerned.

In the example of Tough, it sets my S/L resist to 15% so long as it runs. I'm hit with a Lethal attack that I can't counter vector-wise, I get those 15%. I get hit with one I can counter, those 15% (and technically, every other resist, but in the end just the one the attack is typed with would matter) get a boost based on my shield and then go back to their stable values. Tough and all the other shields would not have to be changed.

Am I making more sense? I really am trying to come up with as easy as system to implement as I can with no technical knowledge of the code behind the game.

Fair enough. I checked, and every toon I rolled since the change has access to a set with it / Shares such a power with an AT that does, so I mistakenly came to believe it had been coded everywhere. My bad. The argument still stands, jut not as high.

And again, I'm proposing neither. I'm offering to rely on existing mechanics with a twist. Please point out to me where I say I'd add anything to existing powers in the game, because I need to amend/clarify such a statement.

As for adding a check in the to-hit process, such a check ALREADY EXISTS - it's the same used for positional defense, its result would simply activate a different mechanic on the Tanker (or Brute, or Scrapper), not at any other level. To Hit, Accuracy, defense, and so on and so forth, would not have to be changed in any way.

If it helps represent things, assume a positive check on the (already existing) test would grant an instantaneous global resist shield to the character, which would then go poof. Does that make sense? I think the bug potential would be pretty low.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, if you don't mind. As I said, I can't wrap my mind around the concept of typed defense as explained in the Ice armors sets, but if you can, great. If Ice provided defenses against physical attacks (S/L) and resist to ALL elemental damage (because I'm sorry, but electricity ain't gonna slide off a sheet of ice) then I'd be all for it. And even so, I think I'd be happier with Smashing resist - go at an ice block with a knife, you'll slide off; go at it with a hammer, you'll crush the impact point. But, as I said, if it works for you, great !

I'm very glad that we agree on that.

In the context of what I'm proposing, yes, yes it would be just as hard. The fire damage they added IS a new variable added to each and every power in the game with, on top, a test checking to see if the power "embrace of fire" has been activated. It's very similar to what I'm proposing. And I fail to see in what way it wouldn't be more viable than having to work out a whole new system, which WOULD be incredibly difficult, if not outright unfeasible. My system does simulate vector resist based on the existing framework of the game as I understand it. If my comprehension of it is faulty, please point out to me in what way.

You know, this actually made me re-read the thread from the top, because I thought I did just that twice already. Maybe I'm being unclear and if so I apologize sincerely, but two people already both brought up the mechanics aspect and tried to accuse me of adding stuff to the game system. So I'm gonna try to explain more clearly.

Say you use the powerset as I outlined it at level 10 - you have the first two shields up so we'll say that you have a positional resistance of, say, 40% (not that well slotted yet. ) You have no AoE resist and haven't collected accolades or gained Tough yet.

You go to Perez for some easy Hellion hunting. A Minion walks up to you and Punches you for 10 damage. The Punch attack is dealing Smashing damage with a Melee vector. The game checks the vector, sees it matches that of your first shield (like it would with Super Reflexes) and consider you have 40% resist to the attack. You only take 6 damage.

A Hellion boss turns up, shoots a fireball at you for 25 fire AoE damage. The same check that would activate for SR goes through (see? Nothing added so far) sees you don't have AoE resist (no third shield yet) and you eat the whole 25 damage.

Now, assume a sonic defender comes along for the ride. He grants you a Sonic Haven, so you gain 20% Fire resist. In the first case scenario above, the game would grant you your shield's 40% resist but have no existing typed resist to stack it on - you'd still take 6 damage. Had he granted you a Sonic Barrier, you'd have had a 20% Smashing resist, which would have stacked with your own shield for 60%. In the case of the Fireball, you have the 20% resist from Haven, but your first two shields would not stack with a non-AoE attack, so your res is 20%. Had he sent Flares at you instead, it would have matched your Ranged shield and granted you a total 60% resist.

I hope I'm making sense this time. Let me try to emphasize so people actually see it : as I envision it, there are no tags to add, no values to add to powers out of this set, and a lot of the needed mechanics exist already thanks to the typed/positional defense check already. All that would be needed is the code to stack the resists on a case-by-case basis, and that I can't provide, since I'm not a developer for the game. If that's what you accuse me of, then yes, I haven't thought of THAT. But I HAVE thought of the mechanics, as much as I can for a rough concept. I can't say if the amount of work needed would be huge, but it doesn't seem too much bigger than what they did for Embrace of Fire. It needs no rewrite of the ToHit mechanics, and little of the Damage calculation - I'd say not that much more than adding any other resist armor.

Now, maybe my concept doesn't mesh with how you saw Vector-based resist working. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on the subject, all the more if it helps me polish out my concept (or yours - constructive criticism is always welcome.) But as things stand, I'll consider your last paragraph null and void, because I have thought out the mechanics and consider it could work with the current game engine. Feel free to prove me wrong instead of calling me wrong.

And the power such as I described them work better at diffracting things that come at you a certain way - at the beginning you only have enough control to do so at very close range, then along a precise path, and finally all around oyu. It's just as flimsy an explanation. (Yes, I can admit that it's flimsy, but come on, so's ice's.)

Then you need to try other sets. I play Martial Arts, and I do just fine against +2/x3 Praetorian Clockworks and Maltas at level 40. I did slot for regen - between Health, set bonuses and base I have a 250% regen and I plan on taking Physical Perfection to help boost it. (I should end up at something like 300% base regen.) I used to have the Medecine pool for a self-heal (which I could reliably use even in a fight thanks to my defense) and respec'd out of it because I almost never used it - even when tanking both Hrod'hrotz and Nemesis in the Dark Watcher arc I didn't need more than a couple greens and some help from the team. SR works with a lot of sets.

Ultra-violence - I think you misunderstood the way it works. It doesn't protect you just from the front or from one side. It works like Super Reflexes and protect you against a type of attack - Melee, Ranged or AoE. Where the foe attacks from is irrelevant, it's HOW he aims at you that matters.

Dr Harmony - I am pleased that you're providing constructive criticism but you only read parts of this thread before doing so. I understand that adding new types of resist to powers would be a huge and difficult project, with a LOT of potential issues with balance. Luckily, that's not what I'm suggesting. See my previous reply to this concern :

(Emphasis for clarity)

I hope this makes sense. NOTHING would have to be "nerfed" or even modified in any way that we players can see. No new mechanic, no new values, no cottage rule infringement. Considering that resist caps are MUCH higher (especially on a Tank), even reasonable resist values would leave holes in the resistance. Heck, this set could even have a toxic or psi "hole" by providing lesser resist values no matter what the vector (I trust devs and writers to find a justification for that)

Even assuming all shields provided 35% across the board resists based on vector, enheanceable to about 53% max, (around 65 with Alpha T4?) even if you also had a sonic defender in the team, the Eye of the Magus and Vanguard accolades, Tough running and sets bonuses out the wazzo, you wouldn't get at the cap on everything. Most maybe, but as has been repeatedly said, Psi and Toxic are harder to resist. And with those kind of aids, ANY resist set can cap almost every type. Though certainly not all the time.

I know it sounds very powerful read like that but remember :

- SR is about as powerful. Short of the RNG stepping in, it can make a Tank untouchable by level 30.

- This set has no defense. Any mez and debuff that's aimed at you you'll feel. End drain is gonna be a *****. Even if you resist the lash from a simple Demonic Girlfriend, you'll get the -regen of her hellfire.

- it's not exactly like having high resist to all types because some attack lack a vector. I know off the top of my head that Blind from Illusion control does,and believe me, as an SR tank I'm far more wary of Illusionists than Ring mistresses when fighting Carnies. Who's to say that there won't be more, of more types, later on? Assume, for example, an hypothetical attack that occurred because a Fire Caster raised your internal temperature with a spell - Fire damage, no incoming vector. A Fire armor Scrapper is used to those temperatures, so he gets resists. My concept has no way to feel it coming, he eats it all. Just because there aren't any right now doesn't mean there won't be any later (and with the ease with which defense build are made those days on ANY toon, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it happened sooner than later.)

- The above example assumes a well-built level 50. The way I wrote it, even a Tank wouldn't get the last shield until level 12, and a Scrapper/Brute would have to wait till level 20, and slotting would delay its potential protection even more. Until then, anything with an AoE attack will be as dangerous to you as it would to any toon with no defense and no mitigation.

- Building for both res and def would be very difficult and expensive, so no or little layered mitigation.

- I never said it should provide equal res values to all vectors, even though I assumed it could in my examples. I'm very wary of offering hard numbers since I feel THAT is a job best left to the devs for balance and such. Since melee attacks do hit harder than ranged, which hit harder than AoE in the game, I don't feel it would be strange to have the first shield provide higher values than the second, which would provide higher values than the third.

- It brings more than just a weakness to AoE the first 20 levels. It brings a new concept for an armor set that doesn't require a brand new mechanic or a variation on a theme like Elec/Fire/Dark armor (which, at their core, are resist sets of different type). Many players clamor for more defensive armor sets but some of the suggestions I've seen would asks ten time the development of this one, cool though they may sound on paper. I'm looking for something a bit fresher than "Ice Resist", but that we could hope to get in 3 issues instead of 30.

I played with the idea of doing a complete SR parrallel. It could be done by turning No-Mind, Reincarnation and Yin absorption into passive res powers, but I'm afraid it would then LACK in utility. Even SR gets at least Def debuff resistance. And WP or Elec get a LOT of them.

This set would need Res debuff resistance, and THAT is something I'm unsure would be possible to code in the current game system. Or the passive could add resists to other effects like slow, end drain and perception debuff maybe.

And AFAIK, SR tanks can reach 45% defense on all three vectors with no additional powers on IOs, and even on SOs I think Combat jump would get them there. I got one myself that runs at 44% AoE, 46% Ranged and 54% Melee, but I used IO set bonuses and CJ to get there. Total beast.