Nericus
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Quote:Yes Wonder Woman is no weakling, but Superman is supposed to be the strongest, most powerful of them all. At least that was the case before the stupid DC reboot, now I don't know where he ranks in terms of power at the moment.Originally Posted by BrandX
Sounds more like "We don't want to allow Superman to lift it"
Going with your suggested idea, then the power of Thor's hammer could corrupt anyone. Wonder Woman lifted it and she's no slouch in power, same with Storm.
And I can't imagine Superman not passing the worthiness enchantment.
The writer/editors on JLA/Avengers weren't out to disrespect any character. I remember the uprising of THOR fans when Superman easily decked THOR, only to see them all laugh it up when Superman couldn't lift the hammer at the end. The creative team said it was all part of the story.
I'm also not saying Superman would go corrupt instantly if he wielded the hammer, but the hammer may have sensed Superman's power levels and realized it would be far too dangerous to let Superman wield the power of Mjolnir. Think about it, a quasi indestructible weapon that grants instantaneous control of the weather to the wielder, plus the wielder is endowed with the strength and physical might of THOR. Now picture that wielder as Superman.........not necessarily something that would make many feel comfortable. In the past as I recall he has also passed up membership in the GLC for pretty much the same reason: too much power. -
Quote:Yes but if there ever was an Asgardian in need of a humility lesson besides THOR it would be Loki.Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
well do remember that Loki is a wimpy god not like Thor or Odin.
I'd say the Hulk taught him that lesson
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Quote:Yes but in the Ultimate Comics, is Ultimate THOR's hammer bound by the same worthiness enchantments?Originally Posted by BrandX
I can't understand why Superman wouldn't beable to lift Thor's hammer. :/
Also in non comic continuity, Hulk in Ultimate Avengers lifted it with pure rage!
As to Superman, THOR did allow him to use it at the end of JLA/Avengers but after the big fight was over Superman couldn't lift it again. THOR assured him that the hammer was in good hands when Superman did use it and explained that in times of dire need the worthiness enchantment can be temporarily bypassed.
As to why Superman can't lift it......perhaps the hammer deemed him unworthy because he already has a lot of power? Power does corrupt after all if one isn't careful.... -
Let's imagine for a moment that the all-seeing ODIN, King of Asgard, was observing the events in Avengers and saw HULK turn Loki into a rag doll and leave him embedded in the floor as says "Puny God"
What do you think ODIN's reaction would be? I'll sum up my guess in word:
"....whoa." -
Quote:In Ang Lee Hulk the guy that was blown up by his own missile bouncing off Hulk was Glen Talbot. He was always a jerk in the comics before he was killed.Originally Posted by BrandX
I thought in the 2008 Hulk, except for Blunsky who in the end survived the blast, and the hulk may have realized he was on something to survive it, no one was killed.
I'll rewatch it later and see, but I don't recall any deaths at all. Now they did say he was wanted for deaths, buuuut, they were the military, I figured those deaths were
1) from the accident that created the hulk himself
2) the military progpoganda machine going on (ie lying)
3) The one scene in Ang Lee's Hulk (that I hated due to the special effects used), where the guy shoots Hulk with a grenade launcher, it bounces off, then blows up. They guy who was kinda a *** the whole movie to banner and wanted to burrow Banner's head with a drill.
In 2008 Hulk we see Ross and Betty surviving the creation of the Hulk, it would follow that others there may have also, ie: Rick Jones.
It is possible that Ross was lying to the troops about deaths that Hulk was involved with, but go back and watch the fight at the university, I don't recall seeing many, if any, troops ejecting from their vehicles during that fight. Also that football kick he gave Blonsky should have killed him if it weren't for the SSS. -
Quote:Wonder Woman was part of that Marvel vs DC/Amalgam junk as I recall and I am not sure if that series is considered canon anymoreOriginally Posted by Liz Bathory
6. Diana Prince (Wonder Woman)
7. Ororo Monroe (Storm)
Storm: that was a hammer crafted by Loki to have similar powers to THOR back when Storm's mutant powers were neutralized. I do not recall her lifting Mjolnir -
I like it, but from what I recall of Tron Legacy, Beck isn't in that movie so since this series is between the movies I'd have to speculate that Beck is doomed to be derezzed.
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Quote:I'm not objecting to the fact that deadly force was used, we are talking about the fate of the planet itself after all. I'm simply posting a movie Hulk comparison:Originally Posted by Dark One
Given the way EVERYONE was killing them things off, I can't imagine Hulk would be pulling his punches. Between Hawkeye hittin' 'em with his various and sundry arrows, Widow bustin' a cap, Thor smackin' 'em, and Tony blowing them up (combined with the copious amounts of purplish blood) leads one to believe that yes, they were killing them.
I don't think they were drones. They seemed too anticipatory and more than a little gleeful at invading Earth. They might've been a hive-mind sort of thing or psychically linked to the mothership. When it went poof, they fell down.
1. Ang Lee kept the comic book magic that Hulk never kills and that all the soldiers that fought him lived when clearly some shouldn't have. Come on he grabs a tank by it's cannon barrel and spin throws it. Anyone in there should have been dead.
2. 2008 Hulk: his power levels are reduced from comic book level and Ross stated Hulk was wanted in connection to some deaths and some of the soldiers that fought him at the university sure looked like they were killed. Plus Hulk punts Blonsky down field, something that in the comic wouldn't have happened. Hulk in the comic would have flicked a finger to knock someone like Blonsky out (Grey Hulk did that to Clay Quartermain in Peter David's classic run).
3. Avengers: no civilian casualties caused by the Hulk. Like the old guy that found Banner had said "or maybe just good aim" thus implying that Hulk/Banner angled their fall to hit the empty building to purposefully avoid casualties. During the big fight, Hulk is plowing through buildings, smashing the enemy but he avoided any civilians. Case in point the giant war dragon is bearing down on the building and then with a mighty roar comes Hulk running through the other side of the building to leap onto it and steer it away. No civilians hurt by Hulk, but plenty of aliens to smash.
Also I always chuckle at how Cap sized up the situation and gave everyone their orders based on their abilities and told them all what to do then turns and says
Cap: "And Hulk.......!"
Hulk looks at Cap.....
Cap: "......SMASH!"
Hulk just smiles and proceeds to follow the one and only order he needs.
Also what is the greater test of Asgardian's immortality:
1. THOR trapped in a Hulk Rage Cage that is dropping at terminal velocity from 30,000 feet (yes he broke out at the last minute but still that had to hurt)
2. LOKI being treated like a rag doll by the Hulk -
Also here's a Hulk comparison from Ang Lee Hulk to 2008 Hulk, to Avengers:
1. In Ang Lee Hulk, the same comic book magic from the comics that kept all the soldiers alive as Hulk smashed their vehicles, even the tank that he twirled and tossed was in this movie. For any vehicle that he smashed, listen and you can hear the personnel radioing in that they are fine but out of the fight. Ang Lee Hulk didn't kill even by accident.
2. 2008 Hulk: Ross briefs the troops and Blonsky and states that Hulk is implicated/responsible for some deaths, and when Hulk was attacked at the university it sure didn't look like any military personnel in the vehicles got away. In the fight with the Abomination, any civilian or military casualties were from Abomination, but HULK was going to use deadly force at the end if Betty hadn't screamed for him to stop. Also of course there was Hulk punting Blonsky down field, something that would have killed a normal man.
So a touch of realism in 2008 in terms of people being wounded or killed, but that kind of breaks the rule or tradition that Banner prevents the Hulk from using terminal force.
3. Avengers: Hulk looked like he was going to smash the Widow but Loki got him all riled up at first and then THOR intervened so we don't know if Hulk was going to crush her, but I kind of doubt it. HULK could also have crushed that fighter pilot but instead tossed him away to safety. The guy that helped Banner and tossed him the clothes pointed out that it was either luck or good aim that had Hulk land where he did, thus giving Banner something to think about before the big fight. During the invasion, Hulk looked to be using deadly force against the aliens, but in such an event where one is fighting for the safety of the WHOLE PLANET, I'd say terminal force is more then justified when facing the enemy. -
Quote:If people think any of the fights were too long, just wait until the DVD's with all the deleted scenesOriginally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Mrs PRAF also thought the Avengers fights went on a little too long, especially Thor v Iron Man. But the Aliens? I'm pretty sure they where deliberately left mysterious for future instalments.
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Quote:I think it was mentioned in the assorted bonus material or commentary of Ang Lee's Hulk movie.Originally Posted by Chyll
Could be. I went and did some hunting and couldn't find the reference I remembered reading...
I think Norton helped with the capture process but wasn't as involved as Ang Lee or Ruffalo -
Quote:If memory serves, Ang Lee did all the motion capture work for his Hulk.Originally Posted by Chyll
Except it is the second, I'm pretty sure. One of the on-set issues with the last one was Norton's insistence on using himself for the capture, as I recall reading...
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Efficiency Expert
Mayhem Badges
Safeguard Badges
Praetorian Badges
These have always been unobtainable by Flashback. Aside from new arcs added and the level requirement for gaining the Ouroborus power being lowered, the Flashback system hasn't really changed. -
Quote:Agreed, also in IM 1 when Pepper is watching the financial guy clowning around on his TV show, stating that Stark is now a weapons company that doesn't make weapons; if you listen closely when Stark calls Pepper to the lab you can hear him say "Howard, nazi killer Stark must be rolling in his grave" or something close to that.Originally Posted by BrandX
I always got the feeling Tony's dad, who says he fought the Nazi's, was just really old when he had Tony.
I work with someone who's in her mid 50's with a toddler. It's not like this doesn't happen. -
Quote:Continuity time gaffes not withstanding, that is Tony's father in Captain america, we are also talking about a comic book universe where the Hulk's pants stay on when Banner transforms, just roll with it.Originally Posted by Samothrake
I know what the two IM movies say, but that is clearly a continuity gaffe. Think of how much time has passes in the world since the events of Captain America which takes place in 1942/1943. In that movie we have a Howard Stark who looks to be late twenties-early thirties in age. Fast forward to 2008 when the IM1 movie took place. Thats close to 65 years. Now take Tony, who is clearly supposed to be in his early, perhaps mid-30s (even if RJD is almost 50). The magazine coves were shown in IM1 with a young Tony are clearly from the late 70s.
Take Obadiah Stane. The character is supposed to be late 50s/early 60s in 2008. Which means Obadiah was born in in the late 40s or early 50s. This works well with the publicity stunt to shut up the hippies in the 70s. And Obadiah Stane is said to be a lifelong friend and ally. (Incidentally, Jeff Bridges was 59 when the movie was filmed, making him and the characters ages fit together perfectly).
Even if we take a modest estimate of Howard Stark in CA as being 25 in 1942, then by the70s, the Howard Stark in CA would be in 50s. Pushing his age forward in 1942, just makes him older by the 70s.
We have very few solid dates in the IM1 and IM2 movies, but we do have a newspaper article and front page from the time of Howard Starks death. It is listed as December 17, 1991, and Marvel tells me that Tonys father died on the Ides of March (the 15th). Which means that if Howard was 25 in 1942, he was 74 when he died.
Now going back to Stane. If he was 60 in 2008, that of course means he was born in 1948 well after the events in Captain America. For him to be a lifelong friend and ally to Howard, he really could not have been born in 1948. And if he wasnt that pushes his age upward to where he has to be over 80 by the time of the events in IM1. And that clearly isnt the case. If Stane is born in 1948, that means he couldnt have met Howard until at least the late 60s, and by that time Howard is nearly 50, with Obadiah only in his early 20s. I find it difficult to believe that Obadiah and Howard would be called lifelong friends with a 30 year age difference. If you look at the picture with Howard and Obadiah that flashes by in IM1, you can see another movie gaffe on the left side we see a commemorative plaque for some sort of Air Force/base anniversary with the year 1997! This photo couldnt have been taken, as Howard is supposed to be dead in 1991, and he looks younger in this photo than in the Washington Times photo with the story of his death.
We see with the magazine covers that Tony is not yet 21 at the time of his fathers death, which means that the year of his birth is later than 1970. The narration and magazines show Tony at 21 taking over the company, and the closest thing we have for a date here is the term information superhighway, which when we take into account Howards death in 1991, leads to a date of around 1993 (perhaps a bit later) for Tony to be 21 and take over the company. Which means that he is 36(?) when the first movie takes place. So if Howard was 25 in 1942, and Tony was 21 in 1993, that means Tony was born in 1972, making Howard 55 when Tony was born. Which also means that unlike the vast majority of the US that got on with making babies after WWII was finished (that whole Baby Boom thing), Howard didnt settle down and have a child for almost thirty more years? Seems a little far fetched to me.
Now on the other hand, if we take Howard Stark in Captain America as Howard Stark Senior, we can say he found a wife after WWII and they had Howard Anthony Stark in the late 40s. Which would push back many of the other dates. If Howard Anthony is born in the late 40s, then his lifelong friendship with Obadiah clicks with Stanes evident age in IM1. It also means he was only in his mid-40s when he dies in the car crash, not 74 as he has to be if he is Howard Stark Senior. This also gives Howard Anthony time to marry Maria and have Tony in the early 70s, thereby having Tony be 21 in 1993 (or a bit later) to take over the company.
I realize that many people want Howard Stark in Captain America be Tonys father. And even that the comics and a few bits that flow by in IM1 and IM2 have this as true, but with the war that Tony is injured in (thus necessitating his chest piece) going from Vietnam to Gulf War to Afghanistan over the years, we really have to have Howard Anthony Stark stop being involved in WWII so that he isnt totally old and decrepit by the time he has Tony. And with another Howard Stark in the family tree (Senior), this can be accomplished with little difficulty.
Also, I just took a good look over the notebook that is shown in IM2 with Howard's notes. I see Hypecube (and illustrations) mentioned, but I can not make out anything about the tesseract. -
Quote:Agreed, anyone that boycotts this over the adopted joke will boycott anything.Originally Posted by BrandX
I thought that was Thor's way of saying "Well, he's not a true asgardian" backstep type of deal, when he they said his brother killed 80 people.
I don't think he ever considered Loki less of a brother, even at the end of it all.
The adopted joke was funny, and those who boycott anything due to a joke will end up boycotting anything.
Also which is the greater test of Asgardian immortality limitations: THOR dropping 30,000 feet at terminal velocity in a Hulk Rage Cage, or Hulk turning Loki into a ragdoll?
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Quote:I don't think that was a gamble the Federation would take, also there is the idea that if certain parties like the Romulans or Ferengi knew that the flagship of the Federation had crashed on a planet they would likely send ships there to retrieve as much as they can for study.Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Veridian III was uninhabited, Veridian IV had the pre-industrial species on it. In the centuries it would take that species to even reach the third planet, the wreckage would be long buried by the forest.
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Quote:I'm sure Picard was rather thoroughly questioned about how he stopped a man with a super nova causing weapon and on the loss of the flagship of the Federation. Under oath he'd have to state truthfully that he failed at first and was swept into the nexus and then returned with Kirk to help him.Originally Posted by mousedroid
But... didn't everyone assume Kirk had died during the explosion onboard the Enterprise B at the beginning of "Generations?" As far as I know, Picard is the only one who even knew Kirk was on Veridian III.
Also per the Prime Directive, if there are inhabitants on the planet they would need to remove the remains of the saucer section and all debris and take Kirk's body home to avoid contaminating the culture or technology of the planet. The Federation keeps their tech and Kirk gets a heroes funeral. -
Quote:Well if he shows up I don't think they can call him Starfox these days.Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
That's true. But now that you mention pretty boys...wasn't Starfox an Avenger? I wonder if he might show up in the sequel to fight his brother Thanos. Or is the movie audience ready for a hero with super-orgasm powers?
We'd be more likely to get Drax the Destroyer, Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell before we get Starfox. -
Quote:Iron Man 1 states that Howard Stark helped develop the atomic bomb to fight the nazi's. The Howard in Captain America was Tony's father.Originally Posted by Samothrake
I'm not so sure about this, though it could be true.
What a lot of people are either forgetting, or just plain dont realize is that the Howard Stark in Captain Americas movie is not Tonys father. The Howard Stark in Captain America is Tonys grandfather Howard Stark Senior. Tonys father is actually Howard Anthony Stark. I know, having two Howard Starks in the line before Tony was confusing to me to for a short time.
Now according to IM1, Howard Anthony and Obadia Stane built the Arc Reactor in the Stark building. According to Stane, it was a publicity stunt to shut up the hippies. Now its possible that with what we saw IM2, that what Howard Anthony left to Tony that led to his inspiration to create the more stable element that powers his newest chest reactor could have come from Howard Seniors notes from his work on the Tesseract. On the other hand, any work Howard Senior did on the Tesseract would likely have been for the US government and not something he could talk about to his son, nor could he likely leave notes for Howard Anthony to inspire him. According to IM2, what Howard Anthony left for Tony was not something about the tesseract, but related directly to the new element that Tony comes up with because Howard Anthony didnt have the tech in his time to actually create. Thats why he left it to Tony.
I need to dig up my IM2 DVD because I think in the notebook from his father was the word "tesseract". Also in Avengers when Tony gets the data from Coulson in the beginning notice how he picks up the hologram of the tesseract and stares at it.
In Captain America, Howard Stark is studying that tesseract ammunition that Cap gave him and then basically splits the atom with explosive results. Love how he tries to sit up and says "Write that down!"
So thanks to that as well as studying some of the other weapons that Cap and the troops brought back, Howard knows that the Skull can wipe out the Eastern seaboard. Howard later retrieves the tesseract from the ocean. He knows it is a vast energy supply but he can't tap into it safely and I'll guess that Zola didn't help him with that. So along with helping on the Manhattan Project, he's also studying the tesseract and then tries to artificially recreate the tesseract or at least a piece of it as part of his energy research. Fury told Tony in IM2 that Howard was very close to making a breakthrough that would have made the nuclear reactors look like batteries by comparison but was limited by the technology of the times. Tony studies the notebook, figures out the clues and finishes his father's work. He creates the new element and it powers the arc reactor in his chest and now he expands it in Avengers to power Stark Tower. Tony clearly has changed in terms of being a weapons builder and now wants to help the world by finishing his father's work. -
Quote:It's also possible that Hulk grabbed the pilot as he ejected and threw him in a direction to avoid hitting the helicarrier and any plane debris.Originally Posted by Liquid
This actually explains a lot. I have no memory of that specific pair-off (I need to see this movie again, ARGH!) so that jives with an interview comment I read from Joss that was talking about how you don't want him to be transforming into the Hulk at that point, because he's actually mad at her (prior to your comment, I was like "why was he mad at her?").
I'm still not sure about the bit with the Jet pilot though. I just was thinking, maybe he grabs him in anger, realizes he shouldn't kill him, and then tosses him away in anger. -
Quote:When Banner becomes the Hulk I see it as that due to the fact that he is so overloaded with gamma energy and the power of the HULK that his mind gets a little clouded. Now throw in the fact that he was traumatized by an abusive father and that he watched as his father killed his mother when he was a kid and it gets easy to see why he has control issues.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe that's because the Hulk is "a bit of Banner" in terms of being a piece of Banner's subconscious in the first place. But I don't think Banner's literal conscious mind was in a fuzzy sense lurking in the Hulk. I don't see the Hulk and Banner as two different people where one is in the foreground and the other in the background alternatingly. I think the Hulk is a part of Banner he suppresses when he's not the Hulk. Another way of putting it is I think Banner is a different person when he's the Hulk like a drunk person is a different person when intoxicated, only to a much higher degree.
As to whether Banner and Hulk are truly separate personalities, the comic has gone back and forth on that for years. I think they are truly one being, just with a lot of internal rage augmented by the gamma power and that Banner secretly has the attitude of "who's puny now?" when he's the HULK. -
Quote:That scene about the guy saying "Or just good aim" is I think a nod to recent comics that showed that for all the years the Hulk was on his rampages, that deep inside his head Banner was "running the numbers" to help Hulk avoid killing people either deliberately or accidentally. Hulk's body count is rather low despite all the rampages he's been on in the comics.Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I think the movie alludes to their being bits of Banner and Hulk influencing each other. When Hulk falls off the jet, Banner says he was lucky he didn't hurt anyone when he crash-landed, but the old man says, "Or it was just good aim," which implies Hulk wanted to land somewhere with the least collateral damage. Not to mention he couldn't easily squished Black Widow or the pilot of the fighter jet and didn't.
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Quote:Banner seemed to remember the Hulk out on the helicarrier when he apologized to Black Widow when she said "I've seen worse". Banner and the Hulk definitely rattled her composure to say the least.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It occurs to me I didn't mention my favorite scene. Its the scene where Banner says "that's my secret Cap, I'm always angry" and then turns into the Hulk.
Earlier in the movie Banner tells the rest of them that at one point he did in fact try to stop the Hulk by attempting suicide: he put a gun in his mouth and "he" spit out the bullet. It reminded me of Peter David's last issue of his run on the Hulk where a future Rick Jones is telling the story about what happened to Banner after Betty Ross died. At one point he recalls that Banner tried to kill himself through increasingly bizarre and spectacular ways, and how it almost seemed like the Hulk was taunting him by letting him get very close to succeeding before changing and saving him.
So when Banner says "I'm always angry" and turns I was reminded of that same comic when Rick Jones recounts when he last saw Banner. Banner had come to say goodbye, and just before he leaves he stops, takes off his glasses, and then turns into the Hulk. No pain, no struggle, one second he's Banner and the next he's the Hulk. Jones remarks how odd it was, as if Banner had finally given in to the Hulk and for the first time he just let the Hulk emerge.
That's sort of what I saw. To me Banner was showing everyone how much he struggles with the Hulk by showing what it looks like when he decides to simply let the Hulk loose. No pain, no struggle, no drawn out transformation: the Hulk simply emerges. I found that to be a pitch-perfect encapsulation of the character in that one moment. What we normally see is Banner losing the fight with the Hulk he normally wrestles with constantly. What we see in that last transformation is what happens when Banner decides to stop fighting for a moment.
I also know there are people who think there are little hints that Banner is in there in partial control of the Hulk, but I think that except for the fact that the Hulk is Banner, or at least a part of him, I don't think that is the case. Rather, I think that unlike the first time the Hulk emerges on the Helicarrier this time Banner allowed the Hulk to simply emerge; his subconsicous and conscious mind were on the same page, and the Hulk behaved accordingly. Banner knew this was a time the Hulk was needed and needed to work with the others, so the Hulk instinctively knew that also and was far more cooperative. I don't think Banner even consciously remembered the events that occurred when the Hulk went on a rampage on the Helicarrier, so he couldn't have taken any satisfaction from sucker punching Thor. But the Hulk obviously remembered.
At least that's my interpretation of those events, and why I like that one moment in the movie. Its a little thing that evokes a lot of background on the Hulk, possibly better than anything in either of the actual Hulk movies combined.
Still it brings a nice smile to this Hulk fan's face when Cap says
"Dr. Banner, now would be a really good time for you to get angry."
"That's my secret, Captain. I'm ALWAYS angry!" Then he transforms and with one punch stops the war dragon.
People in the theater when I saw the film were busting a gut laughing when Hulk took care of business with Loki. As Loki was laying in the ground I yelled out "Ladies and Gentlemen, Loki has left the building!" people start laughing even more. -
Quote:The Mind Gem?? . We see what looks to be the complete infinity gauntlet in THOR in the Asgard vault, plus I can't see THANOS loaning any of the infinity gems to anyone. If he had any of the gems I doubt he'd need the tesseract. I think that energy on his staff was the same energy that was within the tesseract itself, but that is just speculation on my part.Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I read somewhere that the gem in Loki's staff was the Mind gem.
Regardless I got the impression that Loki's staff was influencing everyone in that room, making everyone angrier and angrier, trying to trigger the Hulk.
Actually I really liked the 200th episode "Life Before His Eyes" where Gibbs encounters a number of "dead" characters during a near death experience/alternate timelines.
Also yes, Loki was using his power through the staff to get everyone angry. What's funny though is that it was still legitimate anger as everyone in that room has frustrations and egos for Loki to nudge and twist until he provokes the Hulk.