Myrmydon

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Be thankful for what you have and quit complainging.

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Which is pretty much what my first post in this thread said, I'm just being nice about it.

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My thoughts about the old version of rage are based on not running perma-unstoppable. Believe it or not, you could not run that gimmicky build and still be unkillable in those days.

How would I change Rage's crash for now. Not sure, I could think of a few things that might work.
1) A 800% damage debuff. Enough to basically zero out your damage output for 10-15 seconds. You'd at least still benifit from taunt, and punch/aura-voke and be able to continue doing your job as a tank, but your damage would be nill.
2) A massive recovery debuff. Might be mitigated with CaBs, but I'm thinking there would be some way to reduce how much endurance a CaB could give you while under the influence. I know that there's a MM Poison power that debuffs regen as well as how much health you get from respites or self-heals.
3) Speed, Accuracy, Recharge debuffs...all more easily mitigated by buffs, accolades, other powers, etc.

Basically, the two things that drive me crazy about the Rage crash right now is not being able to taunt, and having some mob (or player in PvP) with a tiny sliver of health left and not being able to plink them down.

Conceptually, a damage/accuracy/recovery/recharge debuff would make a lot of sense. That's pretty crippling in itself, sure you could mitigate parts of them, but very unlikely that you could mitigate all of them at one time...certainly not by yourself.

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Don't forget:

4) Rebalance Super Strength damage and replace Rage with Build Up. Supposedly, Super Strength is balanced around Rage, so this is also a viable solution.


I would accept any of them if they can implement it without breaking more things in the game for months on end.

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I agree with Toc.
Back then u could also run unstoppable perma. & if u got stunned.... well u were still unstoppable...

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No one had any complaints about Rage until Perma-Unstoppable died out. That was when the mez effect really started to show. Besides, mez protection has been weakened quite abit now that Rage would be far worse to use in it's original state, I think.

Don't worry Jagged, we have plenty thinking to do as a Tanker now if we Tank on any setting above Heroic.

Trust me, guys, the Rage penalties now are far better than they used to be. The original Rage penalty was that you were very suseptible to mez attacks for the 10 seconds, but that was nearly unplayable. You would get mezzed, then die. (This was before Break Frees were set up the way they are now.) The next one they tried was making your end fall to 0. Unfortunately, this pretty much had the same dead effect that being mezzed did when you were in a mob heavy situation.

As annoying as that Rage drop can be sometimes, believe me, it could have been alot worse.

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I guess I look at it as the game goes and grows the complexity makes it harder and harder to add meaningful content.

Which got me thinking: If the game were frozen, never to change, how many would stay and play anyway? Besides me.

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Roughly 40% of the playerbase left when the drastic changes of I5 and I6 went live. I would say that most of the departures then were more due to the way that the Devs handled the whole thing as opposed to the game changes (Yes, the game did need some serious adjustment.). How much change is too much?

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A while back, the Devs were discussing examining the Blaster Secondaries to try to make them more effective. I know that Electric, Energy, and Devices get a lot of use from Blappers or mine + TP-foe'rs, but you don't see that many /Ice or /Fire. I believe that was mainly why they were checking out the Secondaries.

Just curious, but was this dropped, put further back on the schedule, still working on it, but not mentioned much?

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they lied to shut us up. worked too.

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Heh, that it did seem to.


Give the Ice Secondary a real 9th tier power!

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I just had an Invul Scrapper's Invincibility aura take the aggro of Vandal away from my Ice Tanker. Looks like either respec time for my level 27 Ice to get Taunt finally. I wish I didn't remember when Tankers were not required to take Taunt to tank an AV.

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I would point and laugh, but I am just too saddened to hear of a scrappers aura taking agro away from a tanks aura, especially CE.

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I used to do this in issue 2-3 all the time.

I'd say "Use provoke or taunt" and the tanker would say "But I have invincibility!" and I'd say "Just trust me" and they wouldn't, and I'd get aggro from the tanker.

Really annoying.

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Prior to this point, Kali, the only way I could ever take aggro from an Ice tanker was by using Taunt. The fact that a Scrapper can take AV aggro from an Ice tanker with Invincibility is appalling.

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Long and the short of it, while there are some small PvP thingies getting some attention (like _Castle_ posting about Brute Fury in PvP a few days ago) there are not any big PvP issues on the nearer term feature lists.

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That is the best thing I've heard from a redname in a goodly amount of time. No offense to the PvPers, but imo the devs have already invested way too much time in what is at best a minority interest.

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QFT

-- War

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I'm offended. Suppose a red name wrote they won't be spending time on badges (minority group) or bases (another minority group)? We all have opinions on what we'd like the devs to spend time on, but I think it is absurdly rude to come into the PvP forum and essentially kick all the PvPers in the head when a red name has just told them that they don't matter.


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The intention of my post was not to dash all hopes of any change in PvP, but to help illustrate why those changes hadn't been a hot topic with design. I know that a lot of their time, when it isn't currently spent getting Issue 8 out the door, is working on some of the very broad and exciting stuff coming in issue 9 that will add a lot to the game over all (inventions + other goodies).

I do really like the suggestion about trying to re-use the old event where everyone got a level 40 on Training Room to come PvP with. That sounds like it might have some good broad appeal and make for a pretty darn fun weekend. Of course, I haven't investigated it with the dev team and it might not be possible, but still a good idea to follow up on. Besides, I'd like to play a few different Archetypes myself at lvl 40 with a hord of other folks to blast at or along side with. Let's try and focus the discussion on things we can do under the current systems?

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Perfect idea, Lighthouse.

I just had an Invul Scrapper's Invincibility aura take the aggro of Vandal away from my Ice Tanker. Looks like either respec time for my level 27 Ice to get Taunt finally. I wish I didn't remember when Tankers were not required to take Taunt to tank an AV.

Actually, States, this comment here shows me that you have never been part of a true Super Group in the game. An SG is much more than just a chat chain; it's one of the keys to the game's long term survival. (I am writing from my experiences on the Champion server. For those of you on other servers, YMMV. )

A Super Group is much, much more than just a bunch of people that are connected by a window. SGs draw people of similar goals and outlooks and allow them to form social bonds within the game. Yes, there are many that form and collapse over time, but the ones that remain are due to the bonds created by the SG’s members. Anyone that has been exposed to this type of environment will know what I am talking about. The social bonds formed in a quality SG are strong and are often times the primary thing that keeps many players in this game. And here’s the point I am going to hit you right across the forehead with, States. Whether people are logging in just to chat a few minutes with friends or to finish a 17+ hour “Insane Shard-a-Thon Task Force” event, they ARE logging in.

My Super Group is one of the older ones on Champion, having been around for over two years as of this writing. It has gone from a near dead SG of only 5 members to being a family of players that enjoy the game together and with others on Champion. In this time period, I have used a single philosophy to maintain it: This is a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed. How can I make this game more enjoyable for my SG? That is my obligation as an SG leader to my members. As the game designer, you are our leader, in a sense. It should your obligation to us. Bases aren’t unpopular because players hate them; they are unpopular because you have failed to make them worth having. Make them appeal more to what people want and you’ll have a winner. People have posted plenty of ideas for making bases worth having, such as:

James_Joyce and Xoxman
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- make them cheaper
- let us place NPCs, scriptable bosses, and a scripted win condition in them
- let us open them up to other players to run as missions
- get raids working
- make them available to coh players
and see if that makes them more popular.



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I see threads with these types of requests over and over in the forums. You guys say your new mantra is “Give the players what they want, within reason”. Something along the lines of the requests in the quote above seem pretty reasonable to us. Don’t forget your obligation to us and we’ll support you 100%. I think you already know the final outcome if you do forget.

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A new twist to add to this thread, which explains the results seen by Dersk against Eochai: the inherent taunt of Pool Powers (Air Superiority, Kick, etc.) works on all critters for tankers. Brutes do not get any inherent taunt from these powers.

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That, good sir, is absolutely hilarious.

So, Tankers, let it be known, you really don't /have/ to take Taunt. Just skip your secondary and be Power Pool Man. I'm sure that's the better choice.

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Heh, I think I will try that on test when the veteran respecs come out. Just Jab and every Power Pool attack I can fit onto the character.

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Sorry if I missed this: do Provoke and Challenge work on AVs?

I am thinking of going with the pool on a new toon to get to the AoE fear power for theme reasons.

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They do but they require a to hit, so the slotting is different. You would need an Acc or two to make them work.

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It seems to me that a simple solution to this issue would be to add AVs/GMs to the player target version of Inherent Taunt effects, so that the tanker has a set % chance of taunting with melee attacks.


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/signed. This seems like a good compromise.

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Also, that ratio would require Tankers to continuously attack the AV to hold aggro. Interesting.

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I just rechecked this. It looks like Brute taunt auras (invincibility, mud pots) are exempt from this restriction. The inherent taunt of those powers apparently is set to work on all NPCs, but the Tanker equivalents do not.

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Well, I hope your "source" works both ways and gets that problem to a Dev.

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Indirectly, it did.

No comments on the gauntlet issue at the moment -- but I am reading the threads and taking notes.

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And that does not mean we are asking for Brutes to be brought down as well. Balance does not mean knock everyone into the gutter.

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iakona is right about that the aggro auras for Brutes.

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Yes, but I have dev confirmation that this a bug. Of course, it'll probably take months to get fixed.

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Which is the bug? Brute aggro aura's working or Tank aura's not working?

I'm guessing Brute aura's working but I can hope it is tank aura's not working.

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Whichever is the most beneficial is the bug. And yes, Circeus is right about the fix. It will take forever to fix because any bug that is a detriment to an AT takes forever to fix while and bug that might add some fun and flavor to the an AT is a priority.

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make taunt a clickable innate, and move gauntlet to a powerchoice in secondaries?

I'm curious if that's what you're suggesting.

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Yes, why not? I mean Brutes don't have Gauntlet, can hold as much agro as a Tanker does as easily. And according to iakona their auras still work vs the AV/Hero class of mobs.

That means Gauntlet is far less needed that Taunt. Which means it should be the inherent.

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This sounds vaguely familiar.

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iakona is right about that the aggro auras for Brutes. The Brute is really what everyone has been asking for from Tankers since I3 was on test. It's a dynamic AT that is alot of fun to play with good synergy overall. Any Tanker worth the name can hold aggro while playing a Brute and (here's the key ) ACTUALLY FEEL LIKE A SUPERHERO. I know, feeling like a superhero is far to much to ask in a SUPERHERO MMO, right?

Maybe they should make Gauntlet inherent and add some form of Def ramp to Tankers similar to Brutes. Wouldn't that solve most of the Tanker issues? Also, what if we are able to overcome some of our current limitations with Invention?

Looks fine for a starter guide, actually. Sure, there are a number of things to add, but they can wait abit. After the past year or so I do wonder about the role of a Tanker in teams, however, that is not the goal of your guide either. I would add my main piece of advice: Listen/read/ learn everything you can on Tanking and apply it to tactics that fit your playstyle.


At least until we can make Brutes in CoH.

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Agreed. It really is like the Devs want tanks to take the damage at all times except when it is really necessary. If taunt is our only useful tool against an AV, then that is more than a little absurd.

No AT should be defined by a single power in any fight.

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I wonder what powertool they will use to "fix' this one?

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Will we be able to do this? Can you give an example of what WONT work? I'm not sure what the PL angle is from a mission perspective, I'm hoping a "some ruin it for the rest" thing wont prevent me from just being able to drop any mission and get a different one or a different contact.


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Actually, UnicyclePeon, there is an easy fix to the whole PL problem that we have had several threads about. Just have everyone in a team lower than the active mission level SK'd directly to it (just like a PvP zone SK). Then, adjust the XP rate accordingly. Problem solved (if the tech can handle it).

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Pling is no longer a "problem". There arent 800 ppl spamming the channels. The Plers do their thing, the non Plers do theres.

Oh, and you're system would make the normal lvl grind...a [censored]. Nobody would enjoy that.

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Add in some double XP or some teammates.

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Will we be able to do this? Can you give an example of what WONT work? I'm not sure what the PL angle is from a mission perspective, I'm hoping a "some ruin it for the rest" thing wont prevent me from just being able to drop any mission and get a different one or a different contact.


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Actually, UnicyclePeon, there is an easy fix to the whole PL problem that we have had several threads about. Just have everyone in a team lower than the active mission level SK'd directly to it (just like a PvP zone SK). Then, adjust the XP rate accordingly. Problem solved (if the tech can handle it).

Cuppa, thanks for putting up with us the last couple of years and good luck with your new position. Maybe now you can join us some ingame.

Oh, is there any chance that we can get a "goodbye lifting of the perma-ban" for some of the old banned posters. Would be interesting to see how that would turn out.

Hmm, what about the badge missions? Would they award them for deleting the mission?

Would really be nice to drop those along with all of the "go to [insert zone contact here]" missions they love to give you on the hero side.

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Teleport reticle and Patron-granted Respecs are two I should have mentioned, but since our guys have already fixed those internally here, they fell off my list. Sorry.

As for players who think they will just be albe to drop every mission they get to PL off a contact... think again; we're crazy. Not that crazy.

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Take that, PL-Munchkin.

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Its ok, i have my missions already

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That's why I am asking for a mission deletion of every mission held by a toon when the patch goes live. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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Teleport reticle and Patron-granted Respecs are two I should have mentioned, but since our guys have already fixed those internally here, they fell off my list. Sorry.

As for players who think they will just be albe to drop every mission they get to PL off a contact... think again; we're crazy. Not that crazy.

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Take that, PL-Munchkin.