Mr_Grey

I suppose you're right about it being a "Cake" argument, but you're wrong about it being against Inherent Fitness. I stated quite clearly that I'm not against it.

I'm against it being a simple shift, because it's going to damage builds more than players expect it to.

And no, not every powerset requires four slots to be effective, but if you intend to have a lot of powers that do more for you than a temporary boost to your effectiveness like Aim or Build Up, then you're going to want to maximize your effectiveness, and you won't be able to do that with the slots you have available to these three new options.

Thanks for the snark.

I, for one, don't pick powers I don't intend to use. Even if it's rarely, I still use them.

I intend to have the new toys to play with as well, but I would rather be able to enjoy them without reducing the effectiveness of all my other powers. And if you give me that "Then don't put slots in the new powers!" nonsense, I'm will kindly thank you to stop playing at being so naive. Sure, I can play with powers without ever enhancing them, but then they're hardly as effective as typical play would require.

With the current slotting, with a typically expected Stamina build, I'm able to six-slot and five-slot most of my main powers and four-slot any ones that are emergency or utility. I won't be able to do that with most builds when I have three new powers to establish to a basic "four slot" potential.

Why is four slots basic? For "attacks," that's one accuracy, one damage or mez, one endurance reduction and one recharge rate. For Toggles, that's two Endurance Reductions and two of whatever the toggle improves. So, that'll be at least nine more slots I need to maintain the rest of my powers at their current optimums and utilize these three new powers.

Frankly, I feel this is a very valid concern.

Don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised when we don't get extra enhancement slots. I'm also not sad to see Stamina going Inherent (quite the opposite, actually, I'm extremely overjoyed). I feel it's bad I have to say that last bit; apparently "raising concerns" is tantamount to shouting "Dooooooom!"

I still feel that you can't simply slap the powers into a new section, leave the rest of the system as-is, and say "Okay! It's good to go!"

I still don't understand this. I don't understand why they would use good intentions when there are still so many more bad ones.

Except for the part where you have the dialogue option:

(paraphrased) "Powers Division? I don't recall joining the Powers Division!"

Where does it say this? If my character were a Power character, I guess I would run into it quite easily. At that point, however, the idea of having a moral conundrum over whether or not I should execute an enemy of the state on-site, without trial, is moot. I'm already there to be powerful, and I've got no problem icing somebody in the way.

Responsible characters, however, are given missions in which they're protecting the public. They're "doing the right thing" and are given little evidence that they're doing anything to the contrary.



Your character makes his/her own choice, but the system rolls on as if nothing happened. You don't get to make the policy decisions. You don't get to tell the PPD not to kill the criminal, nor do you get to oversee the interrogations. They tell you "Go, patrol, detain suspects" or "Go to this place and arrest this person," then say "We'll handle the rest." You're a cog in the big machine, and not a very important cog, either. If you don't do the job, they'll simply find somebody else who will.

Authors/Players know this. Characters do not.

Well, not a three-letter group. Really just a two-letter one: P.D. = Powers Division. All jokes aside, however, I never said anything about being hunted for no reason by the people I once worked for, nor was that the idea I was insinuating.

The major story behind Praetorian Earth is that the Praetors are REWRITING THEIR HISTORY. They are LYING TO EVERYBODY, and that includes the bright-eyed recruits, whether they're conscripted or not. While many older members of Powers Division are likely wise to the fact that they're "working for the bad guys," younger members are still being fed the same indoctrination bull dung that the rest of the populace is being fed.

It would be a massive risk to change that story while they're in training. You don't want impressionable minds with the power to level buildings with the rampaging energies within their own bodies to suddenly learn that their leadership is a despotic autocracy and that they're working for people who have no problem just slaughtering people in the streets because they feel like it.

Welcome to Comic Book World, where both happen rather frequently.

And again, I have to point out that Nazi Germany carried out its atrocities in secret, not in public. People had no clue as to what was happening to those in the concentration camps until the war was over. Even most of the Allies were thinking it was just propaganda and rumor until they actually found the camps.

It's not rare for the leadership to tell you that your enemies are willing to slaughter and eat children (and worse). In World War One, the Germans thought American soldiers could only get enlisted because they had no problem killing their own mothers.

Again, this is author/player knowledge, not character knowledge. Besides, we're not shown what Player Characters go through for their training. Considering the fact that we don't have a uniform for our characters to wear (heck, we can be wearing a Resistance outfit from the get-go, and nobody in Powers Division or the PPD even bats an eye), it could be just some basic "Here's how to not kill yourself with your powers" classes followed up with heavy indoctrination.

Now, for my own experience, I've been through military training. I got to see firsthand how a group of people are forced to endure the biased opinion of how "Our State is superior!" I got to listen to Marine instructors talk about how we were trying to "preserve freedom!" in Vietnam and the Persian Gulf. I also got to witness how the instruction shifted dramatically after 9/11/01, and I had to listen to all the horrible things Al Qaeda does to people.

We don't talk about the horrible things we have done or do, though. How many people know about the Tuskeegee Syphilis trials? The Japanese concentration camps? Or even just how many nuclear weapons we built or how destructive they were getting?

We still execute criminals in our nation. How do you look at capital punishment? Do you feel those trials are just a show? Do you feel it's barbaric or tyrannical? Do you feel that it's just another part of the system?

If you want to consider how your character views the world, take into consideration how you view the world. Take into consideration how the people around you view the world.

Again... Author knowledge is NOT character knowledge. Not until The Big Reveal, anyway. Until then, you're operating with assumption, hearsay, conjecture and propaganda.

It looks like you're trying to make an argument by veiling an insult. If you think I'm going to change my mind because you surreptitiously called me a Nazi, think harder. It's not the first time somebody tried this tactic with me.

Huh... Let me think... Oh, that's right... I DID! I had my character help Cleo rather than try to execute her. You're making the wrong argument here.

Actually, the point of my initial post was to show how I fit my conscientious character into this bizarre "All-or-Nothing" system.

Yes. It is. Not everybody knows what's happening to the "undesirables" as they're carted away. Most of the people in Germany were quite shocked to find out just how far the Nazis has gone.

Then you can take the 1984 concept. Even members of the Inner Party don't even know how bent and twisted the entire system is. Even people perpetuating the bending and twisting don't know all the ins-and-outs of it. They don't even know if there really is a Big Brother! The don't even know if there really is an Emmanuel Goldstein.

To be clear, there is no way your character can be certain that the atrocities he/she learns about are true until he/she sees them with his/her own eyes. Otherwise, it's all fear mongering and propaganda... From both sides.

Not my problem.

If I were to arrest someone, the decisions and behaviors of others in the system are NOT my responsibility. If I'm in a position to change any of it, then it is. Otherwise, I'm just doing my job as a protector of the people, and the people I arrest ARE doing things dangerous to the public good. Since I'm not in a position to affect policy change, I don't feel the guilt I'm being told I should feel. The system is bigger than me and my character. I simply made the arrest and capture, I didn't apply the shock baton, nor did I throw the executioner's switch.

Don't forget, Golden, they're lying to the members of the Powers Division, too. Those who take the Responsibility Path are the bright-eyed, naive fools who think everything is peaches and cream, just the way Cole wants them to. Those who take the Power path are being told they'll have a position of leadership and control (something that can't be delivered in an MMO unless Paragon offers jobs for completing certain story arcs, and that's not bloody likely). Not everybody knows the truth about the world the way (some of) the playerbase does. You have have to separate what the player/author knows from what the character knows.

Well, the inherent fitness is awesomesauce.

The rest is awesomegravy, awesomesteak, and awesomepotatoes. Granted, yes, everybody loves these things, but when there's awesomesauce, people usually just stick to raving about the awesomesauce.

Be careful not get any spilled on the groovypants.

I don't think ANYBODY can really sum up that difference in a single sentence.

The line between Hero and Vigilante used to be "Heroes don't kill."

But then, soldiers kill... And we still call them heroes. Police do, too. Sometimes, killing happens. It's not that it HAS to be done, but sometimes it's an event in the situation.

And there used to not be a line between Rogue and Villain.

Frankly, T, I think you summed it up perfectly with the idea behind a Code. That may be the best defining characteristic in the long run.

It's too bad the current system doesn't allow for us to plan such a strategy. Heh... It would have been funny, though, sneaking through the vents in the Talos Island bank...