Moonlighter
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If you plan on running with a tank and soloing on lower difficulties, /Elec has better killing potential. If you want to do crazy AV soloing, Rikti Challenge grinding 8/+2 it will be hard to build /Elec to the levels of mitigation needed for that.
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I love the look of Cloak of Fear, but I just don't have room for it, I don't have the end for it, and it wouldn't actually increase my survivability to any significant degree. Minion damage is not significant to a capped dark.
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Quote:I'd rather have 45 S/L, and 30 F/C and E/N personally, but only by a slight margin and the above is a good set up too.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you make the changes I suggested you should end up with melee defense around 38%, ranged between 30% and 35%, and your AoE will still be over 20%. And the Theft of Essence proc will go a long way toward solving your end problems, because Dark Regeneration is the biggest end hog in your build by a wide margin. -
Quote:Katana and Broad Sword rock because with DA/Parry you can build to 30 melee defense, cap with your primary, and then build ranged up to 40% of more.Originally Posted by Dromilin
Ok...
Just to ask the final question.... (if we assume - as I do now that DA doesnt Suck but in fact rocks)..
Which primaries work best with DA (Claws, Kat, Dual Blades...??)
Anyone....
Fire and MA are pretty good because they have enough single target attacks to support lots of Kinetic Combats to get S/L up to 45% and still get F/C and E/N to 30.
Other sets vary. I found it hard to get S/L up past 35% with Spines and Claws because they can't slot enough Kinetic Combats. You end up wasting slots trying to find alternate ways to slot defense which veers away from your primary attacks and defenses. So for sets with lots of PBAoEs you might want to slots Oblits and go for lots of melee and skimp of ranged and AoE defense. And by skimp I mean like 30 and 25 respectively. -
Honestly, for Fire/Dark I'd build towards typed defense and go for 45 S/L. You have plenty of single target attacks to support the Kinetic Combats needed for that, and a large percentage of the game has a S/L component. For the others you can still get a 30 to F/C and E/N with some work.
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If someone thinks Dark Armor isn't good they don't know how to build them. At least in my opinion. Having another Weave is really really powerful. To the point that for end game you don't even need OG or CoF.
Here is the magic formula:
~ For Broad Sword or Katana, build to 30% melee and 40% or more ranged, with a smattering of AoE which will hopeful get it to 30 or above.
~ For other sets build to typed defense and get S/L to 45 and E/N and F/C to 30 or more.
~ Make sure the +End is in your heal. Put a +End in both Stamina and Phys Perf. -
IMO the best secondary with MA is Shields.
But I could also say for every primary that allows it. AAO is just that good, and Shield Charge rounds out much needed AoE.
Quote:Don't go Gloom + Stuns. At the high end you'll just kill your DPS, even against bosses. The stuns on Cobra and EC are way too short.Originally Posted by SpiderTeo_OC
Dark Armor
The significance of this powerset is the Oppressive Gloom power. This toggle has a mag2 Stun aura in an 8 ft. radius. Stacked with Cobra Strike or Eagle's Claw, this power can reliably keep bosses stunned. However, both powers are not necessarily used in MA's optimal attack chain. On low global recharge builds, Eagle's Claw could still be used often for its burst damage, but otherwise a player has to choose between maintaining a DPS attack chain or going more for single target control.
The real strength of the set is the heal (best in game for PvE) coupled with an extra defense bonus in Cloak to help push your defense towards cap. If you can build up towards ~35% in melee and ranged the resists coupled with the great heal will make the mitigation very good.
IMO /FA doesn't have the survivability to work well with MA. You can make a fun kick around character, but you won't be able to grind 8 man or hunt big game because you won't be able to survive the higher settings. Leave /FA for primaries with more mitigation like Katana, Broad Sword, or maybe Dark with it's heal in Siphon.Quote:Fiery Aura
Some of Fiery Aura's PBAoE attacks could help round out Martial Art's lack of AoE attacks. MA's only AoE, Dragon's Tail, could also be useful to keep multiple mobs in melee range for Fiery Aura to do its work.
Good combo with MA. It has the survivability and doesn't need MA to contribute to survivability. The set can cap defenses, and MA has lots of single target attacks to slot Kinetic Combat. If you go this combo you'll want Hasten both to get Dull Pain perma and to get Dragon's Tail as low as possible on recharge.Quote:Invulnerability
Invulnerability's highest potential comes in herding multiple mobs around itself, due to the Invincibility power. But this does run counter to Martial Art's focus on few mob targets. Otherwise, the sets themselves are compatible but a player needs to be aware of varying levels of performance through the length of some fights, and whether fighting solo or on teams.
What he said. MA/Regen is fairly decent if you are willing to throw the money into it to get ~30 melee and 25 ranged defense. I don't like Regen on sets that don't have built in mitigation. The set's mitigation is too clicky. This causes it to cut into DPS, suffer when using long activation times, and die often to lag. There are holes when you are simply out of clicks. Some players love the active feel of the set though.Quote:Regeneration
This set is powerful and versatile so it works well with all sets. However, many of its core powers are click activated, which causes redraw for weapon sets. Because Martial Arts does not have any weapons to be drawn, some players who are decided on the Regeneration set might consider Martial Arts as an option. This is also a powerful set in solo or small team settings, which works well with Martial Art's focus. The synergy with this set also comes that Regen directly benefits from high global recharge, which is also necessary for MA's optimal attack chain.
Shields is king of the hill. Shield Charge is that extra AoE you need so you don't have to take /Fire. Great set, probably the best for scrappers.Quote:Shield Defense
This set can be used to increase the damage potential of a Martial Arts Scrapper. Shield Charge also supplements another AoE attack to assist Martial Arts against multiple targets. Shield Defense is a late bloomer, so damage mitigation from your primary, such as Crane kick and possibly Cobra Strike, would be useful in the early levels. The consensus here is that the damage potential of this secondary is what's most attractive.
Both of these sets work great with MA.Quote:Super Reflexes
This reliable set works well for all primary sets, including Martial Arts. Like Shield Defense, this is also a late blooming set, so using your primary for damage mitigation is definitely recommended, particularly at lower levels. Quickness is a nice for more global recharge, plus the defense powers allow for more opportunities to stack up global recharge bonuses.
Willpower
Just as Invulnerability, Willpower becomes more powerful when surrounded by more targets. And just as Invulnerability, a MA/Willpower Scrapper would need to find a balance between its primary and secondary powersets. -
Quote:I have seen -KB in CAK suggested here before. (Hell I might have even made the suggestion.) It would be awesome to be the scrapper set that can group with Energy/ and other knockback heavy sets and be able to keep the mob in one place. Not to mention negating my own Crane Kick.Originally Posted by Frosticus
It also lends support to the idea of adding 2-3 seconds of -kb to CAK. That way you can combo in to CK without worry of zeroing future damage. Which as of right now if you lead with CAK into CK it takes even longer for them to come back to you due to immob and/or slow, which is further contrary to synergy. The short duration -kb would allow CK to still function as it does now unless you combo into it. win, win and would mean less disruption to powers if people like them the way they are now.
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Quote:It is annoying no doubt. One thing I've learned to do is let the enemy live. I Crane Kick and immediately shift select the next enemy and take them down while the first is getting up and running back.Originally Posted by Frosticus
60% of the time, it happens every time.
I found Crane Kick to be the largest annoyance on my MA scrapper. I find it annoying like shout on my sonic toons (though in a slightly different way).
I want to use CK immediately because it is a high damage attack with solid DPA, but in doing so I will likely gut my damage because I have to run across the room to continue fighting them. I've found I either need to fight by a wall, or use CK as a finisher (like shout).
That means in many situations I have to eliminate CK from my attack chain (luts/bosses) or meet certain criteria such as having a wall or using ring of fire first, or leading CK with dragon tail (which makes no sense against a single target). If I don't meet that criteria the kb trends my dps toward zero.
I like the idea of kb on CK, but if you want to talk about secondary effects that have no meaningful place in the set you need look no further than the high mag kb on CK putting restrictions on attack scenarios that just shouldn't be prevalent.
It gets really annoying on the last rescued hostage when you mistakenly Crane Kick the last mob you have to defeat off the top of the factory map or something and then have to go chase them down into another spawn to finish the mission. -
Quote:Sadly, it might be the best attack outside of Storm Kick we have. The DPA might not quite be as high as Crane Kick, but then again I am not kicking my targets away from me.Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
On any of the MA Scrappers I've made past and present, I have never taken these two powers: Cobra Strike and Crippling Axe Kick.
Now that BAB fixed the animation and put the sound in the right place the attack flows much better than it's reputation from back in the day when it was mistimed and had bad sound placement. The alternate animation is not bad either; though it doesn't flow as well as it good because of the "wind up" with the fist to round out the longer time.
Without CAK what is your attack chain? Are you using Thunder Kick? EC? -
Another option for farming is an aura set (Dark, Elec, or Fire) coupled with Broad Sword or Katana. With Slice these sets have middle of the road AoE, but the damage aura coupled with Parry/DA's massive increase in survivability actually makes them pretty competent for farming.
The general issue I have with the aura sets outside Katana and Broadsword is I cant' get 8/+2 survivability out of them.
Also, unlike Spines or Electric, Katana has excellent single target damage and the ability to slot a -Resist proc so you won't want bang your head against the keyboard when taking down hard targets. -
Quote:Impale. Personally I believe every melee set should have an Immobilize of some sort but that's neither here nor there.Originally Posted by Sailboat
Is that really true? I can't think of one in Fiery Melee...or Broadsword/Katana...or Claws...Really just Dark Melee's Midnight Grasp and Martial Arts' CAK.
I still don't get why people are focusing on Crippling Axe Kick. It's clunky, but really changing it would do nothing to fix the set. I guess it could get a big boost to improve the set's performance, but if they did that then nothing would really change. The set would still use SK - CAK - SK - CK, and people would still skip all the other powers. The tier 9 would fall even more behind if CAK was improved and people would have even less reason to use EC.
I personally would rather have the set tweaked in a couple of areas. A total redesign makes me nervous. I already have MA characters that I am invested in. My preference is to save the cutting edge design ideas for staff/polearm and whatever other sets are coming down the pipe. -
I just wanted to reiterate a point from earlier in the thread:
To be useful in a single target attack chain, Eagle's Claw must either be reduced in animation or be boosted in DPA to a very high level due to Storm Kick. If the animation time stayed the same and it got a small DPA boost, using it will delay Storm Kick in the attack chain and it will still be skipped because it will reduce over all DPS. A reduction of a half second of animation time is necessary if you want it to be useful for single target. -
Quote:If you are saying that the DPS performance of scrapper primaries is irrelevant to balance then I obviously disagree and I have to wonder why, of you feel that way, you'd bother posting in a MA balance thread at all. If you feel like you have the moral high ground by not worrying about the specific DPS numbers then great but why are you even reading this thread then?Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This thread brings to mind something that has occurred to me before, but I'm not sure if I've voiced.
Knowing the numbers and being able to crunch them is a good thing.
But, when you start simply discarding entire powersets as worthless because their DPS doesn't meet an arbitrary amount, that's taking it a little too far. I hate to tell you this, but DPS is NOT the only thing that is important. Sure, high DPS sets tend to perform better when doing things like soloing AVs, but when you're just smacking minions and LTs around, who cares if you're not running the most efficient attack chain?
I like fiddling around with the numbers myself on occasion (though I don't take it to the spreadsheet extremes that some do), but at the end of the day the only thing that's REALLY important is the answer to this question: Is this set fun to play?
And if you're one of those people that only has fun playing whatever the highest performing set is this week, I don't know what to tell you.
(This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just felt like sharing my thoughts on the matter)
Plus, no one in this thread has harped on the set's overall damage chain so I am not sure where this is coming from. The points that have been brought up:
~ Eagle's Claw isn't worth using
~ Cobra Strike isn't worth using
~ Crippling Axe Kick has poor secondary effects which could be fixed
~ Overall the set has poor AoE with nothing to compensate
~ Overall the set has poor mitigation with nothing to compensate
~ Overall the set has poor utility with nothing to compensate
The latest discussion was whether Crippling Axe Kick would be a good starting point to fixing the set.
The only time DPA was discussed was in regards to EC not being worth it and the fact that the set has nothing to compensate for it's lack of AoE including single target damage. -
Quote:I kind of agree. Spending time messing with CAK while there are so many powers that need much more attention seems odd to me. It feels like the main concern here is that CAK doesn't neatly fit into some conceptual balancing framework, but in reality the power is not causing problems with MA.Originally Posted by Frosticus
CAK is one of those attacks that works exactly like you expect it to.
Crane Kick's knockback, on the other hand, fits perfectly well into the conceptual design paradigm but the fact that I am kicking away targets I am trying to defeat with melee is a much bigger detriment to playstyle than the hodge podge effects stacked on CAK. I even was defeated once because I reflexively hit Crane Kick and kicked a Circle of Thorns Earth Mage out of the quicksand and couldn't get to him before he finished me and he only had a sliver of health.
The first fix should be to Eagle's Claw. After Cobra Strike is pretty useless. Even my lowbie scrappers can afford to take the time to put out a short stun. The sad thing is that the only area where Cobra is actually useful, detoggling Lts. with ToHit debuff auras, is negated by the very ToHit debuff you would be trying to eliminate. -
Quote:Wait, didn't you previously state the opinion that changes that would kill MA in PvP would be bad?Originally Posted by Donna_
I would suggest if anything...
Focus Chi - (instead of Build up effect) - Increases the chance for Crits and %'s on proc chance for damage for x number of seconds. -
Quote:Please no. MA provides burst damage and because the attack's base damage isn't reduced to compensate for a persistent damage buff it makes full use of +Damage effects. Rebalancing the set to provide a persistent damage effects has several side effects that would be bad to add to an existing set:Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
I'm going to post my standard fix for MA. Change focus chi to a persistant damage buff (something like rage, but doesn't have to be exactly rage).
~ +Damage is devalued both from sets and from friendly buffs.
~ MA loses burst damage
There are plenty of melee sets already with persistent damage buffs.
While single target status effects are devalued in high end play, persistent defense buffs like Parry are awesome. MA could be given a self defensive buff as part of an attack, such as +defense as part of Cobra Strike. MA could also be given some utility as well to help it out.Quote:Playing with secondary effects is fun and interesting conceptually. Even playing with the mechanics of the effects to make them more benifitial might seem to be of value. However, in a game where either through power selections, through builds, or through teaming, we're dropping the to-hit chance of badguys to very low levels, there's very few situations where I'd trade damage for more status effects, especially on a scrapper. The current state of the game is one where power isn't measured in wins and losses (we can all win in 99.99% of the tasks in this game)... it's measured in speed of success. For example, a 25 minute ITF is considered more successful then a 60 minute ITF. Even if you're not going for speed and you're attempting to kill everything, you'd rather do it in less time. In the last 63+ months of play expirience, I think I've been on a TF that failed 2 times... in both of those times, status effects from a scrapper would not have helped... additional damage from a high-end scrapper would have.
MA would need a lot of changes to make it "valued" in a giant group setting beyond killing all the bosses. If you tried to make it into a group set then that generally means persistant AoE effects which completely change the set's current single target focus. I have to wonder if the devs would provide AoE debuffs without making the set pay even more in the single target department.Quote:With that in mind, if you're on a toon that has low damage, it needs to have something else contibuting to the speed of success at typical tasks, or you'll be on an under valued toon.
This doesn't mean the only answer is damage. There could be some new new status effects that do something to improve speed of teaming. Just thinking quickly, if Martial Arts had an AoE debuff power that reduced the maximum attack range all affected enemies to 7ft, there'd be demand for MA toons to help herd groups of badguys into the kill zone range of a team's AoE attacks. I'm not saying that's a fix for MA... but what I'm saying, that's the type of "new" thinking needed to determine a way to improve an underperforming set. A set needs to increase success speed of some major aspect of the game or it's going to be percieved as weaker then other sets. -
Quote:Strangely, despite the sorted history it's one of the few things that are working in the set for me. In actual game play CAK doesn't interrupt my fun, fits into my best attack chain, and is actually useful against some annoying situations like those stupid CoT mages that keep running away. While I wouldn't exactly complain about a revamp to the power, it's low on my list of things I'd like to see fixed in MA.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When I finally get MA looked at, you'll know it when CAK is significantly altered.
Also, if you take away the Immobilize or -Fly you are taking away a semi-decent PvP tool. I would like seeing a -Jump in addition to the -Fly in the power though. -
Eagle's Claw needs love, and Cobra Strike needs something as well. It could be buffed as a control, but I think making it do decent DPA is more in the line of other melee damage sets and gives this set some attack chain options.
I'd like to see a unified secondary effect but that would be gravy. -
For Eagle's Claw, what if they used sleight of hand to up DPS without increasing damage, either by adding a bleed effect or a resistance debuff?
I'd like to see Eagle's Claw changed so it was worth hitting and Cobra Strike changed so it did competitive damage. Then I'd have lot's of options to make an attack chain. I get that the set isn't an AoE and I can live with that.
Changing Storm Kick to an AoE would move it to a different damage table and basically destroy the one good attack MA gets.
Quote:lol, pretty much.So is Storm Kick our Psychic Wail? Our one awesome power in a set of "good enoughs"?
I like the current devs, but I just can't respect a balance formula where you can shave 1.5 seconds off the animation time and make the attack have ridiculous DPA and the "balance" formula isn't disturbed.Quote:240 damage means that you would likely have a 20-25 second recharge time and an endurance cost of roughly 18-20. -
Quote:This is a really good point. The rest of MA is always affected by the reality that anything that delays the next Storm Kick will reduce the damage of the set because Storm Kick is sooo good.Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem with attempting any fix that would place EC into top tier attack strings is that you've got to make the attack competitive with Storm Kick, which is very unlikely to happen because it has extremely high DPA and a very short recharge time. Unless the attack gets a massive overhaul and starts dealing in excess of 80-90 DPS, Storm Kick is still going to be the better attack and, because of this, it will be bad to delay its use by using another attack. Because of this, it's even more effective to have the animation time of EC reduced rather than the damage increased: with a 2.03 base animation time, the attack wouldn't interfere with the use of other attacks to the same extent that the current animation does.
I think it's long been the opinion of many that MA underperforms. The issue is that it is "good enough" that the set is playable, and that pushes it down the list of things to address.Quote:Actually, the devs have simply determined that MA is sufficiently within the realms of "normal" that it doesn't immediately deserve to receive treatment. This doesn't mean that if players actually demonstrated a lower level of performance (which many players have been doing for a remarkably long period of time) that the set could get a boost. Getting a boost has nothing to do with giving anything up. Very little in the way the devs design the sets is zero sum, especially when you get into tweaking specific powers for overall set performance.
I think the fact that Storm Kick is the sole reason the set is even viable complicates the issue. This means that the problem can't be solved with a couple of minor tweaks. -
Quote:It is fairly easy to slot a damage/knock back if people want the knock back without affecting performance. I don't see that as a big issue, and it certainly didn't stop the devs from fixing countless other powers to use knock up.Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I'd like knock up instead of knock back personally, but a lot of people like the knock back, so I can't see changing that.
I agree. The set needs some minor adjustments, though. After playing EM and seeing how stun heavy it was and how hard the tier 9 hit I couldn't help but feel it was superior in every way to MA.Quote:Some minor buffs would be nice. They need to tread carefully, though, as the primaries run in a fairly narrow performance band. I'd like to see buffs done with the same restraint they showed when buffing Invulnerability. Just enough to make it very solid, without so much as to attract complaints of it now being overpowered.
The DPA of Eagle's Claw really should be raised by upping the damage or adding a bleed component.Quote:My only vague suggestion would be to make the secondary effects more useful. The chance of stuns just don't seem to cut it in practice.
If Cobra Strike did excellent single target damage it would bolster single target capabilities while reducing the need to rely on Crane Kick.
It could also use some overall utility to make up for the lack of AoE. -
With another brand new melee set coming when is MA going to be tweaked to be brought up to par? I've been leveling a EM Brute recently, and as much as people complain that EM has been over nerfed the set is like MA on steroids. It has a energy component for high resistant enemies, the stuns are plentiful and come naturally while doing damage, and the top tier attacks hit like a truck.
MA on the other hand is pretty lack luster. It's playable; I don't want to exaggerate it's weakness but it is badly in need of some tweaks.
~ The tier 9 is terrible. Can Eagle's Claw please be brought up to equal the other tier 9 abilities? My long recharge tier 9 shouldn't reduce my DPS.
~ No utility. The set is S/L and has no utility. It has no endurance management, no overall secondary effect, nothing.
~ The mitigation is bad. The stun from Cobra Strike is enemic, single target, and takes a whole activation cycle while doing no damage. If I wanted a single target mitigation tool then Air Superiority is heads and shoulders above this power. At the very least make Cobra do good damage so it is almost as good as the EM attacks.
(Or give MA another mitigation power in addition to Dragon's Tail that works against multiple foes.)
~ Make Crane Kick do knock up and allow it to use Cobra's alternate upper cut animation. Or make Cobra Strike do equal DPA so I can drop Crane. Though honestly I'd love an upper cut animation attack that did knock up.
~ This set with it's lack of AoE and S/L damage should not be doing middle of the pack single target damage. -
Thank the gods. My experience as villains has been terrible because of the market. This is a great change.
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Quote:That pretty much sums it up.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
On the topic of the RNG deciding that it's had enough of you, it happens to me fairly often when running at +4. And that's with tough stacking on the passive scaling dam-res.
That resistance just gets leapfrogged. If I'm being slashed at by 3 +4 rikti chief soldiers, it's not at all unlikely that a drone will get a hit in right before 2 of the 3 bosses also get lucky.
And then it's time for a hospital trip.
SR excels at dealing with massive amounts of incoming attacks that don't deal massive damage in a single hit. That's when you can leverage the PSDR.
While I have defeated many an AV without aid self, if your plan is to often find yourself up against them, it may be a good idea to take it. I never will but that's only because I hate all its downsides.
In the Cimer TF for example, my /Shields could under duress solo spawns but I got one shotted by the minotaur/cyclops on my /SR. It happened twice in the same mission. Kind of embarrassing actually.
But I don't want to give the impression that /SR isn't very good or I don't like my main. I do, and it is.