Memphis_Bill

There's a reason the Hive has a player limit. The old Hive didn't have one (essentially.) Raids were a slideshow, not to mention a large number of people there didn't participate. (Didn't have to, really.) All they had to do was wait for Hamidon to get held, jump in and Brawl it once to get an HO.

Your imagination?

... you don't get debt from a PVP defeat.

Not capable of. For reasons pointed out previously. Not to mention unlikely because, well, swinging from island to island in Nerva, for instance, would just look ridiculous. If it were in a solid city setup (where you could at least reasonably expect a line to "grab" something,) or temporarily in a jungle (vine to vine,) not so much.

IOW, see Steampunkette's reply.

And if it's too wide for you (I have a v1 G15 as well,) look in to the G110. No LCD, 12 instead of 18 keys, and it fits nicely compared to a regular keyboard. (The G15 was wiiiiiide.)

Incorrect. They were not feasable due to time and manpower investment from a drastically reduced (15 person) staff. I believe the statement was "Sure, we can do them - but you won't have anything else for at least a year."

Then NCSoft bought them, ramped up the staff and funding, and ooooh, look, colors.

Except that's not the case. Player B, if he defeats player A (who they could presumably meet at a meteor or firebase, both players going for shivans,) would get another code or meteor fragment (or be able to "steal" their scientist in WB,) thus advancing their OWN goal. Yes, it resets the *other* player's progress, but it's not true to say "in no way does engaging in PVP bring him closer to his goal." Leaving the zone, conversely, wastes *all* the time involved, as you don't keep shards or codes.

Far too simplistic, I'm sorry. You assume they're both there only for one reason. Player A could be there regardless. Player A could be doing the *same thing* as player B, and see Player B as a way to advance their own goals (see prior reply.) If player B isn't there, he's still goign to go do his thing. Or attack NPCs. Or badge hunt. Or work on time badges. Or do any number of other things, including "just wait."

Hell, player A could well decide to *help* Player B. Of course, if Player B just runs away, they'll never know that - that whole "nobody's psychic" bit again.

Yeah, we're going to have to just drop it and agree we won't agree. (I can turn the above into ... well, several PVE situations.)

About the only time I could see me agreeing with "it's a problem with design" is if there were something in the zone *required* for you to progress with your character. ("You won't be able to hit Security Level 30, get further XP or rewards, until you defeat other players," for instance.) For instance, I was one of those who argued that having the warzone liason *inside* the zone (your "Go talk to..." mission) was not a good decision, that it forced those who wanted nothing to do with PVP into the zones and held them up from getting other missions. The developers agreed that this was bad design and moved those liasons outside the zone.

That's the only example of anything *required* that was in that situation.

Besides, the design of turning player against player is directly why those rewards you're striving so hard for ARE as good as they are. Would you bother if it were a single-recharge, 3 use Shivan minion?

And as I was saying just in another post, you're making a big assumption on that. A HUGE assumption. None of mine are built to PVP. None of mine are built with it in mind. What *keeps* you from fighting back against - using the last character I was in a PVP zone on - a shoddily slotted lvl 17 Ice/Cold dom that runs out of END fast?

And, again, I don't know that that's you. I don't know you don't want to fight back. I don't know your "Just here for..." anything. I don't know that getting you started in a fight WON'T get you interested, or that AFAYC it's just a quick way back (in BB) to get inspirations, come back and clean my clock. Because, after all, those same IOs, inspirations, XP, etc. help YOU out as well.

Seriously, I suppose I should be flattered that it's assumed I, and most other PVPers, have this godlike knowledge of everyone and perfect prescient view of cause/effect so we know who to attack, who'd just leave, etc, but it's really a poor assumption for you (generically) to make.

Look, if you don't like my answers - which are not being given in snark, but completely bluntly - I can't help that. And even with this statement quoted above, you're ignoring something I've stated earlier - that that very exposure which "hinders" you has brought others around to participate in and even *enjoy* PVP.

I don't know which you (generically) are. And if I ask, I might get an answer - even from you - which would otherwise turn out to be false. ("No, I hate PVP" versus, afterward, "Hey, this is actually kind of fun.")

You can't have just one result, ignoring the other that doesn't suit your point - and you're telling me ("me" representing "all PVPers," in this statement) that I should somehow know well in advance what the result of attacking you will be. I'm not psychic.

For all I know, you're leaving to get a more PVP-able character - leaving your team-build-heavy, low-ish offense Sonic Disruption character, say, to come back on a blaster. Or to get friends. Or any number of other things. For that matter, I don't know *you.* ("You" being "my target," again, not specific.) For all I know, the person I'm attacking is - to pick my usual example of a knowledgable PVPer - macskull. I don't know his global, I don't know his characters. He could have decided "Ya know, I haven't fought in BB with a level 17 character in forever, it could be a fun change" and proceed to wipe the floor with me. Or it could be Noobly McNooberson who isn't sure what these "enhancement" things he was getting from levels 1-3 are, but left them in his tray because they could be important, and is now cruising around the zone in his 42 Scrapper with no enhancements and weird powers.

I do play tanks frequently. That aside, the same can be shot *right back* at your own arguments. You make a lot of assumptions, as well as say *I* should somehow be able to guess things I just can't.

Except... there have always been rewards for PVP. Not the same magnitude of rewards, no, but they have always been there (bounty and rep.)

For you, the option of leaving, one way or another, has always been there. And yes, I'm going to make the same argument - by entering the zone, clicking "ok" on the dialog that explains it's a PVP zone and you may be attacked, by clicking through the "Talk to the Liason" dialog, and *staying in the zone,* I can only assume you're fully informed of and willing to take the risk of me attacking you.

If we had world PVP suddenly thrown on us (Aion-style rifts, say,) I could understand (and actually be behind) people saying "Hey, I don't want to PVP, I just want to finish my mission without interruption." But given you have to go out of your way and acknowledge ALL the PVP related stuff, I can only assume you're willing and are giving me permission to attack you. That permission is revoked when you leave the zone.
Depending on your definition of "prepared for PVP" I can make several arguments here.

First echoes the above - you are informed of the fact you may be attacked, that you are entering a PVP zone. You're given an option to leave (even a 30 second safe window.) You've got to talk to the liason. You've got to acknowledge a dialog that you may be attacked, etc. Saying otherwise is like going to a movie theater, buying a ticket, popcorn, a drink, sitting down and then being startled that a movie is playing.

The other ("You came prepared for PVP") definition - that I'm on a PVP specific character, built towards or even optimized for, PVP, is purely an assumption on your part - and on all of my characters, an incorrect one. I play the same build in PVP and PVE. Now, yeah, others DO build for PVP, but "some" is not "all," or even, I'd hazard, "most."
See above. I have no idea if you're a person who has PVPd 5 hours a day since the Arena came out, or someone who just converted a trial to a full account and can barely spell PVP. I have no way of knowing this at all. Similarly, you have no way of knowing that about me.
You assume. And often, I have to say, incorrectly.
And which, by design of the zone, I'm there to stop you from completing.
I don't? I don't know if you have friends around. I have to watch my back. I have to watch for the NPCs. I have to keep myself from being ambushed. And no, I can't trust you when you say "I'm just here for..." - from experience, I've had people use that to try to stab me in the back before.

Possibly better than you think. Edit: Possibly better than if you were solo, as I might say "That's out of the way, need a hand?" (which is not unheard of.)
100%, if you defeat me.
Depends on if you can avoid me, and how well your character can handle the NPCs and firebases.
Depends. How does your character do on its own? I've seen some that just can't "get" how to defeat a firebase, and would (as that player on that character) seemingly have a 0% chance.

I understand the question, but I don't think it's really addressing what the PVPer *gets* out of it.

If we took away *all* rewards related to defeats (while leaving the defeat at "you lose nothing,") do you really think the answer would be the same as it is in the current in game situation?

Look at the rewards. Yeah, you get a shivan (say,) or a temp power. I get a chance at a recipe that's running at several hundred million INF, an inspiration, further progress on my character (XP) - what's the real incentive for the PVPer NOT to attack? Even if I were "meh" about PVP but had a character I thought did decently, that's an incentive for me to go in and try to defeat others regardless of their purpose in the zone. If anything, it should be an incentive for you to try to attack me *back,* as not only do you get your shivan most likely, but could come away much richer.

It's something that I don't think can be ignored - which the people saying "Just leave them alone" are ignoring (or ignorant OF.) Both sides have a reward to lose.

While you're asking that, don't forget that killing an enemy - *whether they fight back or not* - rewards the victor, and I don't mean in a personal, emotional way but in an (in-game-wise) tangible fashion:
- Chance for (high-payoff, either in sale or use) PVP recipe
- XP
- Inf, IIRC
- Inspirations
- Bounty/Temporal Points
- Rep

Being defeated by a player, conversely, costs the defeated nothing but time. They don't get debt/lose XP/lose patrol XP, they don't lose inspirations or levels. They may lose rep, sure, but if we're looking at a "non PVPer," are they going to care?

So, are you asking "Do you get visceral pleasure out of the act," or "Is the various in game sorts of payoffs worth defeating someone not fighting back?" Because if the second is not fair/immoral/"wrong," somehow, we need to remove Controllers and Dominators from the game, as well as all stuns and similar status effects from player actions.

Basically, what I'm saying is if you're trying to get a "glimpse of the PVPer mindset," you'd have to do so in an environment where there are no rewards whatsoever - and I don't mean shivans/temp powers, but where you kill someone, they respawn, you go at it again, with absolutely nothing gained by either side - a situation which does not exist in this game.

I'm being argumentative here and not accepting this for a reason - For several, in fact. One is that there are already *only* four PVP zones. If we took the (unstated, but implied that "too few people are interested in it THIS way") argument that, well, we should take those away and rework them for this OTHER community - well, then why do we still have villainside? The same argument's been made that "nobody plays," it's "dead" (and "will be even more dead after GR") and the like. Is it *right* to take an area designated for one segment of the community away just because another segment wants it - and doesn't like that first segment?

What if the RP and PVP communities were reversed, and we were talking about just taking Pocket D away from the RP community so the PVP community could enjoy a nice "bar brawl" atmosphere without those pesky RPers trying to "make peace" and interrupt fights?

I can tell you I'd be arguing loud and long to protect that area for the RPers to just come and go as they please (without having to go into AE, or an "arena," or anything similar.)

The other is that I have - more frequently than you'd probably think - had people who were "not interested in PVP" BECOME interested from doing so. Every single time? No. But often enough that THAT goal is still valid. Those people wouldn't go to an arena because, at the start, they *aren't* interested. (They often end up learning something about their class, as well, like the mastermind who was furious at me for attacking him when he "obviously didn't have a chance" - but wasn't even aware of bodyguard mode until I asked him why he wasn't using it to help himself survive.)

Quarrantining PVP to the arenas would eliminate that. And I wouldn't call that fair to anyone.

Yes, it does. I've done that as well - it's nice having a SG with members on both sides. And one of my favourite "serial opponents" on my PB was a stalker. In her bio, she mentioned "hating being called cute." We had several months of back and forth whenever we'd run into each other in zones. Unfortunately, I don't think they're in game any more.

And yet the PVPer is denied bounty, rep, and progress towards their own rep badges, if they're going after that, not to mention the reward drops (including potential PVP IOs.)

If you want to argue "let them run over the badge first?" fine.
Very broad-brushed "suggestion" there. Again, see above for what you're asking someone to give up - nobody promised a "fair" fight. If I see someone I'm hunting and they're down on health? I don't want them to heal up, insp up, and come at me at full health. I want them dead.

Fiteclub = arena. And what if we're talking about a bunch of lvl 15-20 PVPers attacking a level 50 (with access to up to level 30 powers, thanks to SSKing rules, which do still apply) - is that still "rude?" Or should the level 15 saunter up and tap the guy on the shoulder so he can have the floor wiped with him?

Your "rules" are, frankly, naiive and unrealistic.
The rules that exist (and yes, there are some) are the ones put in place by the dev team. If you want to add more to yourself, feel free. Don't complain when others don't abide by them, or say it's not "fair," or that you're going to /petition them for not playing *your* way.

This is - well, not always true. It tends to be case by case.

For instance, I've attacked others just for being there and on the opposite side, regardless of what they're playing. And - well, yesterday, in fact - I was on an ice/cold dom, found there was another hero in zone. Tracked them down, saw they were having trouble in general (only ninja run, having to heal to keep from getting killed a few times on one turret) and decided to help them out instead. Had they turned around and shot at *me,* I'd have happily finished them off.

Others will attack the other side regardless, still others will help unless attacked or just avoid people as best they can.

In WB, probably because of the levels involved (it's hard to be mostly helpless at 30-38/43) I see much less "mercy" involved - it tends to be almost universal "kill on sight."

Arenas work that way, basically.

Personally, I prefer being able to pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones. Could be empty, or I could find myself suddenly in the middle of a full team of the other side's players. It's far more interesting that way.

Strangely, I made similar (not the same, I believe mine had to do with getting access to the firebases in the first place requiring defeating a villain) arguments one of the last times and was told "No, that's gameable, just have someone log in a villain and stand there to get beat up - no actual PVP happens so it's still PVE!"

Yeah. I pretty much gave up on that person at that point.

Here's a way to avoid that mistake in the future:

Replace "PVPer" with "Person." Amazingly, not one-dimensional people who do nothing but PVP. I PVP. I also RP. I also an a costume hound. I also go after lore and story arcs (example: writing out the initial AE guides, and doing the Kheldian backstory guide, both linked in my sig.) I play with other people who will PVP, who RP, some of whom are costume hounds, others who pursue "perfect" builds, soft caps, concept builds and the like.

So, in short, yes, some PVPers actually can and do "read stuff."


Result:
- Rewards in PVE zones get taken away and/or nerfed, per prior dev statements.
- PVE-only people then come to the boards and complain loud and long how it's "not fair they have to deal with PVP to get the good stuff."

Same arguments, just slightly changed, continue.

No, everybody's *not* particularly happy. You make assumptions about PVPers not being "bothered about narrative." As well as prior dev statements about the powers, *and* the difference between the arena's scheduled, arranged matches and the completely random flavor of the zones.

There are *four* PVP zones. The only zone type there are less of are co-op zones (two, three when Pocket D has missions going.) How about not getting rid of them?

You want instanced versions, push for more missions using an instanced version of the zone - minus, or with appropriately *weakened and limited,* per dev statements - versions of some of the temp powers - for some PVE missions instead of saying "Blah, PVPers don't care, just take it away from them and let us get our shinies."

Because, after all, the people who are trying to use the zone as designed (the PVPers being complained about for actually attacking someone in said zone) have no right to do so, right? The Shiney-Without-Risk-Of-PVP folks should have their interests outweigh it!

Sorry, doesn't fly.
No. (And as far as weighing in, yes, I do. Don't like it, you also have the option of not reading the thread.)

/this,

And, /this.

/this, and three.

Oh, tried the other game too. As I recall, I found tunneling really annoying when I had to turn off my travel power to get around some obstacles everyone else could just keep zipping through... like doorways.