Maelwys
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Posts
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I'm trying to decide between two setups for my next Tanker.
I've two builds for a Elec/DM that're aimed at combining High DPS and High survivability.
I may post the builds later on, but the specifics aren't particularly important, beyond the below:
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Concerning Survivability
In each build I manage to hit the 90% Mark for S/L res (and 90% E, 50% N, 62.5% F/C and 70% Psi) and have a seamless attack chain of [Gloom > MG > Smite > SL > SP > Smite] to get the benefit from Bruising's -20% Res Debuff. The build includes Hasten to get Soul Drain, Energise and Power Surge up sooner, but has enough recharge to run the chain without Hasten.
Siphon Life is slotted for Damage and Healing, producing 337 HP every time it's up (~9.108 seconds) and Darkest Night from the Soul Epic can inflict a Damage Debuff of -21%.
I'm aiming at High Resistance instead of a combination of Medium Resistance and Medium Defence, due to the prevailance of Defence Buffs from Support Sets and DM's own -ToHit debuff secondary effects, all stacking with Elec's high resistances, Darkest Night, Energise and Siphon Life for a good combination of Damage Mitigation, Attack Avoidance and Self-healing potential.
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Concerning DPS
Each build generates Resistance Debuffs from Bruising and a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Lightning Field.
The chain, when running normally with Enhancements and factoring in the extra damage from Lightning Field, produces about 120 DPS (160 after Res Debuffs). With a saturated Soul Drain, this rises to 166 DPS (224 after Res Debuffs).
Endurance Drain is not an issue with Power Sink available every 20-30 seconds.
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The Headache
The next bit is where I'm starting to have trouble.
Basically: Do I go for "Summon Widow", or "Dark Obliteration"?
It's very hard to approximate on paper the DPS generated by a Widow pet, in theory if you average out all the attacks and their animation/recharge times it could peak as high as an additional 166 DPS (factoring in enhancement slotting and my resistance debuffs, but not the Soulbound Allegiance "Chance for Build Up" proc, which will add considerably more DPS over time). So it's looking rather attractive.
In theory, with Soul Drain going full blast, the Widow out and in full-blown "Lawnmower mode" with the Pet AI performing flawlessly and the wind blowing the right way, this build could hit a peak of over 330 DPS. Plus that Soulbound Proc. On a TANKER...
The Widow even technically has a tiny bit of -regen in Poison Dart. Which, even WITH the wind blowing the right way, I'd not assume to include in the above calculation.
However, we all know that Pet AI is far from perfect. And often even far from "Good". Taking Dark Obliteration would add considerable AoE damage to a toon that has no other AoE attacks apart from Lightning Field, Soul Drain and the Sands of Mu Veteran Reward Power - factoring in my resistance debuffs, this is somewhere in the order of 126 Damage to everything within 15 feet every 11 seconds, and 173 with a saturated Soul Drain. With a 13.5 Second Mag 4 Taunt, effectively keeping everything Perma-Taunted.
I can take both powers. Barely. But only with a fair amount of concessions elsewhere in the build. (such as not slotting Stamina and dropping either Hover, Power Surge or Super Jump). I MAY end up going this route, but I'd prefer to get some feedback from the Tanker community first.
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On the one hand, the Pet will help with DPS considerably, even if in practice the clumsy Pet AI doesn't manage to hit anywhere near those theoretical numbers. On the other hand, AoE damage goodness and an extra ranged Taunt (the builds take the Taunt power itself) might come in very handy.
So bearing all the above in mind, my questions are these:
(i) Has anyone got any solid numbers on the actual in-game Damage output of the Brute/Tank/VEAT Soul Mastery pet?
(ii) Are there any other Elec/DM Tanks out there that don't have any real AoEs other than Taunt, Soul Drain and their Damage Aura? I know from my previous Tankers that locking down aggro properly can get a little ropey with just Gauntlet, "Taunt" and a Taunt Aura unless you also have a few regular large-radius AoEs... so what are your experiences using just these tools to hold aggro in the usual 8-man-team gameplay?
Particularly looking for informed answers to the above two questions, but all (OK, "Most") feedback is appreciated...
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Quote:I know a few /Rads and /Kins that'd disagree...Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Maelwys, thanks for your numbers, but we both know that no one is running around at the recharge cap. If we could, I'd be running followup, spin, .5 second pause, repeat as my aoe chain.
But point taken.
It was more a "I wonder what's possible with the numbers?" than "here's a chain for you all to run!".
Personally, my closest to the Golden 400% (if you don't count the Fire/Kin corr) is an Ill/Empath that's a little under 20% short in Phantom Army. It would, however, be at the cap if it wasn't for that dratted lack of +Heal% set bonuses in Panaceas...
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I'm not going to dignify that last reply with a direct response.
Assuming there are still people left reading this thread who are not emotionally vested in their choice of the Elec Melee powerset, and who are willing to entertain the notion that it just might not be the optimal set under all possible conditions:
I've plugged the numbers for SS/Fire and Elec/Fire into one of my DPS spreadsheets.
A copy of it is viewable online at here using Google Docs (exported from excel)
It assumes 75% Fury, 3x Damage SOs slotted, and Single-Stacked Rage for the default instance of SS.
Highlights:
(i) 7.13 Second Chain of FS/Burn/E Fences/B Lightning = 1204Dam/169DPS (DoubleStacked rage)
(ii) 5.68 Second Chain of FS/Burn/Fireball = 1061Dam/187DPS (DoubleStacked rage)
(iii) 11.484 Second Chain of LR/CI/Burn/JL/TS = 1504.9Dam/131DPS (No BU) 1853Dam/161DPS (BU)
(iv) Neither Chain can be repeated indefinitely, but the first SS one is the closest (At the 400% recharge cap, the Recharge time of Ball Lightning is 8 seconds)
The comparison is not perfect, it assumes the damage dealt by the attacks applies to the mob(s) you are fighting... so the Target cap and Radius of individual attacks is ignored. It also ignores cast time of Rage/Build Up and the Rage Crash.
Even so, I shall let you draw your own conclusions.
I'm not going to even ATTEMPT a comparison with Claws...
Disclaimer: I am NOT personally a fan of farming on Brutes. SS or otherwise. I find farming monotonous and as such tend to zone-out when forced to partake in it. When forced to farm; I prefer to do it either on Masterminds (in which case I can divert the majority of my attention to watching a DVD on another screen) or Fire Blasters with Rise of the Pheonix (which are just downright hilarious).
[Edit: Clarified Assumed Damage Slotting] -
Quote:Firstly: personal attacks are not becoming.Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
You don't know how to read. 10 seconds! ten second attack! Start from 0. Also I am not assuming anything. My build has buildup back about 1 second before LR is back.
And no Footstomp is not up 2x in ten seconds.. even if it was it's still not going to equal the elec dmg output in 10 seconds.
My Literary ability or lack thereof is not currently the topic under discussion.
For all you know I might be Illiterate, Blind, Dyslexic, Irish, or all of the above.
Secondly: if you wish to measure performance from the start to the finish of a ten second period, with all abilities fully-recharged, then Footstomp will indeed be up twice as Bill just proved it recharges in about seven seconds on a typical build. After the second time it will simply not have completely finished recharging before the ten seconds are up.
Thirdly: I believe this is currently a discussion about farming potential, meaning consistent AOE damage output... not maximum spike AOE damage output once-every-30-seconds. Of course Build Up is going to equal the performance of a Single-Stacked Rage over a ten second period. But after that, Build Up runs out and Rage keeps on going. And Going. And Going. And ends up passing itself again on the next lap. -
Quote:I'm not naturally inclined to be a big supporter of SS for farming purposes... but it seems to me that 2.1 seconds worth of animation time in a seven second measurement period would leave the SS a considerable mount of time free to use more AoEs (say, Electrifying Fences and Ball Lightning) which would also get the benefit from Rage, compared to a Claws user (or Hypothetical Elec user) who would have little or no room in their AoE attack chain free to use those AoEs, even if redraw time wasn't an issue?Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
This also ignored aoes taken from the APP/PPPs which any good farmer would. Foot Stomp + Fireball or Foot Stomp + Ball Lightning + Elec Fences is certainly going to bring the SS farmer much closer to the claws user. Of course, the claws user can go get those as well, can't he? Sadly for him, he will have to suffer through redraw issues.
The electric melee user won't.
So whilst taken by itself the SS set might not win out at AoE damage output, but [Footstomp combined with Rage] makes a rather good base on which to build. -
Quote:Three things are wrong with that.Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
For example with elec I can do
Buildup/LR/TS/CS
SS can do this
Rage/FS
I think if anyone looks at mids they can say that elec does more aoe dmg in 10 seconds than SS does.
Now whats wrong with that?
(i) You are assuming that Build Up and Lightning Rod will both be available for every spawn.
(ii) You are assuming that only a single instance of Rage is running. Rage can be stacked.
(iii) You fail to account for the fact that even with just SOs and Hasten, Footstomp is up TWICE in a ten second period.
(OK... technically four things. You said "CS", when I assume you mean "CI"...)
Build Up and LR's recharge can be brought down to a little under 30 seconds or so with a reasonable investment into Global Recharge set bonuses, plus Hasten. When discussing farming, if it takes a toon 30 seconds to finish off a group and move to the next one, that's rather slow going. My Spines/DA Scrapper, who is not optimised for farming, typically takes 10-15 seconds for each large spawn. -
Controlling your Henchmen is something of an Art form, so the controls used are probably going to differ from player to player.
Personally I have to admit I'm a big fan of text file based numpad binds for Masterminds.
My two Robot MMs, for example, use numpad keys 1-6 for targeting and issuing orders to the six henchmen, numpad keys 7-9 for Attack, Follow and Goto and decimal "." for Stay. Pressing NumpadEnter toggles between using the above pet binds (as well as selecting "all Pets") and changing the binds on numpad keys 1-8 from pet_select to team_select. Commonly-used Buffs are bound to Divide and Multiply, and Numpad0 is usually an ally-targetted Heal.
In other words, if I've been buffing/selecting pets and want to select the 4th teammate down in my team window and hit them with "Aid Other", I'll hit NumpadEnter (Select Pets --> Select Teammates) and press Numpad4 (to select that teammate), then tap Numpad0 (my bound key for using the "Aid Other" power). If instead I've been buffing/selecting pets and want to tell all pets to attack my current target, I tap NumpadEnter twice (Select Pets --> Select teammates --> Select Pets) and hit numpad7 ("Attack" command).
So I can control and buff any of my henchmen or teammates with only the numpad keys.
However, whilst this is brilliant for fine control purposes, it gets tiresome quickly to have to do this all the time in regular play for each spawn encountered... so as "Common Shortcuts", I also have other power tray Macros and Keys bound as follows:
"Tray #2" = "All Pets Attack this target",
"Tray #3" = "All Pets GOTO here",
"Tray #4" = "Boss and LT Pets attack this target, Minions keep doing what you're doing",
"H" = "Heel/All Pets Passive Follow",
"B" = "Full Bodyguard Mode/All Pets Defensive Follow",
"G" = "All Pets Aggressive" and
"V" = "Minions on Defensive Follow".
So if I want my pets to attack stuff but still keep reasonable personal defenses for my Mastermind, I hit "G" and "V" and use "Tray #4" (with an enemy targetted) to attack. That puts my three minions into Bodyguard mode but tells the Boss and LTs to attack my current target and keep attacking other stuff after they're done.
The Bind files are below if you're curious, note the "bindloadfile" instead of "bindloadfilesilent" on the numpadenter - this is so I get a prompt letting me know if I'm currently set to [selecting teammates] or [selecting pets] whenever I tap numpadenter.
[robot_pets.txt]
numpadenter "bindloadfile c:\Games\coh\mm\robot_team.txt"
numpad1 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\alpha1.txt$$petselect_name Alpha 1"
numpad2 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\alpha2.txt$$petselect_name Alpha 2"
numpad3 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\alpha3.txt$$petselect_name Alpha 3"
numpad4 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\delta1.txt$$petselect_name Delta 1"
numpad5 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\delta2.txt$$petselect_name Delta 2"
numpad6 "bindloadfilesilent c:\Games\coh\mm\assault.txt$$petselect_name Epsilon 1"
numpad7 petcom_all Attack
numpad8 petcom_all Follow
numpad9 petcom_all Goto
decimal petcom_all Stay
subtract "powexec_name Equip Robot"
add "powexec_name Upgrade Robot"
numpad0 "powexec_name Aid Other"
[robot_team.txt]
numpadenter "bindloadfile c:\Games\coh\mm\robot_pets.txt"
numpad1 "team_select 1"
numpad2 "team_select 2"
numpad3 "team_select 3"
numpad4 "team_select 4"
numpad5 "team_select 5"
numpad6 "team_select 6"
numpad7 "team_select 7"
numpad8 "team_select 8"
[text files for individual henchmen... rename as appropriate]
numpad7 petcom_name "Alpha 1" Attack
numpad8 petcom_name "Alpha 1" Follow
numpad9 petcom_name "Alpha 1" Goto
decimal petcom_name "Alpha 1" Stay -
Quote:As Nalrok pointed out above, Chilling Embrace is an AoE aura auto power granted to the Prince with the first pet upgrade. It takes slow sets.Originally Posted by Brakner
I too would like to know how he knows this.
If it doesnt take slow sets then why does an Impeded Swiftness:chance for smashing proc when the demon lord runs into melee? this is before he does the "hand up in the air" shiver animation. -
Quote:http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power..._3.Frozen_AuraOriginally Posted by Psylenz
I am not disputing that frozen aura doesn't take slow sets, but how do you know this? Thanks.
Now, granted that the Demons were added in only recently and are a bit buggy. But generally RedTomax's site is dead-on for the allowed slotting of powers. Also, there's been in-game player testing performed earlier on these boards to prove that Frozen Aura in particular is not accepting Damage sets... the damage of that particular power doesn't rise when you slot damage enhancement into the pet summon, so I've no reason to believe that the fact that NoFuture shows it's not flagged to allow Slow Enhancements is incorrect. -
Quote:Unfortunately Frozen Aura doesn't take slow sets, and it's one of the biggest Endurance Hogs the Prince has... the only thing that Slow sets will affect that Pet sets don't is "Shiver". A number of people including myself have /bugged the inheritance thing. Frozen Aura in particular should really be accepting Damage Enhancements.Originally Posted by seebs
My DS MM is only 29, so I haven't got the upgrades, but my demon prince has been fine with two ordinary pet damage IOs and a smashing damage proc. I do like the idea of swapping to a slow set, though, since absolutely everything it does is slow.
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Quote:StrykerX has it in a nutshell, though I'd add that Shiver and Frozen Aura are the only powers the Prince has which are not affected by Damage Sets (and which therefore benefit from extra Endurance and Accuracy slotting) The Prince's hold inherits Damage Buffs so you don't need to worry about it. Note that Acc/Dam HOs and Generic Endurance Reduction IOs should affect everything. Generic Endurance Reduction IOs are very nice, especially for Frozen Aura.Originally Posted by StrykerX
Demon Prince - Again, generic or Hamidon IOs are the way to go for endurance. He has non-damaging slow and control powers that won't be affected by Pet Damage IOs. He also needs non-Pet Damage Accuracy to make sure his holds and such hit.
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Quote:The game knows that you've slotted 95% Damage, and their attacks will affect that.Originally Posted by milks
I'm looking at the damage enhancements I'm slotting in my 2nd tier demon summon. As far as damage enhancements go, I have 3 dam/acc and a dam/end enhancement (as well as a couple of heal/end but that's not relevant for this post). All are between 22% and 26% damage so my tier 2 demons should be rocking out around 95% damage.
When I mouse over them in the enhancements window it says that they have 61.1% damage buff and 61.1% resist damage. I have not slotted any damage resist enhancements for their ember shield. Is the game splitting the damage from my damage enhancements into damage and damage resists for some reason? Is there another explanation for this? I want these guys putting out more damage.
The tooltip is showing a little over 60% Resist Damage due to an old bug - well, technically it's not a bug as such, but how the Damage Resistance and Damage enhancement values are applied.
Basically "Damage" and "Damage Resistance" buffs use the same value in the code. If you have a power that affects both damage and resistance, then slotting a Damage Enhancement (or a Damage Resistance Enhancement in it) would make both values rise.
To get around this (and prevent you from slotting 2x 33% Damage Enhancements instead of 3x 20% Resistance Enhancements in all the Resistance Toggles!) individual powers are flagged as accepting only Damage or Damage Resistance enhancements, not both.
"Summon Demons" is a bit odd in that it accepts both types - Damage and Resistance Enhancements. However that will only apply to the power that you use to summon the Demons - the powers of the Demons themselves are flagged as only accepting one type or the other - see this for an example. Notice that Fire Blast accepts Damage enhancements but not Resistance, and Ember Shield is the other way around.
What this means is that if you put a Resistance IO into your "Summon Demons" power, the "Summon Demons" power thinks that enhancement will buff both Damage and Resistance of the pet - and treats it as such in the tooltip - but what actually happens is that the value of that Enhancement is only applied to any Powers of the Pet which can accept that enhancement type - in this case, 'Ember Shield' would inherit the buff from such an enhancement, but 'Fire Blast' would not.
This also makes for some funny workarounds, as technically some Hamidon Origin Enhancement types buff one type of attribute but the Enhancement is flagged as belonging to another type. An example would be Damage/Range HOs - they are treated as "Range Enhancements", but buff Damage (and so also buff Damage Resistance)... so if you put them into a Resistance power that accepts Range enhancements (like Thermal's Allied Buff Shields) they'll buff the Damage Resistance of that power. By a full 33%, instead of the usual 20% for Damage Resistance Enhancements.
What you're seeing is the game trying to take your 95% Damage and try to apply it to the normal scale limits for Damage Resistance when it's working out the displayed tooltip vaules. It's limiting it to a little over 60% because that's the ED "softcap" for Damage Resistance. But it'll only be that way in the tooltip. The actual attacks will still get the full 95% Damage buff.
It's exactly the same way for [Tohit Buffs and ToHit Debuffs], and [Defence Buffs and Defence Debuffs]. Just like [Damage and Damage Resistance] they're two sides of the same coin, and will buff the other "type" if you can sneak them around the "accepted enhancements" of a certain power...
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Concerning the Suppression in PVE: I'm honestly not sure it's that noticable.
At least for the OPs secondary, which is the one I'm most familiar with for Illusion.
I can usually count on one hand the number of times my Ill/Emp gets attacked in a regular mission, and that's usually just with Generic Runspeed-slotted SuperSpeed (Sprint has a Stealth IO in it, but I tend to only toggle it on when I'm "ghosting").
Empathy has no powers that affect a foe directly, so nothing will break suppression.
Illusion has three powers that break suppression: Spectral Wounds, Blind and Flash.
Of those three powers, Flash is a very situational powerchoice given that:
(i) it is a short duration hold which does no damage and only affects up to LTs
(ii) it has a long activation time which requires you enter PBAoE range
(iii) you can already control an entire spawn via Spectral Terror and Deceive, not to mention Phantom Army.
That leaves only Blind and Spectral Wounds.
When soloing, since both powers are Single-Target it's fairly rare to open up on more than one foe with with either of them, so if you're going to be using them then Phantom Army/Phantasm/Spectral Terror will be already holding the attention of all the foes except the one upon which you're concentrating. Since you'll probably be opening with Blind to set up containment before using SW to deal damage, the foe you're hitting will not be attacking you back. So you're visible, but nothing is hitting you.
After you're done with the spawn of foes, your Stealth kicks back in again 10 seconds after you last activated an attack. Spectral Terror by itself occasionally lets an attack or two get as far as you, so it's not perfect. But close enough, especially if you're buffing Phantasm's Perception and Damage so he takes more aggro, and especially-especially if you have a low recharge time on PA.
When on a team, then you'll more than likely be buffing and throwing out your best controls (PA, Spooky and Deceive) and only blasting when you've a spare moment to do so. Maybe even throwing out a heal or two. So you'll mainly be unsuppressed, and even if you are blasting then aggro will be quite well locked down (by you, if not a Tanker) so Stealth or lack thereof is usually a non-issue.
My own Ill/Empath has been level 50 for a good few years now and is the support toon I tend to bring along on higher level TFs more often than not. He's yet to get his first debt badge. It's a rather busy but remarkably safe powerset combo, and I've never once felt the need for more Stealth than the build already possesses.... although admittedly in i19 he will be picking up Group Invis, along with Hover, mainly as mules for a 3rd and 4th LOTG +recharge IO to push his Global recharge up from +165% to +180%. (In a toss up between taking SI for a 5th LOTG slot, or Recall Friend for situational Teleports, I went with Recall Friend. Even if he could theoretically hit the big +200% mark by taking SI and replacing his five Doctored Wounds sets with some Panaceas I have in storage, Phantom Army is already Practically Perma and I know i'd never use SI...) -
Quote:I believe everything aside from Grant/Group Invis suppresses in PVP.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Superior Invisibility and Group Invisibility are not the same as Super Speed + a Stealth IO. The Stealth IO suppresses if you take damage or attack. Superior Invisibility and GI invisibility does not. Stealth IOs will get you part of the way but they do not let you move with the impunity that actual invisibility powers do.
Super Speed + an AoE stealth power (e.g. Steamy Mists or Arctic Fog) is also better than a Super Speed + a Stealth IO and also does not suppress. [EDIT: I misremembered this part. Super Speed stealth does suppress on attacking, the fog does not, so you keep 35ft of Stealth.]
I also believe SI is a must-have for PVP.
(and it's been a while since I used them in that capacity, so I'm not even sure about that!)
Even Superior Invis.
+1000 StealthRadiusPlayer for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 6 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when HitByFoe, for 6 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Back in the Pre-PvP-Diminishing-Returns-nerf days, I did run with SI in a PVP zone. It hit the Controller Stealth Cap pretty easily. Unfortunately, the same Stealth Cap could also be hit by Stealth + a Stealth IO whenever they came out, and you saw a lot of Devices Blasters making use of the same thing via Cloaking Device + a Stealth IO.
These days post-nerf, I can't rememeber offhand if Stealth is one of the things that Diminishing Returns affects, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Paragonwiki is still a bit unclear on what is and isn't affected by it. -
Quote:Lets say you have an attack.Originally Posted by Beelzy
My bad... Also, was unaware of the +rech nerf against /rad...
I understand that the -res of cold is better than that of rad, but to what extent does that affect dps?
It hits a foe for 100 Damage.
(i) You slot the attack, with three SOs, granting +95% Damage.
The Attack now hits a foe for 195 Damage.
(ii) You now get a +20% Damage Buff.
The Attack now hits the foe for (95+20=115) 215 Damage.
(iii) You lose the Damage Buff, and inflict a -20% Resistance debuff.
The Attack now hits the foe for (195*1.2) 234 Damage.
As you can see: Resistance Debuffs are multiplicative, and Damage Buffs are additive.
And Resistance Debuffs also affect your teammates' or pets' damage output.
Altogether this means that stacking a lot of Resistance Debuffs goes a long way to ramping up your damage output. A Rad Defender can put out -30% resistance. A Cold Defender with enough recharge can theoretically put out -120%. (Plus a bit more with Procs... but let's keep this simple) That's the equivalent of multiplying all damage inflicted against a foe by 2.2 -
Quote:You can also use a less expensive "Unbounded Leap" one in Sprint. Or go for Power Pool Stealth - particularly with i19 soon opening up another "free" power pool choice. And since you're arguing that taking Stealth would waste a power pick slot, I would make the counter-argument that taking SI would waste enhancement slots... since you really need to three-slot it to weather the endurance drain.Originally Posted by Local_Man
Worst? Not even close. Yes, you can get full PvE invisibility with Super Speed and a very expensive Celerity Stealth IO -- I have it on many of my characters, and the last time I looked, the Celerity Stealth was selling for about 160 mil. I also use Shadow Fall or Steamy Mist + Super Speed or a Stealth IO. But Superior Invis is pure invisibility with some defense on an easy-to-use toggle. It is not difficult to take the endurance cost into effect on an Illusion build. It can be slotted with IOs for 12.5% Recharge and some decent defense. And it even keeps you hard to see by +perception foes until you get really close. It has allowed me to fly past Rikti Drones in caves without being seen if I go by fast enough.
Rikti Drones ignore stealth/perception checks, so no matter how much stealth you pile on they will always see you. I would guess that in the cases you mention you happened to be moving quickly enough to be in and out of their attack range before they started firing at you. The same behaviour holds true for Rularuu Sentries and Knives of Artemis, and certain foes with Autohit PBAoE auras such as certain members of Longbow and the Cabal also effectively see through any amount of stealth when they're in melee range of you. The only thing that SI lets you stand in front of that SS + IO/Stealth doesn't are Turrets/GMs (100 Points) and Snipers (150 points of Perception). So unless you regularly run Nemesis Missions you're probably not going to notice any difference.
As you noted though, the single thing making taking SI a difficult choice is not its stealth magnitude, but its Endurance cost. Whenever a player is is choosing a toggle power which they intend to run constantly, IMO the one to avoid would be the one which costs more than a Fully Slotted Stamina gives them and grants little discernable benefit over other similar choices. -
Quote:I was comparing just Scrappers and MMs there... if we're getting into the "highest DPS output versus a GM with toon X helping" it'd make for an interesting test. I suspect a /Cold would have the edge. Or possibly an VEAT, if they can keep all the pets alive. Or a /Psi Dom with Poisonous Ray and Drain Psyche slotted for -Regen. Too many good combinations...Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Actually, you would do better with a defender and a corr respectively.
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Quote:Superior Invisiblity costs 1.04 Endurance/Second. You can get the same affect for 0.46 Endurance/Second with Superspeed and a Stealth IO. That combo grants 65 points of Stealth, meaning you'll be invisible to virtually everything in PVE (bar the usual GMs, Snipers and Drones). This is especially useful since you'll be taking Hasten anyway, so it doesn't even need a power pool pick wasted on it like "Stealth" would. And you get a "free travel power" too.Originally Posted by Sandolphan
Superior Invisibility is one of the three best powers in Illusion (Deceive and Phantom Army being the other two). I suggest taking each of these as soon as they become available. Slot SI for endurance reduction, then turn it on whenever you log in. It's the best invisibility power in the game. If Illusion consisted only of these three powers, it would still be an awesome set.Quote:
Superior Invisibility is largely worthless. You can get the same effect of SI for less Endurance by Power Pool Stealth and a Stealth IO in Sprint. Or a Stealth IO in Superspeed (and hey, you'll be taking Hasten anyway!). Grant Invis is an endurance hog and not particularly effective, but it can make a nice mule for a LOTG IO.
Superior Invisibilty is currently one of the worst methods in the game of attaining "Full Stealth" (Group Invis is close behind it since it wears off as soon as you do anything instead of Suppressing Temporarily). IMO it is therefore completely skippable, and hardly qualifies as "one of the three best powers in Illusion". -
Quote:Ah... but that'd not be soloing then, would it?Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
And honestly the only factor in GM soloing that counts out Scrappers is a single power type, the regen debuff. If you had a duo of a buffer doing nothing but hit them with howling twilight, plus the actual 'soloer,' the Scrapper would probably be the most effective AT to do everything else.
If you had a duo of a Damage Dealer doing nothing but hit them with their attacks, plus the "actual soloer", the MM would come out on top. Or if you had a duo of a Tanker doing nothing but taunting, plus the "actual soloer", the MM would come out on top.
You're effectively saying "if you discount the reason Scrappers can't solo GMs, then Scrappers could solo GMs".
And even then... MMs have a lot of other buffs and debuffs to fall back on than just -regen. Take the Bot/Traps, as a somewhat famous example: aside from the hefty -regen, they have better mitigation than most Tankers, and although they have a heck of a lot of -regen in Poison Trap, they also have stackable -Resistance (to the order of over 60%, at endgame) in Acid Mortar. And even extra Damage Output in "Trip Mine"... which due to their +defence, they can "toebomb" during combat.
It's not just Traps either. All the other secondaries except FF have resistance debuffs, and some have the means to buff their Pets Damage too (think "Forge"). That certainly puts MMs in the same damage ballpark as most Scrappers. -
Quote:First off, Yay, I got the combo right!Originally Posted by Microcosm
I think you have your bane and crab numbers backwards there, as ~430 is what I calculated for my bane a while ago. (Using Crowd Control to get the FotG proc to go off would be a big waste of dps, btw). What is the chain you are calculating? Mine is Surveillance->Venomnade->Shatter Armor->Poisonray-> Shatter-> Pulverize -> Poisonray -> Shatter -> Pulverize, throwing in Buildup when it won't cause redraw. The last crab build I checked was somewhere in the 350s I think.
Concerning the build, perhaps I'm factoring in too much redraw time, but I make that chain you quoted a hair under 21 seconds, which means that Venom Grenade's debuff in particular would have expired a good 5 seconds before it ends. The Chain I was looking at was Pulverise --> Shatter Armor --> Crowd Control --> Poisonous Ray --> Venom Grenade --> Surveillance --> Poisonous Ray which works out at a hair over 16 seconds... on the grounds that my build's Crowd Control at 141 DPA + Proc was better than Shatter at 153 DPA without a Proc. All together my Bane build puts out around 107 "Raw" DPS (before res debuffs) and 190 "Inflicted" DPS (after res debuffs).
With your chain using my build I make it 120 "Raw" DPS total from the Bane itself. Assuming you managed to get your resistance debuffs up slightly more often than mine (mine's in the high -70%'s), that's an average of about -80% Resistance debuffs constantly applied, meaning 120 "Raw" DPS becomes 215 "inflicted DPS" from the Bane. Call Reinforcements Pets each inflict a little over 11 unslotted DPS in melee range (or 9 DPS at range), Summon Blaster inflicts a hair over 15 unslotted DPS at range (12 DPS in melee). Assuming optimum conditions (-80% res applied, +30% damage from tactics, +96% Damage from pet slotting, Call Reinforcements Pets in melee, Blaster Pet at Range, No pause to resummon pets) that would rise to a total of 92 DPS from the Call Reinforcements Pets, and 61 DPS from the Blaster. In my own build I assumed Pets would get less benefit from the Resistance debuffs as they inflict no Toxic Damage... but I'll assume they get the full -80% here for simplicity's sake. That gives 215+92+61= about 368 "inflicted DPS" under optimal conditions.
The Crab build I'm using runs a Channel Gun --> Shatter Armor --> Channel Gun --> Arm Lash --> Channel Gun --> Venom Grenade --> Channel Gun --> Arm Lash chain, which works out at a bit over 16 seconds. Due to the regular -20% Procs it puts out an average of around 55.5% -Res, and the Crab itself has an "inflicted DPS" of just over 171 - less than the Bane, true. The Spiderling pets add 13 unslotted DPS in melee (three spiderlings, so using same rules as above for the Bane with 55.5% -Res, this equates to a bit over 136 "inflicted DPS" - though you'll need to adjust this down slightly as they are -2 to most foes. I have the "Chance for Build Up" Purple Proc in them which goes off fairly regularly and roughly cancels out the effect of the level difference). Call reinforcements and Summon Blaster are similar to the Bane, albiet at 55.5% res instead of 80% - working out at 79 and 53 DPS respectively. 79+53+136+171= about 439 "inflicted DPS" under optimal conditions.
It's quite possible that my Pet DPS values are incorrect and that is what's causing the difference. When calculating the two builds I approximated Pet DPS by adding up the Damage/(Cast Time + Recharge) of each different attack over time for both "melee" and "ranged" modes for each pet. It's hard to get an exact calculation on Pet DPS, but it's fairly certain that they'll tend to spam short-range attacks then they're in melee and long-range attacks when they're far away... especially since pets tend to be locked into one of the two "prefer melee" or "prefer range" modes and stay there cycling the appropriate attacks.
Apologies for the wall of text... it looks considerably tidier on my spreadsheet!
-
Quote:You CAN solo with Ill/Empathy, but not very well until level 33 (32 gets the pet, 33 has it slotted). However, it is an absolute beast as a team support toon.Originally Posted by besixdouze
Hi all!
What kind of build would you recommend for an illusion/empathy controller?
* I tend to solo, but would like to be well-rounded in case the need to group arises.
* I would like flight as my travel power.
* I don't know whether to choose invisibility or group invisibility (or both?).
* I try to shape my powers to fit my character. She's a French magician somewhat inspired by Zatanna Zatara. Found on the streets of Paris and adopted by a witch who trained her, then taken in by a circus and grew into adulthood following the death of the witch.
Any suggestions?
Things will vary a lot depending on playstyle, but in general:
(i) Treat Empathy as a Buff set that happens to have Heals, not a Heal set that happens to have Buffs
(ii) For Illusion: your biggest solo powers are Blind, Spectral Wounds, Deceive, Phantom Army and Phantasm. Treat Spectral Terror as your main AoE Mez, NOT Flash (it's weak, it's PBAoE and it's long activation - I skipped it and with ST and the Purple Proc in Deceive I have not missed it, ever.)
(iii) For Empathy: Fortitude, Clear Mind and Adrenaline Boost are by far your best powers. Heals are situational. Absorb Pain is very useful in certain emergency situations, the Auras are also quite useful generally but they work best if you save them for when they're needed rather than spamming them as soon as they're up.
In terms of build, go for Recharge, Recharge and more recharge. Both Illusion and Empathy benefit very, very heavilly from extra Recharge. Warning: this gets EXPENSIVE.
Ideally you'll want near-perma Phantom Army and Perma Adrenaline Boost (both powers really are that good, and it'll mean you can keep Fortitude up on nearly an entire team and use your Auras far more often). Taking Hasten is a given. Using cheap recharge sets in Spectral Terror and Decieve and your Heals goes a long way, but be prepared to shell out for LOTGs and a few Purple sets (My own build currently has Hasten + 3 Purple sets and 4 LOTGs plus numerous other sets for a total of 165% Recharge with AB perma and Phantom Army and Hasten a few seconds off Perma, in i19 when I can slot two more LOTGs this will rise to 180%)
Superior Invisibility is largely worthless. You can get the same effect of SI for less Endurance by Power Pool Stealth and a Stealth IO in Sprint. Or a Stealth IO in Superspeed (and hey, you'll be taking Hasten anyway!). Grant Invis is an endurance hog and not particularly effective, but it can make a nice mule for a LOTG IO. -
Quote:You realise you can get not one, but THREE pets that do decent damage?Originally Posted by Dz131
Awwwwww
I was hopingh it would be awesome. Dammit I want a pet and decent dmg too
rerolling something else
You just have to wait for level 47 for them.
Summon Spiderlings - Mace Mastery Patron Pool. For Bonus points, you get a S/L defence armor toggle as a prerequisite, which stacks nicely with Cloaking Device to let you toebomb stuff with "Tripmine".
(You can also go Mu Mastery to get a Mu Adept, but Spiderlings do a fair bit more damage)
Really though, it sounds like Devices might not be your cup of tea. Devices' damage is pretty much based on the Stealth/Smoke Grenade + Trip Mine tactic. It gets mitigation from Caltrops/Webnade plus +Perc and +ToHit from Targetting Drone.
Devices isn't a secondary that lends itself to prolonged damage output (or standard "steamrolling" team play, really). It is very, very solo friendly and can do some amazing amounts of spike damage... but it takes a considerable amount of time and preperation to set up all your mines to inflict that damage. If you're going to go for Devices and want to team a lot, I'd adivse you to pick a Primary that has a good amount of AoE and lends itself to that style of gameplay. Personally, I went with Ice/Devices. Frost Breath, Blizzard and Ice Storm see far more use than Trip Mine when teaming... but Ice/ also helps nicely when soloing. Combined with Caltrops/Webnade, foes are slooooooooow. -
Quote:I suspect it's a /Cold. Stacked Sleet (-30% Res, summon lasts 15 seconds, applies debuff that lasts for 30 seconds so in theory at high recharge can inflict -90% res) + Heat Loss (-30% Res) + Benumb (-500% Regen) with bonus points for Mace Mastery's Poisonous Ray (-18.8% Res) plus the Toxic Tarantula pet. Controllers also get fairly good numbers for Assault (+15% damage) which will work on their own pets plus the Patron pet.Originally Posted by Beelzy
I see, so not 400 dps per say, but the equivalent of 400 dps...
Ill/Rad troller?
Primary I'm not so sure about, but Illusion (PA + SW, sadly Phantasm's slightly retarded) or Fire (Imps + Char + Hotfeet) would be a safe bet for high damage output.
I'm a bit unsure of the Bane idea. Banes certainly get a lot of -res (Surveillance -20%, Shatter Armor -20%, Venom Grenade -20%/-40%, Poisonous Ray can take the Achilles' proc, Crowd Control can take the Fury of the Gladiator Proc), but you need to spam them fairly regularly as they only last 20 seconds (VG is worse at 16 secs), and Venom Grenade causes redraw and Surveillance does no damage which means a significant loss in DPS.
Conversely, Crabs get nearly as much -res (Venom Grenade -20%/-40%, Shatter Armor -20%, Channelgun and Longfang can take the Achilles' Proc, Arm Lash can take the Achilles Proc AND the Fury of the Gladiator Proc) but it doesn't have redraw on Venom Grenade, only Shatter armor (which does good damage and doesn't need to be spammed as often as VG) and three more pets than the Bane. I work out a Bane topping out at about 335 DPS, and a Crab at about 440 DPS - the Spiderlings alone add well over 100 DPS if you can keep them in melee.
That's all Raw DPS + Resistance debuffs though. Neither Banes or Crabs get any regen debuffs... so a /Cold will therefore be better against virtually any single hard target if there are no outside sources of -regen. Another contender could possibly be a Fire/Psi/Mace Dominator (due to Drain Psyche's -regen debuff being enhanceable, plus four pets and Poisonous Ray giving around 330 DPS before Drain Psyche is even taken into account). -
Now that I've got my Demon/ MM up high enough I wanted to add something-
Although there's still no word on any "fix" for Frozen Aura on the Demon Prince, I've played about with different slotting on all my Pets and have arrived at the following as a "best case" for my Demon/FF, taking into account how the pets' powers currently inherit values from enhancements:
Summon Demonlings:
Blood Mandate: Acc/Dam, Blood Mandate: Acc/Dam/End, Sovereign Right: Acc/Dam/End, Acc/Dam (S)HO, Edict of the Master: +Defence Unique, SoulBound Allegiance: "Chance for Build Up" Proc. [Reasoning: This works out at 102.2% Acc/ 102.2% Dam, 42.4% Endred before ED - Slotting affects all attacks, Chance for Build Up gets highest chance of going off in 3 pets with fast animating attacks and since they're -2 they can also make the best use of the extra +Tohit]
Summon Demons:
Acc/Dam (S)HO, Acc/Dam (S)HO, End/Resist (S)HO, End/Resist (S)HO, Sovereign Right: +Resistance Unique, Steadfast Protection: Res/Def (Assuming you want to push your MM towards the Defence softcap) [Reasoning: This works out at 66% Acc/ 106.6% Dam, 66% Endred, 53.06% resistance before ED due to the way Damage Buffs and Damage Resistance Buffs are "swappable" (attacks gain EndRed and Damage from Ribos since they're flagged as "EndRed" type), so Heals and Attacks and Resistance Buffs all get 66.6% EndRed, and the Resistance Shields are pushed up towards the ED Cap]
Summon Demon Prince:
Soulbound Allegiance: Damage, Acc/Dam (S)HO, Blood Mandate: Acc/Dmg/Endred, Level 50 Common EndRed IO, Level 50 Common EndRed IO, Impeded Swiftness: Damage Proc.
OR
Soulbound Allegiance: Dam/End, Acc/Dam (S)HO, Acc/Dam (S)HO, Level 50 Common EndRed IO, Level 50 Common EndRed IO, Impeded Swiftness: Damage Proc.
[Reasoning: This works out at ED Capped Damage and Endurance for the attacks, with 84.8% EndRed Enhancement going through to the "unaffected by damage enhancement" Slows. Accuracy (of everything) and EndRed (of attacks) is slightly better in the second slotting option, Damage is slightly better in the first. The second option is probably the best, since the Accuracy in the HOs will carry through to both Shiver and Frozen Aura. The Damage Proc is a given, it can activate on every attack the Prince has.]
Hell on Earth
Soulbound Allegiance: Dam/Rech, Soulbound Allegiance: Acc/Dam/Rech, Expedient Reinforcement: Acc/Dam/Rech, Expedient Reinforcement: End/Dam/Rech, Expedient Reinforcement: +Resistance Unique, Call to Arms: +Defence Unique. [Reasoning: This works out at 47.7% Acc/ 102.03% Dam / 21.2% EndRed/ 102.03% Rech before ED. Damage and Recharge are very handy in this power, The Accuracy is a little bit sub-par, but slots are at a premium here since this power is the only place where you can slot the two Recharge Intensive Pet Uniques, and I run Tactics...] -
Quote:For those that want more Endurance - Energy Mastery (Conserve Power + Physical Perfection).Originally Posted by SuperFerret
So what APP/PPP's would you recommend?
For those that want Single Target damage output - Soul Mastery (No contest: Gloom is Single Target DPA king - better than many attacks in the AT's standard sets).
For those that want AoE damage output - Mu Mastery (EF + BL beats Fireball... though Soul's ST + DO combo isn't too far behind if you're OK with cones)
For those that want more damage mitigation - Arctic Mastery (Shiver works great on nearly everything) Soul Mastery (Darkest Night is fantastic, providing you don't mind all the retoggling) or Energy Mastery (Energy Torrent is a good way to break up an Alpha) or Earth Mastery (Quick Sand to make foes run slooooooowly into melee range)
Best All-rounder? Soul Mastery. Two decent-damage AOE attacks, one of which can be slotted up to keep an AV immobilised and taunted at range. A very high damage Single Target attack, a wonderfully powerful Damage Mitigation Toggle and a fairly high DPS pet. It's basically Made of Win.