The Widow has the survivability of a wet paper napkin, or at least that was my experience when I tried her on my SS/SR/Soul. Nice damage, but a hard poke in the ribs does her in (slight exaggeration, but not by much - when you're running at x8, the pet's survivability goes to zero). IMO, you're better off with Dark Obliteration.
Quote:
Yeah, for standard Teaming Dark Obliteration is the better pick. |
Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
The Widow has the survivability of a wet paper napkin, or at least that was my experience when I tried her on my SS/SR/Soul. Nice damage, but a hard poke in the ribs does her in (slight exaggeration, but not by much - when you're running at x8, the pet's survivability goes to zero). IMO, you're better off with Dark Obliteration.
|
Which is why I'm in a quandry...
The extra DPS from the pet would mainly be for soloing or for taking on Hard Targets such as AVs. The proposed toon is intended as an extremely survivable Single Target attack specialist, and AV soloing is certainly doable given the specs. As a Tanker I should have no problem forcing a single target to face away from the pet, so that cone attacks are aimed solely at me. In such situations the Widow should only have to worry about AoE attacks (and it's fairly uncommon to have AoE damage spam from AVs... GMs are another story, but I doubt I'll be attempting to solo those!)
Blood Widows have a tiny bit of Defence (~5%?) and no resistance to speak of. But they DO get mez protection, and I suspect they're a solid source of extra ST DPS (only on paper though - so I'm grateful for any in-game DPS numbers). They seem to be nearly purpose-built for "one-on-one" encounters... especially when someone else is soaking up the damage, but there's a chance of some light AoE or Mez flying about.
But is taking a Pet over an AoE attack going to gimp the Tanker's team performance to the point where it can't reliably hold aggro versus larger spawns...? That's my worry...
When in doubt, always go with the power that:
A. Is more reliable.
B. You have more situations to use it in.
C. Doesn't rely on AI.
D. All of the above.
Quote:
I see where you're coming from now. Take the pet.|
Originally Posted by Maelwys
The extra DPS from the pet would mainly be for soloing or for taking on Hard Targets such as AVs.
... But is taking a Pet over an AoE attack going to gimp the Tanker's team performance to the point where it can't reliably hold aggro versus larger spawns...? That's my worry... |
My DA/Fire tank has all the aggro tools that yours will, and he has no trouble holding aggro. Well, I do have combustion and Fire Sword Circle, both of which are up more often than Soul Drain, but you also have Power Sink, which is auto hit and up very often. Aside from [Taunt] and [Fossilize], though, I have no way to grab aggro at range. I've got a damn near identical damage aura (yours has a debuff, so it's a little stronger at holding aggro). You might want to check Gloom's gauntlet effect, but it should serve as a second taunt. Don't be afraid to move around while you fight, and for $deity's sake, keep pressing Tab.
Dark Oblit is phenomenal AoE damage for a tanker. On a team, however, it's still not doing near as much as anyone else on the team does. It's only going to help with aggro, but you should have that handled on your own. If your concern is taking down an AV on your own, get the pet.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Thanks Dechs. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My DA/Fire tank has all the aggro tools that yours will, and he has no trouble holding aggro. Well, I do have combustion and Fire Sword Circle, both of which are up more often than Soul Drain, but you also have Power Sink, which is auto hit and up very often. Aside from [Taunt] and [Fossilize], though, I have no way to grab aggro at range. I've got a damn near identical damage aura (yours has a debuff, so it's a little stronger at holding aggro). You might want to check Gloom's gauntlet effect, but it should serve as a second taunt.
|
My main two other tanks are a INV/SS and a Fire/EM, the INV doesn't have any ranged means of grabbing aggro other than Taunt, but Footstomp's large PBAoE radius is generally good enough. The Fire has Energy Torrent and Burn to fall back on.
I am definitely worried about the Damage Aura's 8 foot radius being my "main aoe". Combustion would be brilliant and eliminate my worries if DM had access to it.
Soul Drain definitely does have a Taunt, thankfully, and it's a 10-foot radius. But it's not a perma-able taunt effect the same way Dark Obliteration's would be.
I looked up the stats for 'Power Sink'. It's a 10-foot radius, which is slightly better than the taunt Aura, but Nofuture shows it as having no Taunt effect and the In-Game real numbers display seems to show this too... rather odd though since the Ice Armor equivalent 'Energy Absorption' definitely inflicts Taunt, and all each power does to a foe is drain its Endurance.
"Darkest Night" could actually solve all my problems, at least at EndGame, if it has a Taunt effect (again, NoFuture says it doesn't on Brutes... I can only hope this is different on a Tanker...) At a 25 feet radius, 70 foot range, ~7 second recharge/cast time in the build that would make all my aggro control worries go away...
Cheers for the replies so far folks. It's keeping me thinking!!
[Edit] Brute Power Sink has Taunt, Tanker one doesn't. This seems wrong so I'm going to /bug it... Am still unsure about Darkest Night: as it's a debuff I think it probably SHOULD have a Taunt effect, I'm just not sure if it actually currently DOES have one...
All I can say is...
Good on you for being able to afford five sets of Gladiator's Strike.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
Hero Merits. It's only a matter of time.
|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Good on you for being able to afford five sets of Gladiator's Strike.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I'm no stranger to farming PVP IOs... |
Originally Posted by Smersh
All I can say is...
Good on you for being able to afford five sets of Gladiator's Strike. |
Technically it's only three sets of Glad Strike, in Shadow Punch, Smite and Midnight Grasp (3x 5 IOs, I'm skipping the Dam/Rech in favour of a common Level 50 Damage IO in SP/MG and a Hectatomb Proc in Smite). Plus the Shield Wall +3% Resist Unique in Combat Jumping. Plus Tough (slotted normally) and a total of 131% Resistance Enhancement in Charged Armor (3x Titanium Coatings, plus 3x Level 50 Common Resistance IOs). All together this makes a grand total of 90.29% S/L Resistance. The real trick was optimising the rest of the build for Global Recharge and Damage Output!!
There's also three Fury of the Gladiator IOs in Lightning Field, aside from the Proc they're largely there for a bit of insurance in case "Grounded" hasn't quite kicked in. Oh, and a Panacea Rech/Heal in Energise.
I have them all crafted already, bar one last Glad Strike Acc/Dam/End/Rech which I've currently got a bid up for. I've been planning this toon for a while!
I'm trying to decide between two setups for my next Tanker.
I've two builds for a Elec/DM that're aimed at combining High DPS and High survivability.
I may post the builds later on, but the specifics aren't particularly important, beyond the below:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning Survivability
In each build I manage to hit the 90% Mark for S/L res (and 90% E, 50% N, 62.5% F/C and 70% Psi) and have a seamless attack chain of [Gloom > MG > Smite > SL > SP > Smite] to get the benefit from Bruising's -20% Res Debuff. The build includes Hasten to get Soul Drain, Energise and Power Surge up sooner, but has enough recharge to run the chain without Hasten.
Siphon Life is slotted for Damage and Healing, producing 337 HP every time it's up (~9.108 seconds) and Darkest Night from the Soul Epic can inflict a Damage Debuff of -21%.
I'm aiming at High Resistance instead of a combination of Medium Resistance and Medium Defence, due to the prevailance of Defence Buffs from Support Sets and DM's own -ToHit debuff secondary effects, all stacking with Elec's high resistances, Darkest Night, Energise and Siphon Life for a good combination of Damage Mitigation, Attack Avoidance and Self-healing potential.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning DPS
Each build generates Resistance Debuffs from Bruising and a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Lightning Field.
The chain, when running normally with Enhancements and factoring in the extra damage from Lightning Field, produces about 120 DPS (160 after Res Debuffs). With a saturated Soul Drain, this rises to 166 DPS (224 after Res Debuffs).
Endurance Drain is not an issue with Power Sink available every 20-30 seconds.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Headache
The next bit is where I'm starting to have trouble.
Basically: Do I go for "Summon Widow", or "Dark Obliteration"?
It's very hard to approximate on paper the DPS generated by a Widow pet, in theory if you average out all the attacks and their animation/recharge times it could peak as high as an additional 166 DPS (factoring in enhancement slotting and my resistance debuffs, but not the Soulbound Allegiance "Chance for Build Up" proc, which will add considerably more DPS over time). So it's looking rather attractive.
In theory, with Soul Drain going full blast, the Widow out and in full-blown "Lawnmower mode" with the Pet AI performing flawlessly and the wind blowing the right way, this build could hit a peak of over 330 DPS. Plus that Soulbound Proc. On a TANKER...
The Widow even technically has a tiny bit of -regen in Poison Dart. Which, even WITH the wind blowing the right way, I'd not assume to include in the above calculation.
However, we all know that Pet AI is far from perfect. And often even far from "Good". Taking Dark Obliteration would add considerable AoE damage to a toon that has no other AoE attacks apart from Lightning Field, Soul Drain and the Sands of Mu Veteran Reward Power - factoring in my resistance debuffs, this is somewhere in the order of 126 Damage to everything within 15 feet every 11 seconds, and 173 with a saturated Soul Drain. With a 13.5 Second Mag 4 Taunt, effectively keeping everything Perma-Taunted.
I can take both powers. Barely. But only with a fair amount of concessions elsewhere in the build. (such as not slotting Stamina and dropping either Hover, Power Surge or Super Jump). I MAY end up going this route, but I'd prefer to get some feedback from the Tanker community first.
------------------------------------------------------------------
On the one hand, the Pet will help with DPS considerably, even if in practice the clumsy Pet AI doesn't manage to hit anywhere near those theoretical numbers. On the other hand, AoE damage goodness and an extra ranged Taunt (the builds take the Taunt power itself) might come in very handy.
So bearing all the above in mind, my questions are these:
(i) Has anyone got any solid numbers on the actual in-game Damage output of the Brute/Tank/VEAT Soul Mastery pet?
(ii) Are there any other Elec/DM Tanks out there that don't have any real AoEs other than Taunt, Soul Drain and their Damage Aura? I know from my previous Tankers that locking down aggro properly can get a little ropey with just Gauntlet, "Taunt" and a Taunt Aura unless you also have a few regular large-radius AoEs... so what are your experiences using just these tools to hold aggro in the usual 8-man-team gameplay?
Particularly looking for informed answers to the above two questions, but all (OK, "Most") feedback is appreciated...