Maelwys

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So to sum up, the way of the scrapper is charge in and mash buttons.
Then either a) die or b) say regen/dark ftw (delete as aplicable)

BTW Dark ftw

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Pretty much

Dark's better in teams, generally. Even Cognito and I agree on that point! Not necessarily because it gives *you* more mitigation, but because Gloom + Death Shroud makes life much easier for your teammates.

Soloing? Regen. No contest. Dark can't compare to Regen in one-on-one situations at all. Gloom doesn't work on anything above minions and Dark Regen only heals you to full if it hits 3 or more mobs.

There's a very good Scrapper secondary Comparison on the US boards for further reading. General consensus is that Dark and Regen are the best, with Dark having the capacity to excel far and beyond Regen in certain situations. Inv and SR are surprisingly weak by comparison.

For a general overview of all types of Scrappers, this thread says it all better than I could...

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Hmm, they must have changed DP since the early days (never really looked closely at it) when the +max HP _wasnt_ enhanceable. (btw, using mid's builder as an authority for the sake of discussion is flawed, but ill give you this one)

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Mids was referenced as an example, not an authority. It pulls from City of Data, which isn't 100% reliable since i7 beta. However in-game testing for "Dull Pain" powers on my 30 Regen Stalker, 50 INV Tanker, 50 Human/Dwarf PB and 50 Regen Scrapper has always acted this way since I started playing in early i6, and the official patch archive indicates it's been this way since 17th November 2005.

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IH still isnt up every fight its base recharge is 650 seconds, and with 3 rech IOs and hasten (even if it'd be perma) it still takes 241 seconds to recharge, 4 minutes. So you cant rely on it as you main tactics aswell. Besides it not being very good at burst damage (its awesome vs DoT) also makes it 'unsuitable' for taking alpha strikes

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But it's perfectly suitable for weathering the damage that you recieve immediately after the alpha strike, when you're typically operating at at about 10-20% HP. Dull Pain weathers the initial spike damage, IH stops you from going under immediately afterwards. Reconstruction brings you back up well into the green.

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Dark does not rely on resistance alone to mitigate damage, Cloak of Fear and Opressive Gloom drastically reduce incoming damage (-tohit and disorient) I dont feel like doing the numbers, but im betting DA totally murders Regen in that section.

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Cloak of fear is rubbish in teams (the -tohit is negligable, particularly on higher than even con enemies), Oppressive Gloom is fantastic at ongoing mitigation since it negates all non stun resistant minions... but it won't help you survive the inital alpha any more then Instant Healing, since the stun is applied in pulses and is not instantaneously effective.

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DA and Torrent both are of equal value to _all_ secondairies, well, at least torrent is. Dark Avalance is of a little less value to defense sets, but still, Dark Armor and regen take even benefits off of it.

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Actually Regen and Dark get better mitigation from them than the others, due to the fact that the longer the fight goes on the better Regen and Dark will do in comparison to SR and INV. I agree with the second point in that the benefit they get is roughly equal (Dark Regen compared to ongoing Natural Regen + Reconstruction).

Since you're breaking the Alpha "Spike" up into damage over time with Energy Torrent, Regen will do better and Dark will get a chance to let Gloom do its work. With Divine Avalanche the +defense stops a major portion of incoming damage completely, rather than delaying it until the mobs get back on their feet again (as with ET).

Since SR and INV only get "constant" mitigation they won't really care whether the incoming damage is over time or in a spike, so ET does not do much for them.

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So yes, Regen has the addition of more HP, but Dark really outperforms it with shear other damage mitigation, as does invuln which has the +HP AND more RES/DEF and SR who isnt far above regen, but still outperforms it i think.

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No, as I detailed in the last part of the above post, Dark's shields only outperforms Regen's Dull Pain at actual damage mitigation when faced with Psionic or Negative damage. When faced with Energy or Toxic Damage Regen is the clear winner, and when faced with Lethal/Smashing/Fire/Cold they are roughly equal (regen is slightly better at base, but Dark pulls ahead with +HP accolades).

Dark can heal back more HP with one ability (Dark Regen) and has Gloom, but Regen can Heal back far more over time (Instant Healing and Reconstruction). Realistically they can both survive the vast, vast majority of PvE situations once the alpha strike has been dealt with.

I have personally played both Regen and Dark Scrappers to 50, and I know their strengths and weaknesses. I'm not stating that to appear arrogant, but to show that I am not basing my POV solely on meaningless figures.

Dark is generally better with more mobs, regen is generally better against fewer mobs. Both can survive alphas regularly. I would however place both far, far above SR and INV for taking alphas. SR has no capacity to recover lost HP outside of Aid Self, and INV only has one heal and poor non S/L resists. For taking an alpha effectively, you need to weather the initial spike damage and then recover the lost HP ASAP. Regen and Dark can both do this regularly and easily, SR and INV can only do the first part and with SR it's mainly down to luck.

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numbers look nice n all, but from what i know, DP only has a 40% HP boost. you can enhance the portion it heals, but not the +max HP portion. Which is why most tend to use it in combat, not before.

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The +HP is enhanceable. It goes from 40% (Base) to 60% (Max), which is reflected in Mids builder.

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using parry/divine avalanche and energy torrent to show that /regen is good at taking alpha strike is ofcourse nonsense.

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No it's not. If you can break up incoming damage so that it's recived in less of a "Spike", Regen has better opportunity to weather it than any other secondary because you have more time in which to regen/heal.

DA/Parry and Energy Torrent both accomplish this admirably.

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all the other methods require you to pop one of your mayor heals and time it just right. Which is really devastating for your survivability as a /regen in the rest of the fight (as contrairy to what most people think, your regen mostly comes from frequent use of DP and Recon. IH to a lesser extent.)

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With IH and Dull Pain both running, you simply will not need any other heals after taking the alpha strike. By the time IH finishes, reconstruction will have been back up again three times over.

There is a reason that Regens used to be able to solo tank Hamidon. Dull Pain + IH really is that powerful. Assuming that you can weather the first initial spike (where effective timing of Dull Pain's 60% +HP comes in) you will not faceplant for the rest of the fight.

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Also, as i said, IH is not of much use in taking alpha strikes, as most of the damage hits you withing 1 or 2 ticks of the power, making it effectively quite useless for the situation.

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Combined with Reconstruction, it's VERY valuable. After taking those one or two spikes of damage, by the time you've clicked recived HP from Reconstruction IH will have recovered most of the rest of your HP. Dull Pain simply acts as a buffer to allow you to take more damage from those one or two initial hits.

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A regen scrapper with DP on has 40% extra HP (not 60%) has effectively 29.5% RES to all but has to trade that for a heal that instantly heals you with 60% HP and gives you 'then' the 40% HP boost.

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Again, this applies only to an unslotted Dull Pain.

1000 HP - 400 Damage = 600 HP (60%)
1600 HP - 400 Damage = 1200 HP (75%)

Dull Pain in this case is equivilant mitigation to the first scrapper only taking 250 Damage from the attack = 37.5% damage resistance.

1000 HP - 800 Damage = 200 HP (20%)
1600 HP - 800 Damage = 800 HP (50%)

Dull Pain in this case is equivilant mitigation to the first scrapper only taking 500 Damage from the attack = 37.5% damage resistance.

By comparison, A typical /Dark gets 24% Resistance to Toxic/Energy damage, 35% to Fire/Ice/Smashing/Lethal, 47% to Negative and 59% to Psionic... making a Dull Pain'ed Regen better at all but Negative and Psi.

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Method (iv) is the way I've managed to shrug off Psi' Clockwork King alphas before. With Reconstruction triggered as soon as my health goes a nasty shade of orange. By which time the rest of the team should be railing on the AV/GM in good order which should give you some breathing room.
The impact of an alpha on a scrapper with 2100HP regenerating at a 1800-2000% rate is pretty negligible once a well slotted Reconstruction factors into the equation.

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For most things I'd agree with you completely.

AVs are sometimes a different kettle of fish though... Even with 160% HP and IH, I'm not certain that my Kat/Regen would be able to shrug off a normal PUG +2 to +4 Psi CW King's Alpha without my Striga Island "Wedding Band" temp power running. He "Nukes" you with a large amount of Psi damage at the start (which can hit for over 2k damage on its own) and the surrounding Psi Clockwork are ranged so Divine Avalanche is useless.

My Spines/DA can definately survive the alpha, but even with over 60% Psi Resists, after weathering the alpha he'll be down to about 10-15% HP and will need to pop Dark Regeneration to get back to full.

Before I levelled the Spines/DA I used to tank the Psi CW King on my Peacebringer with a fairly high success rate, and my PB could ignore his alpha by using "Quantum Flight" (Phase Shifted Fly) then afterwards popping "Essence Boost" (Dull Pain) for the +HP and switching to Dwarfie to control the subsequent aggro.

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There's going to be a lot of difference depending on resistances though.
Here's a quick example comparing two level 50 Scrappers -

(1) Regen with Dull Pain (1339 Base HP + 60% = 2142HP) (+ Accolades/Set bonuses up to the 2410 HP Cap)
(2) Dark - 1339 HP (+ Accolades/Set bonuses) (@ 60% Psi Resist)

After taking a 2000 point Psi Damage attack:

(1) 2000 damage taken, Minimum 142/2142 HP (6.6%) left, Maximum 410/2410 HP (17.0%) left.
(2) 800 damage taken (40%), Minimum 539/1339 HP (40.3%) left,

Actual HP left on either toon will depend on Set Bonuses/Accolades, my Spines/DA has 1707 HP - 20% from Accolades and 7.5% from Set Bonuses, so from a 2000 point psi attack he'd be left with 907/1707HP (53%).

You might think that 60% Resistances (Dark) = 60% extra HP (Dull Pain), but the above shows otherwise.

Note that performance will differ for different Resistance levels - for a 2000 point energy, toxic or untyped damage attack, unless the DA has extra HP from bonuses/accolades they will die so the Regen wins by default!

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4. Regen, alpha strike is most likely fatal in team missions at higher lvls

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I would rank Regen as second, straight after /Dark in terms of Alpha Strike survivability... for some situations, Regen will actually perform better (One tough opponent- AVs, or long ranged mobs- Nemesis Snipers).

There are five methods to taking the alpha as a regen, which I did regularly on my Kat/Regen in random PUGs for nearly 40 levels (he really started teaming at level 12).

It centers around strategic use of Dull Pain.

(i) For the easiest mobs (Damage over time, like Nemesis Robots or flamethrowers) you can get away with Natural Healing + Reconstruction. Dull Pain if necessary later, but the initial damage won't really bother you.

(ii) For the next tier, you can use Dull Pain before combat. This adds 60% to your HP bar, and basically makes you harder to kill. Again, you'll be relying on Reconstruction and Natural Healing to weather damage.

(iii) Use Dull Pain in combat. There is a trick to this on tougher mobs- Dull Pain takes a second or two to activate, so you should use it IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE MOBS NOTICE YOU when you jump into the middle of a mob. The timing can be tricky to get right, but you get better with practice, and if performed properly you will get hit by Dull Pain's heal just after you've started to take damage. This cuts out a considerable amount of the alpha, letting you heal the rest with Reconstruction and Natural Healing.

(iv) Use Instant Healing and Dull Pain immediately before combat. This is usually reserved for very tough fights, where you would normally faceplant in short order. Dull Pain puts you at +60% HP, and Natural Healing + IH is now acting on that greater HP. Jump in, weather the damage. Use Reconstruction when needed. Pop Hasten first too if you ahave it to get reconstruction up faster.

(v) Instant Healing First, then jump in and use Dull Pain just as the enemies notice you. This is the hardest to achieve, since the idea is effectively to let Dull Pain's slow activating Heal take a part but not all of the alpha. Since you will only be using this method on the toughest opponents, it is very easy to mess up the timing on this, take too much damage and faceplant before the Heal activates. However if performed properly, this method provides the highest alpha mitigation that non-Katana or Broadsword Regens can achieve.

(Extra) My Kat/Regen's best possible method was to Dull Pain + IH, then jump into a mob with "Divine Avalanche" queued up. This was a variant of "(iv)" which also boosted my Melee/Lethal defence to about 23% for further initial mitigation. Getting Parry double-stacked ASAP (about 2-3 seconds) will mean that the mobs will be trying to hit something with over 2000% Regeneration, 160%HP and capped melee defence...

(Endgame) At the very, very, very endgame there is an utterly brilliant way of taking an alpha that any Body Mastery Scrapper can use: Energy Torrent. It is a decent damage, fast recharging cone which has a large % chance to do knockDOWN (Unlike the blaster version which does knockBACK) on anything that is even level or higher. Since most Scrappers tend to go for Focussed Accuracy, Energy Torrent is usually a worthwhile pick. The only downside is that you can only get it at level 47 and it can't be fully slotted before level 49. If you do get it, just use it immediately before jumping into a group. It's not a 100% chance for a knockdown, so some foes will fire at you straight away whilst the others will be knocked down. This will effectively negate most of the danger from any alpha strike short of an AV.

My Spines/DA and my Kat/Regen both have slotted Energy Torrent, and use it regularly when teamed. They have absolutely no trouble at all taking alphas, and usually on most teams they'll jump into a large mob before the tanker. Speaking from my tanking experience first as a PB Dwarf (who usually ended up main tanking on PUGs) and then as a INV/SS, knockdowns don't mess up a tanker's aggro grabbing ability and experienced tanks also shouldn't mind you jumping into a group first as long as you stay there and don't let any mobs target the squishies. You'll be doing the tank a favour by negating the alpha anyway (especially on endgame mobs like Malta, Rularru or Carnies), don't let them tell you otherwise!

I haven't found mayhems any trouble at all on my Stalker. Occasionally I'll get a semi-troublesome Hero at the end, but not very often, and those occasional times are what the Demonic accolade is there for...

The best advice is to STOP AND FIND COVER when you see the blue text of an incoming longbow ambush. Having to deal with an ambush when you're fighting a mob of PPD cops is much harder than having to deal with that same ambush when you're disengaged and far away from any PPD that could aggro you during the fight.

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Why are people slotting a hold for damage? IMO that's just lame, you wanna max out acc/mez/rechg, a hold ain't really there for damage.

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Well, single target attacks are fairly hard for some trollers to come by... at least pre-41... and since the Epic Pool damage nerfs, ST holds are roughly on-par with the Epic ST blasts in terms of damage these days.

If you're using the hold in either PvE or PvP then you'll probably be spamming it to try to hold stuff and set up containment. Even without containment, if you're spamming a hold like that constantly then it makes sense to try to do more damage with it... providing that by getting the extra damage you don't diminish your ability to hold stuff.

Will it negatively impact the holding ability? Compared to the "3x Acc/Mez HO + 3 Recharge SO" slotting, you'd lose a bit of recharge (which isn't really noticeable. With a base recharge of 8 seconds and a build that includes a few LOTGs, it works out at 3.41 seconds recharge instead of 3.22 secs recharge for my Ice/FF) and a bit of accuracy (Controller ST holds get a base accuracy bonus of +20% which more than covers the loss, the +accuracy from slotting is still a good bit higher than what you'd get from two +3 Accuracy SOs. That's before taking into account any +accuracy set bonuses or the +ToHit Kismet unique)

For a Controller? Generally you'd be looking for a combination of Accuracy, Damage, Hold and Recharge.
So you won't really get much better than the below slotting:

HO:Perox(), HO:Perox(), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg:50(), G'Wdw-Acc/Hold/Rchg:50(), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50()

82.15% Acc
106.35% Dam
82.15% Rech
109% Hold.
18.55% Endurance Reduction

+12% Regen from the Devastations, add the usual +Acc/+Rech set bonuses from other powers to taste.
Bonus points for the two Perox HO's additional "+66% Sleep" effect in "Blind"...

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1. How does playing with a scrapper differ from playing with a brute?

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Much the same, except you don't need to worry about building Fury, you're always running at "full pelt". You have slightly lower defences, but the front-loaded offence tends to make up for it.

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2. What is a scrapper's general role in a team? Tanks charge in first, weather the alpha, and take all the aggro, whilst blasters hang back until everyone's engaged then start fragging minions by the bucketload, but scrappers don't seem to have such a clearly-defined task.

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Depends entirely on the scrapper, some builds (especially /SR and /Dark vs Psionic damage, or Regen vs untyped damage) can "tank" certain mobs better than tankers. /Regens and /Darks are also fantastic at taking alpha strikes because they can go from near-zero health to full quickly and regularly.

Most scrapper combinations tend to be tiered more towards "Boss killing", since the chance for a critical hit increases with mob rank... but Spine/s and /Darks work best when surrounded by big, tight mobs.

Generally it's much like Brutes, with even less emphasis on herding (no fury building is needed). Just jump in and hit stuff. If the stuff you hit first happens to 'mez' or be aggroing nearby squishies, that's a plus!

Sheesh, talk about not much warning!!

Only nine Scrappers in the 45-50 range on the server at the moment...

When soloing (especially if he takes Pulsar) he shouldn't need to use dwarfie much, providing the Human form is well built, anything in the Dwarf attacks that doesn't help when "tanking" is basically wasted slots.

I only bothered breaking my Dwarf out immediately after a Nuke, or occasionally for taking care of mezzers or for extra healing power when fighting bosses, post-38 Dwarfie basically gets relegated to teams anyway...

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Heck, wait until I11 and see what Dual Blades and Willpower can do

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I just couldn't wait....

Got my EM/Willpower planned for when issue 11 goes live!!

Think "Regen", but with Perma Dull Pain + Temporary Invunerability + Unstoppable.
And Psi Resists.
And Fear Protection.
And Defence Debuff Resistance.
And +Perception.
And a BETTER self rez.
And some Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Defence to top it all off...

But no Instant Healing, and possibly no Immob Protection... Still looking pretty damn good so far though!

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when you put some defence slots in Dwarf

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Slotting defence would be nice but Dwarf takes only resistence.

ImhO I would suggest slotting damage too in dwarf powers ^^

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I really wouldn't bother with Damage in the Dwarfie attacks, they're pretty much the definition of suckiness. Dwarf Flare has considerable use for a tanking Dwarfie as a fast recharging Knockdown PBAoE though.

Slot up Radiant Strike (Fast Activation Knockback) Incandescent Strike (Slow Activation Mezzer) and your Human Form heals, and you'll be able to solo any Void/Quantum Minion/LT. Get into melee range and only Voids will cause you problems- Quantums will try to "Brawl" you without inflicting Nictus damage.

A Knockback Protection IO will stop you being tossed about while mezzed. Quantum Flight will let you avoid an Alpha Strike from just about anything, including Voids... combined with P. Seekers it can be hilarious!

Dwarfie can get some Defence - the Global +Resistance/Defence IO from the "Steadfast Protection" set.

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Just met a void seeker. First hit took 40% (ish) of my health and knocked me down. I got up and started to run back to the lifts, second hit took me down to about 5% of my health and knocked me down again. Was close enough to the lift to get down a floor before the third hit...luckily. Not a hope in hell of getting past that at the moment. Are void seekers really necessary at level 8? Grr...

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Pop 3-4 purples and an optional breakfree, beat Void senseless, move on to the next mob...

Looks like Sunday morning BST is shaping up to be the time most people can make it. Personally i'd prefer sometime on Saturday, but Sunday's doable... I should be available until about 4:30-5PM on Sunday.

And I wouldn't rely on test staying up... issue 11 taking up all of the techies' time and all that...

I'd say in a team (Who does arena duels with villain teams anyway?) it'd depend on composition. With multiple thermals or Sonics a resistance shield will do squat, but Web Grenade is going to stop most of an enemy's movement and could make it easier to spike them. The AoE Villain Patron immobilise version can also effectively lock down most Masterminds.

One on one I'd pick the -jump/-fly/-recharge over +30% resistance almost every time. You're going to be cutting their damage output through Heat Exhaustion anyway. I'd rather stop someone getting away when they're Heat-Exhausted and Melt-Armored than worry too much about whatever ranged attacks they manage to output with nearly zero endurance recovery and a -50% damage debuff.

If you think you can manage with the temp power versions, fair play to you. After playing a /dev Blaster and /traps MM I can't put up with the default range and accuracy on them, let alone the usage limit...

Once you get Radiant Strike + Incandescent Strike anything short of a Boss Quantum/Void shouldn't be a problem... but yes, dealing with them is very frustrating at low levels. I think they just don't scale very well...

The only problem I have with the Stalker /Regen set is the low Stalker HP Cap.

Not their starting HP, but the Maximum HP they can attain. Even without a Cold Corruptor's buffs, Set bonuses or accolades, slotted Dull Pain puts a Stalker over their HP cap (157% of Normal HP, Slotted Sull Pain is +60%).

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For what its worth, I would build it something like:

1. Temp Invun
1. Stone Fist
2. Stone Mallet
4. Dull Pain
6. Swift or Hurdle
8. Unyeilding
10. Taunt*
12. Travel Power
14. Travel Power
16. Health
18. Invincibility
20. Stamina
22, onwards - take your pick.

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Nice!

That's pretty much how my Inv/SS looks (subsititute Stone Fist + Stone Mallet for Jab and Haymaker, then swap #2 for #4) except Boxing is at level 6 and Taunt is taken at 24 after KO Blow. It can be very useful to have a 3rd attack at lower levels, I went with Boxing since it opens up the route to Tough/Weave (both very nice to have on a team INV tanker).

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Taunt aura at 18??? wot do you mean by that? i got "taunt" at lvl 10 and there are no taunt auras in the INV set (as far as i know)

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The INV Taunt Aura is Invincibility, which you can take at level 18. It's one of the few (along with Chilling Embrace) that doesn't do any damage.

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About suggestion (ii)
Applies only if you aren't going to build a tanker that tanks for a team, but for a tanker that usually solo missions

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No it doesn't. A tanker that can't contribute usefully in areas other than pure damage mitigation is frankly sub-par. It's quite possible to build a good tank that has optimum resistances/defences and can still output a decent amount of damage. Even a Stone Tank can drop out of GA and use their secondary set to solo faster.

It's very rare to be able to team the entire way from 1-50 in this game unless you join a regular "superteam". The INV/SS I mentioned ended up soloing regularly whilst "looking for a team", and was a team-built tanker.

Generally solo, mainly because Shadow Cysts exist in great numbers in each mission during the final arc.

I've joined a few teams running the lower level arcs though. Quantum/Voids aren't more regular than usual.

It's 5% -Tohit base and VERY endurance heavy, so slotting is tricky. Given that Oppressive Gloom costs far less endurance and is much more useful on a AoE-damage toon, not many /DAs take CoF for PvE these days.

Also bear in mind that it'll be applying less than half that -tohit value when you're fighting +4 AVs, so realistically you'd actually be better off taking Combat Jumping or Maneuvers for the defense buffs (!!).

I think herding the clones is where you're going wrong on a Scrapper heavy team. There's no need to worry about killing the clones at all since they all die when Aeon does, just keep them occupied elsewhere while the majority of the team whomps on Aeon... I doubt we'd actually need any temp powers at all for it, just a Scrapper with a full tray of purples, good movement and taunt.

A good /Regen would probably be best at kiting, or possibly a /SR or /INV to alternate between purples and "God Mode", but my Spines/DA would be up for it if you can get another person to taunt Aeon off me...

A good /Regen is downright amazing at kiting given the proper surroundings. Back with the CoP trial was live, my Katana/Regen allowed my SG team to recover from a full wipe by kiting the big Psionic GM around and around a pillar inside the boss room... he could survive his ranged damage indefinately and got a LOT of laughs...

Normally kiting isn't used much in CoX because AVs have ranged attacks and natural regeneration (which defeats the purpose of the traditional MMORPG "Damage-over-Time attacks + kiting" strategy)... but there's no reason not to kite if you just need to keep something busy but not actually defeat it (eg. Aeon's EB clones).

Best advice I can give is:

(i) Don't base your long-term performance on your current performance. Before SOs or the equivilant IOs, tankers are rather squishy after level 22 (when you can use 25 SOs/IOs) you will be a lot tougher.

(ii) Don't focus entirely on defenses at the expense of your offensive set. My INV/SS did this before a respec, and soloing was very, very, very boooooring with just Jab, Boxing and Haymaker until level 38.

(iii) Keep a stock of purple inspirations handy. They, more than anything else, will vastly increase your survivability at low levels when you get into tough fights.

As shown in his above linked build, Nightdagger has Oppressive Gloom but not Cloak of Fear (fear's generally pants when you're damaging things with AoE powers, and the -tohit is unnoticable).

It could get interesting if we could get 3 or four /DAs all running Oppressive Gloom (Mag 2 PBAoE Stun) though. Perma-stunned AVs when the purple triangles are down...

Aeon's never been much of a problem for me on the STF before, my Sonic/Elec defender can keep all the EB clones permanently End drained and once that's accomplished the AV is very very easy (providing the temp power is used when appropriate). If we can take the clones out of the fight (think a taunting scrapper in purple-insp-heaven or God Mode running off with them) then Aeon will die quickly.


I see two starting options for the Aeon fight:

(i) For the initial Alpha Strike a /DA could run in, get aggro and then stun them all with the self rez, which would allow time for a second scrapper to start taunting the EBs. I'm quite happy to be a suicide rezzer if the situation calls for it, it's not like a Spines/DA has trouble paying off debt...

(ii) Alternatively I (or another Spines/) could purple-up, jump in, spam AoEs to get aggro and then run off with everything in tow, another scrap could then taunt Aeon and ONLY Aeon off me (since scrapper taunt is single-target) and whlile the rest of the team ganks him I'd be running about with the clones, cycling taunts on them.

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I dunno, buffing the guys that are losing seems to me like rewarding someone for sucking. I don't see how anyone will get used to playing in PVP if they can only perform well when they are buffed beyond their capabilities. Conceptually debuffing someone that is winning works better if you tie it into something like fatigue.

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Conceptually you could liken the buffing to getting more and more enraged and determined to succeed next time. It's not "rewarding them for sucking" as much as "compensating them for being killed"... as they perform better the buffs would scale down again until they're unbuffed.

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Also, you can tie into a reward system. You don't often see people leaving Siren's Call during fights because they want to cash in their Bounty points. So you can add a factor of Risk vs. Reward in there. The challenge for the debuffed person increases, and so should their rewards. If you do that, you make it less attractive for someone to remove the debuff by leaving the zone.

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I like that, but I'm not sure it's a problem going the other way either... if the person getting ganked left the zone they'd lose all their accumulated survivability buffs, so it makes sense to stay and keep the bounty points.

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I've PVP'ed since day 1 and I do know this... most if not all of the Hardcore PVP'ers in this game, like a challenge and this would certainly be a challenge. I personally would enjoy it more, if things got more difficult the longer I was in the zone, as I usually get bored after a while if things get too easy

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Understood, but would your targets getting buffed not be just as much of a challenge as you getting debuffed?

You'd be at a disadvantage either way, the difference would be on which toon is actually being affected by remaining in the zone.

Buffing people for doing badly would encourage casual/poor players to stay, whereas penalising people for doing well would do nothing for casual/poor players at all, because they would not have control on who is killing them- some other toon could easily start killing them after the first toon is debuffed.

If enough regular PvPers feel the same way you do then maybe it'd be better to move the "baseline" down below current toon performance levels? So with enough kills a good toon would only do 50% (for example) of their normal damage, but with enough deaths a poor toon would only TAKE 50% (for example) normal damage?

That would provide both a survivability buff to "poor" toons, and a penalty to "good" toons at roughly equal levels... stacking so that one toon repeatedly killing another would eventually only do 25% damage.

It wouldn't help a support toon kill a Granite Tank, but it'd help stop that toon getting Blaster-Ganked. You could even tie in the debuffing-below-normal aspect to higher level bounty rewards, opting at the appropriate contact to allow your performance to decay to 100%, 75%, 50% for different tiers of rewards...

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The reason I dont like the survivability buffs that much is because you are referring to ganking. This implies multiple enemies attacking. The buffs would have to be groundbreakingly, ludicrously, appallingly humongous to be more than a speedbump to something like team of pvp blasters with some buffs..

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Ah, ganking to me implies repeated killing of a "weaker" toon by one or more "stronger" toons.

I don't think that realistically a team of buffed blasters could be held off by one lone villain, but say, 4 blasters and an empath versus 2 corrs and a Stalker? Yeah, eventually once the Blasters score enough kills the scaling buffs would make the Villains much harder to kill. Once they're killing each other in roughly even numbers the buffs on both sides would effectively have levelled the playing field.

One caveat would be that you'd need to factor TEAM kills into the debuffing aspect... otherwise you'd have some very overpowered Tankers that just keep getting buffed and buffed, never actually killing anything themselves (which would gradually remove the buffs).

I like the "+HP" idea. Or "Resistance to all" that doesn't get affected by unresistable damage. Perhaps the easiest way would be to simply take all incoming damage and completely discard a set percentage of it, like they do currently with MM's in bodyguard mode.