Madadh
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Quote:Yeah, I don't think adding in the ability to hide the glow will piss many people off. I'm sure it'll hack someone off, but I can't imagine the reason they'd give... Almost can't wait to see that post/complaint/rant show up...Originally Posted by Rakeeb
While I'm normally the "rabble rabble devs are bad" poster, even I have to concede they got this one right. In Issue 24, this is (supposedly) fixed. The animation will still fire every 2 minutes-ish, but the "glowing fists" effect can be minimalized. -
Quote:Hmm. If the changes were made as cautiously as you lay out here, I think it could work out well.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. While the total number of debuff powers do mean that the set will always be slightly wonky I think it's entirely possible to fix the set without nuking it and starting over. Due to the fast cast time of Trick Arrow the time to apply all debuffs isn't awful, it's longer than other sets but not awful. The real issue is the lack of Alpha Strike mitigation (which most sets handle with either buffs or healing) and the fact that most of the debuffs are quite short duration (most sets use toggles to limit the number of buff applications during a fight).
That being said, I think Trick Arrow does have the potential to be given decent Alpha Strike by buffing a few key powers. In particular the fact that Flash Arrow doesn't trigger aggro means that it can be used as your first debuff without triggering the Alpha strike. Next Poison Gas Arrow will allow you to trigger the Alpha Strike from Bosses and LTs only (as well as decreasing their damage).
Now if you go back a few pages to where I did a debuff comparison you'll see that Trick Arrow is competitive in terms of -damage but is falling behind in terms of To Hit debuff. It's slightly ahead in -resistance but not a huge amount.
So given that I would do the following:
Increase the To Hit Debuff in Flash Arrow to 12%-15%
Make the sleep component of Poison Gas Arrow stackable
Increase the resistance debuff in Acid Arrow to 25% and increase the radius to at least 15 feet
Increase the resistance debuff in Disruption Arrow to 25% and increase the target cap to 16
Do a bit of general duration/recharge re-balancing so that debuffs don't have to be reapplied quite so often.
And maybe do the following:
Buff the duration/recharge of Ice Arrow, this isn't a TA specific change, I'd like to do it for all Blast sets and Buff/Debuff Sets
Increase the -recharge in Glue Arrow
The basic idea is that a TA should lead with Flash Arrow which is a "free" power in terms of enemy aggro. Then follow up with Poison Gas Arrow, the LTs and Bosses will attack for 2.5seconds but then they to will join the minions in slumber. This gives the TA time to cast Disruption Arrow and possibly Glue Arrow if desired. Total elapsed time: about 5 seconds.
At this time the TA has to make a choice. He can use Acid Arrow to further debuff the group's resistance but at the cost of waking them up. Alternative he can opt to focus either on attacking or mezzing specific targets with a lower resistance debuff while using PGA to keep the spawn asleep.
Obviously this is the solo strategy, on a team the TA will likely launch a flash arrow to effectively buff the melee's defense and then use Acid Arrow/Disruption Arrow to increase damage.
Essentially the goal of the change is that TA can't take a full Alpha Strike the way that sets like Dark or Time can but by combining Flash Arrow and PGA he can mitigate and spread out the Alpha Strike.
However to compensate for the lower than average damage mitigation TA gets a 50% resistance debuff capability and a powerful AoE attack (OSA).
I still don't feel it's necessary, but that might make it an easier set to play, especially early, without making it TOO op later on.
I'd not risk it myself, however, as the potential downside isn't worth the upside, by my evaluation, but I grant that this is a personal preference.
All in all, though, very well thought out suggestion. -
Quote:I stand corrected, I did misread you. You were referring to Disruption Arrow when you said no changes were suggested, but the previous line you were in fact talking about Acid Arrow, and I missed the transition.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Wrong.
Read back this thread. Acid Arrow is exactly the power I singled out as in need of buffing. Why?
A defense debuff that requires a to-hit roll! What's the good of that?!
A Resistance debuff that is significantly lower than similar powers in Poison or Radiation.
And AoE that has all the drawbacks of AoE powers without being large enough to reliably hit multiple targets.
DoT which bring the drawbacks of a damage power without the befit of doing enough damage to hurt a rikti money.
That said, I still disagree that it NEEDS it, but if TA as a set was going to get tweaked, I agree, this would be the place to make some changes. I suspect I'd be much more cautious and minimal in the changes I might make, compared to you, but that's only a hunch.
Well, it's not a control set, so it's controls aren't supposed to outshine controllers. Given the advantages of it's debuffs, most especially, lack of a maintenence cost. Can't be shut off via mez etc, and the sets ability to push out damage, too, I think it's a fine set in the end. But, due to it's unusual nature, it is late to develop, and does have a steep learning curve. And does requite a different approach than other sets. I don't think that makes it bad, or is a reason to change the set. Different strokes for different folks. If it doesn't appeal to you, then there are probably sets that do.Quote:No, my contention is that it has a bunch of weak powers (Flash Arrow, Ice Arrow, Glue Arrow, Immob Arrow, Acid Arrow, PG Arrow) without the compensating benefit of anything that is any better than average. It's controls are weaker than a controller, it's debuffs are weaker than a controller with a decent debuff set as a secondary.
Even if everyone agree with this, it wouldn't make it right. Unless you swap out the word 'best' for the phrase 'most popular'. But, even this bit you're wrong on. Many would argue that Cold and Traps are the best debuff sets. Many would put Dark close to the botton as a debuff set, and then put it near the top of fun and effective sets anyhow, on account of how Controllery it is. And I suspect that poison would rank dead last on many lists, when and if it isn't totally forgotten.Quote:Rad and Time are the best debuff sets, then Dark, then Cold and Traps and Poison, then TA comes puffing up the rear like a fat schoolboy. I thought everyone knew that.
The longer this goes on, the more it seems to me that you just don't like the set, but can't accept that some sets aren't for you... -
Quote:What most people consider to be true, and what is true, happen to be unrelated to each other, even assuming 15% was a correct number. But....Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I think most people would consider 15% a very significant amount.
Carefully researched also doesn't make it right. I'll be blunt, I think this number is very worng, and I'd like to see how your arrive at this. Mid's seems to disagree. Or at least v1.96 seems to say so. According to Mids..Quote:And as for the veracity of the number, it's carefully researched.
T1-t4 powers: same in damage, end cost, and recharge. KU/KD vs stun
t5: Mace does 28% more damage, but takes 28% more end, and 33% longer to recharge
does stun instead of KU
t6: was taunt, and the same
t7: Mace does 12% more damage, cost the same, and recharges at equal speed. Does stun instead of KD.
t8: Ax does 21% more damage, costs 21% more end, and takes 25% more recharge time. Maces does have a 45 degree arc to Ax's 20 degree arc.
t9: Ax does 18% more dame, costs 21% more end, and takes 25% longer to recharge. Both have 180 degree arcs, both do KD.
So, I doesn't see that conclusive to me. If you build for high recharge, and want to fight groups, Ax might seem to have a serious damage advantage vs groups. And Maces 2 arguable winning powers are the ones that stun, so, if don't happen to be a stun fan...
Note, the above powers and the numbers are based of the Brute list. I haven't investigated the numbers for other ATs, so I will allow that the difference between Ax and Mace might be more profound for a different AT.
I'm glad you can speak for the devs on this.. Doesn't make you any less wrong.Quote:But the thing is, War Mace used to be on exactly the same damage as Ax, but it was buffed because the developers felt that it was underperforming. The only reason Ax wasn't changed at the same time was because the devs only had time to look at the one that was being ported to Brutes.
When all the devs and I were hanging out chatting, they told me that Ax wasn't changed because it was fine as is.
So, now that we've both made claims on behalf of the devs without support, moving on..
I think this can't be proven either way, and is a matter of preference alone.Quote:It KD better than Stun?
Even if the spurious '15%' were accepted as true, as Stun vs Knock is a matter of preference, the end result of this comparison will vary based on that judgement.Quote:Is it 15% damage worth better than Stun?
Well, I don't think it is under-performing. Thus adding adding damage on willy-nilly isn't good for balance, and may necessitate a nerfing later. I don't think mucking with things that are fine in performance, but currently unpopular, is a stellar idea in general. I suspect that the devs may know it's fairly well balanced vs Mace, and thus if they modify it to give it more damage, in the process, they may change other numbers as well. Maybe making it slower to animate, or slower to recharge. If they did, the set might be a bit less fun moving more slowly. But, even if they didn't, and they just bolted on extra damage, and never nerfed it later, it hurts me very little personally, I'll admit, except that it makes the game less balanced, which isn't a good thing in the long run.Quote:But you haven't said anything to explain why you don't want it touched. Even if it wasn't under-performing, how would 15% more damage actually hurt you? I think I've explained how changes to EM would likely be detrimental to me personally.
Um, your quote seems out of context next to the quote of mine you referenced. So it seems sorta non-sequitar to me, and thus I can tell what you were hoping to drive at. I'll reserve any comment at this point.Quote:Yeah. That's kind of the point. Getting average powers later on does not make up for a bunch of poor powers early on. -
I like some of the fun tricks you can pull off with them as targetable, but those are very situational, so it's gonna be pretty minor either way. I can't see em changing them, and I'm cool with that, but if they do, I doubt it'll make much difference to me either.
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Quote:Originally Posted by The_South
I've not slotted any enhancements either
Just to clarify, as I think you didn't mean this literally, or everyone might be misreading.....
Have to really leveled all the way up with NO enhancements at all?
If so, I'd heartily recommend that getting some is a great first step. SOs would be the easiest place to start, but generic IOs aren't much harder to come by, and don't cost much more, but will get ya more bang. And they're a great way to get your feet wet in the invention system, without being any more complex a system to learn than SOs (slotting wise, I mean. Obviously they do need to be crafted first, unless you buy precrafted ones at Wentworths).
If you go with SOs, they can be bought in the RWZ, or in the Midnighters Club. RWZ is nice since it doesn't need to be unlocked. Midnighters is nice, as most folks unlock it by 50 anyhow. The other lvl 50 SO stores need to be unlocked with a mission first.
If you go with generic IOs, you can buy these at any invention table, but lvl 50 ones can be had a good deal cheaper at WWs with some patience. -
Quote:I will agree, that the set is wonky. Clumsy, even, in it's application. It certainly isn't the most elegantly designed set. However, one certainly can opt not to use the debuffs that aren't needed at the moment. I often skip all the defensive debuffs after I have a fight under control.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I do agree with the general sentiment though, the total time to apply debuffs is the key metric and Trick Arrow does come out somewhat poorly there due to the fact that it has to apply a lot more powers in-combat than other sets (which tend to have debuffs in fewer powers and can use out of combat time for the buff powers).
But, still, that doesn't totally fix it's wonkiness... But, buffing an individual power here or there won't do that, either. The only way that might be fixed is with a total redo from the ground up, and as I like it in it's present form, I'd be against that. If they decided to make a new TAish set, and learned from the first one, I'd happily give it a try, but not at the cost of seeing the one I enjoy go away. -
Quote:I disagree, but, neither you your I can prove this point at present.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It would need to be buffed a very long way for that to happen...
It can be a pain, I agree, but no more so than a lot of other powers. Ironic, though, that nobody is suggesting changing Acid Arrow. I feel that if TA is going to be changed, Acid Arrow is a prime candidate to have a minor change. I think upping it's area and perhaps number of targets, while leaving it non-stackable, and leaving all the other numbers as is, might be a worthwhile change, without making it too OP.Quote:And Acid Arrow can't despite having a recharge that would allow it. Which means making sure it's not over-used a pain in the butt.
Disruption Arrow is an average power, and no one is suggesting changing it.
Mind, I'd not lobby for this change, as I don't think it's warranted, but if change were to come, I think this would be a good spot for one.
It is very controlly, I'll grant that, but so is Dark Miasma, so I don't think that trolly support set=bad support set. I also don't agree that it compares badly with *any* other set.Quote:TA fairs badly whatever set you compare it with, because it's a control set masquerading as a debuff set.
But buffing one or two of it's weaker powers isn't going to change it's form.
I do agree with you, that buffing (or even nerfing) one or two of it's powers will necessarily change it's form. But, if your contention is that it's form (trolly) is what makes it the weakest set, and than buffing some of it's powers won't change it's form, then it seems to be that you're saying it'll be bottom of the barrel even if buffed, and thus needs a total rework from the group up. If that's what you're contending, I disagree totally and vehemently.
So, Debuffs only work for the whole party, and thus are more prone to leverage if it's the number one debuff set? I'll make sure to let Cold, Rad, Time, Dark, Traps, etc know that one of them is best, and the rest can't do what they've always thought they could do well, as soon as we can agree on which one is the best.Quote:Which would be a valid point, if TA was the number one debuff set. But it aint.
Trickshooter beat me to this one, so I'll not add any comments here....Quote:The above average animation times on TA attacks mean it's not exactly the most mobile set.
Like both of you, I have as well, except I really do like TA. Not hypothetically, not sorta, but I like it as is. I do think it could be tweaked slightly, without making a hash of things, but I don't feel it is warranted to mess with it, and risk such a hash, just for minor tweaks.Quote:Like Aedon, I have played and like TA.
I disagree with your evaluation, but, even if I agreed with it, I still think a set as a whole can, do to synergies, etc, be better as a whole than it's individual powers indicate. I think this is the case with TA, and that is perhaps why it's such a late bloomer, not due to any one specific power, but due to the cumulative effect of the entire set as a whole once it's developed. If that's the case, making individual powers more powerful, will make the set as a whole more powerful at the end, and perhaps by more than we might suspect.Quote:This is TA:
Some powers are weak, others are average. Weak powers could be buffed without changing the average powers.
On this topic, I'll not disagree with you in the slightest. I'll not agree, either, though, as I know nothing about this topic. It's not a set I have any familiarity with. I'm happy to let all those of you that have played it hash this one out.Quote:This is EM:
Some mediocre powers, one very very overpowered power. The mediocre powers can't be buffed without nerfing the overpowered power. -
Quote:I might call that slightly better, yes, if I agreed with this number. And if I took this number in a vacuum, and didn't account for the secondary effects. But as I don't....Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Well, if you call 15% higher DPS slightly better...
Again, as I can't specifically speak to trollers, which is the context of the quote of mine you took, so I'm lost as to how Archery even enters into it.Quote:If you want to stack those powers that are stackable, you need lots of recharge, which means lots or redraw if you don't pair it with Archery.
Thus, I don't have much comment, except to comment that if redraw is your big concern
a) I think that redraw is over-obsessed about (it's not like you're required to alternate attacks from TA and your other set, and if you choose to, that's your failing), and
b) Perhaps a weapon set just isn't for you. But because it isn't for you, doesn't alone mean it's in need of a rework.
Because if the set is fine in the end game, which I feel it is, then adding power to it early, that doesn't drop later will make it more powerful in the endgame, natch. And I'd rather a fix to TA not make it better early, just to make it potentially OP later, thus requiring a nerf at some future date.Quote:Why would you want to drop the buffs later? The late powers in TA are only on a par with other buff sets. They certainly aren't better than the late powers in Time Manipulation, Rad, or Kin, which aren't burdened with feeble early powers. -
I could swear I've seen some temps enabled in some trials, while others aren't. At this point, I'd be happier if they'd just enable everything, or block everything, for consistency's sake.
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Quote:I'm good with any buff to devices...
EDIT: Heck, I even like Devices so I'm stoked to see it getting buffed in I24. -
Quote:You're totally entitled to your stance. I've played all the support sets to 50 except force field... And my FFeler is getting close, finally..Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's a 30 second duration on a 60 second recharge. It can only be stacked with a high recharge IO build.
You originally said "no other set can stack as many and as varied debuffs on a target as TA can". I selected the sets that allowed me to counter that argument. Yes, I did select the cream of the crop but that reflects the nature of the argument I was countering more than anything else.
Your claim was that TA was the best set at debuffing and I made the argument to counter that assertion. I selected the sets I did because they are all strong debuffing sets, I could laos have selected Radiation Emission which has similar numbers. Cold Domination (the other top tier set) is different enough that a direct comparison of debuffs alone isn't really valid. In fact the only set that I would say is primarily debuffing and doesn't meet TA's pure debuff numbers is Storm Summoning but it works in a very different manner to TA so a direct comparison is somewhat tricky.
I didn't bother comparing it to Force Field, Sonic Resonance, Empathy, Pain Domination, Kinetics or Thermal Radiation because those are all primarily Buffing sets so would not be expected to match TA's ability to debuff foes.
And the sets I listed can all debuff foes to an equal or greater degree than Trick Arrow.
The mobility issues of Traps are... greatly exaggerated. I have several trappers and even when leveling them using SOs (as is my wont) I never felt like I was having mobility issues and having to wait for key powers to recharge. If a team was moving fast enough then I often didn't need to use all of my powers but that happens with any debuff-based set.
And that's where you'd be demonstrably wrong. I like Trick Arrow. I also like Time Manipulation, Traps, Cold Domination (now that the shields are AoE) and Thermal Radiation (although only on Masterminds). I do know that I don't care for Storm Summoning. But I've leveled all of them to 50 at least once except for Cold Domination (currently level 30). I'm pretty sure I'd also like Dark Maisma if I ever get around to rolling one.
So yeah, I've played debuff focused sets enough to feel pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about when I say that Trick Arrow feels underpowered compared to the other debuff focused sets.
EDIT: Heck, I even like Devices so I'm stoked to see it getting buffed in I24.
Traps is Far behind, based on the lack of mobility, but some folks don't care.. The others are all based on preference.. Some folks can't play Dark, so what. Some folks can't play rad, oh well.. Some folks don't know how to play TA. So sad..
And, I think you are underestimating Storm, too..
But, regardless, I suspect we'll end up with our own preferences. I tend to think I'd support TA, and rad, and storm, but, if you'd rather champion against them, so be it.... 3 of my favs.. -
Quote:I will agree that TA isn't the best set out there. And I doubt anyone said it was, as is. But, if buffed, it may become so.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Ok, there are two general responses I want to address to this post:
Among the things I want to point out.
1) Disruption Arrow, as it is, can be stacked, and that's a fun advantage.
2) You only seem to be comparing TA to the completely acknowledged 'creme of the crop' powersets. And proving it isn't the best ever is far from proving it isn't worthy of continuing in it's present form.
3) Debuffing an enemy affects everyone, while buffing only affects the buffed party.
4) Traps? I think this is a decent comparison, but... Traps has a mobility issue that TA just doesn't. TA can roam. Traps just cant.
Aedon, I get that you just don't like TA as it is.. It may not be your thing. And that's fair. But, as a player of the set, I think that buffing it, will only result in it being nerfed later... I'd like to avoid that. Hence my hesitation... -
Quote:Yes, it's a bit behind it's sister in pure DPS. So but, being a hair behind, is that a measure of being horribly underperforming? I doubt it. I think think the pure KU/KD mechanic makes for more sustained pure AOE dps, but..Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Ax went to blither in the corner when Mace was buffed.
When people say they want Ax buffed, they don't mean to change the set. Just mess with some numbers so that it is more equal to its sister set.
Even if I'm wrong, is it necessity that every set perform exactly as every other? If so, why not just have 1 set with a lot of skins?
Mind you, if it was just a pure re balancing, then I might be OK with it. But Ax doesn't 'under perform' and thus needs no review. But, it might not not compare perfectly to it's near twin. If I could be certain that it would just be made more like it's twin, I'd be less opposed. But, I see no guarantee of that, and as it does more than averagely well, I'll stay against it being changed. -
Quote:Point 1: I think you're worrying far too much about damage numbers that really, don't differ by much.. Is Mace slightly better? Perhaps. How many builds can leverage that slight difference to much? Not frikking many..Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Er, Ax used to be nearly identical to mace until Mace got buffed.
I don't think anyone is suggesting changes to Ax beyond buffing it's damage to be more in line with similar sets, like Mace.
Played Illusion/TA controller to 50. Whilst fun, the frantic bow-swapping makes it seem very clumsy, and quite a few powers seem very weak for their effective activation times.
I think you are worrying to much. I think those early powers could be buffed quite a long way before the set became overpowered...
Personally, I would like to see those earlier powers (Acid, Glue, Ice, Poison Gas) made much more effective but with longer cooldowns to reduce weapon-swapping.
Edit: This is what I would do to Trick Arrow. Firstly, I believe the tech now exists to have Flash Arrow ignite Oil Slick without it having to damage other targets. That would solve one issue. The other thing I would do is increase the radius of Acid Arrow to 15', increase it's resistance debuff to 30%, and increase it's recharge to 40s.
Point 2: I can't comment at all on this. Not a troller type, and not an obsessive redraw type.
Point 3: I'd be OK with buffing the early powers, if those buffs dropped later. I don't think they will. Not sure that's even in the spirit of the game.. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I'll forgive you if you forgive me for disagreeing with you.
The fact that it is considered late-blooming at all should be indicative of some kind of balance problem. Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow are crutches holding up 7 other limping powers*.
*Maybe 6, Poison Gas Arrow isn't so bad, anymore.
Of course I forgive you. I value free discourse almost as as holy writ.
I still disagree. I like that all sets don't act identically, including maturation speed. I agree that the low lever powers seems week, but the finished product certainly isn't. Therefore, if you buff the set, you will buff the finished product, which is fine as is. If you buff a set that is fine in endgame, you'll likely end up with an OP endgame set. Which will require (or should) a round of nerfs. What would you nerf? I just don't know, but I suspect it'll be the t7, t8, and t9s. Which, as you pointed out, and I agree with, are on par.. So..
I think TA is a 'hive mind' set. It really only gets good when you have all of em to act as a hive, and act together.. I, personally, am OK with that.
Obviously, some differ.
As an addendum, I like that we've hijacked this from the all Energy Melee thread, which seemed to be it's fate. And I wonder where my Ax went? -
Quote:I see your points. More than that, I recognize, that while all opinions have validity, some just are more valid than others. And I will concede that mine might aren't supported by any research or numbers, but are just my gut feeling, and therefore are perhaps prone to serious bias.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The thing is I don't agree that Trick Arrow is "fine but late blooming". I agree that power-wise it is a back-ended set but I think that says something more about the quality of the early powers than the late powers.
Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow are both nice powers but they aren't inherently out of line for Tier 8 and 9 powers in a Buff/Debuff set. For example compare OSA and Emp Arrow to Fallout and EM Pulse in Radiation Emission. Obviously the powers aren't identical and OSA is obviously not as situational as Fallout (due to not requiring a corpse) but the basic power level is about the same. However the rest of Radiation Emission is quite a bit stronger than the rest of Trick Arrow. The debuffs provided by IR, EF and LR are quite a bit stronger than the combo of Flash, Glue, PGA and Disruption in everything except resistance debuff (and it's almost as much there).
Now Radiation Emission is one of the stronger Buff/Debuff sets and I don't expect TA to be bought up to it's level but I would like to see it bought up so that it's somewhat closer to the level of performance that Rad, Traps, Dark and Time enjoy.
But, from what I can see, the ability to stack debuffs, which TA excels at, is perhaps a problem balance wise. Since TA has no buffs at all, all it does is debuff. And, at some point, that's fine. Or even weak. But, it can be leveraged into something very nasty. As I have done, and I am sure, others have done even better.. I like that it can be leveraged into something awesome, but that it takes time and effort.. If you make it better at some levels, than it will be even better at the upper levels... And that leaves it being prone to being far overpowered by those that might want to leverage it. And you can guarantee that, given the chance, some will leverage it to the extreme.
So, barring also nerfing (which I don't feel it needs or warrants) the set at the same time, I don't think it can be easily buffed by any significant metric. There are a few exceptions, but I have concerns that any proposed changes would stay just to such narrow area.
As a last point, I'm not sure strait comparisons to other sets are valid. No other set is pure debuff, and thus, no other set can stack as many and as varied debuffs on a target as TA can. If it can use any improvements, I suspect they should mostly be confined to buffs or area. In most cases, I doubt that an enhancement of the values of the powers should be upped. -
Quote:Sadly, as much as I might like to agree with this suggestion, my feelings mirror Strato's here. I'd like to think it would be good, but have reservations. And, as it can already b e determined which sets are popular, I am uncertain about it's value..Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If only people could be trusted. Sigh.
I am generally an optimist and I actually have a very strong belief in the inherent goodness in most people. But even I am doubtful of the rate of honesty you would get.
Besides, the devs can already see which sets people make, play, and keep playing. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Trickshooter
By "later powers" I assume you mean Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow. I doubt you would ever have to worry about either one getting nerfed in order to better the performance of the earlier powers.
The earlier powers perform poorly because they have poor values. Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow perform well because they are well balanced. Believe me, if Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow were in need of nerfs, so would many similar powers.
For reference, Oil Slick Arrow at 50 only does about ~100 points more damage over 15 seconds than Rain of Arrows does in 1 second. All at 3 times the recharge of Rain of Arrows. And EMP Arrow takes a 60 seconds longer to recharge than Controller AoE Holds, all for about 7.5 seconds longer Hold, and it comes with a penalty for the caster.
Again, no need to worry.
I hope you'll forgive me, but I always worry when sets that seem fine and perfectly balanced, if late-blooming, get a once over... -
Quote:I mostly agree with your main points. I just disagree that popularity is a perfect measure of performance. And I disagree that TA under-performs, except early in it's development (and, in truth, in the mid range, too), which it undeniably does. Especially as more and more of the game focus goes to end game, buffing sets because the bloom late make less and less sense.Originally Posted by Trickshooter
It's not about appeal, though; it's about performance. I don't like Radiation Emission, but I would never wander in to a thread like this and suggest it should get a buff that makes it more appealing to me, because I know it doesn't need one. The issue isn't how well it works, because I know it works well; I just don't enjoy it.
Meanwhile, I love Trick Arrow, but it is noticeably weaker than other support sets at offering support. If someone comes along and says,"Trick Arrow is crap and is useless," I will probably be one of the first to show up and defend Trick Arrow's pros. But that doesn't mean I pretend it has no cons, and if someone asks me what gives Trick Arrow a bad rap, I have a long list to read off to them.
From a business standpoint, this game makes money from the players' desire to roll alts. The drive to make more characters is a major part of what will make a player on a free account give their money to NCSoft. Powersets that are outliers create a problem for that business model.
A powerset that underperforms is a powerset that won't entice someone to roll an alt with that set, which is potentionally lost revenue.
Likewise, a powerset that overperforms is a powerset that will make similarly categoried sets feel less like they're worth playing. Again, that leads to NCSoft losing potential money.
You know what would probably be really interesting? If the Devs gave us a way to rate every set in-game (that way more than just forumites would take part), the results of which updated dynamically and was visible at character creation. The Devs would get to see which sets are considered good by most players, and players would get some kind of way to judge the performance of a set before they played it (outside of the numbers, which plenty of people love to make clear that they don't care for >_>).
I think a lot of the sets that 'under-perform' just suffer from reputation issues, and that buffing them to make the more appealing leads more people to play them, sure, but then makes the set more to the OP side, thus requiring so other set or sets to get a buff to keep in line with the average (performance and/or popularity).
And, the point of my quote that you quoted, was meant to illustrate my opinion that sets that some people say under-perform, if others think they work just fine, might be a result of play-style clashes between how the set works,and how some people try to play the set and or just plain preference. I see no reason to believe that as many people love such a lame set as traps except that somehow, I can't play it to it's best advantage. IE, I seem to suck at it, not that it is a bad set. Thus, my point, the set doesn't suck, I just don't make best use of it. I suspect that when I hear people complain about a set I farm with as being weak and underpowered, that perhaps, in that case, it might be them, and not the set. -
Quote:Ax is almost identical to Mace, and nobody complains about Mace under-performing, that I have heard at least. Ax just trades disorient for more KU and KD, which, if you want to keep things close for PBAOE fun, is a better choice IMHO. Solid AOE, and solid single target, with lots of mitigation; what's not to like?Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Be interested in hearing your reasons why. (NB, I am not disagreeing with you, I'm just interested.)
As for TA, it's fine at level 50. It's just an incredibly late bloomer. And, as far as I can tell, it's not seen as under-performing on Trollers (though my troller TA is only lvl 20ish, so I can't attest to this persoanlly), so it's only on Defs and Corrs that people seem to have problems with it. I can imagine the crashless nukes (Crashless nuke on an OS, with a DA or 2 out, yes please) and other blast set changes might make TA shine a little faster. But, the only thing I can see changing to make TA better in and of itself, is buffing early powers, that pretty much means nerfing later powers to stop it from being OP at 50, which isn't a trade off I want. I have no problem with late blooming power sets, especially not since the XP smoothing have made the leveling process a lot faster/easier. I consider it worth the wait. If they don't nerf it at the same time the buff it, I can easily imagine it getting a nerfing soon after, which is just silly, and frankly, will be a PITA to potentially have to rework a TAs build twice in quick succession. Best leave it alone, and accept that some sets mature faster than others, IMHO. -
Quote:I've gotta agree here. Every set needn't appeal to everyone. I personally just can't get into Traps. Should it be buffed somehow? Changed, even? How about Warshades? I'm not overly fond of those, either. Change those? Buff them? Doubt it....Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I never said it didn't work or it didn't make sense. It was just odd.
I brought it up precisely to demonstrate the point that different is good. Just because I expected and would still love a more defensive oriented armor set, doesn't mean Shield should be changed.
Just because I am an AoE nut and think control is overrated, doesn't mean EM should be changed. -
Quote:Please, leave my Ax alone. And I'm pretty leery about TA getting messed with, too....Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Yes, those two clearly underperform. As does Trick Arrow, Force Field, and quite a few others. -
Quote:Ice melee might need some help, I'll agree with that, but I think I'd much prefer you leave my Ax alone. By far one of my favs brutes...Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Energy Melee has middle-of the road single-target, and poor AoE. And the ST-damage standing is assuming that the target is still alive when you hit it, which may not be the case in team play. It may not be the worst set in the game right now, but it's not good at anything, either. In my opinion, it's one of the three melee damage sets that at least needs to be looked at. The other two being /Axe and /Ice Melee.
The numbers back up that EM needs some help to put it on par with the other melee sets. Not a lot, but a bit. And just because the set works for you doesn't mean that the set isn't underperforming. Old Ice Melee worked for me, but it was quite the weak set. -
I love Storm/Archery, and rarely ever notice redraw in my normal play style, but my style and yours might quite likely not be the same.
Freezing Rain and RoAs is a fun, winning combo.
The problem is, though, that other than suggesting TA/Archery, you will have some redraw, and we have no way to know what your play style is, or what amount of redraw you can deal with, and what amount for you is a deal breaker.