Lycantropus
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Well I was planning to release it after the 1st, but since tomorrow is I-23, I figured that might overshadow it a bit
so I decided to release it today to give you something to kill time while waiting for tomorrow's neat stuff.
This re-write of the canon story arc follows up on Carla Brunelli's story "002(A)-The Clockwork Captive: FREEDOM Style" where you get to help a young Hero Corps recruit get to the bottom of what makes the Clockwork tick.
So without futher ado:
Name of the arc: 002(B)-Mind of a King: FREEDOM Style
by: @Lycantropus
Levels: 15-19
Arc ID: 546987
I hope you enjoy! -
Quote:I have to agree with this. I see no need to buff Tankers, or screw with Brute survivability just to make Tanks feel better. I play both, and enjoy each for different reasons.Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I disagree with it.
Until I see a clear problem statement I won't agree to any solution. Because they aren't solutions they are just random suggested buffs.
When people state an actual problem with tankers the solutions are easy and obvious. The problem with this thread is people unwilling to state a problem because what they really want is a buff to tankers which is not justified.
The role of 'Tank' doesn't directly fit into the Superhero Genre short of a few instances. Ben Grimm fighting the Hulk to distract him so the authorities could get everyone evacuated safely is pure tanking (and a really old-school reference- great comic though... sigh, I feel old now) so there is precident for the role in some capacity. However, it's important to the balance of the game, and an important role in many team compositions. We can't play out direct comic-book fights because of the limitations of computer programming and honestly, enjoyment of gameplay (like knockback happens all the time in comic books to everyone melee and ranged alike- do we really want that?)
So in it's most direct form, a Tank is the melee aggro manager, taking the alpha and hits for the team, skillfully arranging the aggro so everyone else can fill their role to their fullest (mass control, AoE's, keeping everything close for buffs, debuffs, etc).
Tanks can do this just fine.
Thing is, as people keep pointing out, so can Brutes... just as well as Tanks.
This has less to do with what they can survive, than it does with how well they can hold aggro. Sure, they need some to generate Fury, but they don't need to do it as well as a Tank. When the AoE's start flying, some of that stuff needs to peel off them and redirect their attack.
Adjusting their Threat rating alone could fix this. It wouldn't hurt them at all solo, while making Tanks on the team more desirable for aggro management. Brutes would still be welcome on teams the same as Scrappers, for their damage output and to help with aggro management. I kind of see Brutes as that bridge between Tanks and Scrappers. Able to dish it out, but able to generate a little more aggro than Scrappers to protect teammates. Scrappers have the advantage of the best reliable sustained damage of the three.
It's more a matter of role enforcement than giving a serious debuff or buff to anybody. Other than that, I don't see a problem with any of them.
That's why I'm looking at Threat ratings. If that's not the case, maybe a very modest buff to the Tank's aggro cap would be nice, but I think Threat is where the issue lay more than anything.Quote:Originally Posted by Rangle M. DownNot everyone agrees with this idea, so it's not 100%. I personally don't think it's "necessary", nor a "fix" to tanks.
I also believe that aggro caps are universal across all character, so if you raise the aggro caps for Tanks, you would essentially be raising brute, scrapper, blaster, etc aggro caps too. -
Quote:This.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm leaning more and more toward the camp that says "Get rid of/convert shards and recipes and just have everything drop threads/astrals/empyrians when the system's unlocked." Yes, it'll be slower than running iTrials, but it will seriously avoid burnout for people like me that like variety. They can't make the Incarnate content fast enough to avoid burnout, especially for the altaholics the game otherwise encourages.
So much this. Can't stress it enough. My interest in the incarnate storyline wanes with every issue it seems because of how much work (and yes, I mean work) it becomes to follow it, and I'm a huge fan of the story of the game. I'm still willing to do it in what little time I play without my SG (who for the most part want nothing to do with the grind) but the prospect of a single trial needed to unlock it over multiple plays is... starting to be a bit daunting... and maybe a little irritating.
I've typed, erased, typed, erased over 30 minutes worth of me trying to explain myself, but Memphis Bill really put it so well I'm hard pressed to have anything better to say about it, so I'll leave it at that. -
I've actually played them all recently. I do them for fun; I really like the stories if not how they're always told. I love seeing how some of the original story arcs laid the groundwork for things that are just now starting to come into play, like with Dark Astoria.
I also do them for research for my FREEDOM Style series I'm working on in the AE, and frankly, for the xp and merits as well.
Did I mention Oroborous is one of my favorite additions to this game? -
Quote:See, to me, that would be an acceptable level of aggro control for Brutes. They'd get enough aggro to build fury, but would really have to work hard to contain all the aggro and "tank" for large groups, and even then some would peel off to those with the right combination of damage/coverage.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The primary factor for the effectiveness of taunt is duration. The reason Willpower has more difficulty is because the taunt duration on its aura is only 1.25 seconds; that compares to Death Shroud's 13.6 seconds or Invincibility's 17 seconds.
So overall; normalize Tank aggro ability across the board (basically just fix WP and SR... is Sheild low too?) maybe a modest boost to their aggro cap, then adjust all Brute aggro ability to current WP/SR levels, and maybe lower their aggro cap just a hair. This, of course, would need to be tested, and there may be a tweak needed in Fury generation if it affects it too much. Examine Scrapper aggro too just for good measure.
Possibly add a visual effect to Guantlet as someone mentioned just to enforce what it does visually for players. That would also give Tanks an idea of where there may be weak spots in their management. Maybe something like the 'stun' swirls around someone's head, except in red?
I've been playing a lot of my Tanks and Brutes lately since this thread was brought up, trying to get a feel for what that 'something' could be. I honestly think both of them are fine as is for the most part, but I think they are very overlapping in style, expecially in the high-end game, with brutes doing more damage (as just about everyone agrees). A few minor tweaks could go a long way to differentiating between them without harming either one. The easiest place that could be adjusted with minimal muss would be in aggro management. I say muss instead of harm, because I'm happy with how both AT performance as they stand, and wouldn't want to see that changed. They do need a different 'appeal' to them though that's not as prevalent as it could be currently. Happy Brutes should see a nice Fury bar, while happy Tanks should see lots of aggro. -
Quote:The trick to this one is, if Tanks are de-facto better at managing aggro, more will be made redside, just as we now see Brutes springing up Blueside.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
As long as it doesn't negatively effect situations where all you can get is a brute (namely a full villains side team or when there are no tanks available) for aggro management, I see no issue.
This has been my experience also. The actual use of Gauntlet is a little dodgy since everything it's going to affect most of the time is in your aggro aura anyway. Plus the area of effect for Gauntlet is very small. Things have to literally be standing next to the target you hit.Quote:Originally Posted by BrandXThis becomes a bit less of a factor with AOEs and Taunt Auras.
Threat levels make a difference though. I've had no trouble maintaining aggro with my Dark/Dark Brute, for example, however my WP Tank has noticeably more difficulty with large mobs due to the lower threat level and maybe lack of a damage aura (not sure which reason is more prevalent in this regard). -
That's interesting. The evidence is more compelling with the title "The Flying Stars" in contrast to City of Heroes group she's affiliated with "The Shining Stars". Having not read this book, I'm interested if the rest of the cast is somehow represented by members of this supergroup as well? Twinshot, Proton, etc.
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There's a concept from a physics professor going around about "The Miracle Exemption" which allows for any concept with the idea that allows for one thing outside current thinking to be allowed.
It's only one thing that breaks physics and the laws as we know it, but as a product changes everything. However, since it's this one rule, our minds can accept it, and apply it to any storyline. have you looked at that? That may give you the one link you're looking for.
Hope I've helped!
Lyc the 'miracle-link' werewolf.
EDIT: The trick is in what your 'miracle exemption' means between what your world considers between 'human' and 'non-human' in terms of ability, since you can have human psychics within the physics of your universe, for example. -
My son and I just watched this.
Best.
Voice.
Combo.
Ever. -
And the last run of posts only convince me more that it's more about aggro management than survivability.
I don't care what a Brute can or cannot survive vs a Tank. The fact that it's aggro management is the same is what makes them just as 'useful' and do more damage. It seems like everyone wants to nerf their resistance/defense caps, but that won't change that they can hold the same ammount of aggro, and as everyone keeps saying 'with the proper buffs' (whatever they are dependent on the Brute) a Brute can tank as well as a Tank. What it can resist is almost pointless in comparison. A well buffed anything does a better job than a non-buffed something.
Again, lower the Brute's Threat rating, making spawns more inclined to peel off them when others attack in teams, and normalize the Tank's Threat rating, and possibly increase how many they can retain aggro on, so they're desireable again for what they're supposed to be about. Even if they can't do the latter because it's a universal constant, they can affect the former, making Tanks the unequalled contender in aggro management again.
I really think that would be enough without effecting sweeping changes to Brute's survivability just to make Tanks feel special. -
Quote:I'm pretty sure they're the same.Originally Posted by Abyssus
Im curious, is the aggro cap the same for brutes and tanks? If so, that seems like an obvious place to start for balance between the two. The tanks job is to keep aggro, the brutes job is...i gues to do damage and survive? Anyways, seems like a no brainer to me.
Reducing brute caps and what not would be alright with me but i don't think it would be a good idea. No point in pulling brutes down to make tanks happy. It should have been done in GR beta but thats in the past.
However, I personally wouldn't want to lower their cap, just their ability to retain it. Being able to attract aggro is important for Brutes for Fury generation, though I have soloed (with solo numbers) and can generate Fury just fine. The fact that they have some aggro retention is how they keep it going in teams, where aggro can get spread all over. The main thing is that they have the same ammount of aggro retention as Tanks, making them able to 'tank' entire groups just as well.
With a weakened Threat rating, the Brute would still be able to generate enough aggro around themselves to get fury but in a large group, once damage starts flying, more of those mobs will peel off and attack their teammates.
I know this from my Willpower Tank having a Threat of 3 in his aura vs. my Invul and Dark Brutes having a 4 (the same as all other Tanks, except SR, which is also a 3). Happens quite often, even though I do retain a good ammount around me, I can't protect my teammates as much.
So making all Tanks at a Threat of 4 and Brutes at 3, give a modest increase to all the Tanker's caps (don't decrease the Brute's) would go a long way to making Tanks stand out again without any major nerf to anyone else. As a throw in, I'm not sure what Scrapper caps for Threat/aggro aura is, but those should be examined too.
I honestly think that'd make Tanks more desireable in teams, and give them back that 'something' that they specialize in.
See, to me it's not about Brute survivability, it's that they can tank enough to give the perception that there's no point to Tanks. Other than that, leave them alone.
I still get called in the few PuG's I get into sometimes about my Brutes not getting Taunt until later in the build (if at all). I politely remind them, I'm not a Tank, but I can switch to one if they want
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Wasn't a huge fan of 3rd (though there were a few things I liked). Don't like 4th at all. No, probably not.
Not crazy about WotC's business practices in general either, which pretty much makes up my mind for me. Besides, I have a ton of games/systems spanning decades to work with so that has a lot to do with it too.
Though I'm looking really hard at taking the plunge into Shadowrun 4th ED.
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Quote:Too late...Originally Posted by Sevenpenny
Wait I better not give Hollywood execs any bright ideas about turning this movie into a musical....
You've never seen Re-Possessed? They actually got Linda Blair to return to the screen for it. -
Quote:Nah, I think he's still working an angle. He wanted to go back to Asguard, and he has.Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
Loki is doubtless quite bright and a reasonable judge of character. However,he's no Lord Nemesis, as he suffers from four classic supervillain failings:
1. The assumption that his plan IS going to work as intended with no secondary/backup plans.
2. Massive superiority complex, especially when it comes to judging character.
3. The assumption that heroes can't bluff, play fair(ish), and don't have twisty backup-plans themselves (notably: exploding arrows).
4. Treating a hero team as less than the sum of its parts.
I think the next Thor movie will be a follow up to the Avengers chronologically.
Why?
The 'big bad' at the end is Thanos.
The Invinity Guantlet is in Odin's armory.
"If you fail us, there is no place you can hide from us, no distance, no barren moon you can hide on that we cannot find you..." (to paraphrase the leader of the Chitari).
You do the math. Loki's still playing them all. -
Quote:The thing is, for me at least, it wasn't about the damage. Darkseid didn't even look that hurt. I was referring more to the 'feeling' of power in the punches, the knockdowns (and knockback which looks great in comics and cartoons, but aren't as cool in game for Melee) the bursts of air and concussive force bubbles around the blows that, to me, represent Gauntlet.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I agree with you that link is what Tankers should be all about. But they're not, and that is why I'm not going to quit on them.
.
If we can convey that sense of power (not necessarily damage) for Tanks, then we definitely hit a win.
Though I'll admit, in some ways, I'm style over substance. If it takes me 2-3 extra punches my Brute wouldn't have to take to defeat an opponent, I don't care as long as I look and feel powerful when I'm doing it.
Though I tend to play my Brutes as if I were on a feeding frenzy, and Tanks as undefeatable bastions of strength (which is why I like both so much- different gameplay for me) and most of the time they pull it off.
Unlike my Scrappers though, I don't like soloing bosses on either my Tanks or Brutes. The Tanks take too long, and the Brute's have trouble building fury against a single boss, and if I get enough aggro to build fury to fight the boss, I get overwhelmed.
Of course both of these problems fade with heavy IO sets and Incarnate powers, but again, that's the 'high performance' game the Dev's don't cater to. -
Quote:I really think we're past the point of that, and now the focus is on refining with little tweaks here and there. I agree, anything more and they'll have to go whammo. That's been the focus of my suggestions, at least.Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
We can't have this both ways.. remember how we got these buffs in the first place. Becareful what you wish for... buff buff buff then HARD nerf.. seems to be the trend here..
Tanks will probably never get another damage buff. They're fine as is, maybe a little slow.
Brutes have already taken a hit to damage, and without buffing or heavy IO slotting aren't as durable as Tanks. Most of these arguments are based around high performance, which the Dev's don't cater to generally.
However, Compared to Brutes, and somewhat to Scrappers- Like Stalkers once did, Tanks tend to underperform a bit (Note: A BIT) and with Brutes and Tanks now mingling freely, they lack that 'something' that sets them apart like before.
Just minor tweaks to... something (I guess that's what we're really talking about here and trying to decide) to make them shine again would be my goal.
They've (the Dev's) have stated concern over it, but are probably at as much of a loss as we are as to what exactly to do that we would approve of without making them overpowered or broken (for good or ill).
Assuming a damage buff is off the table, and if only minor things can be done to adjust Tanks, and possibly other AT's (without damaging current performance on that AT's part personally) to make them shine again.
For example, I suggested possible changes to the aggro mechanics for each, because that wouldn't affect an AT's performance on a 'personal' level, but would affect the 'team' environment and desire/expectations of an AT. -
Quote:I'm not afraid to call out for nerfs if I really felt they were needed. I just think there's only one category where that should be examined in this case though, and that would be in aggro management.Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm not for a heavy round of nerfs, but a lot of people do seem to be afraid to just say "Nerf this AT a bit so the other AT is where it should be."
I think strategic lowering of aggro auras/modifiers/taunt effects of Scrappers, and particularly Brutes, and a mild boost to the same on Tanks can make a world of difference to the AT, without jeapordizing anything Scrappers or Brutes need to thrive. So what if enimies peel off and attack my allies as long as I can keep my fury bar high? Right?
Well your teammates will notice, and while they appreciate the damage you bring to the table, a Tank would come in awful handy to manage that aggro you can't.
That's all I'm thinking when it comes to that. Possibly tweak fury if it really effects their performance, though I don't think it would if done strategically. Wouldn't be the first time they've done it anyway.
Keep in mind, I love my Brutes too, but I don't need anywhere remotely near a x8 mob to keep my fury high. -
Quote:That's... That's downright elegant.Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
Personally I don't think Tanks are broken,.. However, since this has turned into a wish list thread.. I'll provide my wish..
I want taunt as a power pick for Tanks to happen automatically at lvl 1. If we are ment to be aggro magnets then this should come in as an inhereted power (outside of gauntlet) like fly comes to PB's and TP comes to WS's.
This way we can get one power selection more than brutes can get. I do not think that Brutes and Scrappers should get this option since their primary focus isn't to hold aggro likes tanks are ment to.
*Just a suggestion to throw out there* this way you're not nerfing brutes, but giving something to Tanks to add more DPS.
That slot could become an extra attack to help with their damage output...
Or maybe a Power Boost style power to increase the effectiveness of (or chance of) their Stuns, Fears, Knockdown, etc. with a mild damage boost as well just for a little kick, maybe adding range as well to AoE's and Taunts. Something like this would have the benefit of not needing a new animation for it as well. As long as there's the option to have that 'fist to the air power up' animation as well as a regular build up style one.
For me, I don't think Tanks are 'broken' either, though I do think they can use something to make them stand out a little better compared to the other Melee AT's. -
Quote:However, as you pointed out to me, and I concede as truth, Tanks aren't as 'definable' as they were when there were specific heroes and villains.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I am against strengthening Tanker AoE capabilities. I don't think that fits with them conceptually. Tankers are not bullies that choose to unleash their power on groups of peons and are inept at fighting tougher foes. If anything, they do the opposite in comics and other media: unleash their power on the hard targets and hold back against the mooks. Indeed, the fact that Tankers shrug off mook attacks so well and can often ignore them is the reason they would put their attention and power into putting down the big threats.
Plus, I think of this more as the 'blowback' from the fight with the big threats, making the 'lesser' targets take notice and want to try and help their 'boss'. Sure it could also make them run away, but that would go against the desire of the game mechanic vs. comic book logic.
Take some of the episodes of the JL/JLU (among many other sources). There were some fights with a big baddie where Superman would punch them and there was this concussive field that knocked things over and shattered pavement under their feet just from the force of the blow. To me, that's what that range would represent (that's kind of how I've always pictured Gauntlet in my mind anyway).
I mean HOW TANK IS THIS?!
One of my favorite scenes in this series, which is saying something, there's a lot of good scenes in it. -
Quote:I like this idea. That little extra spread with some possible boosts to the 'control' component (fear, stun, knockdown, etc). This is what I was referring to my earlier posts.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Still ringing on my Gauntlet change. If that basically amounted to bigger AoEs, one would be able to affect more foes and thereby protect teammates better.
*snip*
Aaaaaaannnndd...if Tankers' AoEs were larger and could hit more foes, they could effectively take down more foes faster and possibly break even with Scraps/Brutes, possibly even pulling ahead on minions but beginning to lag when Lts and Bosses are introduced. That's where Bruising comes in. If Tanks also had adjusted rech and endurance costs on their ST powers, it's possibly this might have an affect on powers cycled to make up for inserting the tier 1 in every so often.
It sort of hits on several aspects of 'strength'...beating/hurting lots of foes, more likely and wider secondary effects, striking through/past enemies with your powers, and being at the center of it all.
Don't know if they'd want to re-work powersets just for Tanks, but if it wouldn't be a lot of trouble, I could definitely stand behind something like this. -
Quote:If mobs don't last long enough, then the team is effective and whose damage output is what doesn't matter, in my opinion of course. Bruising, to me, is most effective when fighting the bigger things that take a while to bring down. That's when these little buffs make the biggest difference.Originally Posted by Profit
So what your counting on is stacked bruising allowing tanker attacks to take advantage of the higher cap which would in effect give them a psuedo dmg boost instead of just boosting dmg and being done with it. I am hoping you also took into account that on a team of 8, mobs don't often last long enough for bruising to stack on any one target which would mean dmg for a tank in a 8 man team would still be closer to what it is today.
Looking at in the stand point, you would see a fairly decent increase in dps from bruising and the higher cap when solo and on a team of say, up to 4, but once you break 4 then the dmg should come back down to the levels they are at now just based on the time to live of the mobs.
Did I interpret that right?
I'd honestly like to see a smaller but stackable brusing effect in every Tank attack, not just the first one. That means more chances for it to go off, the potential for stacking increasing the longer the fight goes on against any target, or in the case of cones and AoE's, every target. This would make them more desireable on teams (particularly ones fighting big bags of hit points like AV's and Giant Monsters) and also really be a nice damage boost for them when soloing without actually giving them a direct damage buff.
That's probably the easiest change they could make without having to re-balance powersets.
And again, have them re-examine aggro retention and caps for Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers. If Brutes can hold aggro better than a Tank, or can even hold aggro well enough to be indistinguishable from a Tank in that regard, something is probably wrong.
Of course if you really want to add flair, they could bring back that bug that had guantlet causing the attack's damage to land on every target guantlet affected, every time an attack was made. Tanks would really stand out then!
Yeah, it was broken, but it was fun...
EDIT: Also, a mechanic like Brusing is more heroic 'team' oriented trait, like most hero benefits tend to work out, wheras most villain ones tend to be self-buffing (I.E. the difference between Call to Justice and Frenzy, for example) -
Quote:I don't buy that. This game is old enough that the current subscriber rate at the time of Freedom's launch was little more than free money. It survived for a long time on life support (the surviving 15) enough to convince NCSoft to buy the IP, put money into it, and make Paragon Studios a growing business platform.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Freedom was a last ditch bid for survival, so there wasn't much point in putting too much work into something that was several issues down the road.
I really dislike how some folks try to make it look like this game is dead when it continually surpasses it's newer, shinier, competitors.
Anyway, if it's coming, I'm happy to hear it. I just wanted to toss a suggestion that might make it more workable.
Here we go again. Someone please link some info about the Sorcery Pool Power. I haven't heard anything about this. Sounds awesome though!Quote:Originally Posted by Xzero45This might be happening sooner than you think. We'll be getting the Sorcery power pool, and in it will have a travel power that's a hybrid of fly and teleport.
Fly and Teleport. Awesome enough for a couple sorcerer character respecs! -
Quote:Nah, it's called "Scareware" and tries to get your credit card info out of you, or in my case actually coerces you into buying a product to remove the virus it created, making it very 'grey' legally (the product removes the virus- prove we put it there). That's what happened to me recently. Fortunately, I had the wherewithall to immediately shut down my computer and take it into the shop without clicking anything (I have a warranty deal so I don't pay for any of that). Still had to completely re-install the basic system though.Originally Posted by Melancton
Now it all makes sense. I keep thinking of malware as just being a form of griefing... causing misery just to cause it. These folks are certainly upping the ante.
I don't even go anywhere 'dangerous' or 'weird', so I have no idea where I got it, but them's the breaks (pretty much here and a few other areas- Fine I'm boring, and don't have time for cruzing the intrawebs- I'm either here, in game playing or working on a AE arc, and then a couple other places I go all the time). They're getting smarter and more savvy about how they try and scam, and how they go about it.
Escalation! It's the name of the game. -
I'm making this a second post to cut down on wall of text and because it's a seperate train of thought.
Now that all AT's are available, perhaps the aggro management powers of Brutes should be revisited as well, to reflect this.
One of the biggest things that make Brutes as 'good as' Tanks with better damage is their aggro management capacity. They did not have this in the beginning. The Aggro manager for CoV was supposed to be Masterminds according to the Dev's. It turned out not to work that way, and the Brutes got boosts to their aggro management ability because of it.
Now I'm not saying remove it entirely. The need for aggro to generate fury is the core of Bruting now. However now that Tanks can easily start as one side or the other (and Brutes can too) perhaps how much aggro they can generate should be reconsidered.
I can say with experience how frustrating it can be on a WP Tank to lose aggro so easily. I really hope they fix that with WP and SR at some point. Their aggro aura is weaker, and can lose aggro to the right Scrappers and Blasters pretty easy. Even with Taunt it can be a bit of a fight to keep all the aggro you may need to sometimes (especially when you're 'showing off' your Tanking skills). Fix that and maybe even up a Tank's specific aggro cap vs. any other AT's.
Now taking that example of WP and SR above, what if Brutes got that level of aura generation across the board on their aura powers (not numbers, intensity is what I'm getting at here)? Maybe even weaken the Taunt power's effect just a touch (don't touch the single-target taunt they get from attacks- that's what keeps the Big Bad they're on away from their squishy friends) and then let's see how well a buffed Brute can outshine a Tanker. Apply a similar DeBuff to Scrapper aggro auras as well for the same reason (and they need it even less than Brutes).
Still good, still generates plenty of fury for them (I know I've soloed with low numbers and still generate fury nicely- don't need anywhere near a mob built for 8 to do it either) and with decent control and damage from a team would present more of a challenge, but not be unmanageable for that team (Fates knows I've managed to keep most of the aggro on a +3 x8 on my WP Tank).
Just food for thought. Changes like these won't kill a Brute in any way (and I LOVE Brutes too- Brutes and Tanks are my favorite AT's) but it can be frustrating when a Electric Melee/Shield Scrapper can steal my Tanker's aggro from him without trying hard (then die from it- it's happened more than once ). I'm sure it'd be even effective with a Brute. Just sayin'.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Leo_G
Are there other ways to emulate 'strength' and 'power' besides just damage numbers in a game like CoX?The 'not sure if serious' aside; This is a point I brought up waaaaaay long ago (before Paragon Studios was formed even) when a similar discussion came up, and it may not be as silly as you might think.Quote:Originally Posted by DarkSideLeagueKnockback distance?
I see Tankers as kind of melee versions of Controllers, rather than straight fighter types, and I think that's what the Dev's back then had in mind too.
Not only do they have aggro attracting/managing powers, note that a lot of the first melee sets that were Tanker specific had secondary effects to deal with aggro in general. Mace has disorient and knockdown, as does Stone. Axe has lots of knockdown, Energy Melee had a lot of stuns, Ice has slows. These weren't as prevalent, if at all, in the Scrapper melee sets. Maybe one knockdown, one knockback, or similar, but nothing else really (this isn't discussing any buff/debuffs in powers). Taunt was added shortly afterward so they wouldn't have to take a Pool Power to get it (and removed the immovability of most of the mez protection powers too, so there has been a LOT of progress since then, needless to say).
Recently their base attack got "Bruising", a -Resist DeBuff. I think something like this is more where they should go, instead of direct damage. Highlight the Tank as a melee team control/DeBuff and maybe even Buffer (like Shield Defense has, for example) as well.
Tanks should shine best in teams, but be strong solo, just to keep them competitive. In addition to focusing on those original characteristics (stuns, knockdown, slows, etc) in the powersets, why not give Gauntlet something like Defenders have in Vigilance? A damage boost that slowly decreases until you get 3 or more members in a team. That'll even out some solo performance issues without making them too overpowered for team play.
Or instead of trying to rebalance entire powersets around better 'secondary' effect chances/effects thereof, maybe allow a stacking 'brusing' to each attack instead of just the initial? That would up their damage solo, and provide a really nice benefit to teams. Especially those that are fighting big bad things that really could use a Tank to hold aggro on...
I think if anything productive is going to sway Dev response/action on this, we need to think outside the box a bit and give them an intriguing reason to consider.