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Posts
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Joined
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And a play-by-play to focus on each point and why I feel you're wrong.
Quote:It has been expressed over and over even by you that the concept of a 'Tanker' isn't defined and is hairy to pick particular examples from comics because comic characters do not translate to games very well...not MMOs or multiplayer ones, at least.I am against strengthening Tanker AoE capabilities. I don't think that fits with them conceptually.
Quote:Tankers are not bullies that choose to unleash their power on groups of peons and are inept at fighting tougher foes.
A Tanker isn't inept at fighting bosses unless a boss can outright kill a Tanker. Are you saying bosses kill Tankers easily?
Quote:If anything, they do the opposite in comics and other media: unleash their power on the hard targets and hold back against the mooks.
Quote:Indeed, the fact that Tankers shrug off mook attacks so well and can often ignore them is the reason they would put their attention and power into putting down the big threats.
Quote:I also don't like it because it only encourages farming, which is a big problem I see Tankers presently being abused for; players running them like Tractors, taking them back and forth across a farm, slow but steady and safe, usually to bankroll their Brute's IO build.
Also, mechanically, it works in a scale:
Stalkers = High melee overall, less AoE, bigger ST burst
Scrappers = High melee overall, medium AoE, medium burst
Brutes = Medium-High melee overall, medium-high AoE, lower burst
Tankers (could be)= Medium melee overall, high AoE, low ST burst
In the middle, Scraps and Brutes generally can do everything decently with decent survival. On the ends of the scale, Stalkers do really high dmg but cost AoE and Tankers could do medium dmg with a heavier lean on AoE.
Again, the point is ideas to improve Tanker's 'strength' value without needing to plain buff their damage numbers. My idea is aimed to people that want to actually tank with their attacks, not compete in DPS races with the other 5 damage ATs. You do not need to give Blasters less of a reason to be on the team. -
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Quote:Still ringing on my Gauntlet change. If that basically amounted to bigger AoEs, one would be able to affect more foes and thereby protect teammates better.Rather than make tanks more brute-like by increasing damage, would it be better to improve them by increasing their role as group protector?
I know we can't boost the resists or defenses beyond what they are, but what about adding more/better crowd control procs to their attacks? More stuns from the heavy hits, maybe the axe-wielding giant that just sliced into my teammate has an aoe fear effect, etc. Crowd control is, essentially, a form of aggro management, so would giving more melee crowd control make them more valuable?
Super Strength- Probably already well enough with Foot Stomp but just to hammer the nail in...might improve the stun chance in Hand ClapHand Clap
That Axe example- Improving the KD chances in these attacks too
Range: -
Radius: 15ft >> 25ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10 >> 16
Footstomp
Range: -
Radius: 15ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10 >> 16Whirling Axe
Dark Melee- Adding a chance of terrorize or -ToHit to these might be good. Maybe even lower the self buffs a bit in return.
Range: -
Radius: 8ft >> 15ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10
Cleave
Range: 10ft
Radius: 10ft
Degree: 19 degrees >> 60 degrees
Target Cap: 10
Pendulum
Range: 7ft >> 10ft
Radius: 7ft >> 10ft
Degree: 180 degrees
Target Cap: 5 >> 8Soul Drain
Martial Arts and Energy Melee- Improve the KD and Stun on their repsective AoE.
Range: -
Radius: 10ft >> 20ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10
Dark Consumption
Range: -
Radius: 8ft >> 15ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10 >> 16
Shadow Maul
Range: 7ft >> 15ft
Radius: 7ft >> 15ft
Degree: 45 degrees >> 90degrees
Target Cap: 5 >> 10Dragons Tail
Range: -
Radius: 8ft >> 15ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10 >> 16
Whirling Hands
Range: -
Radius: 8ft >> 20ft
Degree: -
Target Cap: 10 >> 18
Quote:the tanker soloing problem is that being tough only helps you solo if you can use AoE's to take down groups of foes.
This is where JB's complaint about effective survivability comes in. At the end of the day it does not matter if your defense is 10% or 90%, what matters is if you get defeated.
A scrapper has enough toughness for soloing. On the spreadsheet the have less survivability than tankers. On the scoreboard of times defeated soloing they have the same survivability as tankers.
Tankers need more toughness than scrappers because they take longer to defeat foes solo. They don't benefit from being tougher, they just can survive the extra time it takes to defeat foes.
Extra toughness helps if you can up the difficulty and benefit from that. If a tanker could go to x2 and take down twice as many minions just as fast, then they would benefit from being tough enough to take on twice as many foes. I only play tankers with a damage aura for that reason.
Some sets such as Mace once you get to 28+ and super strength at higher levels get good AoE. But for the most part a tanker just gets to let more foes pound on them while they pick them off one by one.
It sort of hits on several aspects of 'strength'...beating/hurting lots of foes, more likely and wider secondary effects, striking through/past enemies with your powers, and being at the center of it all. -
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Quote:It accomplishes equality. Why should threads I make be locked after 4 months of inactivity while a thread which was inactive for over twice that not be?Right, and I completely agree, though I was merely attempting to highlight the inanity of that comment; it accomplishes absolutely nothing.
It goes the same in real life; unfair things suck. If you think it's inane I speak against unfair things, then you can kiss my derriere
Quote:Investing emotions in old, dead threads does not, in any way, validate keeping them locked or unlocked because the fact that the threads fizzle out over time shows that said emotions are irrelevant. True investment would not allow the thread to die.
His has been inactive since *AUGUST*. It's now *MAY*.
Quote:You don't want your thread locked? Don't ignore it. But conversely, lobbying to close a thread that is actually facilitating discussion is pointless and rude. -
DarkSide and Lycan,
Glad someone is actually willing to look at the prospect. Disassociating damage with strength is very much needed here. Although I'd like J_B to answer the point straight too, otherwise it seems like he's got blinders on and his main motive is to out-do Brutes rather than help Tankers.
Power and effectiveness need not be linked directly to damage numbers. But how can be an interesting topic (moreso than a back and forth of 'who came first' and 'who shoulda got what', IMO). -
Drat...and no one would believe she's a non-combat pet either >_>
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Quote:So when people start getting all up in arms about their Brutes being all min/maxy and flames ensue, me bringing up "If you really want to min/max, you should be playing a dom" is still correct?
If you take all the insults out of this I see TBH saying his blaster can do x and Reppu saying a well played domi can do most of it better.
Because in such situations I've always said something like that....I feel it's better to just say that than to go all commando and whipping out numbers that I have no business swinging around.
It's good that I have always been right and Reppu just used numbers to prove that. See? She's like my little numberz-proof puppy pet that helps me be right all the time -
Quote:I thing both are a good means to an end. Regular epics, while are generic in the way you describe and are great because of them simply being there, they are also generic *looking*. We're far more inclined to get unique *looking* powers if those unique looking powers are linked to a specific power-type/enemy-group/named-character. On top of that, if there's a story involved as well, that's win-win. More powers, more unique looks, more content.While I have no problem with the suggestion per se, I really feel that more canon-specific power pools are the wrong way to go, since they restrict people into having to fit with a specific faction's narrative if they want a specific look or mechanic. Personally, I feel Epic Pools were the way to go, since those present generic powers that the player can subsequently explain away with his or her own fiction.
That is to say, it'd be more expectant to get the Carnival of Light-eque staff powers from a literal CoL patron pool than I would be for a simple 'Magic Staff' epic pool. Because epic pools are suppose to be generic and those powers aren't...and I'd like stories relating to the CoL that I could do to gain access to such powers.
Beyond all that though, I think I only have one character who treats his patron pool as a literal acquisition of resources. Just because the powers *say* you got them from Ghost Widow or Mako doesn't actually mean they handed you a 'Ghost Widow Utility Belt' and now you can use powers like hers...
-Nah, my Draconic Necromancer has always had breath attacks. He didn't gain them from Mako, but he did work with Mako to understand the might of Leviathan because its power was similar to his own.
-My Storm Sorceress gained knowledge of arcane and the power of souls *before* meeting with Ghost Widow. It's just only until then did she need to *use* that knowledge and power because of the foes she was dealing with.
-Meh, my shadow ninja does in fact use Black Scorpion as a sugar daddy. Since he uses more magic and natural fighting abilities, it's good to have someone like BS with steadily upgraded tech to balance him. He mainly uses the tech of the spider robots though. -
Quote:I was mainly pointing out that in relation to his build, though. He wants people to attack his build so he can defend it, but honestly there's nothing to defend. It's an AoE combo'ed with high survivability and one titular advantage (namely Drain Psyche's -regen). Not belittling anyone's hard work since I have *NO* characters built up to that degree and only *ONE* with full incarnate abilities (most of which are only tier 3). However one thing about his character, and this is important:lol Im not sure how to be constructive in here
I don't care about THB's bragging how awesome drain psyche is, because I also use it and agree that it is awesome. Looking down on anyone for not being able to afford multiple glad procs (his presumption anyway) is just pretty bad.
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT IT!
This isn't some mysterious holy grail that has been hidden within the recesses of the game only revealed until now when 2HB diligently researched and formulated a plan that created the be-all-end-all combo...No, it's just mixing AoE and mitigation. People have been doing that since Fire/Kin controllers. The only other reason to continue on with this lame thread is if he's trying to make another trend of min/maxed characters like Fire/Kin long before and SS/Fire brutes now. But the main difference is...those combos are effective *AND* simple. Simple to build, simple to play, simple to exploit. The same cannot be said about his combo...it may be simple to play but not to build and to exploit it fully, requires a close range PBAoE.
I see this with practically all his threads so I don't bother to comment about that. It's far more entertaining to poke at his premise of a babysitting service and how he feels his babysitting service should be treated any different from any other similar service. Lol, a faux-market? And when people use your market interface to get their powerlevel *now* and you can't because you're powerleveling others? What if I want powerlevels at my hours like Cag?
Lol if you can't realize you're running a *service* that demands to be treated as such, I'm inclined to believe you don't have a clue in *how* to run a service. Because, AFAICSATM, your service sux. Cag is waiting. -
Are there other ways to emulate 'strength' and 'power' besides just damage numbers in a game like CoX?
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Quote:And since I didn't really get caught up in it despite posting in the thread, I think I win....or you all lose...either way it's not pretty.Sure, that would be an option. It wouldn't be nearly as amusing to me though. I like it when people get this worked up over things that I say and do.
Quote:I never insulted anyone in this thread. -
I think Bleach and Cowboy Bebop should be replace with the Steve Blum Power Hour.
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I like a challenge?
I once wrestled a bear naked with my arms and legs tied and my mouth gagged.
I couldn't walk straight for 2 weeks. -
I don't believe you, Little_Whorn. Where's your 733t thread telling everyone how uber you are and how inferior everyone else is?
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Quote:Then blame IOs and buffs. Because Tankers are far more survivable than Scrappers on a pure numbers CoX-base basis. That and blame players who are so insistent on building a character to be so survivable and using the tools to make them more prominently unkillable.I doubt it's as straight forward and uniform as either multiplication or addition.
My point stands: Scrappers can and do get a considerable amount of survivability out of their secondary. I'm willing to wager their actual survivability isn't truly 75% that of Tankers, that across the board they don't faceplant 1.33 times more often than a Tanker does for all content in the game.
But then this goes onto speak of what the system is capable of and why I feel the point of my suggestion for Gauntlet can aid Tankers on many fronts over just a simple boost to their damage cap.
Because outside of Kinetic Melee and Super Strength, few tankers will get even close to their caps. Outside buffs and potential *should* be different among the ATs to make their build goals and powers feel unique.
Just saying, if Tanker's Gauntlet had the effect of faster and cheaper ST attacks + larger AoEs and higher target caps, they could also take better advantage of interface procs, IO procs and debuffs from teammates. Their ST goals will focus more heavily on accuracy and damage efficiency vs endurance/rech.
And their AoEs can be weighted on a per-set basis, boosting single AoE sets (Energy Melee, Martial Arts) by adding to all aspects of that AoE while boosting specific aspect of multi-AoE sets.
That, and it helps the AT in a wider spectrum. It may not boost Tanks vs ST itrial situations, but it's arguable that they *need* to be doing more damage in those situations.
In some itrials, I don't even bother engaging the main boss (except maybe lambda and keys) and instead go after all the extra mobs for more drops and xp. What does it matter to do an extra 22DPS against that one target in that single situation? Does that help all the other Tanks not doing itrials or always fighting AVs?
Quote:Well, then the argument really doesn't have much place when discussing Tanker balance, I should say. Mind you, I don't disagree with the argument, but if we both agree that it's not aimed at "fixing" tankers - and I agree with this - then we might as well just focus on Brutes and stop bringing Tankers into the mix.
Yes, I agree with a Brute resistance cap drop to 85%. To 80%, as a point of fact, but that's just me. And I do agree with a drop in the total damage buff cap for Brutes, but this has to be done carefully. The Brute damage cap was intentionally left higher to account for Fury, as I remember.
I could see dropping Brute's resist caps to the same as scrappers and maybe giving them Tanker mods for armors. I'd think an improvement to Tanker self heal mods would be a nice improvement. Blasters have lower control mods, I have no clue why...give them dominator control mods. I'd like to see Scraps get the same control chance/mods that Tanks get and Stalkers get improvements to debuff mods.
It doesn't really *help* much, but it's a 'nice thing' which is always good. -
2headedboy. Reppu.
....Get a room. Geeze. -
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Uh oh, I think the thread is taking a nosedive...
Tenzhi, do you have any more knees I can shoot? -