Leo_G

Well, firstly, if we're considering the Assault/B&A AT, this set-up won't be doing any tanking, that's a given considering it won't have any taunt auras or purely taunt. Not to mention, it's not one of the key roles you offered up as a possibility for this AT. That being said, yes, the armor sets only have 2-3 core powers that make up the set's 'Armor'. The other stuff is utility (and I count 'Oh Sh*t' buttons as utility they really shouldn't constitute the baseline performance of a set) Examples:

Energy Aura- 1. Kinetic Shield 2. Power Shield 3. Entropy Field. While the passives do help survivability, they are indeed skippable (my EA brute skipped one and there's only 1 available on stalker...and mine skipped it). Yes, Energy Drain has a heal...but considering it didn't always have one and EA characters still managed or that for the most part, the current players that use EA don't rely on ED as a heal anyway...it's basically just utility that helps you keep trucking along.

Electric Armor- 1. Charged Armor 2. Conductive Shield 3. Static Shield. Again, Energize wasn't always around and my Elec Brute managed to survive. Now it's a staple of the armor set, but it is not the core of the set.

Super Reflexes- 1. Focused Fighting 2. Focused Senses 3. Evasion. That is the lion's share of your mitigation. Honestly, if a defender was solo and had just those, there'd probably be nothing they couldn't solo. The rest, while it improves your survivability, is not a necessity for a non-tanking supportive damage dealer.

Regeneration- 1. Integration 2. Reconstruction 3. Dull Pain. On my Elec/Regen stalker that goes crazy AoE scrapping on teams, rarely ever uses the other stuff but it's there...kind of like a security blanket ready to use when the crap hits the skillet....kind of like a neat piece of utility one might say.

Fiery Aura- Prime example. 1. Fire Shield 2. Plasma Shield 3. Healing Flames. The rest aren't so much mitigation as they are utility...but mitigation through defeat is what that utility is.

There are examples of sets that need more than just 3 too(Stone Armor, Willpower, Invincibility) but my point still remains: How much of the armor set would this AT really need considering it doesn't even have to be in melee? You're basically cutting the fat from the armor sets and replacing it with gratuitous improvements without much penalty besides 'well, now you're not the tank'.

Not saying that's bad direction to take but personally, I still don't find it 'fair'. Not fair to Defenders/Corruptors because they don't get the same mez protection but much of their strategic advantage will be shared. And not fair to melees because they give up a lot of force multiplication and range for that armor.


That starts getting into 'What are people actually asking for?'. Do the posters responding now *want* to be arsed with tossing out debuffs to compensate for their anemic survival (bet you the Assault/B&A would be squishier than a Stalker who usually only give up 1 armor power for Hide and any buff auras...the proposed would be giving up 6!)? Are people Aiming for an Iron Man-esque character here? A true agile gun-fu master?

Besides finding out what the players are looking for, I still don't find ranged damage on an armored character as 'unbalanced'. As has already been said, look at the EATs.

But why have ranged on a fully armored character? Well, if there is some correlation to survivability and range, then you'd want to stay at range to survive easier than if you stayed in melee. But I'd probably put some mechanic in there to give such a character more offense if they are at ranged using those attacks and less when not at ranged with them. So, if you want to get more damage with ranged attacks, you need to be at ranged. No need to lower the damage as, once again, Assault Sets already come with less damage (no nova/tier 9s and another power taken out for a utility power) not to mention Tanker lvl melee for an AT with less melee attacks (only 4) wouldn't out dmg a tanker...unless the foes stayed at range.

Why pick this AT over a more offensive scrapper? To tank, of course. The only offensive edge the AT would get is, if it could keep the enemies at ranged it'd do more damage but only until the enemy closes in. Add a tanker to the team? The tank tanks for one tank and vise versa, both covering for the other without literally stepping on eachother's toes.


Don't see Tremor for Earth Assault (although that's an outlier example considering there is no blast set to pull attacks from). Don't see Ball Lightning, Thunderous Blast or Lightning Rod in Elec Assault. Don't see Explosive Blast, Nova or Energy Transfer in Energy Assault. Don't see Fire Ball (!), Rain of Fire, Inferno, Fire Sword Circle or Greater Fire Sword in Fiery Assault. Should I go on? It's not that the powers in the assault sets aren't good, but they aren't the most potent of the parent sets either. I don't believe I even said the Assault sets were 'light' (although I may have), but 'mild' sounds like a perfect descriptor.


Hmmm, that's not what you said here:


So either the support is limited in use, not providing much to compensate for the decreased offense and defense unless teamed. Or it's bolstering base survival, solo and teamed, as compensation for lower natural damage and defense.

Either way, you're looking at the same issue you claim an Assault/Armor AT would have, decreasing the level of performance for balance. IMO, I don't think that'd have to be the case for either but force multiplication is a tricky business...

And this is an argument I would now bring up *against* the idea. Personally, I find it a waste. On a dominatior, there's a reason to use ranged...because you *have* to use control first. That and it's filler until you *can* get close enough to melee. There's no 'allocating time for one role or the other', the role is rolled into one and the sets are tailored to help this.

Sounds powerful. Really, it depends what powers these mixed sets actually get. Most likely, it won't get the utility of Armor sets but I don't think it should get the premiere buffs of support sets either (no Fulcrum Shift, Adrenaline Boost, Melt Armor, etc) as that *would* be overpowered.

And in the superhero genre, if all a superhero faced was normal mooks, he really isn't a *super*hero, now is he?

TL;DR ver: The enemies are *not* normal.

Well, for the Armor sets, they pretty much are *just* 2-3 powers. Looking at sets like Energy Aura or Electric Armor, there's only 3 core defense powers with the rest being utility or filler/'you can skip this power' choices. IMO, I still don't think to mix so much onto 1 AT is right.

And that's why I believe an Assault/Armor AT would be just dandy. Overall, you're diluting the damage (Every assault set lacks the Nuke or tier 9 melee attack) and providing utility (again, assault sets have a spot for 2 utility powers in the form of a buff and a debuff/control.

Besides, spreading the focus of the AT so much either limits what role it will take (you're stuck as 2nd wing melee or support or damage, depends how the mods let it fly) or overpower it to 'do it all'.



Yeah, now link it with the melee set and you've got a reason to use those buffs/debuffs...because they're needed to keep you alive in melee.

Speaking of roles, the regular ATs usually have a 'base role' they can fill. I'd imagine an Assault/Armor AT could actually be an Armor/Assault AT and be more defensive. The Assault sets are already mild on damage, nothing extreme or bursty, so could be an alternative to a Tanker. Not as defensive but more aggressive.

A melee/buff&armor AT could basically be a 'sub-melee' that can do some spot support. Not nearly as supportive as a Defender/Corruptor but not as frustrating because you get mez protection.

Which is really the crux of the whole "I shouldn't miss!" argument. We're in a world with variables, physics and other stuff. Stuff *can* miss, super or not. Unless your super power is tying a hose on the enemy and feeding bullets directly to them, there is air, obstacles, *powers*, other bullets, etc that can interfere with your aim or projectiles as they travel.

There really is no guarantee except death...and even then, I'll just use Soul Transfer...

Only one of those can be used to stab. I think where Sam is coming from isn't that he's pissed off at a Stalker using an Axe, but that you apparently don't care if Stalkers look retarded stabbing with a pickaxe. The devs *do* care about how their game looks and it's awesome that its so important to them. Because that means we get awesome stuff like Ninja Run and Kinetic Melee and soon, more alternate animations.

Yes, the whole reason for the change was so that, when Electric Armor was ported to Tankers/Scrappers, they didn't have 2 powers named 'Conserve Power'.
This was to help balance the set as its mitigation levels weren't up to par, as well as give the power another use as a heal.
No, the power does the same thing, offer an endurance discount buff...that's all Conserve Power does. It just so happens the utility as a heal was added to Conserve Power to give us Energize.

I guess it depends how trivial you consider quality and consistency is. There are reasons the devs have yet to give us animated hair, backpack and polearms. They keep a standard for quality that they stand beside and if the devs consider using a mace weapon in a broadsword set to cross that line of consistency/quality, then that's just too bad for your fun.

Why not ask for speedier proliferation of these sets? I'd rather have a new set than a couple of weapon models I've seen before...

I actually agree. You shouldn't be forced to use the mechanics of the Battle Axe set just for the aesthetic use of the Axe. In all honesty, I feel the way the devs implemented weapons to begin with is all wrong. You should have been able to pick a weapon model and then choose what style the set had from there(so -def for your axe, or lots of KB for your broadsword or combos with your mace).

The problem though, is it's *not* implemented that way. We have an Axe set. We have a Broadsword set. We have a Mace set. If you want to use an Axe, you have to use the Axe set. Period. Giving the BS the Axe models give less a reason to play Axe (because now, if you want an axe, there's only one way). Yes that's a problem...but from a mechanics standpoint, not an aesthetic one. You can still have an axe now...you just have to play the axe set. You're provided with an axe, just not with the mechanics you want.

Oh, I agree with you, more customization is good...but only to expand the concept of a set. Doling out maces to use for your Dual Blades doesn't really expand on the concept of Dual Blades, though. And, honestly, not being able to use an Axe for your Broadsword just gives you more reason to play other sets...play more characters for concept, aesthetic AND mechanic reasons.

But yeah, I'd like more customization for the sets too...like, 2-handed warhammers for Mace (whenever they get 2-handed animations done) that has all the same powers, just 2-handed weapon models complete with animations...

Oh, I've always wanted a 'Knives' option for Spines. Why not Dual Blades? Because there's no DB powers where you throw them. My ninja stalker specializes in throwing weapons and Spines fits well...simply making it so spines didn't poke out of your skin would work too.

Or how about 'Hand claws'? You know, not claws that come out of the back of your hands but claws coming out of your nails. Again, it'd need new animations...but that's the type of stuff I'd like to see...not less reason to play more sets.

Alternatively, just roll another character with the same costume and similar name with different weapons. Because you're not going to be able to use any type of mace with a claw set, or an axe with a sword set or a sword with a mace set. The devs hold a higher quality for the animations in their game and that's one thing they won't allow. One advantage to just rolling another character is, you can choose with or without a shield.

But you're more likely to get an Epic AT with a 'Weapon Master' theme that basically lets you choose stances like Khelds choose forms with each stance having limited access to that particular weapon's set.

Alternatively, you could ask the devs for weapon models that could have some cross function (like the shovel)...so maybe ask for a 'mace with some pointy edges' for use with Axe/Mace or 'an axe-like sword' similar to the khopesh so that you don't have to roll a Mace, Axe, Sword, etc. character to complete your concept but maybe only 2 of the weapon sets.

That you tricked yourself into believing 'you must have x and therefore the game is obligated to provide it to you' is your own failing, not the game's. It's the same argument the 'Make Stamina inherent' posters make. Because a powerset doesn't provide endurance management while others do so they 'need' stamina is the basic reason for that suggestion and it too is flawed.

But honestly, you defeat your own argument. This thread seems to be about why Stalkers are 'bad' yet your issue is with Energy Melee and Martial Arts. How about go making a thread on how to improve those sets then?

Go get a Patron AoE and stop whining, then?

If you picked a powerset with no AoEs and you want AoEs, who's fault is that!?

The same can be said for any melee that doesn't focus on AoE.

So if ST would be less useful, then bring AoEs. Or do Stalkers not get AoEs? And can they not burst with them?

What will result in more damage on a steamroll team where the spawns last seconds: A BU + Thunderstrike? Or a BU + Thunderstrike crit from hide?

How about a Blinding Feint + Typhoon Edge vs a BU + 1kCuts crit?

*discards the rest because it's just insulting drivel*

Who honestly believes that? Especially when considering some steamroller teams where a mob is dropped in seconds. How important is sustained DPS vs burst when you've got a blaster hopped up on buffs flying at your heels or a SD Brute ready to drop SC at the drop of a hat?

If you're only counting 'burst damage' as AS and discarding the whole 'giving yourself 100%ST/50%AOE crits on command that you can combine with BU at will' part, then maybe. But Stalkers get AoEs. Stalkers can crit a lot of enemies with those AoEs and they can make sure those crits are backed by BU. That's something scrappers can't do and they have better burst damage than brutes.

You're lobbying for changes across the entire AT while discarding attributes the devs obviously considered advantages of the AT...when your real issue isn't even the AT but individual aspects of powersets. Taking a note from Angry_Citizen when he was here (one of the main guys that spoke out for the buffs Stalkers have now), the problem you want fixed is some kind of inferiority issue with the inherent concept of the AT compared to others yet you want to solve it with minor changes that will do little to nothing to solve anything...it'll just make you feel better. It's asking for change just because.

And no, Stalkers shouldn't be the 'kings of melee damage'. Merely competitive. You shouldn't have to pick a stealth assassin/ninja style if you want to do great melee damage.

I....don't....knooo-..ow...?

I'd say reread what I said again but then I'd just be blamed for 'lack of comprehension' or some crap.

What I meant said was:
"The point was, you bring up the melee ATs and DPS...acknowledge the advantage of stalker's burst and ST dmg and yet...DPS calculations are done with only one target in mind."

To clarify:
"The point was, you bring up melee ATs and DPS...acknowledge the advantage of stalker's burst damage AND single target damage..."

i.e. Stalkers have the advantage of burst (you can complain about needing to set it up but it's only a minor inconvenience since you're given absolute stealth at level one and a 'stop fighting me' auto-hit mez) and they are competitive in ST DPS.

I'm not a number cruncher so no, I don't. Much of the numbers came up when the devs were implementing the scaling crits. From those threads, without factoring in crits from hide/placate, a stalker *outpaced* a scrapper in ST DPS on large teams/with max crit rate bonus...only marginally but there you go.

Who said anything about conspiracies or even bias against stalkers? I simply said, people that want to SMASH don't want to hide. They'd rather press buttons and get their reward. If anything, I'm biased against stupidly simple playstyles and simple minded tactics. You won't hear me bad mouthing Dominators...and even though I don't like Masterminds, there's a since of respect for their complicated playstyle.

True, Stalkers give up things for burst, but your inferiority complex stems from comparing apples and oranges.

Elec melee is the lone exception? Okay, so it's the only primary that didn't loose damage. Great.

Now what about Dark Melee? What did it give up? A long recharging AoE that might as well not even be an attack at all? DM, compared across the melee ATs, it's tops when on Stalkers. It basically bolsters the set's burst damage (something the set naturally lags on) in exchange for decreasing its already abysmal AoE damage.

How about Dual Blades? It even drops a whole PBAoE attack! Well, the set still maintains *enough* AoE. You get 2 cones and a PBAoE dmg combo as well as focused DPS DoT combo and more burst (again, something said set falls behind on).


Really, it's like admitting there's something wrong with the game, rather than Stalkers. Because Stalkers aren't the only AT that uses ST or Burst damage. To say it gains little in comparison to other similar attributes is tells us "The AI needs to be fixed or something".

....

Eh, I'll leave it at that. I'm tired of quoting. Anyway, there's nothing *wrong* with Stalkers, inherently. They have powersets that focus on ST and powersets that expand into AoE just like every other melee AT. Just because they tend to narrow their focus a bit compared doesn't make it good or bad. It's up to the player to decide if that's a direction in which they want to go.

Their survivability is fine, as on teams, they're like Scrappers with anti-aggro auras. A Scrapper that isn't tanking doesn't need 100% of the mitigation they get anyway and solo, if using the proper settings, most of the enemies will simply fall over dead before they can scratch at you.

Could the AT use some tweeking? Yeah, sure. Lots of stuff could. But I don't think they need to give them *more* damage...because it's a never ending cycle. Then Scrappers will complain or the buff won't be enough 'cause my claws brute can still do blahblahblah DPS which is blah% blah than blah'.

Give stalkers more debuffs. Won't make them 133t but it'd be cool!

The point was, you bring up the melee ATs and DPS...acknowledge the advantage of stalker's burst and ST dmg and yet...DPS calculations are done with only one target in mind.

Basically, it's contradicting yourself harping on about some sort of disparity yet state the fact that a Stalker has no problem pumping out the DPS.



Then look in more places than that. If they aren't talking about Stalkers what makes you think they'll bother making the calculations for them?

It's not that Stalkers *can't* it's just Stalkers do it in a fashion that Scrapperlock/BRUTE SMASH addicts don't care for.


What is 'Burst DPS'? Is that like DPA or DPE? Now we've got multiple versions of DPx? As far as I know, 'Damage Per Second' is always sustained. By it's very nature, it averages out any type of possible bursts capable by a powerset (i.e. averaging out crits and BU over time rather than how it dynamically affects enemies).

Stalkers may not overshadow brutes or scrappers in DPS(considering said DPS is narrowed to ST), but they are competitive. If Stalkers had better DPS and burst damage, why invite a Scrapper or Brute at all?


Because, even on my Brute or Scrapper, I'm not in some self-imposed ego-trip that dictates I must be better than everything or everyone. If the team is already steamrolling, it wouldn't matter if I was there, I disappeared or if they added another dom or brute or whatever. They'll still be steamrolling. Period. That they'd be steamrolling 3.9 seconds faster if it was a Brute is only relevant to the elitist.

Now if the team *isn't* steamrolling, most likely I as a Stalker can make battles go somewhat smoother. Would it be better to get a corruptor? Or a Dom? Depends. What if there is enough control (more control doesn't make things magically easier)? Or enemy mezzers taking out the corruptors? Or retarded debuffs being thrown out? I can take care of that as a Stalker while pumping out good damage. If I have to sacrifice max DPS to focus my attention on destroying foes that hinder the team, so be it.

Funny that, DPS chains are often *SINGLE TARGET*!

That I've seen people post numbers that pretty much equate to 'Stalkers and Scrappers are about even' and that those numbers don't take into account the free crits (probably can't as it's not something easily quantifiable) must also be a myth.

Stalkers have DPS ontop of burst damage, you just fail to acknowledge it because...well, if you don't play Stalkers, you're not going to bother, right?

The funny thing is, on some Stalkers I actually *do* that. Granted, some of my more ballistic Stalkers, I'm right in there dropping crits and taking alphas, but on certain stalkers, it pays to strike strategically rather than hectically. Why? Well, why not? When I play, it's not like I'm trying to prove my epeen is bigger or I'm badder than everyone else...I *know* I'm deadly.

Let the Brute get the messy and I'll dissect intelligently. Not running or hiding or waiting, just pick and choose, execute and move on. And guess what? I actually get *rewarded* for doing that! I get free crits, I get damn near absolute mitigation and the team runs smoother.