Leo_G

PvP is one of the reasons, yes. No, I'm not a PvPer but then I'm not going to take the selfish route and lobby for changes that will practically **** someone else's part of the game just for one insey-wittle second shaved off of AS that no one will ever notice.

Want another reason why? Because any skill needed left to perform adequately on your Stalker is practically stomped into the mud. Shaving off practically all of AS's cast time, making it uninterruptible and auto-hit dumbs down my Stalker game even more than the random crits dumbed down 'scrapping' for you. I'd much prefer needing to actually practice the skill than it just being another click.

Honestly, the reason I'm even still talking is because I enjoy the style balance we have. If we're somehow lacking compared to the other melees, I'd much prefer adjusting the AT in an alternate direction, ramping up the AT's utility and team contributions in buffs/debuffs and perhaps add new advantageous tactical maneuvers, not just ramp up DPS. If you think about it, the reason Brutes were brought down a tad and Tanker's mitigation upped a tad was because the 3 standard melees were just so close (and they still are pretty close). I've no doubt, if Stalkers were getting their damage upped, you'll may see Brutes and/or Scrappers adjusted down as well...and I wouldn't want to see that 'cause I'm a player of more ATs than just Stalkers.

And you've got largely yourself to blame. Most of your unrest with my post in particular was the rant I *specifically said* wasn't directed at anyone in this thread and even complained about a point that *you* never even backed. And I keep forcing myself to not bother responding to every point for my *and your* sake. If I can do that, so can you.

And the reason why I bring up extremes is because extremes have been used to back the argument to change stalkers for practically the whole thread. "I can't get off AS before it's overkill", "Its too situational" and "AS in a team environment is flawed" are circular extreme arguments used to strengthen eachother when alone, each can and has been addressed.

Ah, and if they ever do speed up AS, it'll probably only be by 1 and a fraction of a second. It'll still be interruptible if you don't time it right after you stop running, it will still not land before those 7 other blasters drop their nukes, it will still do nothing to help team contributions any more than adjusting tactics. The only way you're really going to even notice a difference is if they shave off 2 or more seconds and honestly, I can't get behind AS being that fast...

Stalkers still have a 20% chance to crit held or slept foes in PvP. But honestly, a 20% chance to crit a slept foe was and is practically useless.

No....how the heck do you get that as the reason Stalkers got Demoralize?!?

No, Demoralize was added to Assassin's Strike for the very reason you guys are rallying for change: It was a boon to team play. It was either Demoralize or Scaling AS which let Stalkers solo GMs easily.

Where I'm keeling over is, you guys are practically complaining that Stalkers get nothing on teams when they do, provide nothing on a team when they can, struggle with their use and yet do not attempt to revise your strategy and instead seem to seek out situations and teams where any extra teammate is not needed.


If you think Stalkers get crap AoE now, any AoEs they'll get or ever get would be horribly nerfed if Stalkers simply controlled their crits all the time (either that, or we'll hear complaints how much more tedious and slow Stalkers are because, to get any benefit from them you'd have to pick around their mechanics even more to get good effect).

People complained not only that Stalkers were defensively and offensively weak, but that they were clunky and difficult to use. The random criticals was to make them offensively stronger and easier to use.

And it's not like 'frikken random damage' replaced the control Stalkers got. It was *ADDED*. So any complaints about adding Scrapper's inherent to Stalkers is looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Just to clarify, Stalker's source of controlled burst comes from Hide and Placate. The 'control' to 'burst' is tied into those powers, not AS. Shortening AS's animation won't suddenly make your burst damage stronger or more controlled without the use of Placate or waiting for Hide. It'll increase your DPS, yes, but that's not what you're complaining about, is it?

I told you my rant wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. My main complaint is that, apparently, fighting in melee without constantly resorting to AS makes us 'weak Scrappers'. I've heard it all before, not just here or not even by you. If you want to take it as me regarding you as a NERDRAGE'er, that's your prerogative. A stalker is a stalker and what makes it different from other melees is its priorities and approach.

As for what I think would help Stalkers, go look at the 'So...Stalkers' thread. The last few pages, I made a post stating the direction I think Stalkers could go. Granted, I hadn't put numbers and weeks of planning behind them, I don't think Stalkers need a huge overhaul. But sinking *more* resources into making AS *the* trick pony of Stalkers rather than *one* tactic among many is painting Stalkers into a corner that you're apparently not seeing yourself do. Heck, the main complaint about Stalkers is how it relies so heavily on ST damage...and yet, that's your solution...make it do ST damage more.

Is that honestly where we're left to?

See "team aid"...

It'd be like if Scrappers PBAoE buffed the teams ToHit every time they hit BU or Follow up. It's a power that Scrappers already try and capitalize on and if it just so happened to have a buff for allies wrapped into it, that's equivalent to what Demoralize is. But Scrappers don't get team aid at all.

Yes, a Scrapper could put good use in a team aid power in all those 'Scrapper-lock' situations where he just keeps fighting but his allies already bit the dust.

Yes, demoralize is situational...about as situational as an Alpha strike can be.

Okay then. I'll put it in the form of a rant. This isn't directed at you or anyone in the thread.

/rant

What are Scrappers generally known for? Dealing high damage in melee range and not dying. That's pretty much it. Across the powers of its sets, a Scrapper doesn't control, or buff or debuff or tank...He just does what he does with any of those other effects occurring by accident.

But that doesn't mean Scrappers have a goddamned monopoly on hitting things in melee range! Sure, by definition, scrapping is fighting (which in the naturally done close up) and you can say a Brute scraps and a Tanker (Scranker) scraps and a Dominator scraps and a Blaster (Blapper) scraps, but the act of fighting in melee range IS NOT THE SOLE DAMN DOMAIN OF SCRAPPERS!

Stalkers. You've got Assassin's Strike. Great! Now use the rest of your damned primary. Seriously. Just because you've got *ONE* signature single target attack does not derive the bulk of your strategy. The devs gave you a *MELEE SET*....to attack things! IN MELEE! They didn't give you 'Assassin's Strike Melee'! You've got 6 other attacks, god damnit! Use them! And no! Using melee attacks in melee range before, after or in place of AS does not make you a god damned Scrapper! If it did, the devs *would* have just filled your primary with melee snipes...but they didn't.

As for all this BS about AS being too slow? Alright, I can see where you're coming from and the cast of placate could be reduced/removed for ease of use, but COME ON! You can't use AS before the enemy's dead or before it's overkill!?

HA!

I've stolen kills from under Blasters and Scrappers noses with Placate > AS! If I can do that, you should be able to not suck! Even if timing, lag or kill speed is an issue, you should still be able to get off AS at the start!

When all the bosses, Lts and annoying targets in a spawn are dead with only some scattered minions left, I'm already aiming to jump into the next spawn. Just 2 extra seconds for Hide to come back and I'm already swimming in the group, my target chosen and I'm sitting next to the guy with my finger on the AS button. The instant I see the Brute turn the corner, AS is going. Before he's even hit his first foe, AS has already landed and I'm popping Reconstruction or an inspiration to shave off any extra damage Demoralize let slip through. By the time the rest of the group catches up, I've already defeated *my* target and moving on to the next one.

Although I rarely play in the 45-50 lvls (mainly because its slower progress and the stories aren't much better), I do play in the 35-45 lvls almost exclusively and I have to say, I cannot remember being on a team where the enemies dropped too fast to do my thing or I wasn't able to circumvent that with the above tactic. If it ever did happen in the years I've been playing, it was so rare and only the span of 1 easy mission, that it was easily forgotten.

I honestly don't know *WHAT* kind of assassin's these people are trying to be...expecting the enemies to just fall on their swords/fists. Or hitting and running outside of soloing annoying targets (2 Daemon Lords to deal with is annoying)...I honestly am fed up with the whole argument. This isn't a 'lrn 2 ply' post, this is an 'If you're going to complain about something, complain about something that matters!' post.

/rant

You're under a horrible misconception about the function of the AT, it seems.

It's more than what a Scrapper gets, which is nothing. For team aid, Scrappers often consider such a thing a detriment to their role. For a Stalker? You get it wrapped into a power you're already trying to use. Brushing it aside as if it's a non-issue (especially considering the debuff capacity vs the foes that resist -ToHit) is underestimating it.

You know, saying this over and over doesn't make it any more true.

The idea is, if the speed the enemies drop is too so fast then a Stalker 'taking the alpha' is pretty easy considering part of the group will be feared, they'll all have their ToHit debuffed and if you're a melee worth your salt on a team, you should have *something* (reconstruction, Dark Regeneration, Energize, good defense to stack with the -ToHit, etc) to at least give you enough time to retreat after the initial attack. Ideally, demoralize and your own mitigation should be enough to stave off the alpha and keep scrapping.

Now keep this in mind. Burst is a tactic. It comes with its own advantages and dangers. Just like a Blaster using Aim+BU then wailing on a boss will more likely than not peel off aggro from that tank, you can use your Stalker to AS to break the alpha to aid your team, get in your burst and take out the nasty targets faster.

Stalkers were not designed to rely on AS as a crutch. Never. They *are* 'Scrappers' meant for the dps role. And when I say 'Scrappers' I mean generalized melee damage dealer because that's all a Scrapper is...melee damage per second. Honestly, Brutes are in the same role...they just have a few tools to do tanking too.


Scrappers, Tankers or Brutes do not have psionic damage. They do (including Stalkers) get pure energy damage (Jacob's Ladder for example), and Stalkers will get Fire melee so it's a moot point bringing that up...What you didn't bring up is ice damage which is far less resisted than those other types and only Tankers get that.


Considering lots of AoEs don't have the fastest cast time (Fireball probably being the fastest at 1sec) and not counting Aim/BU (that's 2.3sec right there) a standard volley of AoEs from a single player is around:
-Archery = Fistful of Arrows(1.17sec) + Explosive Arrow(1.83sec) = 3sec
-Assault Rifle = Buckshot(0.9sec), M30(1.67sec), Flamethrower(2.33sec) = 2.57sec to 4.9sec
-Energy Blast = Torrent(1.07sec) + Explosive(1.67sec) = 2.74sec
-Fire Blast = Fireball(1sec), Fire Breath(2.67sec), Rain of Fire(2.03sec) = 3.67sec to 5.7sec

Basically, yeah, those AoE attacks are *not* instantaneous. Nor do they always connect with every target nor are all enemies always in range of them. This can require repositioning to get closer for cones, angling to get the most from the effect, etc.

And just to be clear, a snipe will not outdamage AS from hide. Not even a BU+snipe.

As it should be. Concentrated fire from 3-4 allies *should* outdamage the attack of *one* Stalker. This is in lighthearted jest when I say this but...what have you been smoking to think 1 stalker needs to do more damage than 2, 3 or even 4 other players *combined!?


I'm confused. Scrappers are melee damage dealers. Stalkers are melee damage dealers. Where we're right back to is where we're suppose to be.


Situational awareness. The enemies aren't auto-hoarded for quick slaughter nor do they always stay that way. Not to mention, since the enemy cannot see you, you can wade into a group, look what's there, figure out what needs to drop first then initiate combat on your terms with a target gone at the start.



Shall I explain the tactical edge Stalkers get? But the things listed (BU, Placate, AS and Hide) can be used in varying combinations depending the situation.

Then there are quirks and tricks you can learn through toying with the tools like how you can hop at the last part of the AS animation without interrupting the attack, that if you're not aggroed to anything while a foe is placated (because everything else is dead) the enemy still won't aggro, that you can time the activation of AS so that it connects just as hide unsuppresses, and other various set specific tricks...There's other stuff too but it can all be used to great effect solo or teamed.

Really, it's a lot more than I can say a Scrapper can get besides pressing buttons and using KB...



I can agree that Stalkers could get some advantage points raised here or there but honestly, I'm always going to argue against players that shortchange the AT just because it's not their cup of tea or making over generalized complaints like AS isn't useful because everything dies too fast.

I think your problem lies in the definition of 'Burst Damage'. It's not solely a set feature. It's a tactic.

If you can't get your AS in before everything hits the fan, then Move. Faster. Why do you even have stealth at all if you're not going to use the situational awareness it can provide before a battle starts?

That said, just because you can burst doesn't mean that's all that matters. It's all a gamble, really. Putting all your eggs in one basket to hit the enemy hard before retaliation. Blasters do it with BU+Aim+nuke, (de)buffers do it by piling on the force multipliers before laying the smack down. All of it takes time and sacrifice. But you don't have to. A Blaster can stagger their BU and Aim use to keep more consistent damaging AoEs, and Stalkers can use their free crit on a quicker high-powered attack instead.

It's not about being sub-par, it's about dealing with the situation. It's your choice if you'd rather view holding off AS as relegating yourself as a weaker scrapper, I'll consider it a pocket nuke for when a target isn't/won't go down. But if my tactic focuses on abusing AS, I'll simply build the character and adjust the tactics to the situation to use it better.

I actually have 2 characters that do this: EM/EA stalker. In the mid lvl 30s, he's softcapped to smash/lethal/energy/neg/fire/cold (only some cheap stun IO sets and Rectified Reticle) with slotted Energy Drain to heal him. He's the 1st guy in a spawn and takes alphas.

My DM/WP isn't as sturdy but with his power make-up, if he's killed, he can self-rez and have BU lvl dmg buff for 90sec. Whatever he'll hit will feel it if it's AS or no. Hit BU and AS? Oh boy...

And the ATs we need to compare to share (and will share) the same offensive sets. So the argument is pretty moot considering those other ATs don't get armor like you do.


You're generalizing a lot. Like I said, even if they have equal acces to ST and AOE dmg, their time is still divided. Unless there are AoEs that have higher damage than a focused ST attack we have access to, there will always be a reason to use both AoE and ST but you cannot use both within the same activation time (perhaps exception being pet classes). So if the other guys are spending 3-4sec of activation to pop their high powered AoEs, how can you not have already started your AS on the sturdy target?

And no, having an extremely coordinated team would probably put a vice on the Stalker's role of taking out his targets (i.e. you have to do it faster). It's on uncoordinated teams where it's easier to do your thing. Foes aren't magically within 15ft of each other, people aren't focusing their fire on particularly annoying foes, everyone's not meta-game levels of power, etc. I'd say that's more likely to happen than your ultra-coordinated team.


Eh, I think you're starting to project a stereotype on the role of a Stalker, now. Does your view of how the AT should function line up with everyone else's? As is, all I see a Stalker as is a type of melee who is not punished for stopping to think/calculate but instead rewarded. By contrast, the other melees are probably punished for stopping to think or staying on the fringe of combat.

What you do with that is up to the player. You don't have to use every tool available to function properly or 'as intended', you don't have to strap yourself to a style or mechanic to win, you're flexible. Not as flexible as a Scrapper but close. In exchange for the survivability edge they have, you gain a tactical one.

Then explain why every melee set the Stalker has, every other melee has yet it not being their issue? If an issue covers multiple ATs, multiple sets and set types (could easily argue that since Energy Blast is all split between energy and smashing the same as Energy Melee, that the set suffer too, or Archery for that matter and Psi is often more heavily resisted than any of the other elemental sets), then it fails to be an AT problem and becomes a mechanics problem.

*see case when foes drop too fast*

Look! There's another option!

This is contradictory, IMO. For the case of bosses falling too quickly to get off an AS, then don't. While it's a signature move of the Stalker, the AT isn't built around *needing* to use it to fulfill its role effectively which is a *good* thing. AS is a great extra omph available with the sacrifice of an AoE and the time to invest setting it up but you have other options.

For the case of bosses falling too slowly is the real conflict of argument. If you're on a team where the bosses will be resisting damage heavily, then all those AoEs will practically do nothing to those hard targets since the damage is spread and such an AoE focused team will have to invest END and animation time using ST attacks to handle those foes. This means:
A. There will be other targets to take out if the team has to turn focus on a single target.
B. There will be a boss to fight if they turn their focus on everything else except that single target.
C. Single Target focused builds, no matter if their damage is resisted or not, have either better burst (EM) or extreme DPS (MA) so those hard resistant targets still go down faster than an AoE build focusing on the hard target.

If your issue is that AS doesn't remove those hard targets quickly enough because they resist your attacks, that's an issue with damage type and enemy resists, not the Stalker AT.

That portion about the 'big sword mentality' so it would increase your endurance consumption would discourage spamming the attack too much. Alternatively, a strong layered debuff to lethal damage (strongest after application then tapers off after a time maybe 15-20sec) to simulate smacking something so hard, you run the danger of breaking your sword. Spam it, and you're basically going to be fighting with a big butterknife.

Well, you kind of forgot Repulse (perfectly reasonable mistake). So Stalkers might be shy some resistance but it gets soft control via KB which can be a big help if used right.

Actually, with the new changes to mez toggles, Repulse sounds like a totally fun power! Think about it: you turn on Repulse, then you charge up your AS or high powered ST attack then queue that baby up and *BLAM*. It'd almost make it seem like your attack is just that dang good

I haven't really got any type of build for my EM/EA stalker who is sitting at lvl 34 so I'm definitely thinking of working that power in if only for L0Lz

Hmm, what about Whirlwind?... >_>

And when did I say tossing the lore in the trash was a legitimate option that should be pandered to?

I always thought that Stalkers had higher defense than Scrappers/Brutes for their respective sets when you factor in suppressed Hide...it'd only be a measily 1.8% but it was there.

As for the believed discrepancy, it's as explained: Brutes get the +def shields and Energy Cloak which provides a constant amount of +def (about as much as Weave I think).

Stalkers get the +def shields and Hide which does not provide a constant amount of +def. Each set for Stalkers/Brutes/Scrappers are suppose to provide the same amount of mitigation with the difference being the caps and HP.

Brutes are not entitled to more defense. It isn't in their inherent to get more mitigation. Stalkers *are* entitled to more defense because it's in every one of their tier 1 powers which is tied to their inherent.

Wasn't a strawman since I'm not refuting anything, simply bringing to light the activity of either side, i.e. we're all pretending here. But apparently your pretending is suppose to take precedence.

Now if you're going to come back and say 'of course disregarding the lore won't take precedence over respecting the lore', then that's kind of a strawman since no one really ever said that.

But you have said that you don't like the particular pretenders that don't fit your narrow ideals, out of spite it would seem.