Kruunch

Meh I'm staying here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
G_Tanker: That's against the average PUG that groups with us ... numbers wise however I can never match the DPS output of a Scrapper (or Blaster). Player wise, I tend to be a little more focused then the average PUG apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, glad to see my skepticism in that thread was justified then. Still, I would not be surprised if shields/dm could outdamage some scrapper combos even after IO's - say, take on a spines/sr at single target damage, I think you'd win. Fire/fire/pyre certainly outdamages some scrapper combos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends your idea of "outdamage". If you're going to hold up an all AOE build Tankers (Fire/Fire/Pyre) against a ST Scrapper then yeah, in raw numbers it outdamages the Scrapper.

But just by comparing extremes you kind of make my point ... I can build any Scrapper to effectively group tank, and many Scrapper builds to replace a Tanker entirely in virtually any scenario. Currently my Spines/Fire Scrapper (probably the weakest defensively) tanks my L52 boss mission just fine.

ED, GDN and the agro cap normalized the roles of Scrappers and Tankers for awhile. IO sets and positional defense have returned Scrappers nearly back to what they once were. The same can't be said for Tankers.

*EDIT* Mind you I like where Scrappers are. Tankers just need to fill a larger role again imo.

[ QUOTE ]
I see this alot from Scrappers. My best advice?, make a regen or WP scrap, or use end redux's. Stam is pretty nice to have, but its only pivotal for Tanks and DA users.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 4 Scrappers including a Regen and a WP ... they all have Stamina and use every inch of it.

Good job Ace.

I like the Earth Assault alternate animations (always hated the mallets).

[ QUOTE ]
And let's face it, you just aren't going to get that much accuracy out of TO or DO enhancements, even if you actually buy enhancements at those levels. I never buy TOs; it seems better to save the inf and just go with what drops.

And acting alone, my 12-21 characters could not consistently afford DOs, IOs, or their initial SOs either. Most of mine get by now by being twinked by high levels, who make lowbie IOs in search of badges, and dump the high level SOs they get from regular play into a bin of IOs that can be sold whenever a character runs short of inf.

That isn't an option for everyone, and especially isn't going to be an option for a new player. The endurance mechanic hits hardest on low level characters played by people new to the game, and it seems to me that would be a marketing problem.

And, in the scenarios mentioned, you have to go after the Sorcerer first: nothing else is going to be defeated until the Sorcerer is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in essence although disagree about the pricing. The first few characters I levelled could afford their TOs and DOs (although sometimes I'd have to go out of my way to farm for them back in the day).

With the addition of sellable salvage and recipes, affordability of TOs and DOs (or converted SOs with my suggestion) shouldn't be an issue.

[ QUOTE ]
Tackling the Tanker<->Scrapper and 2TankerRequired2Pug sidepoints;


Kruunch;

[ QUOTE ]
True, but I'm not seeing Tanker stackability as the issue you are. However I do see an issue with Scrappers encroaching on our territory but not vica versa. You can make a Scranker, but it will never be a Scrapper. However the reverse cannot be said. I can (and have) made Scrappers that can totally replace a tank in all circumstances. The largest reason being that as a Scrapper, I can achieve defenses/mitigation good enough to withstand the agro cap. Without the agro cap (and I think it should be removed entirely for all ATs) then a Scrapper can only be taken so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... that's kind of odd given just a thread over you wrote: Here's my L50 SD/DM Tanker build (per request). He was main tanking AE Boss farms (go go gnomes) in his 30s and was out performing Scrappers/Blasters (by and large) in DPS by his 40s.............Finally, I'm comparing the damage (subjectively of course) to the Scrappers I play with (of various makes and models) and my own Scrappers. This build doesn't out damage *every* Scrapper combo (of course) and really shouldn't out damage a really well built Scrapper, however more times then not (and especially against more single target oriented Scrappers) I pull away from Scrappers over the course of most boss fights.

FWIW, I can certainly think of tanker builds that are more damaging than various scrapper builds in various situations -- for instance, I was rather cheesed in the RCS farming days that my friend's fire/fire/pyre tanker (IO'd to the gills) was outfarming my broadsword/dark build (IO'd to the gills) -- but Rikti bosses have heavy lethal resist and no fire resist. If you compare apples to apples (or as close as you can), the proper AT always wins. But yes, scrankers can replace scrappers. As far as a your scrappers being truly superior to tankers "in all circumstances" ... my eyebrow's at the ceiling aboot now. That's a big generalization to throw out there.

It's mostly a social construct that people don't advertise damage spec'd tanks as damage dealers - the same way people pigeonhole emps as 'healers'. I have definitely invited a tank to a team purely to do damage (fire/ss) ... amusingly he thought, as the only tank on the team, he was supposed to tank, but he wised up pretty quickly.

Anyhoo. I don't think changing the agro cap upward is a solution (if anything I might recommend having the other 4 AT's go down to 12 - I don't disagree with the notion that only tanks should be able to hold highest number's attention, but I wince at upping it more than 17 given how much agro I can already manage on my fire melee tankers), but then again I was one of the people shortly after launch going, "Oh man. This is massively broken. It is getting nerfed so hard." about herding a map at a time. Took a while, but it happened.

Nihilii;

[ QUOTE ]
If anything, I'd argue 2 tankers is almost a necessity in some teams (nothing is necessary obviously, but if your teammates die every few minutes then they'll get bored and leave). Take a PuG running an AE lieut/boss mission set for 8 for example, if you aggro 2 groups at once some squishies are guaranteed to die. You could say "pull one group, don't aggro two groups at once" but that'd slow down the team. You could say "if squishies were really good they wouldn't die", but we're talking about a PuG and most people just aren't that good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree insofar as yes, AE definitely makes 2+ tanker teams more desirable than ever before (at least post-agro cap:17 change). I disagree with the rest of your statement based on my experiences. Since AE came out I've run five characters to 50 purely leading or playing in pugs, and at no time were tanks required at all, let alone two of them. I can think of several memorable pugs that had no melee whatsoever where I was actively pulling 3 groups of 53-54 bosses at a time. Furthermore I find it rather odd the notion that a second group will wipe a team... support chars besides tankers can handle a spawn's agro (in a variety of ways) on their own, depending on level disparity and powerset. I do know you're talking about PUGs, but I've spent the last 2 or so months playing PUGs quite a lot in the leveling game.

[/ QUOTE ]

G_Tanker: That's against the average PUG that groups with us ... numbers wise however I can never match the DPS output of a Scrapper (or Blaster). Player wise, I tend to be a little more focused then the average PUG apparently.

[ QUOTE ]
I am working on a build that will give me perma hasten at the expense of taunt. Can I still main tank without it? Can I tank AV's without taunt?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it every night on my SD/DM Tanker.

[ QUOTE ]

Kruunch: I did think of that (raising the cap for just Tankers), but the problem that creates is it makes Tanker overlap even worse. Right now, if more than 17 mobs are pulled, a second Tanker can grab the extra mobs. If the aggro cap was raised to 25 (for example), taht would mean it would take 25 mobs before the second Tanker is useful again. That's the opposite direction I was aiming for.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I'm not seeing Tanker stackability as the issue you are. However I do see an issue with Scrappers encroaching on our territory but not vica versa. You can make a Scranker, but it will never be a Scrapper. However the reverse cannot be said. I can (and have) made Scrappers that can totally replace a tank in all circumstances. The largest reason being that as a Scrapper, I can achieve defenses/mitigation good enough to withstand the agro cap. Without the agro cap (and I think it should be removed entirely for all ATs) then a Scrapper can only be taken so far.

To me, this is the biggest issue Tankers have more then anything else mentioned (early level end issues being game wide imo).

P.S. - Yeah SoM makes a huge difference in early conventional levelling. Take a toon from 1-10 doing regular missions and not using a vet reward.

Ya know I find it ironic that I got mod slapped for "trolling" J_B when he is easily the best troll on these forums.

/salute

/agree

[ QUOTE ]
Rage = +80%, AAO (max with 10 targets) = +65%, Assault = +10%, Enhancements (roughly) = +95%

For a grand total of +250%

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you Kruunch, and I hope that you take this in a constructive manner. That being said, every single time I read one of your posts where you talk about numbers, your numbers are always wrong. If you're going to try to give people advice, please make the effort to know what you're talking about before you post.

There are already enough wrong beliefs in game. Please don't add to them by giving people yet more wrong information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many SS Tankers (especially those that are worried about damage) run double stacked Rage (putting you well over the damage cap when combined with AAO). They also run Hasten, which makes for a very endurance hungry build. Adding an additional high end toggle that will only benefit your team mates and hurt your own build is counter productive.

My numbers may be off from time to time, but my advice rarely is.

Ok ... then it takes that much longer to defeat the Sorcerer.

The point Heraclea was trying to make was that pre-Stamina Tankers are ill equipped for prolonged fights and often these fights are prolonged due to accuracy issues coupled with endurance issues which still abound in those early levels.

Now you can make this arguement across all ATs (or most of them) which I would agree with. Hence a change that effects all ATs at these early levels.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...=0#Post1295041

Damage cap for all players is +300% I believe.

Had another thought ...

One of the main issues I see with higher level Tankers today is that they cannot ever close the gap damage wise with Scrappers (as it should be imo) but a Scrapper can become as tough as a Tanker with respect to what we can physically tank ... i.e the agro cap.

Lift the agro cap (but not the target limits per power). Give Tankers the ability to once again push their defenses to the maximum.

I think with the advent of the AE missions and the upcoming I16 changes (e.g. set your own level and group variance while solo) that archaic prejudices such as "herding" are and should be, a thing of the past. This is the one area where Tankers could outshine any other AT (and incidentally, this also side swipes the Tanker stackability issue).

Let them have it back.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have that problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dropping the mission isn't an elegant option

No.

With AAO and Rage you will be at the damage cap ... and you will be endurance hungry.

I agree about the end issues but in my mind these only really apply pre-Stamina.

I don't necessarily agree about the stacking issue (as someone else pointed out, this is more about group make up and set combo integration then it is about multiple Tankers).

Having said that, I'd stick to the endurance issues (or at least make them my priority). Your suggestion seems to be somewhat based on "stances" that tank types in some other games receive to switch between damage and defensive modes ... as I replied in Starsman's Gauntlet 2.0 thread, I have a hard time seeing the devs making any changes that involve Tankers doing more damage.

Not sure what I would recommend here except to address pre-Stamina end issues (I don't have many other issues with Tankers in general (specific sets aside)).

*EDIT* I'd like to amend that I could see a lot of merit with this type of change, were it be involved with a general AT upgrade (all ATs).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the pre-Stamina levels in question, rest is often needed after every spawn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I generally only see this when new players forget to turn off Sprint.

[ QUOTE ]
If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer. The same goes for a 3 minion spawn of CoT spectres. Leaving aside whether your hit points will carry you through such a fight, the end game of any such single spawn will consist of waiting for enough endurance to fire off an attack and hoping it hits; and you will need to rest when it is over.

[/ QUOTE ]
This why my usual advice for early levels is "Accuracy, Accuracy, Accuracy!"

What I think may be a problem is that new players don't realize how weak those early Enhancements are. While slotting a mix of Enhancements like Accuracy, Damage and Endurance might seem like a good idea, they're barely effecting the power. That's why I'm all for more effective Enhancements early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thinking exactly.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The only concerning part (to me) was the L54 Banes seemed to have their way with me as well which I wasn't too pleased with.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not 100% certain, but since the Banes are summoned by Lord Recluse, I believe they inherit some of his buffs. The 30% +tohit buff from the blue tower (which seemed to be inherited when my softcapped SR scrapper last faced them and LR) made 45% melee defense feel like 15%...and they hit hard.

Their level difference (+4) to us also amplifies any inherited +toHit over their base of 50%, since it gives them an accuracy boost against us at L50. As bosses, they get even more built-in accuracy boost.

Note: I was using combat logs to estimate their tohit buff, someone with a power analyzer could confirm/deny my observations (assuming the attribute monitor is correctly designed to show any inherited buffs).

I've been working on SD/DM tank and a DM/SD brute as well...still below L35 but already quite fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah that would make sense then ... SD is notoriously weak against mobs that have large +toHit. I've done L54 bosses before and in greater numbers with this build and hadn't any major issues, so I'm thinking you are correct about their bonuses.

Sarrate: Ahh thank you for clearing that up, I'm going to have to rethinking some of my slotting now. Any insight into the Banes that Recluse spawns?

[ QUOTE ]
My feeling in general is that if you need to ask if you should sell them, then yes, you should. That kind of influence can get you so much performance from non-purple IO sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

/agree

[ QUOTE ]
You can have up to five of them in any one build before their bonuses stop applying.

However additional 7.5% bonuses from sets are not counted with the LotG IOs so theoretically you can have up to five of those bonuses as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

LotG: +Recharge doesn't count against the rule of 5?

[ QUOTE ]


Shortening the recharge time for Rest is probably a stopgap --- the entire role of endurance needs to be re-examined, and the Fitness pool ought to be truly optional IMO. But as far as I can see it does minimal damage to the actual combat mechanics, and will not change anything that is now working as intended.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true ... but I don't think a faster Rest would make L1-20 more fun to play (only a smidge less tedious).

[ QUOTE ]
before ED, inv/ss was a beast in farming. Can't speak for it now. DA/SS isn't going to be too much better, but all I was saying is that it was viable. With the damage aura and a second aoe from epics, should work decently.


been trying to figure out a scrapper for awhile now, may try spines/fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before ED Inv/SS Tankers were slightly better at farming (perma Hasten, +200% enhanced damage, triple rage, etc ...) but there weren't any APPs at the time, so you were stuck with only Footstomp as your AOE. Easy to use to farm yes ... not very quick especially when you compare them to Spines/Regen Scrappers, Fire/Fire Burn Tankers, or Fire/* Controllers and their 15 imps at the time.

You'd think it would be a unique but no, LotG: +Recharge is not unique.