Kinslayer_

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Of the 18 extra enhancements that I have, 12 of them are slotted on powers chosen at 40+. I think this would probably be similar across most people and so I don't see this as being too much of an issue.

Imo, its all down to the very limited arena PvP that villains have experienced so far, and their knowledge of both hero and villain powersets.

For example, all of the stalkers we faced running into a full team of heroes solo and expecting not to be seen.

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Not only that, there is a post somewhere on here about how SO's become less effective as you exemp down through the levels and Bridger has confirmed that this is true. While exemping down will leave you stronger than a non exemped alt of the same level, it IS scaled down so the effectiveness of those extra slots is weakened.

Coupled up with the fact most of those extra slots are spent on powers that you don't have available when exemped, I've always felt the difference those 10 levels make is not as big as some people might like to think.

If anything, Gutts team showed that the team work on the heroes side is the main factor. They had similar teamwork and caused a few surprises. When I looked on in one of their battles, they were fighting VERY differently to the other villain teams I watched.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, knowing a lot of people disagree with me. Villains fight villains and because there are clearly groups that are good, consider themselves to be good PvP'ers. On the occasions they fight heroes and are beaten, usually quite heavily, they say it's balance and slots that are the problem.

It's Not.

Yes, they are a factor and in close run battles will make a difference. But, most of the battles, including those on Sunday, saw the villains not getting beaten but completely slaughtered.

Until villains are willing to have several months worth of getting pwned by the best hero PvP groups on a REGULAR basis, things will never change.

We HAVE to face heroes in pentad and arena competition whenever possible, not just to see what works against them but also to see how they work. I'm in the process of holding a few Tuesday night arena battles against other villains so I can get some PvP experience. Once I've got to the point where I know what my role is, I will not be waiting until my PvP team is one of the best villain ones before fighting heroes. As soon as we can function on a basic level as a team, we will be fighting hero teams straight away.

I know we will probably be suffering a lot of defeats for a long time, but I think we're going to learn more from that than anywhere else. With the feedback we'll be getting from those teams, they'll be able to let us know what works and what doesn't and we'll have people observing as well to give feedback.

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So. Should I bother trying out a new villain? Or will I just get annoyed at the lack of content and boring stories, and should just wait for I7?

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Surely you jest there Tech? The zone arcs and background, the way they all fit in and lead up to particular SF's or AV encounter are a LOT more thought out than on CoH and it's the arcs that give give CoV a reason to play!

Anyway, back to the main point. I've played CoH from day one and started out as a blaster before throwing in the towel at 31. I then went with a katana/regen before getting bored with him at lvl 42 and switched to a fire/ice tank who was my first lvl 50.

On CoV, I have played every AT up to 20. My favourite AT across all 12 available is the Corruptor. This is pretty surprising as I love playing my scrapper for his pure offence and my tank for the fact he refuses to die. Even more so when Blasters and Defenders, the closest AT's to Corruptors on CoH, are not very high on my favourite list.

I've got a lvl 40 Fire/Thermal and every step of the way with him has been fun. He's a pure PvE team build and is completely useless in PvP. His offence is quite low as he only has 2 'standard' attacks with his others being a snipe and Nova. Despite this, I can solo with him in a way I could never manage on a blaster and 'Scourge' is one of the best inherents about. That said, it's teaming where he comes into his own.

I've also started work on an Ice/Ice Corruptor for PvP and while his build is specialised for that, I also think he's great. Nothing is more fun in PvE than seeing a +3 Freak tank lumber towards me like he's running through treacle while I dance just out of range throwing snowballs at him

Depsite the strnght of brutes, damage of AS and sheer number of pets for MM's, seeing a team of Corruptors tear through missions with the enemies debuffed to hell while we're buffed to the max is pretty impressive.

If you are a team player, nothing relies on teaming more than a Dom. I would avoid Stalkers and MM's though as they are probably the two most 'solo' builds in CoV

Just thought I'd pop in here and put to rest a few malicious rumours flying about. E.V.I.L were a shambles in the Pentad and no one could believe such a team of noobs had the front to actually enter

All joking aside, you guys done great last night and, much as it's going to fuel his ego, there were several comments on Max and his Stalker.

Good job guys and if any of you are free Tuesday night, The Horde, Syndicate and LLOD are going to try out a few arena battles. Not likely to be pentad but we all just turn up and arrange a few different battles to see what we can learn and mix the teams up a bit.

Instinct? Laziness?

My gut reaction when my health drops is to leg it back towards my own lines. Even if I'm right at the other side of the zone, I will run as hard and fast as I can to safety then turn and head back as soon as any pursuit has gone.

I often ask myself why I would make two trips across the zone to escape the death, then get back to the action once it's over, when I could simply let him kill me and only make the trip back from hospital. Still doesn't stop the 'fight or flee' mentality kicking in though.

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Any feedback on how the Brutes performed Kin?

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Not really, Brutes are the hardest one for me to make any comment on as I'm never sure what they should be doing in PvP. We know what tanks and scrappers do and my overall view would be that brutes should replicate the scrapper role.

However, that leaves aggro management down to MM's, fine against PvE AI who will fight them but useless in PvP when everyone just ignores them and goes for the MM. Unless MM's get some sort of taunt built in, that leaves brutes to try and taunt aggro off the buffers/debuffers and they're not cut out for it like Tanks.

Again, there is the issue of mobility though as I actually saw one Brute who respawned after a kill. GA was up immediately and he then lumbered off back towards the fight. It took aggeeesss. Why TP isn't standard from granite brutes I don't know but going into a PvP event with those sorts of mobility problems is suicide.

Only really saw that one brute in action TBH.

One thing that annoyed the hell out of me as an observer though, why are the names over both teams the same orange colour? It was VERY hard working out who was on what team so why they don't just have different colours for each side, like in the PvP zones, is beyond me.

My view of this is that deliberately taking out spectators when they are trying to watch a fight is a very bad thing and the people who find this amusing do have something wrong with them. Really, they are the sort of people I would avoid teaming with as it shows they have no consideration for others.

That said, It is not always clear people are spectating and you have to accept there is a risk involved. If someone kills me while spectating, I just inform them I'm watching a fight and ask them to leave me. Only if they then come back and kill me again does it annoy me.

As for complaining about mobs, inflicting debt? If you don't want debt, don't go into a PvP zone. Whenever I go into a PvP zone for a prolonged period of time, I accept I will be trying to grab an exemp afterwards. Again, those who deliberately inflict debt are idiots but it will happen.

One exchange that amused me in Sirens the other day was aimed at a stalker on my team

Hero Tank "Stop using AS. It's not fair"
Me "OK, agree with you on that one. Can you turn all your toggles off though as that's not fair either and ask your controller to stop using holds?"

Very little response to that

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it all sounds good and all.. however why the level 1 to 5? surely this is too low to be creative with anything.

If it was 40-50 I'd be interested.
personally I just dont see the fun or skill in lvl 1 to 5 games.

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Must admit that I've not really been interested in this at all. Even though it's lvl 1-5, it will be won by a high lvl team due to the SO's making such a huge difference at such a low level. If it's an attempt to get new players into PvP, that fact alone will possibly have the opposite effect.

It also seems pretty restrictive with only 32 teams on only the hero side and just on Union.

After last nights Pentad, I would like to see more of these organised and orgnaising in advance is probably the way to go after last nights chaos but I don't really see what a lvl 5 pentad achieves? With almost no powers, these are just going to be about who can click brawl the fastest!

OK, we had the PvP Pentad tournament last night and while things didn't go to planned, we did get a lot from it as a result. Due to an initial poor tunrout on the hero side, the decision was made to have mixed hero/villain matches in two groups of 5.

As a result of this, it was probably the first time there have been a series of Hero V Villain pentads and there's a lot of points to come out of it. Here are a few points I noticed and hope everyone there will chip in with their viewpoints and identify any areas of improvement

StalkersWere Under Used In General
I didn't look at all the builds for the stalkers involved but it seems there was only one or two specifically designed for PvP. I'm not sure of how the stacking of -Perception stuff works but a visible stalker leaves you down to 4 on 5. I know Hide and Stealth stack but does grant invis also stack? If that is the case, future pentad teams MUST have someone with this to make use of Stalkers correctly.

Pets are No Use At All
I think everyone saw this. Even when the pets were out, I noticed them missing a lot and the standard '2 accuracies' that tends to apply to PvP builds needs to be upped to 3 in the case of pets(probably sue to the -1 level on them?). I don't actually know too much about MM secondaries but one thing I have seen is that some of them heal for double what my lvl 40 Thermal does. I've seen MM's doing group heals over the 400 mark compared to my Thermals 200-300.

So, could the best PvP MM be one that doesn't really bother with pets but concentrates exclusively buff and debuffs? As I said, I don't really know MM's and this is just somehting I've observed from watching matches and PvE.

Movement Is Key
I know this has been bought up and there are a few arguments over it but I watched 3 of the hero/villain matches and in only one of those did I see any form of movement from the villains. The two matches with the lack of movmeent were both ones that resulted in HEAVY victories for the Hero teams and the one that I did see a lot of movement in was a very slight victory for the Hero team.

Dominator Pet's
I actually saw a couple of these summoned and my gut reaction was... Huh? A Dominator should be all about holds. Pets do not do enough damage to worry PvP teams and as soon as the Dom is down, they're gone anyway.

Taunting From Brutes
I don't think I saw a single taunt all night. I know Brutes do not have the defence of tanks but a fully buffed one who is kept healed can still pull the biggest threat on the hero side off of your squishies with a taunt.

Overall
I still DO think villain teams can beat hero teams, but I do NOT think villains will win regularly in pentad matches. The key AT's for villains are definitely Corruptors and Stalkers so a 5 man team with a chance would be made up of these two, possibly with a Dom thrown in from what I've seen so far.

Dominators need some love in PvP as they are a poor relation when it comes to controllers. I would love to see some mez resistance tests run to see how much weaker they are but without Domination, they rarely get holds in. If anyone has an hour or so to copy some toons over to test and try this out, let me know. Basically, I'd copy 2 or 3 controllers and doms over with the same powersets and same level(and a respec available if possible) and spam a few holds on tanks and brutes in arena to see how much easier Trollers can break the mez than Doms. A very simple test but should give us some figures if run enough times.

MM's need some huge love in PvP as pets really aren't any use.

Corruptors and Stalkers are the key. One thing I did see during the fights was that villain teams did not seem to be bubbled or buffed anywhere near as highly as the hero teams. When heroes were hitting, they were taking off huge chunks of HP but when villains were hitting, they seemed to be missing, doing minimal damage and the damage was healed quickly. On the whole, heroes seemd to be spamming buffs and debuffs a lot more than villains as the Corruptors and MM's seemed to be concentrating on dealing damage.

I'm no PvP expert and I only saw brief bits and pieces of the matches going on so anyone else who was in teh amtches or saw them, please add your views. While yesterday did end in the Heroes favour, there has definitely been progress on the Villain side from the last time I saw any of these sort of matches and I think we can definitely close it more once we have 40+ and a bit more time.

OK, I've had some feed back from a few people regarding this and it seems there was mix up on the format change for the villain side.

All of the hero teams were asked about the change of format and agreed it but it seems a few teams were left out of the loop over on the villain side. Apologies for that.

Moving on, I'd like this thread to be used for commenting on the actual format and organisation of the pentad, rather than the tactics used. The reason for this is that I will be opening a seperate thread in the PvP forum for discussions on the actual tactics so would prefer people to post in there.

Dr Death also made an interesting discovery while all this was going on and has sent some numbers to Bridger about a flaw in the SK/Exemp system for arena. I know a couple of the Villain teams involved were actually below the level range and one lvl 35 was getting faceplanted more than a couple of extra slots should have made the difference on. Once he has feedback he will be posting the results but it looks like there is a huge bug involved that makes even a 1 or 2 level difference in arena fights a major factor.

OK, I've had some feed back from a few people regarding this and it seems there was mix up on the format change for the villain side.

All of the hero teams were asked about the change of format and agreed it but it seems a few teams were left out of the loop over on the villain side. Apologies for that.

Moving on, I'd like this thread to be used for commenting on the actual format and organisation of the pentad, rather than the tactics used. The reason for this is that I will be opening a seperate thread in the PvP forum for discussions on the actual tactics so would prefer people to post in there.

Dr Death also made an interesting discovery while all this was going on and has sent some numbers to Bridger about a flaw in the SK/Exemp system for arena. I know a couple of the Villain teams involved were actually below the level range and one lvl 35 was getting faceplanted more than a couple of extra slots should have made the difference on. Once he has feedback he will be posting the results but it looks like there is a huge bug involved that makes even a 1 or 2 level difference in arena fights a major factor.

All those taking part on the VG/SG Leader channel were involved and asked there opinion on the format changes and agreed with them, including your VG leader Toughguy.

I am glad we mixed the teams in the end as Max Powerz showed the gulf between heroes and villains is not as wide as some people expect and that the extra slots available to the heroes could have made things a bit more even, if villains had them. I think we made the best of the situation on the night.

This was the first time anyone has tried to do something like this outside of S4(which had months of planning) and while there were clearly problems, those who were understanding and patient are thanked for their co-operation.

We've seen the wrinkles and I feel it was far from a failure. I for one learned a hell of a lot just by watching one or two matches.

With only 4 hero teams there at the start, we had the choice of continuing as a straight knockout. This would have left the Heroes who had been preparing since it's announcement only guaranteed one match, two at best and only a maximum of 3 matches for the villains.

After consulting with the relevant VG/SG leaders it was agreed we would change the format so people who had arrived would get more matches due to the low turnout.

I'm sorry some people felt they wasted their time but I think we made the right decision in how it was run after we saw how many teams arrived. I certainly don't feel I wasted the 4 and a half hours I was stuck in there tying to organise it without a chance of any action for myself or Ronin, despite the fact it wasn't very enjoyable for either of us.

There was a VERY important reason for not taking teams in advance for this. It was NOT organised to give the big PvP groups a stage but was organised to try and get more casual players involved, which is why we were allowing people to meet up and form teams just before the event. Yes, it did not work out as I hoped with only a handful of teams like this but there were people there who had never really PvP'd before and they turned up, got a team and took part. Advance registration may be a better idea but there will ALWAYS be a delay at the start while we allow for latecomers before finally drawing the matches. Considering Ronin had to re-do the entire format and draw on the fly for over 20 matches, I think he done a great job.

I will be getting in touch with people to see how they think it can be improved and will chat with Ronin. Given the feedback on the forums, not too sure I will be prepared to give up another 5 hours of my play time though as it's been less than encouraging so far. I will get the feedback though and post how I would change it should someone else want to organise one in future.

Special mention once more to Max's team for doing the villains proud, Deluge's hastily cobbled together PuG who done pretty well considering they had never played together. Bitter Ice's team was also very impressive until they were knocked out with total domination of their group, only suffering one death in all 4 matches of the group stage. I think there is someone else as well... Oh that's right, Shaman X's team who actually won

Whether we arrange another one remains to be seen. After giving up 5 hours of my personal time, not too sure I'm prepared to do it again.

I do want to thank those who took part though. Some of the battles I did manage to actually watch when I got a spare minute or two made excellent viewing.

All those taking part on the VG/SG Leader channel were involved and asked there opinion on the format changes and agreed with them, including your VG leader Toughguy.

I am glad we mixed the teams in the end as Max Powerz showed the gulf between heroes and villains is not as wide as some people expect and that the extra slots available to the heroes could have made things a bit more even, if villains had them. I think we made the best of the situation on the night.

This was the first time anyone has tried to do something like this outside of S4(which had months of planning) and while there were clearly problems, those who were understanding and patient are thanked for their co-operation.

We've seen the wrinkles and I feel it was far from a failure. I for one learned a hell of a lot just by watching one or two matches.

With only 4 hero teams there at the start, we had the choice of continuing as a straight knockout. This would have left the Heroes who had been preparing since it's announcement only guaranteed one match, two at best and only a maximum of 3 matches for the villains.

After consulting with the relevant VG/SG leaders it was agreed we would change the format so people who had arrived would get more matches due to the low turnout.

I'm sorry some people felt they wasted their time but I think we made the right decision in how it was run after we saw how many teams arrived. I certainly don't feel I wasted the 4 and a half hours I was stuck in there tying to organise it without a chance of any action for myself or Ronin, despite the fact it wasn't very enjoyable for either of us.

There was a VERY important reason for not taking teams in advance for this. It was NOT organised to give the big PvP groups a stage but was organised to try and get more casual players involved, which is why we were allowing people to meet up and form teams just before the event. Yes, it did not work out as I hoped with only a handful of teams like this but there were people there who had never really PvP'd before and they turned up, got a team and took part. Advance registration may be a better idea but there will ALWAYS be a delay at the start while we allow for latecomers before finally drawing the matches. Considering Ronin had to re-do the entire format and draw on the fly for over 20 matches, I think he done a great job.

I will be getting in touch with people to see how they think it can be improved and will chat with Ronin. Given the feedback on the forums, not too sure I will be prepared to give up another 5 hours of my play time though as it's been less than encouraging so far. I will get the feedback though and post how I would change it should someone else want to organise one in future.

Special mention once more to Max's team for doing the villains proud, Deluge's hastily cobbled together PuG who done pretty well considering they had never played together. Bitter Ice's team was also very impressive until they were knocked out with total domination of their group, only suffering one death in all 4 matches of the group stage. I think there is someone else as well... Oh that's right, Shaman X's team who actually won

Whether we arrange another one remains to be seen. After giving up 5 hours of my personal time, not too sure I'm prepared to do it again.

I do want to thank those who took part though. Some of the battles I did manage to actually watch when I got a spare minute or two made excellent viewing.

Bridger has set up seperate thread for SG Recruitment HERE

IGNORE THAT POST

It will be capped at lvl 40. Appears we were given the wrong information as we were told that the lvl range for arena, i.e 35-37, meant you HAD to be at least 35.

Zak has pointed out this is wrong as you just get auto LK'd to minimum lvl if you are not high enough.

The matches WILL be fought at Cruiserweight which is lvl 38-40 and will be rated. ANY lvl can take part though, you just get SK/exemped to the level range.

Once again, apologies for all the messing around but someone gave the wrong info out on the Union Leaders channel

IGNORE THAT POST

It will be capped at lvl 40. Appears we were given the wrong information as we were told that the lvl range for arena, i.e 35-37, meant you HAD to be at least 35.

Zak has pointed out this is wrong as you just get auto LK'd to minimum lvl if you are not high enough.

The matches WILL be fought at Cruiserweight which is lvl 38-40 and will be rated. ANY lvl can take part though, you just get SK/exemped to the level range.

Once again, apologies for all the messing around but someone gave the wrong info out on the Union Leaders channel

IMPORTANT UPDATE

Due to the earlier mistake of mentioning lvl 35-40, we have finalised this tournament at Middleweight, lvl 32-37.

IMPORTANT UPDATE

Due to the earlier mistake of mentioning lvl 35-40, we have finalised this tournament at Middleweight, lvl 32-37.

I know what you mean Tylantia. I've had similar issues, not with TP foe specifically but the bases in general.

My idea is that all defences are abolished as it makes it too tough for attacking teams if the other side just camp their base. The alternative is to simply make a 100% safe zone. None of the opposition can enter none of those in there can use powers.

The same as when you enter a PvP zone and can't actually do anything for 25 seconds, just implement that same status whenever in that zone.

Any PvP'er worth his salt will have a resistance to holds, though some do have a higher mag than others. However, tents are an immob, not a hold.

Trying them on tanks and scrappers is generally a waste of time and if you're going to hold someone, you'll need to look at the other AT's. Defenders are normally buffed against holds so take a look at blasters as chances are the only in built mez resistance they have will be from the leaping pool.

2 AC is the minimum for any PvP power really but you may want to look at 3 for a hold if it seems ineffective. Recharges will also make a difference as you can overlap on the hold then until you build up enough to break the mez resistance.

A single hold will never break any mez resist in PvP but one or two can usually do the job against squishies with no mez buffs so recharging quick and stacking will be the key.

Know what you mean Max. Instant raids used to have more realxed rules than the 'will they ever appear' IoP ones but last weeks patch seems to have put paid to that. So much for making bases and their features more available to smaller SG's.

As for the fact every raid member crashes when the attackers enter the base, I sent a bug and so did eveyone else involved in the raid we tried last night.

Taken over a week to organise this one and given the problems we've had in the past, last nights was probably the final nail in the coffin of my main VG's raiding as everyone was mighty annoyed at the waste of so much playing time.

It's a real shame as most of my guys aren't really into raids and I've found they are the most fun and easiest area of PvP to do well in

OK, picture the scene. It's Sirens call on Union(Thursday 20th April for those who were there) and villains are getting a pasting in the centre of the zone and are massively outnumbered by heroes, the biggest number advantage I've seen as there was less than one team of villains but at least 3 hero teams.

Despite that, we tried to hold our ground but were eventually pushed back to the base. Regardless of this, we were working better as a team and even with the huge number advantage, we were still picking off some of the more noobish hero players as they foolishly got seperated and were picking up some good bounty.

Then it happens, I'm in a one on one with a troller and it was a pretty good battle with us both in the red and having held each other... Then 8, that's right 8, heroes all jump in and pound me. Fair enough, it's not arena and I was fair game but what was amusing was they really did seem very proud that they had managed to take adown a Corruptor outnumbered 8 to 1 who was already in the red.

Made a tongue in cheek remark over broadcast by saying 'good gank guys, nice to know you're that scared of me it takes 8 of you '.

The next 30 minutes then involved nearly every hero about breaking targets just to attack me EVERY time I was sighted. I kept up the remarks along the lines 'Nearly had you there X. Lucky you had your 10 friends with you ' and so on. There were actually some wittier remarks than that but I can't remember them .

In general, it was all good humoured and I actually decided to bait them by saying things like 'bet you can't kill me twice in two minutes' and 'Good kill, hope you got lot's of bounty/rep from me '

it worked quite well as the three stalkers about then decided to follow me around, knowing the heroes were like bees to a honey pot and they could AS them in their haste to kill me. It was also particularly satisfying that the one who was organising the ganking on me was taken down about 5 times like this!

What did amuse me though was simply... Why?

I was getting killed so quickly that none of those killing me were getting rep or bounty yet the stalkers in my team were picking off the choicest bounty targets as they swarmed over me. They couldn't have been enjoying the challenge as there was none. Not only was I outnumbered badly I'm new to PvP and still learning which brings me to the question of why people PvP?

For me, the fun times I've been having in PvP have been when the battles are at their most even. Doesn't matter if the numbers are even, I'll quite happily be outnumbered if my side has enough skillful players to make balance out and vice versa. If I'm getting pwned, I will normally stay around as long as possible trying to get that elusive kill on the guy who has been killing me every 5 minutes but as soon as my side is dominating through numbers or superior skill, that's when I'll get bored and leave. After all, what am I actually learning from it?

The other by product is, of course, a little bit more rep and bounty for those lovely SO's.

Seeing as I was easy pickings and offering no rep, bounty or challenge, what is it that these people were getting out of the battle last night?

Also worth noting that by offering myself up as the 'sacrificial lamb' and having the trio of stalkers picking off kills, I must have out earned those attacking me in terms of bounty/rep by at least 3 times!

Also found the lvl 25 tank complaining of being ganked as she was hit by three people VERY funny as she was in the middle of a group of about 15 heroes at the time and had been in with the mass ganking on us villains for at least the last 30 minutes!

(Even managed to find an existing thread rather than start a new one!)

I need to get my third respec for my lvl 46 scrapper but 5PM is a little early for me as I only get home around 5.30-5.45.

If you've not started by then and need me, just holler over the badge channel. Not fussed if I do first or second as they'll both give it.

Hell, could even do the first for all I care!

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I got your tell late thusday night kin i am hoping to set up a raid with Order of reckening tuesday they just dont know it yet but if theirs time will like to do it if not would another time be ok.

The Hordenly the strong survive.

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Have you managed to get raids working yet since the patch? tried a couple over the last few nights and been having awful problems such as D/C's on loading, mapserver problems, getting kicked from the base..

Got one planned for tonight so hoping we don't have more of the same.

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Is server swapping with influence even possible? =o

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Nope. What he probably means is that he will give a high level Defiant player some inf for any alts on Union in exchange for inf to his alt on Defiant

It will be public but the abuse potential should be minimal. No one will know who they're fighting in advance and you can't talk to people in the arena so can't feed them info.

You 'Could' potentially identify threats on a specific team in advance but it would serve almost no purpose whatsoever for two reasons.

- I'd expect the players to look at the builds of those they are up against before entering and identify the threats anyway.

- If they don't do this, they will know who the threat is after the first skirmish.

So, anyone who's actually sad enough to use a spy may save their team just one death in the early matches. By the time we get near the end, I epxect general area chat will have already identified the ones to watch out for.