Johnny_Butane

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It's a much better option than trying to re-engineer one existing archetype to duplicate the abilities of another existing archetype.

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It's not re-engineering so much as an addition to fix a design flaw the lead developer admitted was an error.



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Based on their strength levels alone, The Thing and Superman would be Blue Side SS/INV brutes.

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Superman and the Thing are not Brutes. They are not ruled by their emotions. The Hulk is a Brute.

Superman and the Thing fit as Tankers for their teams conceptually because they do rush forward to take the brunt of an attack.

But Supes and the Thing also have the hitting power when the time comes for it and when they don't have to worry about their teammates.

When pushed, Supes will unload a pile of hurt.
He is the meatshield, but when he cuts loose, watch out.

Which is what Tankers lack conceptually. They protect teammates, and that's fine. The problem is they aren't allowed to cut loose from their medium damage.

Comic Brutes get carried away on their anger. Comic Tankers make a tactical decision to kick it up a notch and stop pulling their punches.

Which is something I've been trying to get for CoH Tankers.


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Rather I'd like to see the mechanical and conceptual portrayal of signature characters move away from "Hero's Heroes" and towards "Example Heroes". Amusingly enough this is actually how the CoH comic portrays the phalanx at times

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In my opinion, they stopped being this the second they were given signature powers/attacks no player can ever get, not to mention breaking simple AT rules like Statesman having a ton of damage compared to the best Inv/SS Tanker ever, and Positron being tougher and having more HP than any Defender that ever was.

On a purely work invested vs returns level, I question the wisdom of creating custom powers, costume parts and effects for signature characters that a player will never enjoy themselves and will only see from 20 meters away during an encoutner that they're likely paying attention to their HP and endurance bars.

The time spend perfecting Reichsman's swirling purple Aura of Domination or Statesman's lightning attacks wasn't spent as wisely as it could have been if versions of those attacks/effects are not going to be made available to players at some point.


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On a more technical note, the AV regen rate -- which, as a percentage, is only 1.5 times that of a lieutenant or boss, and just seems high because of an AVs total hit points

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There's also the issue of resistances.
The characters that are capable of soloing an AV tend to be, if not are exclusively, non-S/L oriented.

You can easily have two characters of the same AT, the same quality of build with the same expensive IOs, played by players of the same skill level, yet one is allowed to be able to defeat an AV and the other is not by virtue that they chose the "wrong" power set. That's not fair by any means.


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1) AVs should have mez protection, but not the PTOD. If a Tanker has 17.3 MAG of protection, then give Statesman that, but not more. If he hit Unstoppable then he gets another 17.3. Still makes him hella hard, but fairly so. If Sister Psyche is Mind/FF then she gets the 6-9 FF defenders get and no sleep protection.

2) Tame the AVs regen rate. Unless they're a regen type character, AVs should not have such a high regen rate, IMO. This serves only to require [X] amount of DPS or -regen to take them down. And if the AV is regen, they they should not have much if any resistance (except in MoG)

3) Tame AV damage. Fighting an AV should be like fighting an expert and strong player. AVs being able to do 1700 HP in one swing is silly.

Tankers should be able to defeat AVs if they're built and played right. It should take a long time, it should be epic. But it should be possible. Right now, the right combo can stand against an AV easily while another dies in seconds.



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EvilGeko presents a compromise I had not considered.

In regards to #'s 2 and 3, what if AVs got a base regeneration and damage reduction and had powers similar to Rise to the Challenge and Against All Odds added, each with map-wide (or increadibly huge) radius. That way they would be possible for more builds and power sets to tackle solo, yet still scale for teams. In fact that would give the devs even finer control on content for small teams vs large teams.

I would still rather other alternatives to AVs being used attempted most of the time and would still like to see narrative/plot reasons for the power up.


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Unless I am misinterpreting him, Johnny_Butane feels that the Signature characters (Statesman, Lord Recluse, etc) should be EBs, and that AV status should be reserved for 'plot device' characters or raid characters only.


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In content intended for level 40-45+ players.

It should be noted that a great deal of the newer Team Only content in question, I have no objection with. As far as this subject goes, the ITF is nearly perfect, with the exception of the third mission.


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In a case where a team of players encounters a Signature character, he thinks the system should generate an AV helper, or a team of EB helpers, or the story should include a plot device that makes it clear that the signature character's elevation to AV status is plot-related and temporary.


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Those were just a couple of suggestions. I'm sure the devs could come up with other creative ways of providing challenge to a team or solo player on Invincible than bloating up the end encounter to an AV.


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I'd love a shape changer too. I don't know how they'd do it, considering they have alternate costumes, and now effects when changing them, I see nothing preventing alteration of the appearance of the character. The issue would be in the powers, and how to link certain powers to certain appearances.

The Kheldians have something like this now, I guess we're looking for something with a little more freedom.

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It's really just not viable. They don't even have animation rigs for four-legged animals.

One thing similar I've always wanted, and is well within their ability, is a Totemic Animals power set. I could easily see it as a defensive set with a number of exclusive toggles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vixen_(comics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravestarr


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They would either need to have a bunch of animations of certain lengths and then allow you to swop out for animations of the same length, or have some way to speed up/slow down animations so that they fit the activation times of the powers.

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Or stick a pause at the begining and/or end to make up the difference.



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Personally I'd rather they were working on more compelling content than customization. Being able to make your powers prettier is fine...but if I'm still taking my highly customized, dark chocolate energy blasts through the same type of missions time after time...in a while the customization won't mean much.


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Also, power costumization will have to be a lot more than just tinting particle effects to cut the mustard at this point.

Changing cast animations for ranged attacks and changing melee attacks at the very least.


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It could have been done, but it wasn't. Yeah, I'm still a little miffed that they shoehorned the 2 most iconic powers in comicbookdom (SS/Inv) into an aggro manager, but not as mad as I used to be. It's done, it's not going to change dramaticaly ever. I've accepted that and moved on.

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What fuels my anger and keeps me smacking this brick wall over and over in the chance that it'll give, is that the devs admitted the mistake. Their lead designer copped to it AND promised to fix it. And it's obviously NOT fixed because few would claim Tankers are the big guns they are in comics.

Also, I strongly suspect that no one making a new super hero MMO is going to make that mistake again. They're either going with a stances system (swapping from Brick to Tanker at will) or they're going with actually having a Brick class and likely not a class that's as defensive/aggro sponge oriented as Tankers are.

Other deveopers have learned, why the heck can't these devs learn from their self-admitted error and try to fix it?



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I don't really care if it's coming or not, but if power customization is not going to be in Going Rogue, they should say so quickly, rather than let players get their hopes up.

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Fat chance of that. They don't care about player disapointment. They do care about waving a carrot on a stick in front of players who think that power customization might be in Going Rogue so they'll stay subscribed longer and keep the cash flowing.



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We all know that trying to tank in a team with a bunch of KnockBack sucks, but a reduction to other AT's KB powers isn't fair to them soooo.

Add a "KB to KD/KU" conversion aspect to Taunt/Guantlet so that anything under the influence of a tanker's taunt effect isn't sent flying away.

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This would render half of the Hand Clap power useless. On a power that's already considered fairly lame and of limited use, this would be a problem in my opinion.

Yes, I realize it would still have the Disorient, and yes I realize that Hand Clap's KnockBack is what hurts its usefulness, but the fact remains that the power was balanced with both KB and Disorient in mind, and removing half of that equation without also rebalancing the power isn't something that should be done.

You package this up with replacing Hand Clap's KnockBack with massive -res debuffs and giving something similar as a replacement to all other melee powers that have KnockBack now, then maybe we'll talk.


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In response to this:

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and then Invuln... yeah.


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and this from Starflier...

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Inv is a great set that is really only missing a fast recharging heal.

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I've not really complained about Invul since the changes. I fought and scrapped and whined at Castle and Invul got changes. That being said, I'm going to continue not complaining, but I don't feel that should exclude me on commenting on Invul.

In my opinion, as it is Invul suffers from two things really:

The first is Willpower being slightly too good. Willpower gets a lot survivability for the amount of utility it has compared to both other sets in general and to Invul specifically. It does more on fewer powers than Invul does. WP's main advantages (Psi protection, high regeneration and recovery)are ones you can't get as easily from pool powers as you can Invul's main ones (S/L resistance, ToHit). Invul and WP are quite similar sets, and being so similar, it's easy to compare the two and find Invul lacking in more than a couple things players value more than the advantages Invul has.

The second is that Invul is an old set. It was designed for another game, a game without ED. It was designed in a time when having +ToHit in Invincibility meant you didn't have to slot Accuracy in your attacks, meaning you could slot for more damage or endredux. It's from a time when six slotting the passives was a viable build. Excluding slotting for specific IO bonuses, this is no longer the case. Many of the advantages Invul had were diminished over time as the game changed. It also has had a complicated history when it came to the devs trying to balance it properly.

To Starflier, yes I would agree a faster heal would help the set. Reducing Dull Pain's cycle time would accomplish this. I also think adding some (in combat) regeneration to the set in some way wouldn't be unreasonable.

But all in all, after the more recent changes it's a solid set. Solid, but not stellar. It's not king of survivability in many situations by any means, nor does it have a strong theme (survivability should be its theme IMO) nor do I feel it's optimized for today's game as well as it should be. But honestly, I'm happy it got looked at, and I'm happy enough with how it is now. Let someone else fight for a fast self heal. I'm working on getting Tankers some teeth.


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Why not a GM 5th Column MechMan we have to beat up. Maybe give him "weak points" which heroes/villains need to attack to bring him down; rotate the "weak points" so each time he spawns, the fight is a bit different.

Or better yet. How about a GM in Atlas. I know, I know, Atlas is considered a "safe zone" where all the new toons don't have to worry about dieing, but I think that a brand new person to CoH, seeing a GM in Atlas, would have a "holy [censored], this game rocks" moment.

Or better yet. Have a Rularuu the Ravager GM in Shadow Shard. Or maybe combine the 2 ideas and have some Rularuu the Ravager "shadow reflection" appear in Atlas. A GM that doesn't attack, but takes a few full teams to put down.

Or...I think it would be really neat to have to battle the Giant Mech Men from ITF each time the ITF is completed. Make them a bit eaiser to take down b/c States/LR aren't in them.

I think the game needs more GMs, more spawning GMs at TF/SF completion, more rewards for GMs.

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I'm into supporting all kinds of zone events/non-instanced content.

Besides more GMs, I'd like to see soloable giant monsters also spawn in zones. EB class critters that are still pretty big in size. I would dub them Monsters, but we have Monsters and generally they're not soloable either. You could even make a case for scaling back guys like Kracken to this new class of creature.

Just going to throw out some ideas.


-Giant bugs. Swarms of Volkswagen-sized cockroaches, etc.

-A flying fortress for the 5th Column. Like the Arachnos Flier or the SHIELD Carrier.

-The Return of Talos and the Chimera. Somehow revived after all this time, they duke it out in the waters off Talos Island daily for the tourists.

-A flying prehistoric reptile.

-Hyperion Class Malta Titans. Smaller than a Kronos, larger than a Zeus. Moar giant robots. Chicks dig giant robots.


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whoever did the writing didn't have the kind of encyclopedic knowledge of game canon history that us obsessive players do, made a few assumptions based on the layout

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That's exactly what I think happend. They asked who the high level movers and shaker gangs are that haven't had a lot of screen time lately, and went with the CoT, Carnies, Crey and of course everyone's pal who can never be over exposed, Nemesis. Then they looked up what AVs they had for those gangs and Akarist ended up getting drafted.

How I would have done it, storyline wise:

Instead of approaching the big guns, I'd have Reichsman try to enlist the lesser gangs. I'd be more afraid of gangs with fantastic powers like the Outcasts, Trolls or Vahzilok getting organized under a competent, powerful leader and gaining access to the 5th's advanced weaponry, equipment and training. To me that's more scary than an Injustice Gang with five megalomanicas pulling in different directions and backstabbing each other. We've got Reclsue and Friends for that.

Can you imagine 5th troopers with elemental powers? War Wolf Trolls? Undead zombie warriors augmented with Mek Men parts?

The only issue I'd see is that Dr Vahzilok, Atta and Frostfire as AVs may not be much of a challenge for a decent 8 mean level 50 team.

Also, keep in mind Reichsman has a history of making sure his subordinates are weaker than him, so it would make sense for him to target gangs he's sure he could control and manage.




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The TFs are unfinished content that's very much a work in progress that you got to see early. After seeing what I've seen so far, I'm willing to wait to see what goes live before lambasting anyone.

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Who are you, and what have you done with Johnny Butane???

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This isn't a problem they promised to fix four years ago and didn't. This isn't shafting one AT's role and concept for the benefit of everyone else having a leveling crutch. And I'm pretty sure the writers and designers of this arc never came into a thread where I was working for improvements, pulled it off topic with frivolous comments, got it mod nuked and then laughed about it later.

It's not the same situation so I'm not going to treat it as being the same.


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I'm conflicted.

I find myself wanting to defend the devs on these TFs because it looks as if they are trying to do better with them with every patch.

The writing isn't as bad as people are making it out to be and the aspects that I find offensive about the TFs (AVs as a whole making players inferior to the signature characters being one thing) aren't the fault of these two TFs and they can't be solved by them or the writers/designers of them. If you want something to complain about, complain for better AI and a retooling of the AV/TF/team challenge mechanics as a whole. The design mandate isn't set by the designers. It's set by Positron. Complain to him. The writers and designers are just doing their best to work within that mandate. It's not their call to change it, and frankly, that's what needs to be changed to fix the underlaying problem that goes well beyond cutscenes and flavour text as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see the point in flogging a guy who just got here in i13 when it's clear to me, one of the devs' most vitrol spewing critics, that the people in question are trying their best and are making some headway and improvements.

The TFs are unfinished content that's very much a work in progress that you got to see early. After seeing what I've seen so far, I'm willing to wait to see what goes live before lambasting anyone.


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In order to still make these prospective AT IOs open to more, what if they were designed like the PvP IOs?

The Set will give "normal" bonuses for anyone, but will also give extra bonuses if used by the correct AT?

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... y'know, I like that idea.

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If possible, that's not a bad compromise. I suspect it's not, otherwise why wouldn't they have done it for the existing sets?


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Then you're simply speculating.


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I prefer to call it an educated guess.

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Just because they haven't released new information doesn't mean that there isn't any.


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No, but as I said before, it strongly suggests a lack of faith to me.

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It's also entirely possible that nothing on the survey (aside from side switching) is part of the new features. We simply do not know.


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I'm pretty damn sure of some things that aren't, and really that's enough to call it as far as I'm concerned.



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I believe Posi has also said something to the effect of (paraphrased): "the engine is actully quite powerful, and we haven't fully utilized it yet." So there's still room for the game to grow. (That may have been in terms of graphics, come to think of it. Hmm...)


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That was in reference to graphics, and I agree with it. What's largely limiting CoH from looking better than it does now isn't the engine. The engine, optimizations aside, is robust enough for the game to look better than it does.

What's hamstringing them are the art assets. Having to redo all of them to take advantage of new tech dropped in/unlocked from the existing engine is just as, if not more, time intensive than redoing them all for a new game.

In fact, it's worse because keeping it in this game, they have to make sure any new assets match up with old ones. You can't have the new stuff look too good. You can see the difference in something as simple as the old hair styles vs the ones that came in i11.

Again, their hands are tied by the garbage of the past 5 years instead of having the freedom to design something truly awesome.

But that's graphics. The AT/Power system being stuck the way it is has little to do with tech and everything to do with legacy issues. They can't even re-order powers without a huge fuss.

We can't run on/climb walls not because the engine couldn't do it, but because they'd have to go into every building/surface model and tag it as being able to be traversed. It's more easy to do that as part of the creation pipeline than redressing everything after the fact.

Power customization is a big deal because the system wasn't designed to support it. If the could start fresh, it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

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On the subject of Going Rogue, I think it's far too early to judge it as a failure. I'd wait until we have a more comprehensive list of features before passing judgement.

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I'm judging it based on the information they've released and on the survey that spawned the expansion. I'm also judging it on the fact they didn't release any new information or material since, or at E3, which betrays a lack of faith to me.

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discarding those people in lieu of a sequel would be a mistake.

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Discarding other people because you wont do what it takes to grow your game and keep it competitive with newer games for those people's attention is also a mistake in my opinion.


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Then how can there be improvements made to systems that could and should be improved upon?

The devs have said they can't do a lot of things because of the legacy issues. Any new things you add are just bolted on to a rotting foundation.

Why should we have to keep broken, outdated crap when they can do better with a fresh start? In the case of the AT/power systems, the devs have said there can't be any major overhauls or improvements because of the legacy sytems and how they interact. Add to that a thousand other things players would like: super speeding up walls, power customization, environmental interaction, that also can't happen because they can't break free of the old design and old systems.

If you want improvements to the core systems, you're going to have to cut ties eventually. Five-seven years from launch is a good "eventually" in my opinion. That's a long time for any game's run, but there's this notion for some reasons that MMOs should go on forever. Eventually, they just end up shoveling fluff and snuffing themselves out (unless their developer's name ends in 'izzard').

And how long before they can't drum up support for a sequel even if they wanted to? From what I've seen, this expansion was hard fought, and I don't expect it to do as well as maybe the devs and the publisher hope it will. Now may be the last shot they get to make a sequel happen. I don't think Going Rogue will be able to extend CoX's life another five years and I don't think further expansions are likely either if it doesn't do spectacular, or at least better than CoV numbers.


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Essentially, it boils down to this: there are lots of things that you point out that I'd love to see, but I understand that if I'm likely to see them,

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What that boils down to is the devs are unwilling to do what it takes to deliver on those things that people want. In this case, 'what it takes' would be a sequel.

The devs have said themsevles that their hands are tied by the old systems, and that's why they can't/won't do a lot of things. Yet they wont do what it takes to move on from those systems so they could do those things.

Instead they are milking their five-year-old cash cow dry, stringing players along with fluff and carrots (because they'll never tell players that a feature or change will never happen) instead of doing what it takes to give them what they want and to grow the game and the IP.

They're not growing. They're inbreeding with a pointless expansion pack that's a just cash grab. It's not going to bring in new players by numbers. It's not going to bring back players angry about the same broken crap that never got fixed and will never get fixed. It's not going to deliver on the things people want that newer games offer.

They're just waving a "new city" in front of people in hopes they'll forget long enough to part with the $29.99 or whatever that the two existing cities and the systems they're build on are filled with the same repetative content and outdated, unneeded restrictiions that the new one will be.

They're not doing what's best to serve player's interests and they're not doing what they could to deliver on what people want. Anything new in the expansion could be done in a sequel, with the addition to new, better systems and design principles.


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Now that Hickman has been mentioned, the Hickman will appear as his name has been spoken thrice.

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"Ah yes. The Hickman. There is no finer companion! Just so!"

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Of course Hickman's version of Statesman was less of a dick than other writers managed to accomplish.

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He was likeable in the Web of Arachnos novel, but then he was in full-on-Golden-Age charming-hero mode.



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I think per-AT sets would just be a major source of envy.


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Like there's no envy now for AT-specific things?

I wonder how many players would trade Gauntlet for Criticals or Fury?




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I solo quite a few of the Preatorans as EBs with my tanks and I could care less if it take 5 minutes or 20 when it's over I just took out a villain boss solo that some 8 man teams face plant trying to handle.

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No, you didn't. You took down a watered down EB version that most 8 man teams would steamroll over in a couple seconds and not the AV that spawns for 8 man teams.

Face them as AVs, their true form, and I strongly suspect another outcome.



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