Johnny_Butane

The difference is, I can fire up the original Mario Bros any time I want. My NES doesn't require being connected to a cluster of servers running proprietary software. When this game goes, that's it. You wont be able to dust it off a few years down the road and call some friends over to play a few games over beer.

That and Mario Bros got a sequel, and barring some kind of disaster, they're going to keep making and remaking Mario games. Again, this game is it for CoH. There most likely won't be a sequel, spiritual or otherwise. They simply don't make and support tripple-A MMOs like they used to.



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For a number of reasons. Cottage rule for one. Synapse said something during last week's to the effect that "if we we're doing Fire Blast today, like in CoH 2, there are much more interesting mechanics we could use."

Meaning, the set as it is is stuck the way it is.
Indeed, there are far too many examples of things that could be done better today with what they know now but can't because they can't justify redoing them or because the cottage rule is in play. As another example, Street Justice demonstrates just how far animation has come since Super Strength and Martial Arts were created, yet those sets can't look as good because they wont/can't redesign the sets with new animations and mechanics because of the cottage rule and because they want to sell new sets.

There are a lot of things players desperately want that aren't feasible in CoH but could be in a new game with a new engine and starting with a clean slate. I wish Scrapper combat was exciting and fluid as Arkham City. I wish I could piledrive people off buildings and throw tanks around like in Hulk. That's never going to happen in this game. A sequel at least offers the possibility and hope for something better. You may not want those things, but I'll bet you want something that's not possible in CoH but could be in a CoH 2.

And, face facts: Freedom bought the game some time, but we're still bleeding out. Eventually, players are going to get tired with new hats and variations on weapons sets and mechanics, and the game will only get worse looking and worse playing compared to improving standards as time goes on. Even if Paragon Studios' new game isn't even in the same genre, we're bound to lose some people to it. CoH had a good run, but we have to acknowledge, that in all likelihood, this is it for the IP.

"Every day from this day on is a gift. Use it well"



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The buzz on the Hulk show is bad. Worse than Ultimate Spider-Man (which has actually managed a couple good episodes).

Avengers Assemble is not a continuation of EMH. It's a a complete restart and is supposed to conform better to the movie universe.

In fact the guys at EMH had to rush out a finale episode early and abort the Surtur storyline they had been building up all season. The remaining episodes may not even air in the US. I regret thumbing my nose at EMH when it first premiered; it shaped up quickly and in the end it had a lot of heart.


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The cheque is in the mail.



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And then the next step is to have the game analyze itself...and then we've reached the Singularity.

OMG CoH is Skynet!


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I don't buy that line of thinking. Otherwise, everyone would only ever play the best AT and the best power sets since there is no such thing as perfect balance, and if there is, we sure as shooting don't have it here.

We have ATs and power sets and combos in this game that are perceived as clearly better and ones that are regarded as lame ducks. Yet the lame ducks still get play and people play stuff other than the optimal power set combos with the best synergy.

With a Freeform system, the people who roll Stone/Stone for concept now would be rolling whatever they want for concept and the people who only play Crabs now would still only be playing whatever Franken-Freeform build they deem optimal. Nothing really would change from what we have now in that respect.

And, again I'm reminded of what I suggested before about loosening some of the constraints we have now in the spirit of a more freeform system without tossing the system we have entirely out. Such as making the Epic pools available much earlier and greatly expanding on their number and depth. So a Tanker could pick up some basic gun attacks or a Blaster/Scrapper could build towards something closer to Iron Man (although granted, that's as much about beam and power armor-like attacks not existing as it is Blasters/Scrappers being able to pursue damage mitigation powers/ranged attacks earlier respectively).



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Since you brought it up, I wouldn't mind one bit if T9 VIPs here got "Freeforms" to play with.


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It used to be said that the game was balanced for the 'Heroic' difficulty level. That is, +0x1 IIRC.

At +0x1, I have a hard time believing Scrappers and Brutes are dieing way more than Tankers, especially by the SO levels. And if they are, it's due to the the fact either AT outnumbers Tankers. Or because a majority of people playing Tankers are die hard Tanker enthusiasts who know how to build better and that's coloring the data.


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Pam doesn't grow thorns from her body and fling them and she doesn't use flowers to heal anyone so Thorn Assault and Nature Affinity are out. She's a Plant/Poison Controller. Maybe one could make a case for a Plant/Poison MM if such a set existed.


Honestly, I think ATs are silly period and I can't say my experience is better for them. I recognize they're good for new players and were intended to prevent them from gimping themselves, and there's definitely value in that, but to me they're nothing but a straitjacket that prevents me from realizing an otherwise reasonable concept, like a character with guns and swords, or a character like classic Iron Man. It's made worse by the fact that 8 years in, the devs have done little to create more ATs to fill those gaps aside from ultra concept-specific EATs, and I don't think they have any intention to.


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I've been asking for a 145% increase. That and a new thematic combat mechanic (damage oriented or not) to give Tankers some "flash" and improve their thematic failings would reasonably fix Tankers as far as I'm concerned.

I'm actuallyopposed to giving Tankers a straight damage increase by upping their damage scalar. It's not exactly balanced and frankly, boring and not as thematically suitable as something else.

But we're not even fighting about that, because some people, Arcana among them apparently, don't even nessisarily oppose what I'm asking for.

In other words, we're arguing the "why" more than the "what", and everyone always seems up for a good comic book argument, so I'm glad to oblige.



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Name another AT that gets Plant Control and Poison.


As I've explained numerous times, 0.8 is fine with me. I can even find thematic justification for it. It's the 400% that I take issue with.


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You think (as an example) 486.84 versus 784.5 (or 737) is a "very small" numerical difference?

No wonder you flip when I've asked for 'very small' changes.



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So you attribute CoH's success to its slow and outdated combat? Or would you spin it as "purposeful and relaxed combat"?


Haymaker and KO Blow are just as slow if there's 2 or 20 enemies in front of you.



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In both competitor super MMOs, the enemies take less hits and attack animation times are much lower. This game is practically turn-based with some power sets.

The punch in Martial Arts and Jab in SS take 1.8 and 1.3 seconds, respectively. IRL, I can throw about three jabs in that time period. A 1.7 second haymaker or axe kick would be just laughable from a professional level fighter and super heroes have to be even better than that.


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Except when Scrappers don't die. Then as far as the Scrapper is concerned, his defenses are as good as they need to be.

Because popping purples or or oranges situationally is a lot more viable a play style than keeping a steady stream of reds up to maintain a damage increase. And that's without considering Tankers' low damage caps. Four purples and/or four oranges on a Scrapper or Brute, he's very very unlikely to faceplant in 95% of the content in this game. Take a Tanker to the damage cap with reds, which doesn't take much in some cases, and his damage still isn't fantastic; my Brute that doesn't faceplant puts out more damage than my Tanker does hitting his damage cap.

Scrappers get more from popping survival inspiration because the survival bar for the game just isn't set that high from where they are already, and well built they can be safely above it without inspirations. Comparatively, the Tanker maximum damage bar is set much lower and even at max, it's still nothing to write home about.



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A whole other issue, but if I had my druthers I'd cut the HP of most of the enemies in the game in half and double their damage output(or have more of them spawn, whichever makes more sense for the enemy in question).

But that's more down to the combat in the game being slow and ponderous in general.



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Tanker offense, as it is currently, is just plain inferior to Scrapper offense, regardless of what the enemy is and in any situation. In fact, one could argue in the game they got it backwards, as there are enemies that a Scrapper can defeat because they can overcome the regeneration that a Tanker can not.

Enemies that Scrappers/Brutes can't defeat only because they can't survive but a Tanker can survive and can defeat? Not so much. And saying that's OK because Scrappers and Brutes are allowed to have their cake and eat it to doesn't fly with me. That isn't fair to Tankers and that isn't balanced.


Well, we do. And that doesn't excuse Tankers hitting like little girls. If you're going to create an AT to evoke brick characters, you damn well better do them justice. If you don't care about superhero comics or respect their tropes and conventions, don't make a comicbook superhero MMO. Period.

And "they can't because [insert BS excuses here]" doesn't fly with me either because Scrappers and Brutes reasonably do their comic counterparts way more justice.


It applies to the specific name of minion too. Mooks are just guys in their undershirt with a revolver for crying out loud. I'd expect they should be a fine red mist.



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Poison Ivy, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm.


I disagree. Scrappers and Brutes both emulate Wolverine and the Hulk reasonably well. Much better than Tankers emulate just about anyone except Turtle or Butterball. Why do they deserve to and Tankers don't?


I'm not a fan of the way the GM code works either, but one argument at a time.


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As I said before, I compared Spidey to how Tankers are, not how they were intended to be or how they are supposed to be. It's clear they were supposed to represent heroic bricks. The power sets say so (since there was no Mace or SS for Scrappers from day one). The player base says so, even if some wont admit it, it's in the zeitgeist as evidenced by this: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/02...se-of-tankers/
not to mention all the Inv/SS with flight Tankers running around all the servers.
And the devs said so with their choices of signature NPCs: Both Back Alley Brawler and Statesman are Tankers, and the offesive prowess of both are well above medicore (and calling Tanker offense mediocre when they are dead last of all the melee ATs by a large degree is being generous on my part).

The devs started it. Look at the official description for Scrappers. They pretty much spell out that yes, as far as this game is concerned, damage=fighting ability=ability to defeat bad guys. Since the whole point of being a super heroes is to defeat bad guys, what does that say about Tankers being inept at it? Which is why I call them rodeo clowns and walking decoys, because they aren't good for anything else.

But Batman has blown out Superman's lights on several occasions, which would be an impossibility if he was 20 levels below him. Even old style Void Hunters couldn't do that to Khelds when they're gray.

Now, if you want to argue that Batman used debuffs and that he should really be an AT that is a melee debuffer, which IMO is the treatment Scrappers should have gotten, then I'd agree to that. But that doesn't change the fact that Tankers hit like little girls compared to all the other melee ATs and don't even have decent potential compared to Brutes or Scrappers when they should be powerhouses.

And to go back to my Spidey example, even though he was concerned with protecting others most the the time, he at least was allowed moments of greatness. Like lifting the massive machinery that was pinning him, or shutting down Stark in a 10 second "fight" or going sick house on a villains who threatened his loved ones. Much in the way with Supes and the 'World of Cardboard' speech, Spidey has the power under the hood when he needed it and got to flex it when he wasn't preoccupied with 'tanking'. CoH Tankers, on the other hand, can't 'cut loose' because they don't have anything under the hood, except perhaps a nesting chicken.


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Ben Grimm is a US Air Force boxing champion, can lift over 100 tons, has grappled professionally and has years of street fighting experience. The fact that he still pilots suggests that he has retained most of his agility and reflexes despite his rocky form. He is anything but a poor fighter with low damage.


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But obviously they're not 20 levels above their teammates since they are on the same team as guys like Batman and Hawkeye who manage to keep up just fine and contribute. Also the level shift analogy falls apart because Superman hits harder than Batman regardless if he's punching a Giant Monster or not.

You say that the only thing that matters is what a character can take relative to what they can dish out. Characters with feeble offense and superior defense do not exist in comics for the most part. The few that do are gag characters like Mr. Immortal, Turtle and Emery Schaub. So why are we wasting an AT to represent joke characters when obviously, based on the replies in this thread and others, most people think Tankers are supposed to be heroic bricks, flying or otherwise? If Thor and Superman are Scrappers, why would the devs give Super Strength and Mace to Tankers and NOT Scrappers from day one? Why would they make their Supes signature NPC expy a Tanker?

Tankers are supposed to represent heroic comic bricks, as opposed to savage/villainous bricks that Brutes cover. You know it. I know it. Most people on this forum know it even if they wont admit it. And nothing you say can justify or excuse them being weak rodeo clowns instead of the powerhouses they were clearly intended to be and for failing to do justice to the heroes they evoke but fail to live up to.



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