Iron_Vixen

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since States specifically said the end drop was too harsh, it's pretty obvious that they are working out something else, and that this going live is a mistake or a temporary slide along with the other changes. Especially since if you just make it perma- the penalty does not even happen after first time per zone. You never lose end on subsequent crashes. It was like that on test and it went live like that. Any Rage users reading this thread please realize that if you can afford 3 recharge SOs or have Hasten and can make Rage perma- via that route, you can ignore the Rage crash after the first one per zone, baring being slowed at a bad time. If you cannot then be very careful when you use it, until they fix this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have Hasten 6 slotted and a single recharge SO in Rage and that has me perma and I still dropped 5 times on one mission last night before I hung up the power to wait out the fix.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is odd, since so many have has the same results of the no crash. The only thing I can think of for your situation is some other condition you have occuring that is causing it to make it drop, when it is not for many of us. I do mean another power is making it drop, but that a certain combo of effects is making it check for the drop for you. The devs should have a new test version out soon for us to try. Until then we have to make due.

Since States specifically said the end drop was too harsh, it's pretty obvious that they are working out something else, and that this going live is a mistake or a temporary slide along with the other changes. Especially since if you just make it perma- the penalty does not even happen after first time per zone. You never lose end on subsequent crashes. It was like that on test and it went live like that. Any Rage users reading this thread please realize that if you can afford 3 recharge SOs or have Hasten and can make Rage perma- via that route, you can ignore the Rage crash after the first one per zone, baring being slowed at a bad time. If you cannot then be very careful when you use it, until they fix this.

[ QUOTE ]
The most logical reason it went live as-is is because the patch that contained it also contained MANY other things that affect other powersets, missions, bug fixes, and the like.

It's illogical to hold back a entire patch that impacts the entire CoH player base simply because of one power in one set that affects only a small fraction of players, even within the set.

Whether you agree or not it I think it was the right thing to do, and I do believe if Statesman said it'll change, that it will. But SS tanks are not the only toons out there. Others were entitled to the fixes, and it would have been unfair to make them wait even longer than they already have.

Unfortunately, it's not all about us all the time

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, last I looked all these other changes were still being tested and evaluated. So it was unlikely that this was the case. Otherwise the forums would not have suddenly been under rooutine maintenence 4 days after they underwent rountine maintenence. DA and Stone and Ice defenses were still being tweaked and costs checked, invinc's range defense was back in but apparently was lower then it should be (?). This has all the appearance of an "oops!".

This change going live after Statesman said it was too harsh is bewildering. I believe it was a mistake, but a very disappointing one. If you make it perma- it will kill end the frst time it crashes in a zone, but after that it will not crash. So do not run it all, or make it perma-.

What I believe happened is that a mis-communication happened, and someone was told to not put this live but took it as a "ok, puting it live!" kind of thing. Statesman specifically said Geko was working on something else. If it stays this way I will respec it for something less useless. Maybe Hurl.

All I can say is Woot! Statesman answers!

[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless. At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasn’t getting the desired penalty. We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok let us re-examine this again.

[ QUOTE ]
Many players complained about the stun at the end of Rage because it turned off toggles and left them helpless.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here Statesman acknowledges that a lot of SS Tankers hate the stun, because even with preparation it can hurt you. And sets the tone that he wants to come up with an amenable solution.

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, hardcore players with perma-unstoppable or Unyielding were able to avoid the Stun effect. Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasn’t getting the desired penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the sentence that is both profound and somewhat confusing. First off Perma-Unstoppable is a non-issue since that option is gone. Second, Uy is by no stretch of the imagination a "hardcore" power, it is a lynchpin of the set, if not actually required. I got it later then 8 originally myself but also remember I had slotted Brawl and Sprint back then. I could hardly have been considered "hardcore". This also only mentions Invuln powers and not our elemental Tanker kin. I admit that Invuln/SS is a common Tanker type, but not the only SS user. Casual players were getting stunned and hardcore were not? Uy is a very common power for us so I honestly do not see the difference here since Uy does the same for "Captain Uber" and "Joe Player". If they want an unavoidable penalty for all, it must be palatable for when Rage is needed, not just because we want to use it.

The current test Rage can be fun, but why bother? Rage is not needed when just street-sweeping or soloing. It just reduces the amount of time you are in contact with your foes by defeating them faster. Rage's damage boost is only needed against the very nasty, powerful foes like: Nemesis, Bobcat, Anti-Matter, and their ilk. These fights last too long for it to be a practical aid.

[ QUOTE ]
We're still looking at the issue - so feel free to post your thoughts & ideas!


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the sentence that gives me hope. They seem to want to give us a penalty we cannot avoid, but it must be a practical one! The devs are listening to us, and want us to be able to use this power for when it is going to matter, not just to do 2k damage to that 8 hellion we just had to show off with.

Personally, I feel it's fine. So many SS Tankers either use it sparingly or not at all that it proves that the penalty is not trivial.

We also need to realize that the elemental primaries lack Invuln's passives. Stone has an RPD analog. Ice and Fire have passives for Fire and Ice. But that is all they have! Invuln has RPD, R/el, R/en, and TH. Plus only Invuln has Unstoppable to help use Rage if need be. GA and Hibernate are toggles, and RoTP is not an issue here (well it could be, since you may need it), so they will crash with the end crash and that can be terrible for them.

Ok, let us look at some of the supposed problems with Rage a little. IMO it's fine now, if the penalty was too soft you would not have such division among us as to it's utility. The fact that many SS users do not even use it, or use it so rarely speaks volumes in and of itself. If Rage was an "exploit" (it isn't, Statesman never mentioned that, he mentioned that casual players were not geting protection while "hardcore" players were, although this in itself is somewhat odd considering that Uy is a cornerstone Invuln power) then you would not have so many heated debates as we have seen in the Tanker forum.

The fact that Uy's (unsure of other Tanker primaries here) stun protection exactly matched Rage's stun cannot be a coincidence or an oversight. Prior to this test change, all the devs would had to have done is increase Rage's stun by 1 magnitude and Uy could not have held it. Quite simply you have to pause or be prepared for it as it is now. Back when my build was a joke, I could definately have been considered a "casual" gamer but I found out about UyS myself. "Wow! When I am in stance, I can Rage and not be stunned!" Of course UyS used to be immobile so people TPed or they waited the crash out.

People in many games have long used tactics and combinations to make penalties work. Anyone ever play Magic(TM)? I used to love cards like Lord of the Pit and Demonic Hordes, if you played them well, the problems they caused could be planned for, and could even become strengths.

Now let us say that Statesman no longer wants us to use the tools provided to use Rage often. But instead wants an unavoidable penalty. -100% end is utterly useless and Rage will be dropped by almost all SS Tankers. Why? It turns the power to less then situational. 2 minutes of +80% damage and then total loss of end is fine for street sweeping and solo missions....i.e. when you do not need it! This power is only really needed against big game like: AVs/Monsters/Bosses. You cannot predict how long these fights will last, but my own shortest ever AV battle was 4 minutes. Starting combat and then fighting for awhile and then turning Rage on is not a viable option, since you quite simply cannot predict if the fight will end before the crash and thus cannot reliably use this thing. And for those that think a -100% end is "required" seem to think that a lesser but unavoidable end penalty would not be enough of a penalty? Well now, let us see. I used Rage, so I must be fighting (gasp!) so I am probably running combat toggles and maybe even (horrors!) attacking things! Maybe a -20 end penalty would still be a penalty, since you will have to pay close attention to your end bar? Nah! We always turn Rage on and then stand there till it runs out! But what about teammates buffing you with RA, or AB or whatever? Well that is kind of the point of teaming, teammates cover each other's weaknesses, and losing end is a big one.

In a nutshell: You canot tank if you lose toggles in a fight. Again 2 minutes in some pulls, not pull after pull without breaks, is not long enough. Madame of Mystery AV was well over 15 minutes to go down. Being stunned and losing toggles would be worse then just toggle crash. But toggle crash will be at least 5 seconds before you can get Uy back up, so in the 40+ game this can equate to the same thing anyway, Since so many of our enemies have status effects, the difference is more semantics then actual. SOP is to get the status mobs first but some factions have so many stun mobs that this still could fail miserably. For example:Malta all 3 minions (Sapper, Tac Ops, Op Engs) have at least 1 status effect attack, and although I am sure most of us hit the Sappers first, the other 2 have stun grenades and tasers as well.

Although many of us have come up with alternatives to this thing we have on test, I will re-iterate some of them here:
<ul type="square"> [*]Leave Rage as-is: This is prefered anyway. So many people did not use it at times or even at all anyway that this in itself proves the penalty was not too "soft".[*]Less then complete end-loss: A lesser but significant end penalty would still require you to have end buffs in team or use CP (41+ only though) or lose toggles anyway, since you would be fighting and losing end via attacks and toggle maintenence.[*]Tweak SS and give us Build-Up: Every single other Tanker melee set has Build-Up anyway, simply adjust the set and give us Build-Up. Having only 1 of 7 sets different never seemed right anyway. [*]Other Penalties: Freezing attacks for a short interval, A Post-Rage accuracy and/or damage penalty period, A larger defense loss, and other viable options exist.[/list]
If you want an unavoidable penalty Statesman, it has to be viable for tanking or no one will use Rage for when it is needed and it will become a toy for overkilling mobs we do not need it on. It will not be possible to predict when we can use it to help take out the big foes like AVs/monsters/bosses, so it will be unusable as such.

Hasten, which I avoided will now be far better then Rage. It's only -20 end, and since you can attack faster, I have a feeling you can do at least simliar damage to using Rage over a roughly equivalent time interval. So Hasten would just make you watch your end bar and pace your attacks instead of a guaranteed loss of toggles.

Devs, please listen to the many people posting in this thread. Rage was always a risky power anyway. Many times we just did not use it, now it's just not any good for the nasty fights when you need it. Please re-consider this change and either leave it alone or use some of our suggestions (like tweaking SS and giving us Build-Up).

As an invuln, I have passive resists to all except Psi and Tox. The test Rage crash is bad for me but what about our Fire, Ice, and Stone sisters and brothers? With no toggles they lose a lot more then us, and none of them have Unstoppable either. Fire has Consume but that's a poor show for having an end crash and loss of toggles. Ice and Stone have no end help here I can find in the manual, so unless there have been some changes to them, they are in horrible shape when Rage crashes.

If you felt that tactics and teamwork were undesirable work-arounds and that we require a penalty just to keep up damage-wise, then at least make the penalty palatable for the big nasty battles when we need it.

Just tested it some more. It's atrocious. If you over extend by 1 second by accident you suddenly are toggle-less. The incoming damage shoots up like a rocket, and although TI and CJ are ready for immediate re-activation. Uy and Invinc take too long. I do not even mean trying to push it, I am talking about a simple "oops".

Basically it needs to be re-thought out. It is worthless right now, instead of watching out for stunners for 15 seconds or a 15 second pause if in a group, you have to wait for toggles to come back, re-activate them all, and then re-build your end bar. If for some unknown reason someone thought Rage was too powerful in the SS set, it is now just not going to be useful for bigger battles.

Rage was not truly needed in small solo battles, it just helped. In larger battles especially against Monsters and AVs, you need the damage, especially now with the very large regen rates of the AVs. But this penalty makes it a liability in this atmosphere because it will crash and then your toggles will. Suddenly, that AV is doing enormous damage to you and you are desperately trying to stay alive for your team.

Why would you want to make a power that increases your damage useful for when you do not need it, and useless for when you do? This change is not good and needs to be re-examined.

Overall _Ilr_'s post was good and I had to clip the best part here:

[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically, Most powers that Crsh SHOULD be able to drop your health, or your Endurance to Crap. Or even Disorient you. And giving some kind of visual indicator that your teammates and you will see is the first major step required. If not for all the other powers, then atleast for Rage.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Rage stun was really something I felt we could live with. A severe but not all-encompassing end drop would work. The total end drop is just not going to work. 20 end? 30 end? Some kind of imminent toggle drop warning would be very nice as _Ilr_ pointed out. If you click the arrow on your team window, you will see all of the team member's buffs. Having Rage (and others? MoG? Elude?) stick out to the eye and maybe the ears would be a big help to the team.

Very nice Statesman! It's good to see this. I solo a lot, I got tired of my multi-hour LFG session in EQ. The solo-friendly environment of CoH is a huge factor. The new bosses are not hard for me as a Tanker, and I am sure Scrappers are doing well too, but Blasters/Controllers/Defenders could have a hard time from what I have seen. Teaming has merits, but sometimes you cannot or do not want ot team and CoH allows for both, which is a very positive aspect of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasn’t getting the desired penalty. !

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, Unyielding (Stance) is not a casual/hardcore thing, that is an Invulnerability thing. I am surprised this was worded that way: Invulnerability is not the only primary powerset for Tankers.
Presumably Earth Tanks could gain the same benefit. However, Earth tanks have to hold still while Rooted, whereas the now "useless" Inv tanks can at least move around. Raging while Rooted cannot possibly be as overpowering as U(S) and Rage.

Fire/SS tanks, with the weakest defense, get hosed the worst by Rage:
<ul type="square">[*]Rage turns off toggles[*]Rage doesn't work with fire powers[*]Even Fiery Embrace doesn't work with certain fire powers.[*]No Build Up[/list]
P.S. Easiest solution is to get rid of self-stun. That's horrible.
maybe make it a self slow: slow recharge, slow END recovery, slow Health recovery, slow movement, etc.

(My other account has a 39 fire/SS tank)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an important point too. States specifically said Uy, but not all */SS Tankers are invuln/SS Tankers. I think the elemental primaries will be hurt even worse by this change on test. If Rage needs re-evaluation, making the penalty so severe as rendering it useless is not the answer.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the total endurance drain is actually a bit more manageable, even though its still pretty nasty.

[/ QUOTE ]
In my tests I did Volante, this end drop to 0 is far worse then the stun we have on live. With the stun you could stay un-stunned with patience or buffs. On test you loose all toggles and are in deep doo-doo if in battle. Rage is not that overpowering anyway, so it does not need a hefty penalty.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm amused by the idea that anybody who takes Unyielding is now officially considered a "hardcore player" by the dev team.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uy is basically mandatory. It has status protection and resists, these are key to tanking. Also only Uy and Unstop have any toxic resist at all for Invuln. I know all Tanker primaries have some status protection as well. Uy will definately be picked up the majority of casual and "hardcore" gamers alike. It is too useful to ignore.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus the casual player was getting penalized and hardcore player wasn’t getting the desired penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem again. Uy will prevent the stun from harming you unless you get another stun. This would often require a teammate's buff or, if soloing, you would have to take breaks. At 46 there are so many status mobs Rage is hard to use, but also rewarding if you are willing to accept it's risks. You cannot even get it till 28 anyway. So by then the casual gamer will have learned a lot about status protection and how to adjust their tactics.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that damage dealing is not a tank's job in a group, or at least not its primary one. But this seems to reduce the SS tank to being solely a meatshield.

And playing a walking wall just isn't much fun, especially considering the comics we're trying to emulate.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is true but also I would like to elaborate more on this as well. Tankers are Defense primary but Offense Secondary. Pretending we are mobile pillboxes is not going to work. It is fun to be surrounded and getting hit and not dying, while we dish out tolerable if not stellar damage, but it is not fun standing there taunting. Do not forget that punch-voke is more effective based on the damage we do. So Rage enhances the punch-voke effect. Therefore it is desirable not only for soloing but also in teams.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my point is this... I have never heard any complaints that Super-Strength with Rage was overpowered. Even with Rage, SS tanks don't even approach scrappers in terms of damage output. Our damage is okay, but nobody, including other tank builds, ever seemed to have an issue with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never had any teammate complain about my damage being too high or that Rage was too powerful, especially after all the "Vixen are you drinking on the job again?" jokes from Rage stuns. Rage does need a penalty since it's benefit is much better then Build-Up's but not losing all end. That is too much and defeats the purpose of the change as Statesman stated he wants to let us keep toggles up after it falls. 0 end = 0 toggles.

Statesman, many SS Tankers dealt with the Rage stun or quite simply did not use it. Currently the test version is unplayable, it drops end to 0 and this of course kills all our toggles. Rage used to have the possibility to drop toggles if you got stunned during the Rage stun simply because it was such a high magnitude stun. Now it is guarenteed to drop toggles and has on every test I and many others ran.

Uy is not a "hard-core" power it is one of the critical invuln tools. Many of us felt the Rage stun maxxed out Uy on purpose. Ergo that if you got stunned one more time on top of the Rage drop you were in trouble and that is a major dividing issue in the SS camp. We have "I hate Rage because of the stun" and "I love Rage and deal with the stun". Possible solutions to the stun if you feel like removing it?

<ul type="square"> [*]Tweak SS's damage, delay, and animation time to fit with other Tanker secondaries and change it to standard Build-Up. [*]Keep an end penalty but not 100% end penalty, this is far worse then the stun effect. Perhaps -20 end or some other large but not suicidal figure. [*]Keep a slightly less severe stun effect, or quite frankly leave it as is. The stun is manageable now. Every Tanker primary has some kind of stun protection, and teammates can also help here. Fire/SS may need to have increased stun protection I am seeing on forums right now however.[/list]Rage is a fun high risk/high gain power as it is now. It has killed me but -100% end is far too severe and will kill "Joe Gamer" far more then the stun. Most Tankers strive to get status protection early (like Uy) and should.

The current test Rage is not even at all viable. -100% end is tantamount to a death sentence. Losing all toggles from trying to use the SS verison of Build-Up is not an option. Rage needs to be tweaked into something remotely useful (like leaving it alone in the first place) or just tweak SS and give us Build-Up.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[On learning patience - Boot to the head] "Yeah.. patience.. how long is that going to take?!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Said Ed Grubberman.

[/ QUOTE ]
"The best defense is a good offense. You know said that? Mel the cook on Alice."

I would like to throw in my thanks too. The I3 changes to my favorite set:Invuln looked bad until I used my banked respec and tried them. And now I can tank better then ever. This game is fun, the combat is incredible, the storys fun to read and participate in. Thanks for making my personal favorite mmorpg. Now if they would fix those off camera angles that all my max height girls have since I3 came out...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, Thursday is The Day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I hope not. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.

[/Arthur Dent]

[/ QUOTE ]
lol And then the Vogons destroy the Earth to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

Yes definately! Let our Stone sisters and brothers move too darnit! No one should be rooted by their own defense.

Sponsored by Tankers that like to fight and move at the same time.