Inquizitor

Gyeh. Going From checking things out on STO to Checking things out here is startling.

My God... the lack of information...

*Runs back to the Devs who love him.*

How do I set this up for classic view? I liked the way it used to look. I find this one harder to read.

AS far as Masterminds go. They make extremely useful tank mages. I lead charges guaranteeing the guard part of bodyguard will activate and let the pulse lasers fly. I then Drop traps at my leisure and let off a pulse rifle blast now and again for a piece of burst damage on an enemy that is low. Then as teh fight winds down I can pull out of bodyguard mode and start focusing if I want.

With a tank it is different. You don't have the punch a MM has even while they are in bodyguard mode. However you also don't have to worry about as much. There are a few instances but it has ben my experience wiht MAstermidns that when things start to go wrong they go wrong very quickly.

Of course with a defence based tank sometimes you can just get a really bad set of rolls...

Blaster 3
Controller 3
Scrapper 4
Tank 4
Defender 1
PB 1
WS 0
Mastermind 4
Brute 5
Dominator 2
Stalker 2
Corrupter 4
Crab Spider 1
Widow 1

A Brute, tank, and Scrapper are on the chopping blocks. Whenever I get inspired to make new characters.

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I, personally, really like that idea.

It fits with the whole "World of Cardboard" approach that most of the 'tankers' (and I use that term loosely) in the Comic books have.

Against normal thugs they're not going to unleash their full might, I mean you don't see Superman punching that bank robber as hard as he could, he'd liquify the poor guy if he did.

However against certain he will just let loose, "show you how powerful he really is" and unleash his full might against someone he knows that can take it, in CoH case, this would be AVs.

Brutes are about smashing their way through people, battering them aside and racing from one group to the next, Tankers would be about taking out those tough targets, perhaps, with AVs/Signature Heroes, have them even surpass Brute/Scrapper damage at the very high end of it but only if the fight lasts a while, (say longer than 3-4 minutes)

Eh it's just a random thought from a random person, don't look at me for balancing issues

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We talk about ideas like this all the time in the Tanker forum. We talk and talk and debate and deal with trolls and talk and debate and nothing ever happens and no progress is ever made because a red name never comes in and validates the discussion or says "yeah, we'll think about this".

It's massively frustrating for all parties involved and the fact it's gone on as long as it has (even before Jack promised Tankers Fury and even after they got a damage scale increase instead) is a joke at this point.


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You are aware that Jack doesn't work for Paragon Studios quiaff? You cannot hold the current dev team responsible for what Jack may or may not have said. Jack said alot of things. Some would say he said too many things.

If ideas are meeting with general approval then it can be submitted ot teh devs. Any change needs to pass teh BS test though. I think alot of people would like to see Tanks get some love but nobody wants to see tanks become the new godmode.

I've really not followed these dieas very closely. I know how my experience playing Tanks is and I know how tank like characters are generally portrayed in comics. From waht I understand you have been championing change for tankers. Thats all well and good It's something you obviously care about. I would agree Tanks need something.

However, I would submit to you that whatever it is you have been peddleing for, as Rachel stated, 2 and a half years isn't flying with people. You may want to step back and look at a differnt change or approach. Noone, includeing me, is going to agree to a blanket Damage increase for Tanks. Regardless of what Jack said They don't need the Brutes Version of Fury. That WOULD be overpowering and would replace Scrappers completely as well as Brutes.

Even in this modified Fury Idea you have to be careful. I didn't mention any numbers because I'm really not good at making those up. All I have is a general idea. Weather or not it would work needs to be debated. We have been discussing this topic in tehi thread is why I posted it here. I think alot of these discussions you are mentionign is just getting buried. Bring it out for others to see. Changes to Tanks like this is important to everyone.

It was me who made refernce ot the Thing and it was an incomplete thought. What you describe the thing doing is pretty much what I was going to say. The reason I said he isn't all that tough is he generally doesn't want to hurt anyone. He tries to treat things with kid gloves until he HAS to start flexing his muscles.

Also in comparison to characters like Superman and The Incredible hulk I don't concider him uber strong. He is just Uber stong compared to Captain Nomraleverydayman.

A Tank should be ABLe to dish ou tthe damge when it's crunch time but Tanks, as heros, pull their punches. They want to protect. Superman doesn't rip start Tossing Semi trucks at purse snatchers just because he can. It takes a serious threat...


You know. Maybe we could play around with a modification of the Fury system here. The longer a fight goes on the more "fury" he builds up. It would only build over time as the tank is actually hit and delviers punches. It builds very slowly, drains quickly, but can't drain if you've attacked or been hit recently, let us say 2-5 seconds. This way they can't really keep their "fury" built up between battels but long drawn out fights will make them want to "end the fight before more people get hurt"

By that definition. Petless masterminds particularly petless/traps. I've heard horror stories about fire tanks...hmm. You hear horror stories about Electric armor Stalkers although a friend of mine plays one no trouble *shrug* hmm.

Gard to say. Petess masterminds is more of a playstyle choice than a powerset. I could just as easily say play wiht only Pool power form level 6 on. but of all the pwoersets in the game if you were willing to work with them. some are pretty average but they all work.

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So then you're all basically saying the IS no weak combo, just slow ones? That's not what I wanted to hear. I wanted WEAK.

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Define weak then. Someone mentioned Grav/Psi Dominators. I have one. I ghave a hard time palying him. Nto because he is weak per se but he adds nothing to a team and doesn't really solo with any speed. I've not tried him with the recent dom changes though. Last time I played him he was REALLY good at juggling an enemy. Lift- propel- tpfoe- mind probe- tk thrust- crush- lift rinse repeat. It was funny for a while but not really the most effective thing in a team situation.

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One blaster, and a defender and I was a scrapper.

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What flavor of Defender?

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That's funny, I just ran a Manticore TF the other day that was over half tankers, and we had no issues, the team ran just fine...

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Yeah. I never said a team of tanks couldn't succeed at anything. I would just prefer to watch paint dry is all. I hope you had blasters for the other 4 at least.

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Personally, I'm a big fan of dual-speccing (I also never use IOs beyond a proc or two here or there)

I've got a Tri-Form Dual-Speeced PB. The Dwarf build still has Nova in it, but it's unslotted Nova. While the Nova build has Dwarf, just unslotted.

Both share the similarity of the human-side of the build being fairly well rounded, however. =-3

-Rachel-

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I thought about dual speccing my PB but I never play her. She is still level 12. Which is odd because ever since Khelds were introduced I saved that character slot for trhe specific purpose of making a khed. A year ago I fianlly grinded Zambo through the 40's and gained the ability to do it. Now she just holds the spot on the roster as a kheldian.


My main complaint with her is I HATE the whine in the sound effects for her powers. Yeah I cold turn sounds off. I don't like to.

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Do what I do! Dual-spec your second build to DROP Taunt and shift focus from defenses to damages. If a second tnak hits the team ask if he wants to play tank. Then swap to damage spec. -IF- he goes down, you're still better suited for Aggro and Damage sponging than the scrapper.

-Rachel-

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I dunno about that. Inquizitor can tank better than most Tanks I know. Unless he is fighting CoT ghosts. ...stupid ghosts.

I never got into the whole dual build thing. I figure if I need to change what I'm doing that drastically I can just log in someone else.

Do you want to know what my main problem wiht a tanker is? It's not really the subpar damage. I pay tanks. I really enjoy my Ice/Ice tank. What I hate about Tanks is they are the ONLY At that adds nothing if you bring in a second one. I hate having a second tank on a team. Especially if I'm playing a tank. Brutes and Scrappers significantly add to a teams damage output. A tank though....A tank only does one thing. It does that one thing really well and doesn't need help with it. Well specced aside. You can spec AT's to do about anything anymore. Especially with IO's.

Tanks need something else they can contribute. Even if it means losing some of their aggro managment. a Team of Brutes is fun. A Team of corrupters is fun. a Team of Masterminds is chaotic but fun. a Team of Tanks is...like watching water erode a stone.

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Just because the game sets you up with some basic outlines doesnt mean you have to follow "the rules"...

Be the character you want to be. Their is NO guideline.

After saying that, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be hung up on the issue...

/sigh

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Yes. A well Specced Defender can take out an AV. Yes. An Ill/Rad troller can drop AVs like nothing.

That's not what the discussion is about at this point.

-Rachel-

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What can a well speced Tanker do?

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The problem with it on Defenders is it doesn't help in most cases.

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the problem with it on defenders is that it rewards them for failing at their task.

the same logic applies to tanks.

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Which is more useful for pulling a team back if you are "failing" at your task. endurance reduction in a playerbase obsessed with never having them to begin with or more damage?

Task. That right there is the whole problem with tanks. A defenders "task" is up to the player.

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TBH, some of you are hung up to much on the word... and what the game wants you to think of it as.

I can Tank efficiently on a *Controller* Those are the REAL SteamRollerTankn'Spankers

When you box yourself in to one way of thinking...

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This is why I prefer to have controllers over tanks. Not only do they provide superior control but they also buff and actually end up doing superior damage in some cases.

Some of the control heave Blasters can "tank" in their way. same with Scrappers and defenders. This is why I call a tanker a relic. It is better than the other classes at it's one trick but its a trick noone usually needs. It's nice. Don't get me wrong. but..eh.

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200% and No brute is desperately trying to stay alive. You are referencing a Blaster. For solo play a Brute's defence is much like a Scrappers. Any Scrapers here have issues staying alive while solo?

In group play they will start seeing buffs which gives them tanker values. Any tankers here have trouble staying alive in groups? Any brutes in here have trouble building fury in groups when you are the primary target?

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Are you referring to their CAP or to the amount that they'll normally have whilst solo and not on a tricked out build with IOs?

I was thinking the latter.

A Brute can survive as well as a scrapper, and dish out similar damage (on average) But it doesn't have the same level of defenses a tanker does.

Ultimately the question I have for you is this:

What can you do to the tanker class that will make it more interesting for you and Johnny to play WITHOUT turning it into a Brute, a Scrapper, or a "Perfect" character?

And when I say "Perfect" character I'm not referring to perfect for it's role, or concept. I mean to say a Tankmage with abject pwnage, no weaknesses or shortcomings, and balanced against the other archetypes to avoid a mass migration to the new tanker AT.

Come up with that and we'll talk about how to make it work in City of Heroes.
-Rachel-

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Dunno. Johnny seems to want to combine the tank and Scrapper classes. That is not what I want. MY problem with the tank it is an oddball. It doesn't really belong anywhere as is. It is a relic from a time when people thought the holy trinity was the only way to do things.

There are various ideas floating around. To expand on the one I mentioned a little while ago. a Vigilance type system As people take damage around you your damage increases.

Possibly add in some sort of "domiantion" system where a Tank can activate the ability and substantial +dam and +rech and a full end bar for a time at the cost of -res and -def

Additionally get rid of the 400% cap on melee damage for Tanks. If Brutes can get buffed to Tanker defence a Tank should have the opportunity to have their damage likewise boosted.

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175% bonus damage is about all you'll ever see out of Fury in most situations. 185% facing an AV spamming alot of fast activating attacks, with 200% being the highly theoretical maximum. Brutes have a relative damage scale of .75 with a 850% cap, while Tankers have a .85 base with a 400% cap.

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What are the scrappers and stalker numbers, Out of curiosity

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I think If they had a system like Vigilence for tanks it would help. Instead of end reduction though have the tank gain damage strength as his team takes damage.

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I thought the whole idea of 'the tank' was to hold aggro and keep their teammates from eating damage?

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The idea of 'the tank' is that it's a tough machine that prowls around the battlefield. It's extremely hard to bring down and it's weaponry is devastating.

CoH Tankers aren't really that devastating compared to the other melee ATs.


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No. Tanks are not supposed to roam around being engines of destruction. That is a Brutes job.

200% and No brute is desperately trying to stay alive. You are referencing a Blaster. For solo play a Brute's defence is much like a Scrappers. Any Scrapers here have issues staying alive while solo?

In group play they will start seeing buffs which gives them tanker values. Any tankers here have trouble staying alive in groups? Any brutes in here have trouble building fury in groups when you are the primary target?

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I thought that was the point of a defender as well.

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and thus we come to the underlying thematic dissonance of the mechanic and why a lot of folk don't like it.

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The problem with it on Defenders is it doesn't help in most cases. Yeah its nice to have an endurance break. UI dont know any defenders who has end problems regardless plus some sets are more proactive than reactive. In my hypothetical change for tanks +dam is always useful. plus it helps deliver the best mitigation of all in a defeated opponent.

It is thematic for a tank to get royally pissed when people he wants to protect comes under attack.

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I think If they had a system like Vigilence for tanks it would help. Instead of end reduction though have the tank gain damage strength as his team takes damage.

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I thought the whole idea of 'the tank' was to hold aggro and keep their teammates from eating damage?

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I thought that was the point of a defender as well. The reasoning behind it appears to be that when the team needs them the most they can step up. In my hypothetical suggestion for tanks. They would be able to step up and do more damage in order to help expedite delivery of the best mitigation type of all.

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Please, by all means, enlighten me as to a method to ensure all archetypes are well-played if a single archetype has as much or more damage than a scrapper and all the survivability of a tanker. How much of a buff would you have to give the other archetypes AND the villains to keep the game both fair and challenging? You can't? How shocking!

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Brute defined. Next question.

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Are you grossly ignorant of the survivability differences between tankers and brutes, or do you just want people to think you are?

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My Bad. I know Brutes are more survivable than tanks. They both have the same caps but thee Brute can kill things alot quicker and easier which is the ultimate form of mitigation.

Brute =Unstoppable force
Tank = Immovable object.

I know which of those two sounds more fun.