Innigo

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And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.

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Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Health: 3 slots are better than 2
Integration: could do with an end redux
Instant heal: omg this SO need 2 extra recharge redux
Recontruction & Dull pain: 3 recharge redux ftw

Take the slots from the 15 you've dedicated to your epics.

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well there were superior villian numbers, and it was going ok, then a couple of heroes went down, then the remaining ones were just over whelmed, dnt matter how good u are, the odds are against u when its 10 on 1

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Even so, these things take a pounding and that takes time. When you say superior numbers, what were the actual numbers involved?

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i participated in a Ootcs base raid, the first 10 min belonged to the heroes and we were camping the spawn point, but the second 10 min of the raid the villians managed to gain the upper hand and started spawning the hero spawn point.

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Yeah, but did you manage to take down 5 anchors in the time allowed?

My SG, which is spread over several SGs, including one villain SG has been doing base raids for the past few weeks to see how this thing works. My conclusions seem to be as follows.

Anchors are WAAAY to tough. 8000hps and about 80% resistance mean they really take some beating, even when there's a half dozen of you pounding at it, which of course you can't do for long before the defenders turn up.

Spawning at the same point seems to quickly result in a gank-fest, with the spawn point wuickly becomming covered with caltrops, tripmines, ice patches, whatever to the point where the invaders get splattered over the funiture within seconds.
Honestly, from my point of view it looks like there's no way for the invaders to win if the numbers are vaguely equal. Anyone else finding this? Or are we just doing something wrong?

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Who says you are not going to use granite , this is more why stuck being a granite , when there is more to offer in the stone armour set then granite.

Seriously if you dont understand that why are you playing a stone armour set.

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I personally would have put the question around the other way; if you're not using granite then why are you playing the stone armour set? The def and res of inv and ice is better and they get mez protection (as does fire) without the movement penalty of rooted.

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Most people dont even understand the power of regen ,maybe shannon wants to mathematically calculate how much 275% regen with the health of a tanker is worth , compared to a ice tanker . especially when you are getting hit !!

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I'm a big fan of base regen rates. My regen scrapper had 9 health enhs in fast healing, health and integration. But it's always much better to not get hit, failing that, get hit and mitigate most of the damage. Getting hit and regening it comes third. So i'd say the regen rate is of limited use on a tank, but perhaps is an important point for a brute.

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why take a stone tanker if you're not going to use granite armor. might as well make a ice tanker and have more defense, or a invulnur have more dfenese/resistance

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This is a very good question. The only reason I can think of is if you're up against a psionic heavy foe and you've got minerals. OR if you're in a low-ish mish where granite is just overkill. Apart from those situations, granite ftw

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Nope its simply the speed boost that provides the god factor mode .

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Why, coz he can run into the mobs and find the spot where's going to stand still faster? I reckon the spamming taunts, the endless endurance and almost perma-available aoes and pbaoes all combine to be worth a lot more than being able to run around a room, or to the next spawn a bit quicker.

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I dont know what you want ?? maybe i should take some of your example in your last couple of posts , cause its interesting how you describe one section of something .
Then next write your own answer to the previous statement.

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This is barely comprehensible, but the answer to what I want was clear stated. I want an answer to the question you just avoided. Why did you avoid the question? It was an easy one, and multiple choice too, shouldn't have been too taxing, yet here I am, still without an answer. How interesting. But it's OK, I never expected one anyway

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- recharg only takes HASTEN to overcome !!!
gee thats 1 power in 1 powerpool with 3 slots .

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PLUS how many slots to end reduction?!? Stone has some very end greedy powers and granite isn't free, and neither is mudpots. As opposed to the -spd, which, despite your insistence only really take 2 slots out of the rest of the build. Yup, you heard me, 2 slots is ALL the -spd needs.
Let me explain.

You're taking fitness anyway so you've got to take either swift or hurdle, so the swift selection can be taken out of the -spd column. However, you do have to three slot it, so that's two slots that stay in the -spd column.
Now, teleport. Well, you're going to have to pick a travel power anyway and one end redux in teleport is plenty, so no actual slots have to be dedicated to the travel power. True, stone forces you into one travel power, but it doesn't represent a sacrifice in terms of your other powers.

Now lets consider your hasten solution. Of course, thanks to the -rcharge it's not actually going to be up that often. Someone else can do the maths but I;d guess it'll be up somewhere like 1/3rd to 1/4 the time and when it's up it creates its own end problem (assuming you want to actually benefit fully from it). So you're talking at least three, perhaps even fours slots in end redux in your bigger attacks and if you don't slot recharge redux as well then you're really going to suffer when hasten is down, so there's a similar amount of slots in recharge redux (although I wouldn't necessarily put them in the -rchrge column as you need them even when out of granite).
All of this versus 2 extra slots dedicated to swift.

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Here is what i said if you try to get things out of context please quote the whole thing . not a small part and definetly not try to rephrase it in your own meaning .

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LOL, you actually think your "context" changes something don't you. To paraphrase the bit you quoted; A stone tank is uber but without a kineticist is a drag to play.

Not: no other part of the quote establishes a "context", and even the uber part is irrelevent. So, since you don't seem to know what you're saying yourself anymore, lets ask the question.

Is a stone tank a drag to play if there's no kinetics support?

A yes/no answer will suffice.

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So shall we continue this flaming , or get back to serious topic ??

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A few tetchy remarks don't count as flaming.

If we'd stuck to the original point of the dispute even those could haven avoided. So lets spell it out;

Innigo;
-spd of rooted/granite is easier to overcome/adjust to than the -rchrge of granite.

Lonelyshade
-spd is the biggest handicap of the stone set

That's how it seems to me, or are you going to accuse me of taking you out of context again?

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I'm not saying they're all as good, to be that, they'd have to be identical. I'm saying that while stone armor has it's sides, it is not as good in accomplishing the primary role of the brute than other secondaries in most situations.

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This is a reasonable statement, but there seems to be some discord as to the primary nature of a brute. Would you care to give us your outline of a brute's function. I may help clarify your position.

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ITS BLUE !!!!

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I'm so glad you're here :P

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Mobs reaction time is instant when you are entering the aggro range , not the alert range .

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And yet there's a delay. Even when I teleport in I don't get attacked instantly. They have to turn to me, draw weapons and THEN attack. It doesn't happen instantly and that's what I meant by reaction time. It creates a window, where I prior to tp I could run and throw on rooted at the last moment with no risk.

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Maybe you haven´t tanked enough at low levels
Guess that must have been the reason to not having a rock plummet you out of the way .

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What does "enough" mean in this context? Surely by tanking my way through the low lvls to the high lvls i've done, by definition "enough"?!?

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Really :P say that again when you tested it out with some other tanker doing more damage then you !!!!
AH never played with a other tanker in your radius ???

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True, but pure hair splitting and not relevent to the discussion which was squishies pulling aggro from tanks because of low damage. If another tanks pulls agro of you it means you're both standing close to each, so all should be well.

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Hurray somebody who again is ignorant immobilised can´t be knocked back

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Sorry, but yes they can. I'd check you facts before you start accusing other people of ignorance. And anyway, what has this got to do with anything?

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unlike you i dont go making post up like the one before and twisting things out of contest .

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-spd isn´t a handicap , then why did you take 3 slotted swift

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So by that logic all attacks are handicapped because they need slotted with 3 dmgs?

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, and teleport ?

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I never suggested -spd wasn't something that DIDN'T need to be adapted to (so much for not twisting words, pfft).

In fact, the core of my argument is, and always has been as follows;

The -spd of rooted and/or granite armour is easier to compensate for than the -recharge.

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but infact you try to find way arounds it thats totally not creative at all.

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Nah, if they weren't creative, you'd have thought of them

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So infact you contradict your own statement , so more nasty words for it ??

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You appear to heading into delusional territory. Having scanned back over my posts I'm not seeing any obvious contradictions on my part. Your posts on the other hand...

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NoT what i said , but if you want to know what i would have said is kinetic trollers make stone like a god , if you dont have kinetic trollers , the team has to pay for you being a lump and adapt .

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Here's what you actually said. "But without the proper support a kinetic , the stone armour is like a drag to play." I paraphrased, but seems fairly accurate.

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So not much actual experiance of playing them then, an instant lvl 40 would not give you the feel of them growing over time,

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I'm afraid I'm compelled to agree, but even more than that.

Take Lonelyshade who's on telling us that Stones need a kinetics troller are their back to avoid feeling like a lump.
In 42 lvls I think I've teamed with a kinetics troller less than a half a dozen times, so I've had to adapt to their absence rather than depending on their presence.
Consequently, my stone tank is fairly quick on his feet and can tp with a fair lvl of proficiency. The presence of a kinetics troller is a bonus I'm not fully sure how to exploit MORE than his absence being a handicap I'm not sure how to adapt to.

Perhaps it's a subtlty of the game impacting on builds and strategies that many people don't appreciate.

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Aggroing 3 mobs depend on what you want to do herd ?
Aggroing 3 mobs depend on how densely they are packed in outdoor missions .
Aggroing 3 mobs cause somebody else auto shoots something thats dead auto target the next one ..
Happens quite often especially at higher levels .

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Feel free to tell me the sky's blue next.

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If you have used rooted this way , you would have notice it take a while before the mezz to activate while between speeding time and activation time there is a 0.5 second no status protection , in that 0.5 sec a sapper or anything else that has a mezz effect can have you nailed , a small lag issue and you are a dead tanker .

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And yet, it never happened. No mez, no death due to lag issues despite doing it dozens of times. It take nearly 3 seconds for the -spd effects of rooted to fully kick in, if I'm mez vulnerable for the first 1/2 second of that it's obviously a non-issue.
Incidentally. Can you tell me mob reaction time. I'll bet it's longer than 0.5 seconds.

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Unfortunatly if you have found out damage is very important to a tanker , especially after the taunt effect nerfs , higher damage means simply higher amount of aggro hold

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Drivel. Gauntlet works irrespective of the damage numbers.

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For example after a NUKED , a firesword circle with build up will hold everything thats NUKED in place.

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After inferno (which has no knockback effects) mudpots will hold everything in place. Damage numbers for agro (when discussing a tank) are irrelevent.

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Why you think most stone dont hold aggro damage is part of situations nowadays to hold the attention , not fully slotted attacks with damage or TAUNT , means as good as useless punchvoke especially fighting +3 or higher.

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What are you talking about? My stone tank has ZERO problems holding agro providing the mobs are in range of mudpots ot my pbaoes - one of which does ZERO dmg btw. It's when stuff gets knocked away, out of range of mudpots that the problems start.

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That all weakness are easily overcome ???
Pardon if you can´t even remember your own post !!
Why ask somebody else to point it out for you .

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I remember my own posts well, which is why I know I never "screamed" nerf at any point. You're just talking [censored]. That much is evident now. It's called a strawman argument. Where you manufacture an argument for someone else and argue against that rather than the point they're actually making. The point, in my case is that the -recharge (of granite) is a MUCH bigger issue than the -spd. I'm beginning to think that either you've never played a stone tank to any decent lvl or you simply weren't very good with it.

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Stone armour has more flexibility then just Granite .
So in 42 levels you are saying you haven´t learned much about the whole stone armour set other then granite ??

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Obviously not, since granite didn't kick in till lvl32. Why do I have to tell you this? So for 32 lvls there was no granite. And in that time I found solutions to problems you seem to think were insurmountable. So who know what best now?
Play your tank whatever way you want, but don't come on here spouting that the -spd is a gigantic handicap that's the bane of the stone set and that without a kinetics troller at your back you're going to be pish, coz it's blatantly [censored].

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Wait you are saying they all come to you ?? even after a NOVA who scatters them beyond your 8 ft arc in open field ?
Honestly its not that i dont believe you , its that its highly unlikely in a 8 man team where attacks after a attack happens.

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Of course its very unlikely, but in a spawn of say, a dozen, the rest of the team don't attack them all after they've been scattered - hence prioritising the mobs that are getting attacked for taunt. It's all very situational, but generally I get 2/3rd of them back around me, with the overspill not being too much of a drama for the rest of the team. This is only for a single spawn right enough.

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Having no rooted on in 8 man team while you move in , one simple hold knockback immo , sets you back a long way .

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That what TP is for. Of course that comes with risks. More than once I've tp'd past the first spawn and into the one directly behind. In the pre-granite days this was a heart-stopping moment, but that was a rare event.

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So you are saying as single tanker in a 8 man team , you willing to risk that ?

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Never needed to. The interesting thing about rooted is the way it slows you down. Try it; run with sprint on and then hit rooted and see how far you get before you're fully slowed. It's not *very* far, but certainly far enough to go from a doorway to the centre of a room. And, as mentioned above you only need to do this for six lvls and then tp takes over.

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You really want to test that go ahead challenge a people to a run duel , he only have to have sprint on ....

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Point is, in a fight you generally don't have to run very far and the lvl window where you're *really* slow if fairly narrow.

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Well in this case your drawback of 30% damage could have been 50% less damage

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I'm a tank. Damage is a secondary concern to aggro management.

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,in this case you dont even need TP a provoke would do the same , so in this case you are static.

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I'm sorry, I don't understand. Why am I static?

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honestly the reason that granite makes superior tanks compared to others is that they can stand up to 3 mobs .
Still be kicking and damaging stuff , so if you want to only fight one mob , you might as well have taken another tanker and do beter in it .p

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Only a fool would go charging in an agro 3 mobs at the same time with a team he's not familiar with. With an eight man team 3 mobs will take you OVER the agro cap, you're looking at a lot of overspill.

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A granite is the rock , cause it can easily handle 3 mobs , sure it can´t hold the attention of 3 mobs , but that also depend on creativity of the playere

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Given the scenario I descirbed if you'd been trying to aggro three mobs and the nrg blaster scatters them, then you're looking at a team wipe (depending on team composition of course). Hence why it's not wise to do it with an unfamiliar team. Hell, with the average PuG it's hard enough to get people to back up so I can herd/pull and NOT attack until I'm in position.

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But seriously do you have a granite form yet ?
And did you try it before screaming nerf , or did you do your calculations from the planner and stats ?

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Can you point to the bit where I called (let alone screamed) for a nerf? Coz I certainly don't remember doing it. Oh, and RIGHT at the start of my last post I told you; lvl42 Stone tank, Granite for the last 10 lvls.

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Look Innigo if you think movement isn´t a big deal make a stone tanker only needs level 8 to see what the movement is like with rooted , thats the speed you will be crawling with granit and rooted on.

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Mine is 42nd lvl atm. I almost *never* have granite and rooted on at the same time except when I'm swamped with mobs and not going anywhere coz they've all come to me.
In the early days I had rooted slotted with recharge redux so I could pop it off and then on again quickly. By lvl12 and my 1st round of DOs I had swift 3 slotted. But you're right between lvls 8 and 12 movement was a real pain. 4 whole lvls before the adaptations to the movement penalty really began to kick in.

By the time 22nd and SO's rolled around I'm moving as fast, if not faster than PBs and WSs in dwarf form (never raced them but I don't notice any real difference between my tank and PB) and their slow movement is rarely brought up as a huge issue.

Bottom line is I don't "think" it's not an issue. I know it's an issue, but an easily solvable one.

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TP cost endurance , again needs slotting , so in the end granite pays already 2 slots for swift , 2 slots minimal for tp .

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Swift needs slotted early, but tp can wait so long as you're willing to rest when travelling to a mission. Even now I've only got one end redux in tp and it's enough. It's more important to toss out the taunts and pbaoes than have a continuous attack chain so you can actually rest mid-fight without endangering the squishies.

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If you think reaching the max is so important

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Eh?

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the stone armour is like a drag to play , it seriously is a rock and others beter not knockback anything from the aggro radius , or else its like crawl speed time.

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Not my experience, sorry. Generally the only time I catastrophically lose agro is when the knockback throws mobs into the next spawn when most of the 1st spawn is still kicking. Then it's less the movement issue and more the recharge that's the limiting factor. Despite having taunt 3 slotted for recharge redux it's still not fast enough so I have to select my targets carefully. Even after a nova has scattered them, unless someone else hits them they'll all come back to me, so I have to prioritise the ones other team mates are attacking. When we're only dealing with a single spawn this is easy. When a second spawn is involved it's nigh on impossible, but then could your average fire or invul tanker do it either, if we're talking +3s, not likely without backup. Ice, probably, but they are the premier agro grabbers in the tank world.

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Well, you might take a look at his posting history.

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Yes, because everytime I reply to someone's post I sift through their hundreds of previous posts hoping to find a pattern amongst the posts that demonstrate a certain level of knowledge about the current topic under discussion. Better me doing that than him saying "the in-game description makes no reference to -acc" as someone else was kind enough to do.

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Also, you might want to note that Coldfront and Warcry aren't updated too often, and have lots of old/false information.

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At the time I was sitting at my desk at work and they were the only sources I could find. I also note *now* hero builder makes refence to an acc debuff so I'm not the only one who was confused by the issue.

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Yes, you can negate some of the side effects, but a brute outside of granite will still be doing more. Also, the whole consept of granite is against the consept of the brute AT. The devs didn't give brutes ice armor due to the fact that CE had -recharge on foes, which would slow down fury generation, and IMO if they thought that they shouldn't have fiven them granite either, because it really slows down fury generation, and the effect.

You say the -70% rech can be negated by slotting recharges, but a non-granite brute can slot those recharges and attack even faster. Also, a stone brute is still slow even with swift, and teleport just isn't usable in some situations. While a granite can take more damage, in most cases a non-granite can take the damage just fine, while dealing higher damage, thus defeating the foes faster.

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Your argument is flawed; granite doesn't fit because it slows thing down. That seems to be about the size of it. So, every brute not slotted for maximum fury generation, every brute that doesn't have hasten or slotted for maximum fury sustainability... isn't a brute? I don't think you're saying that, but that's how it's coming across.

Seems to me you've created a very narrow definition of a brute (a definition you're implying, but not sharing). From my point of view a brute is just an AT that puts out decent damage, but also has decent defence capabilities. The exact ratios of the two can vary according to the design of the player. Granite armour just pushes the defence and damage over imaginary lines, making the playstyle different, but far from unrecogniseable.
A non-granite brute isn't going to take a fraction of the damage a granite brute can, yet will still put of damage that a granite would not only sell his granny for, but probably the rest of the pensioners in the retirement village as well.
Seems like a brute to me. Just one that leans more towards defence than damage.

The movement issue; A lot is made out of it, but it's making mountains out of molehills. In a given battle you rarely have to move very far and thanks to shift and left mouse button tping about can be done very efficiently. Do Brutes depend so heavily on speed? Not that I've seen.

But having said all that I am getting the gist of where you're coming from; I assume granite Brutes play more like tanks than any others and hence your objection to the power, but, meh, it's nothing compared to MoG being in regen

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Well, it might be something to do with the fact that filth is one of the best stone armor experts on these boards....but hell, what do I know?

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And I know that, how?

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Well, you didn't, you asked what my source was, as if player experience counts for nothing which is a little irritating.

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Why's it irritating? Do you always expect total strangers to accept your word on something? Do you accept the word of toal strangers to be automatically correct? If so, I have some magic beans you might be interested in

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I'm the [beep]-ing source.

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Do I assume you are the messiah and therefor infallible or do I assume you're just another forum member, as fallible as anyone else and in which case am being perfectly reasonable in asking how you know?!?

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Play it & test it - there's no -Acc in Granite Armour.

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I have and I have; for the past 10lvls (lvl42) and it feels like there's an accuracy penalty. However, since someone who understood the concept of sources posted (and did so without reacting like someone had suggested they drop their wedding tackle in the deep fat fryer because someone didn't take their word as holy gospel) I'm happy to concede there's no mention of -acc in the game.

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There isn't, Warcry, Coldfront and Hero Builder are wrong, wrong and wrongo. No -Acc in Granite.

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I can't tell if you're joking, but since there's no smiley I'll asume you're not which leads me to the inevitable question;

What's your source?

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Granite can dish out decent damage, I do agree on that. However, a brute in granite will never be as fast and damaging than a brute outside of it.

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And what's your point?

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No -Acc with Granite armour.

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I'm fairly sure there is, as are Warcry and Coldfront, which being at work are the only sources I can look up at the moment.