Hydrophidian

[ QUOTE ]
The AE as an alternate means to 50...great! That means farming is ok right?

[/ QUOTE ]

The one doesn't automatically follow from the other, though.

The developers have good reason to be vested in MA being usable from 1-50. They didn't have to design it that way, but they did.

So, I'm thinkin' any future adjustments probably aren't going to involve handicapping accessibility, unless they've exhausted all other options.

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Oh please. getting a 50 fast doesnt automatically make you an idiot. Dumb people rarely, if ever, learn. And if AE hadnt been available they would have quickly found their way to PI

[/ QUOTE ]

That still sounds tons better than never leaving Atlas.

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I don't see any worthwhile difference.

Before MA, the PLers were all in Peregrine. After MA, they're all in Atlas. Okay.

So?

I can understand not wanting new players to be immediately exposed to that scene, but I'm not sure how you address that while leaving MA's intended purpose intact (and some people will start in Galaxy anyway).

But, in terms of my own play experience, it makes no difference to me which zone the PLers congregate in. I'm not teaming with them, not paying any attention to them in Broadcast, and not hanging out in those zones.

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i enjoy conversation of almost any nature but when it gets to the point ridiculousness beyond the scope of reason i tend to just try and make it fun for my own amusement.

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This coming from the guy who got 'ridiculous beyond the scope of reason' right out of the gate?

Okeedokee.

Do me a favor? Don't invoke reason unless you plan to actually employ it.

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but in all sincerity what concerns you about AE?

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I think the same thing that concerns a lot of other people: that a fairly rushed/poor implementation is going to end up undermining its purpose and possibly damage the game as a whole.

The environment has been radically altered by the introduction. That's pretty plain to see. But I think it's still all in a transitional period right now. Whether or not it settles down for the better or for the worse remains to be seen.

But I'm not all that confident it's going to be for the better. Hence my concern.

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look obviously you are becoming a little obsessed with this thread and honestly i don't know why. at this point you just amuse me to no end. sorry but i just don't take this stuff seriously like you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Riiight.

Give it a break, chuckles.

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so that should give you all you need right there right? so you wanna hug it out? or just allow ourselves to have differences of opinion and move on?

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Oh, now this is interesting.

Difference of opinion about what? About what MA is doing to the game?

You do realize I haven't given an opinion on that, right?

Frankly, I think it's too early to say. I don't know which way it's going to go. I am, however, concerned.

Which is why when someone says, 'vets are leaving at an alarming rate', I'm interested to know where that's coming from.

See what happens when you try to read between the lines?

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remember Hydrophidian Jefferey the Giraffe still loves you even when your a little uptight

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Oh, wait. You throw a little passive-aggressive tantrum multiple times in this thread--because heavens forfend anyone expect you to actually support your "opinion"--and then you have the gall to call me uptight?

Yah, okay.

I'll ask again: on what basis do you make the claim that veteran players are leaving the game "at an alarming rate"?

Due to the ugly turn the dialogue has taken, I'm assuming you're basing this on personal experience.

So what's been your experience? What has brought you to the above conclusion?

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Can you prove he expected other people to be mind readers??!! If it's just your opinion that he did, then you should have said so in that sentence!

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Congratulations! This is one of the most asinine retorts I've seen on these forums in 5 years!

If you think I genuinely believe he was expecting people to read his mind, well... nevermind.

The point is, he was expecting people to read between the lines. It's not a reader's responsibility to do that.


[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe, instead, people could realize that no one without a red name is some Paragon Studios insider with access to info no one else has, therefore when they spout "facts" that are not available to everyone they are stating opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Opinion based on... what?

There's all sorts of data floating around out there. But, regardless of that, the statements were completely unsupported.

Do you have the modicum of intelligence required to recognize that, I wonder?

"It's just an opinion" is not a magical phrase that absolves one of all responsibility for all claims and comments made.

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I don't know, doesn't seem to me that requires much mind reading, just a modicum of intelligence. But, that's just my opinion.

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When presented with a baseless opinion, you can either...
1. ignore it.
2. ask for it to backed up.

Option 1 doesn't really lead to discussion, now, does it.

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There is a great difference between claiming cancer is a myth, which can be proven wrong, and stating that CoH's subscribers are declining, which cannot.

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The number of total subscribers has been released in the past. It's very possible they could be released in the future.

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It's the "you need to put 'in your opinion' in every sentence" crowd that rankles me.

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And no one in this thread has asked for that.

If the poster in the question had simply been clear in the first place, this whole stupid tangent would've likely been avoided.

Now applying option 1 to anyone who doesn't seem to get that.

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I apologize for misunderstanding the point of these forums. i was under the impression it was a place to come and discuss the game. i stand corrected. it seems (just my opinion... not based on facts at all) that this is a place where you can discuss the game so long as you have facts to back up everything you say and opinions are not wanted. sorry it wont happen again.

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Oh, grow up. Really.

You made claims. You were asked to back them up, even if it was just with something like "it's what it looks like to me."

That's the type of thing that happens in discussion, whether it's here or any place else.

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"Seems to me" was not on your pre-approved list of ""in my opinion", "I think", "my impression is", "it appears to me", and so on." I can only assume if falls under "and so on?" Are we to be mind readers for you list of "so on"s?

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No, you're supposed to be familiar enough with the English language to know what "seems to me" indicates.

Yes, words mean things.

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well sir i do apologize for having an opinion. if the forums allowed me to edit my post at this point id gladly like to put up a warning. something along the lines of

"warning: this is all opinion. some people cant grasp the idea that not all conversations revolve around cold hard facts. so take notice this is opinion".

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could use phrases like, "in my opinion", "I think", "my impression is", "it appears to me", and so on.

Basically, if it's just an opinion, frame it as such. Don't expect other people to be mind readers. Seems to me the problem isn't their grasp, it's your delivery.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your opinion ....

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Uh... hence "seems to me".

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well sir i do apologize for having an opinion. if the forums allowed me to edit my post at this point id gladly like to put up a warning. something along the lines of

"warning: this is all opinion. some people cant grasp the idea that not all conversations revolve around cold hard facts. so take notice this is opinion".

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could use phrases like, "in my opinion", "I think", "my impression is", "it appears to me", and so on.

Basically, if it's just an opinion, frame it as such. Don't expect other people to be mind readers. Seems to me the problem isn't their grasp, it's your delivery.

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people have been leaving since its launch.

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What people? What is this claim based on?

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CoH is loosing its hardcore dependable player base at an alarming rate.

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According to... who? Where is this information coming from?

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If everone who complained would just make a global channel and team together, we wouldn't see these kind of threads.

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Let's start one! What should it be called?

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What is most likely going on here?

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I think one of the causes is that there are a lot more people doing what you're doing than there used to be. They were likely attracted to the practice when MA gutted supply, even on items that used to have thousands for sale.

It's worse on blueside. On one particular item, I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of orders placed for X amount (I know, because I filled almost all of them). That was obviously just one person, filling up transaction slots on 3-4 characters. Add in his competitors, and you have around a thousand bids of "artificial" demand.

On another common salvage item, which, pre-MA, often had 0 bidding, there were around 200 for sale, and over 600 outstanding bids.

Problem was, all those bids were 100 Inf and below.

And the practice is probably being amplified by more people buying stuff up in preparation for 2XXP weekend.

The supply is coming in, and my sense is that it's now close to pre-MA levels. Items that, for whatever reason, haven't been subjected to this attention, are now ambling along comfortably, the standing supply on them no longer dwindling at an alarming rate.

But items that went into the "danger zone" immediately after MA's release are still being heavily manipulated. It's probably going to stay that way until we get a big dose of regular content, and we get a supply flood that makes the practice more trouble than it's worth.

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No matter how you spin it, defeat all isn't fun.

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For you. For me, Defeat Alls on small maps aren't an issue, and can actually be a lot of fun on a big team.

Frankly, I'd rather do that, than footslog through 5 levels of a giant lab map to get to that single boss at the end. Or go over a huge outdoor map 6 times looking for that last remaining captive.

I'd say Defeat Alls aren't the issue. Tedium is. It's true that Defeat Alls, in most situations, would be tedious. But there are certainly instances where they're not. And there are a lot of scenarios that aren't Defeat Alls that can be equally tedious, if not more so.

So, I think the advice should be not so much 'Don't use Defeat Alls' as it should be 'Don't make tedious missions'.

The latter would include not only the 90-95% of undesired Defeat Alls, but all the other tedious scenarios as well. And it would leave intact the rare Defeat Alls that're potentially fun or, at the very least, not a big deal.

Example: there's a Defeat All mission in the regular content. I forget which arc it is, but it's always a tiny warehouse choked with DE. I've usually found it to be crazy fun on a team.

My own rule of thumb is: don't make a mission bigger than it has to be. My default is a small map. I only go up from there if I need to, to accommodate details or for pacing.

I can see Kill All being a sensible objective for a mission.

That said, if I ever used it, I'd make sure the map was tiny.

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Its clear you have no idea what an epeen is.

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Oh really.

Many online forums are chock-full of anonymous gits who try to boost their fragile egos by behaving like know-it-all, condescending snots. They're just swingin' their e-peens.

And you, apparently, are one of them.

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But its ok, keep thinking nothing will change.

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And you keep thinkin' you can read minds.

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You defended their position "Parity". So you are one of those "people" lol.

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Uh, no lol. All I have been pointing out to you is that not everyone uses MA the way you use MA lol. A good number of people do not use MA the way you use MA lol. Thus, when you talk about your use of MA as if it were near-universal, you are in error.

lol.

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Your not very sharp with this forum thing are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not very sharp with this language thing are you lol.

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I mean you decided to give me your input only a few pages back...

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Yes. You might want to go back and read that.

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2.) "Feelings" forum is ------->

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Ah, typical. And, this coming from the person who couldn't properly restrain his 'annoyance.'

Look, kiddo, it's not about feelings, it's about having a civil dialogue. But it appears that this is beyond you. That's okay, you're not unique in that regard. You want to be all adversarial, condescending, vitriolic, swingin' your e-peen around, bein' all impressed with yourself. Okay. If you must.

I just find it trite and tedious. It got old over ten years ago. Maybe you're new to all of this. Maybe you think it's all cool and edgy to behave like a complete fathead. But it isn't. It's just immature and ignorant.

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MA Farms and MA Regular content are created through the same mechanism, anything done to one or another affects both. Something you cant seem to grasp.

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I grasp it just fine. My concern, in whatever steps are taken, if they are taken, is with minimizing the impact on the usage that isn't the problem.

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So basically what you are looking for is "Nothing to be done".

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First of all, I don't know if anything really needs to be done (I've said this before, perhaps you missed it). Only the developers can determine if something needs to be done (I've said this before, perhaps you've missed it). If they determine something needs to be done, I'd like that something to be as precise as possible--not ham-fisted--targeting the actual problem.

MA isn't the problem. How a particular subgroup of the player base is using MA is the (potential) problem.

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Because you cant nerf one without nerfing the other.

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I think there are certainly ways to address one associated behavior without seriously impacting another. But you're welcome to your differing opinion.

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Thats the point, if the ability is there, all MA Arcs will be treated like they can produce the same results (From a development PoV).

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I think this pretty much sums up the differences in our outlooks. You appear to be of the opinion that the developers, when deciding how to address a problem, won't take into account the different behaviors and usages associated with MA.

I think that they will. Moreover, I think that they have to, if they want MA to remain viable.

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Taking a page from your notebook...Says you. I see a much different picture, and so do many others.

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Yes, says me. A lot of people aren't interested in farming MA. A lot of other people have limited interest in farming MA. If you don't see that in your "picture", your "picture" is skewed.

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Just agree to disagree ok?

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Oh, now we're going to try to be reasonable?

No, I don't think so. You set this tone, you tried to be Mr. Smartmouth. This is the interchange you trolled for. Don't try to backpeddle on it now.

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What evidence? lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already pointed to some of it in this thread. Market behavior, for one. There are a number of people playing regular content (and thus they're not in MA, at least not all the time). Less than before MA, but more than there were immediately after MA's release. And the number seems to be growing, though there's so much fluctuation right now (partially due to the upcoming 2XXP weekend), it's hard to say with any degree of certainty.

Then you have the number of people posting in this forum who've admitted to a lack of interest or a limited interest. There is also an entire forum of activity based on MA as a story-building tool. The people posting there obviously aren't in it just for the farms, if they even farm at all.

Then you have channel chatter on the handful of heavily-populated global channels I'm on. People are doing all sorts of things. Are some requesting MA farms? Sure. Is that all they're requesting? No. Is it even the #1 request? No. Not that I've seen. Others posting here have remarked on this as well.

Further, in 5 years of playing this game, I've interacted with hundreds of players. Not a single one of them has been interested in power-leveling for the sake of power-leveling. Those that PLed did it to get to a certain point, so that they could then enjoy other content they were looking to enjoy.

And, frankly, many of us out here can power-game to the point where we advance at a more than comfortable rate. There's no desire or need to make it even easier and faster by resorting to something like an MA farm.

So, yes. A lot of people don't use MA the way you use MA. If you're contesting that, then your perspective is obviously quite limited. You're not well informed. You're not paying attention.

If you're saying a large number of people use MA to power-level, I haven't contested that. If you think I have, you haven't been paying attention, and you need to explore critical reading.

If you're saying the majority of people use MA to farm... I recognize that as being possible, and I've said as much. Repeatedly. But I have no way of knowing that for certain, and neither do you. So, when you talk about it as if it's a given... it isn't. It's your opinion. Nothing more. Again, get over yourself.

If you think the overwhelming majority of people are using MA to power-level ("90%sh of the content run" was your earlier statement), I think you're flat-out wrong. But again, it's just your opinion. You can stop pretending you have some sort of secret inside access to data the rest of us don't possess. You don't. Again, get over yourself and put the e-peen away.

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Look up the word Naive when you get a chance.

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Look it up yourself. That is, if you can manage to pull your face out of an MA farm long enough to do so.

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Which is why "There will be a change, just a matter of what", so discussions are good and differences of opinion are not bad.

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Oh, the irony.

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But quit telling me the Sky is Purple. k?

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Quit sniffing glue. k? I think you've been seeing words that aren't actually there.

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Well from where i am sitting, its clear, you have no idea what your argument is outside of Full XP in MA.

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You're wrong. Thank you for confirming that you've jumped to conclusions without bothering to fully understand what you were responding to.

I can now comfortably disregard any further input you may have.

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Its not a simple issue. And comprimises will have to be made.

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Never said otherwise. And if it's not a simple issue, you can rest assured that the solution also will not be simple.

1. The easy answer is: I enjoy it.

But why do I enjoy it? Well, I enjoy the mini-game aspect of it, for one. I'm also fascinated by the sociological dynamics involved, the window it gives me to the community as a whole. I can make predictions on behavior patterns and, if I'm right, I end up with a huge chunk o' change to show for it. 'Course, also fun are the things I didn't see coming.

And, yah, it's not just about making the Inf, but also sometimes about how fast I can make it. I go into turbo-market-mode when I want Prestige. The goal is to make it so fast, the horrible exchange rate becomes tolerable. Which brings me to...

2. Convenience. I want the option to be able to get whatever I want, whenever I want it.

When costume piece recipes first hit the scene, their drop rate was messed up. Consequently, they routinely sold for hundreds of millions of Inf. This went on for weeks.

Now, I didn't buy any at the time... didn't want one that bad. But if I had wanted one that bad, I could've bought it with my main ('cuz, yes, even before the market's introduction, I saved up Inf. People often boggled at how "rich" I was).

I just like having that option.

Since the market's introduction, we've seen Purples arrive, and their price has steadily inflated since then. PVP recipes have also come online, are super expensive, and, even though I only dabble in PVP these days, some of those PvE bonuses are nice.

Having huge bankrolls on hand means I have the option to buy these things whenever I want, if I decide I want them. And if the next big-ticket item that hits the scene really appeals to me, I can just snap that up as well.

3. Roleplay.

Yah, might seem strange, but there it is. My main has always been played as having a way with money, a trait she shares with her uncle, father, and alternate reality analogue (an alt). The market provided me a means to actually represent that in game.

I also have a few characters that are inventors/designers/engineers. The market (and IOs) have given me the means to represent that as well.

4. I'm Omnivorous

I've been with this game since August of '04, without breaks. Part of what's kept me interested for 5 years straight is that I've engaged in everything the game has offered. Badges, PVP, base building, CoV, IOs, the market, MA... the whole shebang. I play the whole game, and, right now, for me, the market is a big part of that.

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Best Rumored Proposed Fix I've heard to date: AE buildings will only run missions for levels appropriate for the zone the building in question is.

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I really don't see this happening.

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Interesting statement.

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True statement.

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This is exactly why i call you naive

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And it's as asinine, snotty, and inappropriate as the first time you said it.

But keep swingin' your e-peen, Slappy. I'm sure someone, somewhere is impressed.

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I like many others level alot faster in the MA.

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As you keep saying. And what you keep leaving out is that you run in farms and/or use the "tricks" described above by Keepdistance. And, as I've stated I don't know how many times now, that's not what I'm referring to.

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But why are MA xp farms the dominant content atm?

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Are they?

You're making an assumption. You may be correct. You may not be. The only people who can say for certain are the devs. But it doesn't really matter. That you seem to think it does indicates that you don't actually understand my position on this.

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Coincidence? according to you.

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Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I've never stated, or even implied, that I think that.

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XP and Story Control are on the table.

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You think.

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Positron stated that the MA is to be used for stories and not for powerlevelling. So XP is a valid target for "nerfage" (Not that i want this).

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I disagree. It defeats a large part of its intended purpose.

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Yes i did. People used the excuse "But the devs want parity" in regards to XP in the MA.

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I'm not "people". So if you're trying to use me as a proxy to argue with these "people", you're wasting your time. I'd suggest you take it up with those "people".

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You dont like that im condecending when you state obvious half truths

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I don't like that you're condescending, period. There's no call for it, sorry. And you're the one who's been stating half-truths. Which is what I initially called you on. And you continue to do it even now.

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ie AE XP < REG XP (Oh but i didnt mention farms...oopsie).

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Exactly. The way you use MA is not the way everyone uses MA. It may not even be how the majority uses MA. This is what I keep pointing out. There is nothing "half truth" about it.

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Nope because the devs have complete control over the Dreck mission. They dont have the same control (ie nerf a specific mission) with the AE. Someone will just recreate it. You follow?

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And there are other options open to them to deal with it, aside from punishing everyone and nerfing the entirety of the system. You follow?

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So in essence, regular stories and farms are all grouped together in what is called Mission Architect. They are integrally linked. So when i say MA XP > Reg XP, im telling the whole truth.

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You're entitled to that opinion. But that's all it is. And I happen to disagree with it. Usage is relevant. MA being used as the devs intended is not the problem, and does not jibe with your "whole truth".

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And besides, it apparently doesnt take players long to figure this tid-bit out

[/ QUOTE ]

That you can farm MA for huge rewards? No kidding. So what?

A lot of people simply aren't interested. A lot more people have only limited interest. This is what you don't seem willing to accept, despite the evidence of it being all over the place. And you call me naive? Get over yourself.

You see, I understand that there are a lot of people using MA to power-level. I never said otherwise. Is it too many? I have no clue... and neither do you. Only the developers can make that determination.

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Thats deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's a simple observation, and I'm even more convinced of it now. Instead of a snarky dodge, why don't you try and tell me what you think my argument is... and then I'll let you know if you're right.

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I'm in the beta for CO. It's not that great to be honest. Takes way too many cues from WoW.

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I've no interest in CO at all, for a handful of reasons. A big one is, in the gameplay videos I've seen, all the characters behaved like caffeinated gerbils.

I just believe that when it's released, things will get a bit more pleasant and civil around here.

At least for a little while.

On a related note:

CO can't go live fast enough.

Jeezus.

[ QUOTE ]
Well you do like playing naive

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everyone who uses MA is using it to farm XP. If you're not aware of this, it is you who are naive. There are people who farm XP almost exclusively, there are people who do not farm XP at all, and there are people who do a little of both. The third group is probably the majority.

Those who are not using MA to farm XP are gaining XP more slowly than they would if they were playing regular content.

Therefore, XP in MA is not the problem. The "problem"--if there is a problem at all--are the means by which XP is gained too fast (as determined by the devs).

Did you read the title of the thread, by any chance?

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and it annoys people like me.

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Get over it. I'm not here to coddle the sensibilities of anonymous gits on the internet trying to use a forum discussion to fluff their egos. Neither is anyone else.

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FYI: MA = MA - There is no subgroups of "regular" and "farm" they are all grouped together.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, some anonymous git on the internet doesn't get to redefine the discussion. Especially when that redefinition is absolutely insipid.

When the question is "should there be XP in MA"? The subgroups of MA are most certainly a valid and relevant part of that discussion.

XP wasn't universally nerfed because of a Dreck farm. So, apparently, "subgroups" do matter.

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So stop using the one that suites your argument best

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I don't think you even know what my argument is.

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you are very amusing.

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Oh, look, yet another condescending, snotty remark.

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I level faster in the MA, alot faster (solo or on an 8 man team).

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In farms which you have already admitted to, so kindly drop the little troll dance.

There is no patrol XP in MA.

There are no mission bonuses in MA.

There are no story arc bonuses in MA.

Your "experiences" do not change any of this.

XP gain is already subpar in MA.

"End of story."

If you're getting more XP in MA than you would in regular content, you're in an XP farm.

So, please stop implying the XP in MA is universally better than it is in the regular content. It is not. Not everyone using MA is farming XP.

"The developers want it to be possible to go 1-50 within AE" does not equal "We want our players to level from 1 to 50 in AE only and never experience everything else the game has to offer".

MA is designed to be a leveling option. You can't level without XP. So, removing XP from MA would defeat a large part of its purpose. If the developers didn't want it to be a leveling option, XP wouldn't have been in there to begin with.

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Maybe if you live in a happy little bubble where people only do 'regular' AE story based content sure.

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Y'know, as an aside, I'm getting really tired of this snotty, condescending routine so many around here seem so fond of adopting.

There are plenty of people using MA "normally". And for those people, XP gain is slower in MA than it is in regular content. There would probably be more people using it "normally" if the XP gain wasn't so subpar.

Not everyone power-levels. And, no, I don't think even the majority are doing it. Not even the "bulk" of people using MA, regardless of how you've chosen to interpet your "indications".

But I don't know that for sure, and, frankly, neither do you. Only the devs are in a position to determine that, no matter how high you think your horse is.