Grey Pilgrim

I don't know that people are asking for that specifically. Most of them that do not like what we can see so far because of how the to hit requirement would work or what it encourages in builds (and the setup does encourage people to want and go for perma insta-snipe). To be honest, I mostly just wanted Snipes to have their animation/interrupt times justified. If they could have dropped a minion at least with their old setup and a lieutenant with build up (for Blasters), I would have been more happy with them.

What we have now is something different entirely. If the devs want to give us a potential fast snipe, I'm fine with the concept, I just want it to work better across the various powersets that have snipes.

I agree that the system we can see is far from perfect, but I can't go with you on waiting to see to discuss it. We have some info and players are going to hash it over, that's what the forums are for. If the devs didn't want to, they're perfectly capable of keeping mum about it. Arbiter Hawk has kept his thoughts pretty close to the vest in the past (we're getting much more talk from him ahead of time on these snipe/ranged changes than Kheldians got when changes were actually on beta!). If the devs didn't want us to talk these over, they wouldn't have said anything.

We'll certainly need to see what hits beta to critique that, but until then, we go with what we have.

Wow, what a... meaningless statement? Seriously, someone posts their opinion of a game change based on how the game works, and that's how you respond (with your opinion)? I'll be sure to do the same to you at some point... or not, actually, since I generally try to understand the point of view from others and at least talk from there. I believe this is one of the more rude and insulting things I have ever seen you post, and you're not really known for doing so, at least in my experience.

There are posts (and an entire thread) examining what gives to hit in the game already and people are talking about restructuring their builds entirely to accommodate this snipe change. Is it as bad as non-inherent Fitness, as Kyriani has brought up? No, it's not. But it's the same kind of thinking, which the devs were supposedly trying to remove from the game by giving inherent fitness. Why encourage it with something that is supposed to be an improvement to a power that is seen as needing of a buff?

If I24 went live with the changes to Snipe we know of, are there any other attacks in the game that require so many other power picks or build approaches to use? And I'm not talking obvious things like damage or accuracy here, so don't get sidetracked for that. Assassin's Strike, tier 3 blasts, melee attacks, etc., all get their mechanics working from themselves or the set they are in. Can you imagine needing to take a power pool to use the various mechanics of Assassin's Strike?

Why is it better for Snipes to suddenly break this approach? There are more ways to limit an insta-snipe than with a to hit requirement, and ways to buff Devices with Snipes as well. Why is this the best approach?

Again, keep in mind that the majority of people arguing for adjustments to the snipe proposal are not saying it's a terrible thing. They're saying it could work better and have stronger implementation. There is a lot of negativity coming from the other side arguing for the snipe changes as is that suggests we don't like the idea of snipe changes at all. Or something. I'm not sure what merits the negativity I keep seeing from posters in this and other threads.

As for the "you don't HAVE to build for insta-snipe," that thinking can certainly work for some people. But many people like things to be simple and to use a good power as often as they can. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of the groups and arguing which group is a larger percentage of players is needless and moot. You can easily cater to the "I want things simple or I feel the need to build for insta-snipe" crowd while satisfying the "you don't have to" group. How? That's been posted on plenty. This post is long enough already.

This, to me, is also the crux of the issue. Snipes are a fairly standard attack across many powersets and this does encourage some rather perverse builds that I can't imagine the devs are intending (from anything Hawk or Synapse have said, I don't think they want people to be building for a Kismet in a build and Tactics just because of the Snipe change).

I understand if they don't want people using an insta-snipe at all times. But if that's a requirement they want to have, it should be implemented more consistently/easily to play with. The 22% to hit requirement invites a lot of perverse playstyles, as you put it, and isn't as clear as a lot of combo systems new powersets have had (and I have read the complaints about the new trend of combos as well).

I think this is still the response to that:

[QUOTE=Biospark;4283847]We are not saying that it is not an improvement over the existing powers, just that it is not enough, and not fairly distributed amongst Powersets OR Archetypes. Certainly, this alone should make the Devs take another look at it./QUOTE]

That's still debated by some who seem to think the discrepancy is okay or a good thing, but it's still a valid rebuttal.

I hope they do this. Most of my complaints about the snipe proposal (and those are in application, not in the actual improvement to snipes) would go away with this. It's more accessible to all sets and gives a bit of an advantage to Blasters with this.

Sounds like you have the bug where if you zone with it on the toggle keeps going, but you're not getting benefit from it. At least, that was around when I23 hit and I believe it still is. You'll get the always on part, but not the toggle part.

For the thread, I didn't bother with melee. Between Alpha, Destiny, Interface, Judgement, and maybe even Lore, there have been so many opportunities to improve survivability that I went Assault or Support for my Tanks. And really, if you want to be more team friendly, Support is probably better (and that would up your survivability as well). Despite some posts to the contrary from others, I notice a significant difference in my offense with Assault going.

On the offchance you check this again, I think the surprise comes from a misunderstanding of what the annoyance is about. Most people probably have Aim and Build Up, and for good reason. The issue is not in using those, but in needing to use those before an attack. Before this change, it was up to you what powers you used after Aim or Build up, and all those powers worked "the same" whether Aim or Build Up was active (albeit with boosted damage). Not so now. The to hit requirement feels much more prescriptive of a certain playstyle.

I've tried to state this in the Blaster forum's thread on "i24 Blaster Changes" as well. The to hit requirement just isn't as accessible as some things you have done with Assassin's Strike and powersets with combos, and I would like to see that here as well.

And on the chance you do read this, thanks for doing this thread. It's good to hear your thoughts and approach on things.

Yeah. Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Debbie Reynolds... who's ever heard of them? There were plenty of singers popular then that you don't hear of anymore, sure, but names do spring to mind from those. Every decade generally has some people that will stand the test of time beyond that decade, for at least a few decades (though lasting centuries is a pretty mean feat).

Anyway, for the list, I was surprised like others to see Beast on there. He's pretty solid compared to most of the others.

How is it not very large? Devices gets it with no work while other sets have to work a lot to get it (slot kismet, invest in Tactics, etc.). I guess you could have a different definition of large than me, but... ease versus work seems large to me.

I think the snipes have a lot more similarity to Assassin's Strike than Placate, which is why I keep comparing those. Bringing in the others makes for comparisons that aren't as apt... to the point where it doesn't make sense to bring it up like you are. I also brought up the recent sets with combos, which are all attack set related as well. Every example meshes nicely with the attack set, without requiring extra power picks or insp use, which the current Snipe proposal does.

Part of the issue is I don't know or understand where the devs want this new snipe potential to be. They're not against giving it perma to Devices, but they want to limit it for other sets.

Aim isn't up that frequently, is my point. Between Build Up and Aim (if you have both) it wouldn't be that bad, I know, but discussing these just brings me back to what I have been saying a lot: inconsistency between sets, the to hit requirement not being "accessible" like similar powers or other powersets with combos, etc.

I've seen plenty of ideas for stacks via Defiance with To Hit, combos, etc., all of which are more universally accessible and balanced between the sets.

I can see them thinking that, but at the same time, I'd rather keep emphasizing and showing why the nuke changes are needed so they don't forget or under-prioritize it. While what we have on the table is nice, crashing nukes at least do still have issues and need help. The I24 changes are an issue behind what I was hoping for (given past comments from the dev team), and now the nukes are even further beyond that.

I'm not saying we should belabor the point and annoy Synapse or Hawk (though for all I know, he hates my guts after all my agitating for more Peacebringer changes ), just keep it out there that the changes are still needed.

Your big list isn't really comparative to Snipes, however. I love having sets be diverse and act in different ways, but Snipes are a consistent power across the board that works in the same way between sets currently. The proposed changes make them somewhat more useful, but not in a consistent way as they are now.

It's an added level of complexity mostly put in (as far as I can tell) to buff Devices a bit. That's not a particularly good reason to put in the odd to hit buff requirement. I call it odd, because when it came to other powers that affected multiple powersets, the devs have usually been a lot more inclusive (hence my looking at Assassin's Strike and other recent combo abilities). The new snipes don't mesh nicely with the sets they are in, they require extra powers or insps to use effectively, with the exclusion of Devices.

Can you imagine that being slapped on to Assassin's Strike? The thought makes me wrinkle my nose. And even if the insta snipe isn't supposed to be available at all times, there are other ways to limit it than letting Devices access it easily and not let others do so. The ability to insta-snipe should be clear and consistent from one snipe to the next. And doing so doesn't somehow eliminate diversity between the sets, either.

Hmmm. I can appreciate wanting to keep this relatively consistent between the secondaries, but I wonder if a little leeway might be granted to put these into more logical powers. As the previous poster pointed out, Lightning Field makes a bit more sense and at least syncs up Fire Manipulation. I understand your reasoning for wanting it in that level range, but I think I would prefer the Sustain ability being put in a more logical power and leaving it up to the player to choose when to take it over the alternative we have for us.

Really? I think I forgot you were going for that over the weekend, sorry. Things have been a little busy for me. Seems weird that we can't find enough people for after Hami, though... that's usually got more people than can join a Magi trial.

I'm not debating whether a limiter is needed, because one is needed for any attack power (recharge, damage scale, etc.). What I am quibbling is the to hit limiter, since that hurdle is more or less easy for different sets to hit, rather than being consistent across the board. Yes, Devices needs help, but this seems like a weird sidestep, rather than an attempt to actually fix the problems in the set itself.

In other words, a Snipe change should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.

The accessibility comments are more a complaint that this drives people more toward slotting Kismet and taking tactics as well, and the inspiration usage approach is a problem well hashed over with the "give blasters mez protection/just use an insp" debate.

I'm not asking for something just like Stalkers got, but their guaranteed crit for AS is a lot more accessible for every powerset than the proposed snipe change is for sets that have snipes. I'm arguing for equal accessibility.

Good reminder about the damage snipes do. I think I'm used to thinking of them in terms of the interrupt, which means their damage isn't nearly high enough. I checked Mid's after my original post and noticed that it will be quite nice (Archery's Snipe does more damage than Blazing Arrow, for crying out loud)... when you can use it. I'm still concerned with the to hit requirement attached to this (it seems rather limiting... and I'd almost rather their recharge was increased to drop the interrupt time instead, it's less confusing), but I think they do have options to deal with it, and possibly just help Blasters with it. Building up to hit via Defiance (with a cap) might be a trick, etc.

Well, be careful of how you read it. Arbiter Hawk and Synapse are pretty conservative in how far they will go with things, preferring to take small steps and not go too far. Too conservative, in my opinion (I still think a few Peacebringer powers need tweaking after last years tweaks), but they're not expending a bare minimum of effort when they do make adjustments. I do appreciate their conservative approach for the most part. Players tend to call reductions of power even in beta nerfs. If I were a dev I'd make small adjustments as well, given that annoying tendency.

But yes, crashing nukes need help and I would have rather seen them looked at in I24.

I am happy that they're making changes, but I'm never going to call a change good just because it's a change. The Tier 3 blasts getting an 80 foot range is a clear win. The adjustment to snipes is guardedly good, making them better, but the 22% to hit requirement is a bit iffy and not accessible enough (accessible meaning usable without too many weird build or insp usage requirements.... I think their changes to Assassin's Strike or the new Tidal Power with Water Blaster are a good things to shoot for with accessibility).

I think I need more data on the secondaries to really discuss those well. Main issue there is how they're saddling more iffy or skippable powers with the boost, which does upset established builds more than if they had added survivability in another way (some more mitigation from attacks, regen stacking from using attacks, etc.). I guess that's my main thought on those... I'd like to see a better integration of adding to our survivability, rather than throwing it in with just one secondary power. I'm sure I'll roll with it if they stick with the one secondary power, but I still think it would work better integrated with our attacks or inherent.

No matter what, I hope we get a freespec with I24. These changes, however, they go Live, will require a fair amount of adjusting.

That's true part of the time, but whittling down is something that does happen to Blasters quite often. I upped the pace and survivability of my Blasters by adding in Aid Self (and not always having the slots to give it more than the default), something that I generally don't use in combat. Having it lets me keep on moving from one spawn to the next, with Aid Self as a quick pause (or a quick boost if I need to retreat from a hard target).

Generally, if your health is dropping so fast that Aid Self single slotted can't help you, you're probably taking on more at once than you can handle. And I don't play at x2 and often do things like solo or duo a group that was meant for 8 when on teams. I'm not sure if the new regen numbers equate well to using aid self occasionally, but they probably will be a boost in a Blaster's pace between mobs and cut down on deaths.

You're hitting on the other side of the thing that bugs me about the snipe change. Besides having a to hit requirement that I don't care for, it also doesn't do much for the damage.

How much does making them uninterruptible increase their DPA? Does that make them worth using or at least competitive ST powers? I guess I don't know about that yet and maybe the devs just want to make them powers that players might want to pick, which I don't think they are right now.

I would like them to have some kind of merit to be used as an opener (though in your example, I could see the snipe being a good follow up to some AOEs on a boss or lt). I suppose they'll take out a minion if you use build up or aim first, but they won't without it, and that's not all that impressive. Assassin's Strike does ridiculous things with build up going (or if it crits) and the other capabilities of a Stalker have to roughly equate to a Blaster sniping from range, if not go beyond.

Regardless, the Snipe proposal, for what we know about it now, seems lacking. Lots of time to work on it, at least. Pity we aren't seeing nuke changes as well, even if they don't want to take on too much at once. I'd almost say crashing nukes are more of a concern in a game with Judgement powers than snipes are. But this is where we are and I'll roll with it.

I like that a little more than what we currently have heard (and of course, I24 isn't even in subscriber beta yet, so I'm not going to be too over the top with any concerns). Doesn't gate the snipes behind our few +to hit tools and favors a "charge" effect to using Snipe, which isn't that different from how Assassin's Strike works now in combat.

I'd probably go for more than 4% for each hit, though, especially since AS for Stalker requires all of 3 hits for a guaranteed crit. That's better than Snipe, I think (but memory may not serve there, and I don't have time to look at the moment0.

I kind of feel like the ideas planned aren't fixing what people were seeing with Blasters either. I also don't like that a certain kind of fix is being added wholesale, to be honest. Slapping regen on powers (some of which are more or less desirable... Lightning Clap is a pretty crummy power even with the regen slapped on) feels like shoehorning a one size fits all approach to feet that are more diverse than that (sorry for the belabored analogy). I could go further as well... Cloaking Device is a no-brainer for any Devices player, but things like Chilling Embrace and Blazing Aura haven't been. I don't know that it's a good thing to suddenly make those powers required to get the "boost" to Blasters.

I'd also say that something to help Blasters that keys in with our offense would have been more fun and thematic. I still really liked the idea for some kind of mitigation via our attacks that was in the huge Blaster thread in the AT forum, but maybe that's just personal preference. Still seems more thematic to an offensive AT than Regen for all. Also would make it easier for all Blasters to access these, rather than requiring taking just ONE power (as noted at the end of the previous paragraph).

Last but not least, while I like an improvement to snipes, I really dislike the to hit requirement. As has been mentioned, it requires everyone to build in certain ways to get more out of it (like domination used to be), rather than being accessible to all builds that have a snipe, like the changes to Assassin's Strike were for all Stalker players. Sure, the devs didn't have the hid mechanic to work with there, but something more accessible would have been much better. I don't really have a great suggestion for what to do instead (and I hate to only critique), other than perhaps locking it into range somehow? I thought that was suggested by Arcanaville or someone else (sorry if that's incorrect) as a possibility, and if feasible, that seems much better and more accessible. If you're in 80 feet, uninterruptible. Over, you have the ranged advantage and it's interruptible.

The Tier 3 blast changes work fine for me. Maybe some re-jiggering will be necessary for a few weaker sets because of that, but not being locked into close range for those will be a real boon for ranged players.

I would agree this should be on a case by case basis. Easier to find things as needed.

And... we better be keeping the Welcome to Victory thread! I keep it updated... and it's my one chance at the spotlight!

New Mecha set has a pretty sweet looking rifle as well. Actually a lot more options for Beam than it had at the start. Vanguard, sci-fi, and even steampunk from some packs or out of the box.

I still rather wish that beam had riffed on the existing beam weapons from the Bots MM set, but it still is pretty fun. The ST damage packs a nice walllop as well. Weaker on AOE, but it works well if you open with your smaller cone or Nuke first. Cutting Beam is a very wide cone, so it works well later in a fight.

If you like Blasters, I'd recommend a secondary that lets you lean on the Primary more once a fight start. Energy works well there, and Fire is working out okay for me, knowing that I'm not going to leverage it too much.

Probably want to shoot for after the Hami, though I suppose that depends on what you mean by 8 PM. That's usually when I'm on for Saturdays, and should be easy to get people. Though maybe you meant 8 PM for some completely different time zone than I was thinking?

If needed, I can always run my own. Might be easier, since I want to run it with my Tank that is a badger. Once I do that, I'll be fine bringing in my Time Controller for buff/debuff.