Golden Girl
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Posts
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Joined
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The Cleo vs Washington choice seems a pretty deliberate way for the devs to show just how brutal Praetorian society is compared to the real world on Primal Earth - like while you're playing around at that level blue side, David Wincott is asking you to help arrest a few Outcasts - but in Praetoria, the game's inviting you to decide who you'd prefer to murder.
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I'v just done the new Halloween Tip mission, and I think it's very well done - the "magic" Paretorian tunnel map is very good - I can totally see it being used in the MA a lot too.
The biggest bug with the mission seems to be not getting anything at the end - I got the mission complete message and "exit" button, and when I checked the Tip tab, the Halloween Tip said "Return to Contact" - but the "Investigate" button was still active too, and clicking that just brought up the opening text window of the mission again, and I was able to reselect it - so right now, it seems to be on an endless loop where you can select it, play it, complete it and then select it again, with no rewards available. -
Someone who refused to buy the party pack?
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Am I the only one who thought for a moment that that wasn't a CoH avatar because the costume was so well done to make it look like an animal?
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Quote:Yes he did - he took away the people's liberty - he and his followers can't have been that stupid that they'd think they could do that and not have an uprising on theri hands.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
He didn't bring Civil War
If that was all he'd brought, then he wouldn't be facing an armed uprising - it was bringing mass-murder, slavery, torture, brainwashing and repression that forced the people to take up arms against him and his vile system.Quote:he brought peace and prosperity.
Tyrant chose war the moment he went to war against the human rights of the people - which he was well aware of, otherwise he wouldn't have built his sytem of repression to deal with the opposition to his rule.Quote:People who were under the yoke and couldn't take the weight chose civil war and murder, not Cole. -
Quote:No - it's our duty to set the people of Praetoria free as well as protect Primal Earth, so we need to dismantle the dictatorship with as few civilian casualties as possible.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So... by that logic we should just toss a few nukes through the portal and call it a day, right? After all it'll end the threat he represents, the casualties caused will be his fault, and the spirits of the Praetorian citizens can rest happily knowing that they might be dead but they are free.
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Quote:They'd have to be crushingly dumb to still beleive that by the time they reached 20 and saw the truth about Tyrant and his disgusting system.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
However, I also believe that it is possible (especially for someone who doesn't have the omniscient viewpoint that we as players have) to honestly believe that reform is possible and work towards that end and that such a person would be a "good guy".
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Quote:Any casualties in the dimensional war are Tyrant's fault - he brought civil war to his own world through his refusal to give the people their freedom, and now he's trying to take away the freedom of another world too.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
So murdering the civilians who work in the city he built is the right answer?
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Quote:But Paragon City doesOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
Unfortunately for you, Praetoria and all the storylines connected to Praetoria do not exist in a Silver Age comic book, so black-and-white, heroes-are-always-right morality don't apply to them.
And insane supervillains and their mindless thugs have always been popular in Silver Age comicbooks, so Tyrant and his stormtroopers fit right in.
Plus, CoH has quite a bit of Golden Age stuff in it too
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Quote:Not in a comicbook superhero gameOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
It's possible to be a hero, to struggle to do the right thing and the best thing for the most people, and still be wrong.
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Quote:How gradual would the reforms be in a dictatorship that's run by an immortal with a messiah-complex who can survive a direct hit from a nuke and is supported by legions of superpowered stormtroopers and huge war robots, has an utterly loyal army of clone super-soldiers made from his own DNA, and a population brainwashed to support him?Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A gradual reform potentially allows for a transition to a more free society without the hardship and upheaval inherent in a violent insurrection.
It's quite possible that he might fancy his chances of keeping things just the way they are, and not really see the need for reforms or any kind of compromise when he's got that much firepower to back him up. -
Quote:Well, that would be kinda hard when there isn't any good to findOriginally Posted by Steampunkette
We can't possibly just topple the Dictator himself and leave all the good he actually accomplished in place.
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Quote:Shouldn't someone tell Vanguard this, and especisally the two heroes Apex and Tin Mage, otherwise they might do something crazy, like organize teams to fight the dictatorship rather than the Resistance?Originally Posted by Steampunkette
But aren't the Resistance and their terrorists looking to exercise the rights to torture, enslave, and murder, too? They're keen to reprogram the clockwork into murder bots, enslave the Seers and turn them into Psychic bombs, and more than willing to torture, kill, and destroy everyone they can in order to "Free" them from their prison.
And surely someone needs to let Statesman and the Freedom Phalanx - along with the other heroes of Pirmal Earth - know that they're on the wrong side?
Libel isn't libel when it's trueQuote:libel everyone
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Quote:Which is correct - there's nothing in the dictatorship that would have any place in a normal democratic society.Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Wardens want to tear down the system without harming others because they think the system itself is inherently flawed and cannot be redeemed.
Everything in the dictatiorship is an excess - the only way to prevent them is to destroy them.Quote:Responsibles don't think the system is inherently flawed, and instead want to prevent its worse excesses (Neuron, Tyrant) while keeping the system as a whole in place.
The Praetorian system is based on repression and the constant carrying out of crimes against humanity on daily basis - there's nothing in the system that needs to be - or should be - saved. -
Quote:And we've all seen where that's left the people of PraetoriaOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
There's nothing tacit about it, actually. He's explicit that decisions should be left to people like "you and me" (speaking to the character here).
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Quote:No you don't, becuase then you'd be a hero and not the minion of a dictatorshipOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
I completely understand your argument and viewpoint.
It isn't - for example, the freedom to murder, torture and enslave people isn't good - but Tyrant and his thugs seem to be pretty keen on that type of freedom.Quote:I do not think all freedom is inherently good.
The freedom to not be murdered, tortured and enslaved is good - although Tyrant and his stormtroopers don't seem to view this kind of freedom in the same way. -
Quote:But under Tyrant, you can get all 4, with a side-order of brianwashing to goOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
To those looking at the issue from the other side, those that would prefer pain, torture and death to slavery
The right to make any decision is a basic human right - it's what freedom and free will are all about.Quote:the right to make stupid decisions is more important than the threat caused by the stupid decisions
Forgive, maybe - allow him and his stromtroopers to continue their crimes against humanity, noQuote:and so there is absolutely no justification whatsoever that can forgive Tyrant.
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Quote:Isn't this the basic state of playing the game?Originally Posted by Fusion_7
when I went back into Freemdom
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Quote:"Might" be wrong? That's like saying Mother Mayhem might be mentally unstableOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
He actually tells you, to your face, if you do the Loyalist -> Paragon City choice in the final transition from Praetoria. Cole believes, and not without some evidence to support him, that people, given freedom, make stupid, dangerous, destructive choices - and it only takes one man (Hamidon Pasalima) to make a choice stupid, dangerous and destructive enough to threaten the entire species.
Cole might be wrong in the extreme to which he's taken his conclusion, but it is, at the very least, an understandable, if not acceptable, conclusion.
And how exactly are using brainwahsing, slavery, mass-murder, torture and repression to stop people from doing bad things understandable in any logical sense?
Like how exactly can Tyrant's thought process of "I think humans sometimes do bad things, so I'll brainwash, enslave, murder, torture and repress them to make sure they can't do any of that evil stuff" be understandable to any sane person? -
Quote:Then why is almost everything Tyrant does focused on crushing all resistance to his rule and oppressing the people he's meant to be protecting? Why is the state machine looking inwards when the threat to humanity is otuside the sonic barrier?Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Praetoria is the way it is because of Hamidon, not the Resistance.
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to drug the people inside the fence?
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to enslave psychic girls to use as thought police inside the fence?
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to arrest and imprison without trial people who ask where their psychic female family members have gone?
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to murder the families of teachers who tell their students about the real history before Praetoria?
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to have torture chambers under the PPD precincts inside the fence?
If the Hamidon is outside the sonic fence, then why does he need to murder so many people on a daily basis inside the fence?
There's a massive leap needed to make any kind of connection between the threat of the Hamidon outside the sonic fence and the crimes against humanity being caried out by the loyalists inside the fence - but there's only a little step needed to connect those crimes to the prupose of keeping Tyrant in power. -
I'd watch it - a 5th movie as a transition between the old and the new would be nice.
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Quote:Unfortunately for the loyalist stropmntroopers, this isn't Praetoria, so criticism of the insane god-emperor they worship can't be suppressed that easilyOriginally Posted by Eiko-chan
GG, just shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
I leave the ignorance of ethics to the loyalist stormtroopersQuote:The only thing you do is derail any conversation on ethics, largely because you don't actually know what they are.
Mass murder, slavery, torture and oppression might be trivial to loyalist stromtroopers, but they're quite a big deal for heroesQuote:You don't know what you're talking about, reduce complex issues down to simplistic sound bites, and in general destroy any constructive or communicative dialogue through your obsessive focus on semantics, trivialities, and absolutes.
Freedom is also and absolute requirement for a good society - so I can see why loyalists might find that kind of absolute to be something they weren't too keen on - absolute power is more their thing
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Quote:There's no such thing - Tyrant is not a legitimate leader, because he's oppressing the people.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Not true, Cole was appointed rule by the UN and is therefore a legitimate dictator.
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Quote:Well that makes it totally ok thenOriginally Posted by Steampunkette
They don't kill Innocent civilians... And they don't enslave anyone, either. They -return- slaves back to their owners, but don't go out and capture any.
And what's one little murder amongst all the other crimes you're committing as a loyalist? It's not like theyre' going to notice one more or one less corspe when they're doing the daily body count of "enemies of the state" that they'd dealt with.Quote:One extrajudicial Execution, though that could be played either way, since your choices are execute a spy or murder a cop to join the resistance.
If you're not against Tyrant, than you're with himQuote:As for propping up a madman: They don't do anything of the sort.
Anyone you arrest has a pretty good chance of being tortured - unless all those torutre areas under the PPD precinct buildings are some kind of theme park or museum.Quote:They don't torture anyone
You are if you don't turn against Tyrant.Quote:or aid or abet Genocide...
I think Wilfully Blind might be a better alignment for those typesQuote:And while the organization might be Lawful evil, individual members can be Lawful Good.
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Quote:There's nothing polite about Tyrant's societyOriginally Posted by Steampunkette
Slavery, Oppression, Murder, Theft, Cruelty... Different members of the government certainly do those things! Of course "Oppression" is pretty much subjective, since some people find the basic rules of a polite society to be oppressive.
And oppession isn't subjective when it's the oppression of a dictatroship
And murder the families of teachers who don't educate the people in the "right" way.Quote:They also educate
Protecting the dictatorship isn't the same as protecting the peopleQuote:protect
Loyalist don't seem to be too hot on providing freedom for the people they're "protecting"Quote:provide for
While damaging their mental health by drugging them to be docile and obedient.Quote:and present health care for their people.
With a third of Tyrant's budget spent on "security", the stromtroopers are certainly a growth industryQuote:Jobs are plentiful
Being a Seer is pretty high up on the list of degrading things you could do to someone.Quote:but the degrading or menial tasks are performed by automata.
It's drinkable, yeah - and Tyrant really wants you to drink it tooQuote:Food and drinkable water are provided
And torture chambers and slaughter houses underneath the streets and roads.Quote:clean streets and roads
The BAF certainly has space for a lot of residents - and all rent-free too.Quote:housing
Indeed it doesQuote:The list goes on and on and on.
Every citizen is a victim fo the dictatorshipQuote:And while individuals might experience the Cruelty or Oppression or Murder or Slavery, most live in a place where all of their needs are provided for them and they're safe. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, don't they?
Maybe if Tyrant gave the people their freedom they wouldn't feel the need to rise up against him?Quote:Maybe if the "Few" would stop breaking the laws of the land there wouldn't be any Slavery, Oppression, Cruelty, or Murder...