Gideon_F

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TomTrumpinski
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Well I can't recall any good examples where a Tank started taunting bad guys AFTER someone went red. Any decent or good tanks that I've played with tend to actively control aggro so that people don't take lethal damage not taunt after they are near dead or closer.

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Gideon, I really love pick-up teams. Since they're not quite as good, generally, as those who play together a lot, I adopted a technique when I scranked on those teams.
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I would concentrate on initially taunting the spawn to keep them around me and then did as much damage as I could while keeping an eye on my teammates' health bars. When I saw a teammate fall into the yellow (usually through their own inexperience more than anything else), I would target through them and taunt the enemy they were focused on.
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Nine out of ten times, this would pull away the guys giving them the most trouble and they'd recover in the breathing space they got.
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So, there are a few of us who have done this. For the most part, it's not necessary in a good team unless things really start to go south.
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On a large team, it's really not as possible now to keep aggro away from everyone on the team and survive at the higher difficulty levels. Therefore, more of the team *are* going to be falling into the yellow and red than they used to.

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To me the taunting seemed to be more an after thought then an actual tanking practice. Reactions that are slow like that seldom save the person in time. This is how I attack a spawn. This is not gospel or a "must do" strategy just the way I work.

1: Quick scan of the spawn. Sappers, Mezzers, Bosses in that order. Pick the target and plot its death in 3 attacks or less.

2: Flank the group or attack from behind. Cones and AoEs will not hit the team if they are launched away from the team. Seen that mistake often where a cone goes through the tank and hits the guys hiding behind him/her.

3: Set up with click powers and Inspirations. Kinda part of the plotting death of your target bit this time the team can see you powering up.

4: Attack the cluster drawing as much aggro as you can handle and usually the rest as well.

4b: View the team as much as possible to see what they are doing. If you see one guy drawing a lot of attention then he is the guy you have to keep an eye on. classic example is a blaster with an AoE and suddenly 3 guys say "Blaster must die". When you see the AoE you know he took aggro so take it back or intercept his "fan club".

5: When you finish attack the next closest thing going towards the team or looking at anything that isn't you.

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Poster: Circeus
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I've responded to the tanker issue - I've played builds myself, described my tactics. I'll gladly try different builds and circumstances...but all in all, I feel a tanker can still Tank.

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And I still call BS. His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?

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I call BS because in his example he didn't do anything my Blaster couldn't do. Strongmen don't have ranged attacks that I can remember so keep just out of melee reach and pepper his buddies with dmg.

If you see someone going after a person and their health goes red blast them and they will turn on you easily enough.

If a decent Blaster can do the same thing Statesman did with little risk then he wasn't doing anything that required a tanker to do successfully.

As for the tanking......

Well I can't recall any good examples where a Tank started taunting bad guys AFTER someone went red. Any decent or good tanks that I've played with tend to actively control aggro so that people don't take lethal damage not taunt after they are near dead or closer.

I got a bit to add.

I was unwilling to run my toggles because that took away endurance I could use for Smashing.....

Then I ran through maps like a berzerker with a migraine.

Wolf Spider Enforcer: I have a weapon pointed at a man's head and I'm in the middle of an interrogation. Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE trotting past like an elephant could be considered an intrusion?

Course he considered a Rage assisted Knockout blow intrusive too.

I was talking to a buddy of mine and got a good explanation of the difference between a Tanker and a Scranker.

A Tanker is there for the long haul. They are prepared to be there as long as the fight lasts. They are prepared for everything that can go wrong and prepare to deal with problems before they happen.

A Scranker looks at a battle as having a death clock. Time is your enemy the longer the battle goes the more they are allowed to hurt you. A scranker wants to end the fight fast and the faster the better. The faster the battle the less things go wrong and the sooner your victory.

If possible I'll help. After all someone has to represent the Scranker division.

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Poster: TomTrumpinski
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You have a team of 7--50s with sk's doing a mission set on rugged. Statesman's sk'd up SEVENTEEN LEVELS. He's missing Incinerate and GFS from his secondary and the majority of the slots that the 50s had, so he's really not doing much damage even if he can hit the reds and purples. I hold that *most* ATs sk'd up 17 levels would be an xp leech in a team like this.
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I consider it a miracle that he survived, let alone tanked after I5, let alone ED.

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Have to disagree there. My SG had what we called "AV nights" pretty much anyone was welcome and we ran AVs. Mr Fontaine had Portal Jockey completed at 33. Basically on AV nights contributing was the only requirement. This let some of the newer players join guys that had faced the AVs several times before.

Once you get SOs at 27 you are essentially the same as you are going to be all the way to 50. In my case at 33 and lower I did not have TF or ET yet with Mr Fontaine. I however did have a solid attack chain with 6 slotted dmg and I used Build up. 3.8x the dmg with the accuracy from build up. This let me hurt anything +3 con or lower. +4 cons never came up.

I was always useful and contributing. I knew what to do to keep aggro and how to keep the AV off balance with knock arounds like AS and jump kick. The higher level does have better powers but the basics used properly will get you through once you have SOs.

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Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster

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I would have had a different strategy myself. I would have had the blasters use targeters. One backs up the SKd Inv/Fire and the other backs up the MA/Inv.

I'd have been on the Mistress or Illusionist with Inv aura running. and have the Empath keep an eye on me.

The fire controller and peacebringer would be the wildcards assisting one of the 3 teams.

Team 1: Main assault draw the alpha and aggro.
Team 2: Assassin squad scrapper and a blaster work well here.
Team 3: Flank attack with fire and blaster largely wiping minions.

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Well, no one was that familiar with their builds.

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That is VERY wrong. You might not be familiar with a new build but you should be very familiar with the powers being used after using them near 50 levels. I've changed builds and there is no adjustment time because each build has the same purpose and powers.

It seems to heavily imply those players unfamiliar were powerleveled States included.

The thing that is truly galling is the lack of differences between Fire, Ice, and Inv

Inv: Better S/L defense, minor SR
Fire: Burn patch, end regen
Ice: Slow, end regen, minor SR to 3-5 dmg types

32 powers.

Inv: 3 minutes of uber followed by 30 seconds of extreme suck.
Fire: Self rez that dmgs nearby foes.
Ice: 30 seconds of head in the sand then rest of body buried beside it.

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Re: Invulnerability seems to be gutted
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From: Statesman
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First - let me comment on what you were fighting. A Warhulk is a Boss - and the Jaegers were minions. A spawn that size wouldn't occur on a solo mission; that's a spawn for approximately 3 to 4 heroes. Bravo on surviving.
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As for the Battleshade mission - what mutilated you? What were your tactics?
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Second - yes, I've played an Invul. Tanker. At all levels. With the changes and suboptimal builds. And I found that I could Tank just fine at invincible.

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An old reply. It appears that the previous statements were accurate from the pathetic standard that he uses for tanking. If I thought that we were tanking from a coward's point of view then by his standards I must be the Incarnate of Ares.

Seriously though. Sad thing is I'm not even a true tank. I'm a Scranker that tanks aggressively through violence. This must be a truly offensive standard to the true tanks.

BTW It was Battlemaiden.

What is even more pitiful in that example is there was a second tank so with any sort of coordination they should have been able to split the aggro and lock it down for the team.

Did he leave the other tank to do the real work of locking down the (Dark) ring mistresses and (Master) Illusionists?

If I was in his shoes and I have been several times I'd target the ring mistresses. They are the most dangerous. The Illusionists are next on the hit list. The reason they take second spot is because they phase shift before they can be dropped blitz style. The mistresses can be dropped fast with an all out blitz. The Illusionists have that 30 second unkillable which means turn and wipe a minion or 2 and then continue dropping the Illusionist.

My Scranker style does not rely on taunt to keep attention on me. I'm there blitzing things taking out enemies. I drop bosses and LTs and the aggro will be mine. In the old days I'd taunt as an exclamation point now I use the Inv aura to back punchvoke.

Tanks I've teamed with would lock down the Mistresses and Illusionists to give controllers and everyone else the openings to lock down and eliminate them. THEN they eliminate minions like Strongmen.

Hell in comic book terms Statesman's strategy would be the same as Superman saying "You guys take on doomsday I'll take on that thug with the broken beer bottle over there". or Wolverine letting The X-Men take on Magneto, Sabretooth, and Blob while taking out a security guard.

Yes they can occupy 17 enemies. They cannot take 17 enemies worth of hits unanswered. Even with the damage mitigation of regen it will be buried under dmg before long.

If I had to and I mean HAD to occupy the enemies I'd aggro a spawn with dragon tail with my MA/SR then haul it out of there before being retaliated on using terrain to keep alive. If they are close I'd use terrain to limit attacks by having them chase me to hit me. If you can keep even a pole between you and them they will not be able to fire on you and will move around it for a clear shot/melee attack.

Breaking Line of Sight and using it to clump enemies was a tactic I learned from a fire tank that used it to maximize the burn patch and is not a beginner strategy. Using that same Strategy as an Inv tanker I set up a clump for Footstomp.

A smart and cagey scrapper can tank 17 enemies but it has to be done very very smartly with little room for error. Even then it can't be done very long because they can't take the unanswered shots a tank can.

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Poster: PorkchopXpress
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I feel sorry for States sometimes.
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He comes here and posts his results, probably in very good faith - and hoping to possibly help us to reach some AT determinations and move forward.
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What he gets is a verbal beatdown that his tanking A) sucked and B) that the AT sucks. Well, both are probably true , but at least he tried. Maybe this will help to promote some future dialog amongst Devs and players about the seemingly widespread discontent amongst the Tankers AT.

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I feel sorrier for the team that invited him expecting him to tank and all he did was target S/L minions (Strongmen) that were the least threat to the team. I mean $deity at least aggro an LT that is a little more dangerous.

I played blasters more aggressively then that and I avoided aggro.

Still when you play with lvl 45-50 beginners that aren't familiar with their chrs including both Inv tankers they did well as could be expected without a tank or strategy. Imagine if they had been playing them during the levels 1 to 44 as well.

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Poster: Myrmydon
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Sorry Tom, but after reading Statesman’s post in this thread, I cannot let is pass without comment.
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WARNING: The post made by Statesman regarding Tanking is a terrible example of Tanker skill. Please do not follow the above method unless you enjoy soloing or being kicked from teams a lot. There are plenty of people out there that will do so, so be warned.
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If this is your example of Tanking, Statesman, then you need serious help. You are playing an Invul/Fire with access to at least two AoEs, a cone, Taunt, and (hopefully) Invinc, and the best you can come up with is 1/3 of the aggro in a 7 player mission set to Rugged??? Did you learn anything at all about Tanking in those 32 levels or is this one of those artificially PLed characters that you Devs play in your test environment? I can surely put forward one thing for the benefit of new Tankers that are looking for advice: Do NOT use this example as your guide to Tanking. I play a Broadsword/Invul Scrapper that can grab aggro and Tank better than you can with the support you want tanks to have now. And that’s WITHOUT the passives that you pretty much destroyed in the last few issues. If I can do that on a Scrapper, why on Earth would I ever bring you to my team? There is a very old saying, States, that pertains to this post of yours here:
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When the pupil is ready, the master will appear
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Are you ready to learn how to Tank, States? There are plenty of us that can show you. I am glad that you have finally come to the forums seeking advice on your skills. Now, post your build so that we can help you and give you the advice you need. Believe me, the first time you really Tank, you really won’t want to go back to what you are doing now. Take our advice and let us help you. Your teams will love you for it. And if you decide to disregard our advice and keep playing this way, then you might as well delete your "Tank" and choose another AT entirely. Your teams would be better off if you did.

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I'd like to add that I can teach the Scranker way as well. The main difference in his approach and my approach is I pick what dies and how quick I will make it happen.

An Inv Scranker doesn't pick the weakest minion he can find that does S/L. A Scranker looks at the mob and picks the biggest threat to the team. If there is an AV guess who I go straight at after hitting haste/rage/build up/conserve power/2-3 lucks/1-3 rage/etc. It isn't going to be a minion. I'll be straight up in the face of anyone from Antimatter to Tyrant.

A cowardly tank is a shame on all the tanks great and small.

Jack is not and never will be a tanker. He can't even comprehend what the term means because there is no willingness to protect the team just take on anything he thinks he can survive.

The example is a joke because he doesn't go after anything that is a risk to him unless someone else has it aggroed. He isn't even a scranker because a Scranker walks up to the biggest baddest thing in the group and throws down.

So What is Statesman?

A cowardly opportunist being powerleveled by his team doing as little as possible to scrape by.

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We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
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End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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Well it does open eyes on tanker roles. We are sudposed to strive to be cowards that take dmg only after the "weaker classes" do. We do not lead the charge or take the alpha. We rely on controllers and defenders because we have been stripped of our pride, concept, and power.

Manticore should have left Statesman dead so he can be remembered as the hero as he used to be not the coward Jack has turned him into.

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Poster: MrYukon
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original responce was a string of vulgarities that would make a sailor attack me with a bar of soap for my mouth.

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Why waste vulgarities on a coward?

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Poster: KaliMagdalene
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i'm suprised no one has brought up the "there should be one melee class" idea again.

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That's a dumb idea anyway.

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Then it is something Jack is planning then.

1: Have you seen this picture and of course what do you think of it. Cuppajo said she was going to send it to you but I never got around to finding out if she did. (Picture links have to be pasted directly into a browser window because Angelfire does not allow remote linking.)

http://www.angelfire.com/d20/gideon_an/Manticore.jpg

2: Same question as #1 with different picture that Cuppajo hasn't seen.

http://www.angelfire.com/d20/gideon_...rtant/EBay.jpg

3: Is there going to be a place where Players can look up info on their favorite archvillians like Mother Mayhem, Maurauder, Chimera, Statesman. (Couldn't resist the reference to the highest lvl (54th) AV there )

4: Simular question as above concerning Trainers, Heroes, and the people that create taskforces.

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*use the unmez (forget name) inspiration after you click a rez inspiration to avoid the dazed effect.

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So true nothing is as dangerous as a smart Blaster with bloodlust. Something on the other team is going to die.

The Golden Rule: If you cannot be hit you cannot be killed.

This may seem overly simplistic and it is but range is both your weakness and strenght. You have to learn how to make it your best friend and defense.

You see a mob if there is anything that can come close to that range stay at your max snipe distance then use a red, build up, aim, and snipe and blow that SOB into next week.

If you are at the 150 mark and the most the bad guys can get is 120 after you sniped the sniper then you will not be killed. This strategy cannot be used if they can get to you however which is why flight can be important.

Here are a few hints

1: Melee is your best friend if you are not the one in melee.

Learn to target through a chr. This is done by clicking their name. Your target will be whoever they are facing. If you help them deal with bad guys even quicker that is a very big plus. Plus you get less aggro then the guy in melee.

2: Never waste attacks.

If you and another person kill the same thing then one of you wasted an attack and enemies live longer. For instance if you team with a scrapper and the 2 of you get a rhythm going you can finish off slivers with weak attacks and as soon as an enemy is taken out you can dbl up on the next one alternating atts.

3: Alternate Build up and Aim.

When taking on a mob more attacks that are beefed up is a lot better then one massive attack because that attack may miss. Though an exception to this is any massive AOE. If I hit a nova I sure as hell want to make sure everything in it dies. I'll gleefully dbl up the 2 there and toss in a stray red too.

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So I was on with my SG on Champion a while ago, and we were doing the Positron TF. At one point, we were ambush right in front of Positron and Valkyrie. So here's all these guys shooting at us, trying to kill us, and Mr. Bigshot "I got my armor upgraded" and Ms. "I have this fancy spear that none of you can get!" are just kinda standing there watching.

THANKS A LOT, LEGENDARY HEROES!

Seriously, though, it would be cool if the trainers got some sort of automated power similar to the police drones. There's just something wrong about the eight most famous heroes in all of Paragon city standing there watching you get pounded on.

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All that crap is grey to me, no XP.

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Hahahahaha. Best reply Ever!!

I love this thread hehehe. I have 2 rules which has been expanded to 3 now.

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Rule 1: Hide behind the Scrappers and Tanks.

Rule 2: If there is no Scrapper or Tank hide behind a wall or the mission door.

Rule 3: When in Melee see Rule 1 and 2.

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I've played a MA/SR to 50 so you might as well say I played a "blapper" already.

Solo Play tactics.

NEVER!! EVER!! give up range. You have range and you sure as hell don't want to ever give it up. If you can snipe a troll from half a mile up then good for you. Always take the snipe then get the hell away if they can come after you. If they can't come after you then it really sucks to be them doesn't it hehehehehe

Always plan your approach and escape. Nothing will face plant you faster then running around a corner and getting jumped by a mob.

Team tactics.

If you have a strong offensive line then plan the first strike. You can target and dmg something severly so pick what dies first. Taking out the guys separated thins the herd. Do NOT snipe a mob because they will run past teammates to get to you.

When using heavy knockback by all means plan it so the guys go sailing at the tanks and scrappers. Pretty much the equivalent of kicking a rabbit to the wolves.

Study the team as you play. A blaster can be damn deadly supporting the frontline and playing squishy defense. Figure out your role and adapt to it. Always assume you are playing squishy defense after all you are a squishy.

If the team is sloppy in protecting the squishies then YOU protect the squishies. There will be fewer enemies going after the backline unless they heavily draw aggro. If they heavily draw aggro then you do not know this person and should not be anywhere near him/her. I'm sorry but I can get myself killed all by myself and don't need any extra help.

If the team can lock aggro well enough that you don't have half a mob playing smash the squishies then support the scrappers and tankers. A scrapper or Tanker should be drawing more aggro so drop their opponents from as far away as possible. From previous experience as a scrapper I like it when things are getting killed that are attacking me. I can't see any scrapper complainging when the thing he is attacking dies. Though don't make him waste attacks. That WILL piss him/her off because they could have used that attack on a new opponent. Once this strategy is used Scrappers will leave you the slivers to deal with and easy kills are good kills.

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Poster: TJ_Solomon
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage
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There is no display of a Rage timer, I don't know many players that keep timers on other peoples powers.

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True but you don't have to have a timer. If a tanker is not attacking or taunting he is AFK or in the 10 second phase. You may not know the exact time but you can generally get a feel for when the tankers rage is about to go to the penalty phase.

Teammates should be more aware. As a scrapper I keep an eye on the weaker members and head off threats. I don't have to be told. Blasters should know when to draw aggro and when not to. That was a case of drawing aggro when he/she shouldn't have.

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Poster: SablePhoenix
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage
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That 10 seconds is plenty of time for the blaster to peel aggro of the two Freak Tanks off you and end up faceplanted. I have experienced it firsthand. Rage is not fine the way it is.

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True and I agree with the comment.

Think on this though. That Blaster peeled the aggro off you while you were in the 10 sec phase. If the blaster had of been paying better attention He would have made sure you could keep the aggro by keeping track of the rage timer. Tanker stops fighting let him reclaim aggro when he is out of it and recover end for the 10-15 seconds before letting loose. If he doesn't then he is responsible.

Solutions

Hell have rage reduce your dmg to 0 when it ends for 10 seconds. Have Taunt no longer considered an attack.

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Poster: ClearNinja2000
Subject: Re: Changes to Rage

I personally find two aspects of this whole "rage issue" particularly offensive.

1.) That it was released, even though it was deemed "too harsh". As has been said, it's been a banner month for Inv/SS Tankers.

2.) The soft-shoeing around the issue. This is a Nerf, okay? It wasn't "re-balanced to help non-hardcore players". It certainly wasn't to help the Super-Strength Tankers out there. It was a nerf, so call it a nerf. Come on the boards and say "Hey, we think Rage is over-powered, so we're nerfing it."

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Gotta agree. A Tanker is a guy/girl that is sudposed to be beat on by damn near everything. Give them a power that leaves them nearly no defense and no ability to attack. Well only the nutcases will use it or guys using tankers as scrappers like me.

Now I officially have 2 chrs that have a total endurance wipe that pretty much say "turn your head and cough this is routine exam".

The difference between my MA/SR and my SS/Inv is my tanker is expected to be in combat the whole battle. A tanker having to run to restart his defenses seems to be defeating the idea of the archtype where they are the last to run covering allies.

Likely there will be a short patch with a few changes. A rough time to be a SS/Inv though. Though why you would change something to something you have to fix it is beyond my understanding.

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If they did play theyd make tanks flavorful, and tankful...and scrappers scrappy...and blasters kill stealing retards....oh wait they already are.

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LMAO. I get the feeling you dislike Blasters.