GenericVillain

So does anyone here know how long the aoe immobs for brute last? Recharge is 32 seconds, what's the duration?

I'd still like someone to tell me where I'm going wrong with my numbers. I'm probably messing up somewhere, but I'd like to know where and what step. Here's my post

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HOw exactly is everyone getting their i7 numbers? By the way I remember the forumla

A +3 boss has a 1.15 rank mod, a 1.3 accuracy mod, rad infection does .4372*.65*.7= .2

1+.15+.3 * (.5-.2)
1.45 * (.3)
43.5% chance to hit for a +3 boss in i7

Now, before the nerf, with boss tohit and rank tohit bonus
rad infection does 0.5187*.65*.7=.256
boss bonus=15%
rank bonus=27%
50%+15%+27%-25.6%=66.4% tohit for the boss

Correct me if I'm wrong with my numbers, but this is a huge boost from now to i7.

EDIT: Saw where I messed up in one calc, but I'm not convinced about i6 numbers yet tho, pre this nerf


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EDIT: Fixed an error. Numbers are more in favor of this as a buff than before.

HOw exactly is everyone getting their i7 numbers? By the way I remember the forumla

A +3 boss has a 1.15 rank mod, a 1.3 accuracy mod, rad infection does .4372*.65*.7= .2

1+.15+.3 * (.5-.2)
1.45 * (.3)
43.5% chance to hit for a +3 boss in i7

Now, before the nerf, with boss tohit and rank tohit bonus
rad infection does 0.5187*.65*.7=.256
boss bonus=15%
rank bonus=18%
50%+15%+18%-25.6%=57.4% tohit for the boss

Correct me if I'm wrong with my numbers, but this is a huge boost from now to i7.

EDIT: Saw where I messed up in one calc, but I'm not convinced about i6 numbers yet tho, pre this nerf

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You tell that to a team and see how they respond. Most likely, you'll hear stuff like, "Do we get points for people fleeing?"

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If you are fighting one guy, he's prolly running anyways.

If you are fighting a team, that team just became that much easier and your team can get their points that much easier.

If yer the one running away, I doubt your team will be very happy either with you.

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Wait...People still take taunt?

How cute!

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Taunts a highly useful tool. Apparently not so useful in pvp, but it's still quite useful in pve.

Anyone that claims they are having accuracy problems should get herostats and record their attack, firing it a good number of times against some specified enemy. Percieved accuracy is so influenced by your state of mind that without numbers, "I miss a lot" doesn't really mean anything.

Missing 4 times in a row that one time means nothing, hitting 10 times without missing that one time also means nothing, streaks happen all the time. What matters is the average over time, and for that, you need a lot of swings.

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Having 2 Level 50 Tanks and a Level 42 Tank, I say detoggling is just fine. Its part of the game, deal with it

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I think you should read his post again before taking such an offensive tone.

You'd find he's asking if it's true if detoggling is going away, and he states that the only way he can pvp against brutes/tankers is by detoggling them, he's not saying anything about how he hates detoggling.

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A 10% enhanceble heal with a 40% unenhanceable Regeneration for 90 Secs?

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This would actually be much weaker than it currently is. With no real defenses to go on, we'd basically just have a much weaker heal as the regeneration wouldn't be that good without defenses or other regen to stack on.

I'd much rather they just remove the animation time problems and increase the heal to 25% base. Then I'd be fine with it.

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So, you've never faced a +2 or +3 Freakshow, Warwolf, or Longbow boss? You've never faced an AV? You've never faced a Giant Monster?

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I have with teammate support and some of those solo (+3 freakshow are nothing to write home about.... the bosses, sure they do crapton of damage, but they wait a year inbetween their attacks too, so it's not 25% health per 2 seconds), and if those guys do damage that fast, I'm not going to kill them in that amount of time anyways.

Anyways I said consistantly doing 33% health every 2-3 seconds. Burst damage is one thing, but if you are literally losing 100% of your life every 8 seconds, there's no way you are going to win. Considering that one attack animation is 33% of your life gone... yeah.

But I'll give you that Reconstruction is as good if not better than aid self. It's for a regen set so something would be wrong if it wasn't.

I remember using Dark Regeneration yesterday. Now there's a real self heal. I think you are probably right that compared to heals like that, aid self isn't overpowered. But dull pain is almost weak compared to aid self or even healing flames, in terms of healing over time, although DP has different benefits, it's hard to even include it in the same selfheal category.

I'd argue it's the same heal, but more effective when combined with resists and defenses and natural regen rates, over say even a blaster with the same hit points, and that'd be why it's better, in a way, for tankers over blasters, much like you can't consider resists and defense separately, but you have to combine them to get the full effect.

Basically put, if you are taking less damage over time, your heal fixes a higher percent of that damage over time, thus it's higher mitigation for a tanker over a blaster.

Or, if 1000 damage comes at your tanker, and you mitigate 500 of that as a tanker and 0 of that as a blaster, and the tanker heals for 140, and the blaster heals for 100, the tanker's heal mitigates 28% of that, whereas the blaster's heal only mitigates 10%.

And thus, the heal for the tanker is 2.8 times better in this scenario than the blaster's heal.

I'd argue that the tanker is supposed to take on many more enemies than a blaster at once tho, and all those bonuses together aren't enough for what the tanker has to face vs what the blaster has to face. But that takes a lot of math I don't have to prove.

EDIT:
Which, is quite possible that you are saying this, but I think castle said that too in his post, that it's the same heal, but when added in with resists gives the tanker more of a benefit. At least I think he's saying that.

Yer wrong, obviously you want to make a sonic/kin corrupter for real damage output

All the fun of capped damage, with scorge! With a higher base damage I think, but I dunno about that.

I think I'd still rather drop one recharge for a heal, at least for my /fire brute. I'd rather be attacking more than healing more, even if it's more efficent that way, plus I have 2 self heals running (healing flames and aid self) and often hasten too, so I'm in general not going to need the extra healing.

In theory anyways. If I find I'm not regenning fast enough, I'll prolly switch back. I think reconstruction is still better though. 3 heals 3 recharge it heals more than aid self, with out the interrupt, much faster animation, and as fast recharge as aid self with one recharge, although add in hasten or another recharge and aid self is clearly faster, although I'm not sure which one would heal more over time.

Obviously tho, the answer is to take both

The inherient weapon shouldn't matter... it's like 5-10% higher accuracy. In order to beat out a floored defense from purples, it'd need something like 2000% inherient accuracy.

I have floored out infernal, but in the cov side, so I don't know if that's different. But I was able to pop 3 purples and easily not get hit.

But then again, Luminary as a Hero I was completely unable to floor with purples or even affect.

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I have Aid Self on my Invulnerability Scrapper. If I use Aid Self while standing in a fight, by the time I can actually attack again I have always lost almost exactly as much health as I gained as the foe beat on me while I stood there animating the power.

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If you are losing 25% of your health in about 2-3 seconds consistantly (40% heal, but with dull pain running, the heal is 25%, you are fighting guys you shouldn't be fighting, and nothing is going to save you. You'd be dead in about 10 seconds, and that's hardly enough to take out your enemies.

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And as has been pointed out many, many times... none of the other self-heals are

a) Interruptable
b) Have incredibly long, no-action-allowed animations

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Except for healing flames (for b), but then again, you did admit it needed a buff, and the devs did too.

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Yes, you can make Aid Self near uninterruptable by slotting two interrupt reducers in it. That's two slots you can't use on recharge.

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It has a 20 second base recharge, why would you want to put that many recharges in it? It already comes up faster than most self heals fully slotted, unslotted. And still, with 1 recharge and hasten, it comes up about once every 10 seconds. Even without hasten, it still has a 15 second recharge. That's pretty darn good.

Ah okay, awesome


This step here
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HPBenefit = (1-1/1.6)) * 100


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Is the forumla I had basically, or put another way, I was basically saying

HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100))))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/(((100/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100))))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/(((1)*(1+(HPBuff/100))))) * 100
HPBenefit = (1-1/(1+(HPBuff/100))) * 100

My super simplified version... but as you know, I like my super simplified versions

Yours is definately the better full version, and I like those too, for reference. All we need to do now is combine Arcana's monster defense equation with your hp benefit equation and make some kind of overall survability factor equation, and I think we'd have the one equation to rule them all (tm)

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HPBenefit = (1-1/(((RHP/100)*(1+(HPBuff/100)))/1)) * 100

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That / 1 doesn't change anything, was that a typo? Trying for example hp buff = .6 and rhp = 1

(1-1/( ((RHP/100) *(1+(HPBuff/100))) / 1)) * 100
(1-1/( ((.001) * (1+(.006))) / 1)) * 100
(1-1/( ((.001) * (1.006)) / 1)) * 100
(1-1/( (0.001006)/1))*100
(1-1/( 0.001006))*100
(1-994)*100
-993 * 100
-99300

I think I'm missing something or misreading your formula or something.

Ya you are right. I remember thinking that a 100% health boost wouldn't be the same as 100% more resistance....so the real resistance boost (and heal resistance) would be 1 - (Old HP / New HP)... so no change = 0% boost, double your hp = 50% boost, and a 50% boost in hp is a 33% boost in resists. And a 60% boost gives that 37.5% boost you were talking about.

At any rate, I'm both glad to know that it doesn't scale and sad to know, because that means aid self isn't as broken as I thought, but it also means it's not going to be as effective for my tanker as I thought

EDIT: IF you just know the hp boost, another version of the forumla is

1 - (1 / newhp%), where if you have a boost of x% newhp% = 1+newhp%.... so, with a 60% boost

Effective Resists = 1 - (1 / 1.6) = 1 - .625 = .375 = 37.5% effective resists, and 37.5% heal resists.

I think that's a better formula, because you only need to know the benefit you are getting.

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HP buffs in a similar maner also make you more resistant to both, damage and external heals, PLUS they make you resistant to self heals.

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I'm pretty sure that heals that heal you for a % of your life, which all self heals do, scale from dull pain, as does regeneration, which would mean from just your own point of view, a DP health boost by 60% would be like 60% resists that multiply on top of your real resists, although you resists straight number heals.

I'm not positive about this, however, and I may be wrong as I can't test it.

EDIT:

I should clarify what I mean by multipling on top of your real resists. What I mean is if you have 50% resistance, and 60% pseudo resists from dull pain, in a way you have 1/2 * .4 = .2 = 80% resists. But it's only true as long as you don't take external heals into account and you are comparing you vs your old self.

I dunno, something just doesn't feel right calling the hp boost resists, but the numbers work out anyways.

EDIT#2: Corrected bad math. Said 60% resists meant you took 1/4 total damage

Most likely, if they nerf it, they'll mess with the interrupt, make it less enhanceable or something, so that it isn't so impossible to stop once slotted. That'd honestly be how I'd balance it, if I were to do such a think. But at the cost of a whole pool power and 2 power slots just for healing yourself, I think it's actually fairly balanced. It's just that certain heals are a bit unbalanced.

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Oh and *does the happy dance cause a red name replied to him*

It sucks because it's a replacement for a real 9th tier uber power, which regen also has (instant healing... maybe mog too, prolly not from what I hear), not because the concept of self-resses suck.

According to hero builder
Blazing aura = .6111 fire
Icicles = .5556 s/l
Mud Pots = .4161, with a slow and immobilize component

Hero builder has been wrong before, but if it's right, that extra .06 brawls is negligible, and mud pots has great effects for the whole .2 brawls lower damage. I've never paid enough attention to my aura, but I'll say it does feel to be around 1 brawl, although my character is a brute, so I may have a higher brawl index for that (but I doubt it). Oh well.

On the subject of heals, dull pain is good for absorbing alpha, but it's not very good for sustaining you in a fight, unless the mobs have problems beating your regen. Healing flames is decent enough to last you a bit, but you won't absorb alphas with it nearly as well.

But again, if you take into account aid self, the dull paining tanker has a 60% better aid self, whereas the healing flame tanker doesn't.

So I think fire tankers lose out in that part of the heal aspect too, once you take pool powers into consideration.

So what's to balance out lower mitigation over all, worse self heals, no knockback resists, and a useless 9th tier power? Firey Embrace apparently, but I honestly doubt that. However, Blazing aura is no where near strong enough to justify it as a balancing point, burn is useless, and that's the damage powers right there.

So I dunno, I guess having firey embrace is in the devs eyes worth all the cons.

At any rate, I'm enjoying the fire/fire brute side, but I won't complain if they end up buffing us up eventually.

Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.

I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

I'm confused, and that's a good indication I'm wrong about something.... so to clarify

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Bottom line: If you factor base tohit into only Defense, then you can't compare Defense and Resistance. If you factor them into both, you can't combine them. The only time this is generally a good idea is when you are calculating net damage, and aren't going to compare the mitigation numbers directly at all.

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So, if I get you right, you are saying that if I say 25% defense is like 75% mitigation, I can't compare that with 50% resistance, unless I include the tohit, which makes that 75% as well, but if I do that, I can't obviously say .25 * .25 = my combined number.

If I got you right, I don't think I was doing that, I was puting the tohit into just my defense, then combining it with the resistance through multiplication to get my overall mitigation. (i.e. (.5 - .25) * .5 = new number)).

But I'm not sure if you were address me, or star, or just in general. You quoted me, so I'm not sure if there was a mistake I was making that you were addressing or what. My mention of squishies having 50% mitigation was in relation to my other numbers that had tohit figured in too, but I dunno.

So in your opinion, is this working as intended or needs a buff? Because healing flames is less effective than aid self, as you pointed out.

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Also, the formula you state is not constant and require to know what enemy you are fighting

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As far as I know, the only time my formula breaks down is when the enemy has a natural accuracy bonus, a rank bonus, or a level bonus, or some kind of tohit buff/defense debuff, but that's because it's simplified. Even then, that 50% is still 50% in even the extended all-emcompassing i7 defense function.

I wouldn't include the mitigation that comes from having a higher hp base, I would however include the health regen that comes from having a higher hp base. The higher hp is only useful for some math that shows how fast your character would go down in x situation, not really for overall damage mitigation.

It allows you to get a general idea of how much damage you'd mitigate against the average minion. Admittedly I'm starting to see how having a mitigation separated from enemies is useful.

To be honest, when I talk about damage mitigation, I usually like to talk about the average minion because it's more of a real world example. A sort of, "What do these numbers mean anyways?" kind of example. 33% resistance, for example, means very little until you see the numbers that show it reducing a 300 damage attack to 200.

That's personal preference on my part tho.