G_Tanker

I recommend mace, stone or ice.

I do not recommend fire... I have a 50 dark/fire/pyre that is fairly gimp. I'm getting ready to IO her out to insane defense levels, but the lack of mitigation in fire/pyre is noticable.

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Defenders have some great abilities to keep groups a live and having a good defender in your group can let you do some amazing things ... but they're not gods and if they're spending all their time keeping the party up, they're not going to be as efficient as a tank that can quickly herd aggro and then focus on damage.

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Couple of nitpicks;

A) Scrapper with taunt aura therefore > tank if the scrapper can handle the damage, no? Since they can also gather agro for the brief period the mobs live, and do more damage? (I'm asking it rhetorically; I already do this on my invuln brute and scrapper)

B) Static debuffs (tar patch, sleet, freezing rain) are tremendously powerful in that they can be double stacked with themselves with enough recharge, but on the flipside are weak because if you're in a moving group it's hard to have them up every spawn moving spawn to spawn - therefore you need to herd multiple spawns together or regularly pull to a killspot to get maximum usage from them. This is actually an argument more to use them against 54's - 52's just die too fast to get good usage out of them. Just my observation from these runs - I feel like in a 52 run with my style group half the debuffs go to waste because things evaporate too quickly.

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Freedom

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There is your problem

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Spoken like a person who doesn't claim their home server as Freedom.

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*shrug* I like that I can find a lot of people on freedom. I can make up for the level 42 invuln tanker that ONLY runs invincibility and acrobatics ("so I don't get knocked down") with the extra defs and conts that are available on a high population server that thinks kin + stoner + emp = "team"

I view SD as more OP than weak.

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My standard answer to every person who asks a variant of "What Defender do I roll next?" is Dark Miasma. The obvious exception would be those people who just did Dark, but that seems to be a surprisingly small number of people.

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Oh yeah I've totally seen hand picked Tankerless teams in action that make me wonder why I play a Tanker in the first place.

But G_Tanker has been maintaining that he's doing this with PUGs, which is astounding to me (even moreso when you considered we're talking about speed as well as survivability for a farm).

Now it might just be the server I play on (Justice) ... I'm lucky to get the right mix of DPS to control much less being able to handpick the AT combos that I'd prefer. If he isn't having that issue (say playing on Freedom or Champion since they have higher pops) then that would explain to me how he can get these groups on the fly and why L54 farms might not be as onerous as they have been for me from a speed point of view (survivability usually isn't an issue running a couple of Tankers through those).

BTW I've noticed a proliferation of really squishy Tankers coming up through the AE lately .... L50 Stone and Invuln Tankers should not be dropping dead before my Shield Tanker (which never dies) or even more sadly, my Spines/Fire Scrapper.

Then again I've seen a plethora of brand new players (to the game itself) as well so that would explain it I guess.

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I play on freedom, virtue, and pinnacle with some characters scattered all over.

This morning we had 2 rad defenders + 2 kin defenders tankless (and controllerless) for a while vs 53s - not pretty, but we were fine for the period where we looked for a tank (lead kicked the afk tanker). Earlier I was in a team vs. 52's (first run, second run upped it to 53's) with a 15 dark, 18 rad, and a 40ish plant/rad and 40ish fire/kin which went tankless and did extremely well... although it was pretty amusing to see the 45 blaster scared to try something tankless.

*shrug* Neither of these teams were with me leading, I just showed up and did work. Second one was at a decent pace, first one was pretty slow even with tanker. Both were vs 53's.

As far as terribly built (& played) tanks go, yes, there are lots out there... which is part of why I don't look for tanks until I'm filling that last slot or two, at which point they're optional.

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Can any tankers out there attest to this?

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Doesn't matter what AT I'm playing, I'm usually working with a diva if they're at the tank slot.

Explaining to a tanker that they need to stay 10'+ away from my scrapper so our two taunt auras each net seperate mobs in a double herd situation is pointless. Divas want all the agro. They want it to the point where they forget there's a cap, run over to take more agro, and the mobs they left behind fall off their cap and kill squishies. I've got a pretty large bias against the tanker AT in general because they spend more time seeking (pointless) personal glory instead of working with a team.

I have a kat fire and I'm wondering whether to swap it for a broadsword...

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I just don't get how your whole team isn't wiped constantly (assuming a full group and full spawns). What are the average pack sizes? Are you pulling in 2-3 at a time or the whole pack?

(I'm not doubting you btw .... I'm genuinely interested)

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Typical spawn is 11 or 12, and hostage guarding is 5, so usually pulling either 5, 10, 12, 17, 22, or 24... yes, entire spawns at a time (stragglers come along after the main spawn hits the team)... I try to keep around 20 in camp.

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I'm curious as well. Do you assemble teams 'like the pug STFs' (we need this and that and that)?

Because on Kruunch's mission any 30+ team can quickly dispatch the bosses as long as there's a Tanker or two (when my 28 Tanker went over the aggro cap on his mission the squishies started dying, so we called another Tanker and it was ok).

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... really, a RO network member is asking how you kill +4's without a tank?! If the 54's are eating your SO invuln, just get a defense buff to get you to 45%.

For team creation, it's a pug, you get what is available and what fits the need. I aim first for 4 -res debuffs if I can find them, and that gives me a lot of options. I like to have a kin. I don't look for emps much - though usually there's spare emps and kins floating around. I try to get at least 2 dedicated damage dealers, preferably of the AOE kind, and I prefer scrappers, but a mix is fine. I can dip into the extremely low levels for buffer/debuffers at times.

*snip long post since that wasn't the point*

Long story short, even against +4's, debuffs have a *huge* impact, most especially when stacked. I'm sure there are more efficient ways to do things, and mind you I primarily put together PUGS for this, but it's worked for me. The only hard data point I have is some 50 herostat'd a run at 340K inf/min iirc, and that was not a terribly optimized team.

Anyhoo. It works for me, so I do it. I do not advocate building a team of damage & tank + 1 emp + 1 kin and trying to kill 54's - it just takes forever. I'm sure you could optimize a team to kill 52's faster - it's the nature of the purple patch, but I've been quite satisfied with the speeds I've leveled my toons at.

If you really want to melt 54's, look for debuffers... tankers (all melee, really) are completely optional in my experience, but a solid taunt aura (or 2-3 depending on your groups' makeup/skill and penchant for fighting 50-60 at a time) can be useful for grouping them up. Of course, a smart toggle puller with some form of a soft slow or hard immob on the team can do nearly as good a job in my experience.

54 Boss farms are *really* slow if you build around tanks and dps, in my experience - to melt content and surpass the effects of the purple patch you need heavily stacked debuffs. 52's aren't as slow, but I find better exp in 54's when I take the time to put a team together. I wouldn't do 54's for ticket farming, but I'm not much of a farmer anyhoo.

Just my experiences, fwiw.

Elec Melee. Time to make room for 1-2 more scrappers in my trays...

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First, let me say a couple of things. This thread is not about me personally, and insults and denigration will not be tolerated. I have already notified the moderators, accusing someone of trolling is against the forum rules.

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I'd argue that this thread is more about your inexperience and idealism than it is about defender issues. You have a vision for what your FF/En MAN build should do in comparison to a scrapper in solo play - that's lovely, but you'd be much better off just jumping on a team and actually utilizing your strengths instead of weaknesses, or rolling a more solo friendly (dark, rad, storm) defender to solo with. I am trying to give advice, but I have limited patience for the idea that your defender needs to be buffed to compete with your scrapper when your scrapper has (and will continue to have!) no chance of competing on a larger team with the defender's contribution where you have no other defense buffs. They're different AT's, they play differently, they contribute differently - and the defender AT is more powerful, by far, in my opinion. (I have numerous IO'd out scrappers, fwiw). Not my ideal game design, but it is entertaining.

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But it was fun to be on a pure scrapper lock team for over an hour straight.

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Yep, that's more or less what I'm after. It's always fun to be on a stomping team that knows what it's doing

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An ITF with all scrappers could be rather interesting.. especially if they're high-end scrappers... you can essentually split up and chase mission objectives solo (or duo-ing).

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Given I have multiple scrappers that can essentially solo the ITF up to the AV's at the end of missions 3 & 4, I figure it would just be all around good times, not some sort of mind bending challenge

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P.S. - SD/SS would have survivability issues against an AV I would imagine.

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Why? SS/SD Brutes handle AVs just fine. If your equivalent Tank has problems, that doesn't really point to the set as the source.

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SD has the same issue all defense sets have (even before a debuff or +tohit AV) - susceptibility to streaks. You can mitigate with a self heal (aid self / siphon life) or you can roll the dice. Given the higher hp and resists tanks enjoy with shield mitigation, I imagine a shielder would be in good shape even w/o a self heal. Resistance does a good job of mitigating incoming damage so your natural regen can counter it, though.

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I'm with you. More power to NCSoft if it keeps their bottom line from shrinking as the years tick by, but NCSoft, [u]Please, please add a better way for people to get pick up groups going for non-AE missions![u]

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I think the LFG system could use an overhaul.

I like short TF's, and am always game for an ITF. I'll be moving scrappers to test.

If people want to scrap-TF on Freedom, Virtue or Justice I can probably accommodate.

I'll copy some scrappers to test when I get a chance in hopes we do something along those lines.

Pity I just moved and don't have internet set up at the new place or I'd be in... would love to see another all-scrapper ITF.

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I am likely in full agreement with you that defenders should be able to self-target with buffs, I never understood that design decision - but the defender AT doesn't suffer much for it outside of solo, and bring incredible value to a team.


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30% def all (perma) hits the Soft cap with PowerbuildUp
900% regen (perma with hasten) Plus anoth 900% almost perma
1000% recovery boost
13 Mag mez resist (perma)

Plus a damage boost that brings damage scale up to 1.

Thats a self-targeting empath right there, which explains why you can't self target those buffs.

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Right, but I mean the original design decision. Had the powersets been originally designed and balanced with the idea that the empath can self-target buffs, I think gameplay would have been drastically different and buffs/debuffs weaker - not quite the insane powerhouse they are now. That said, I very much enjoy the insane powerhouse they are now

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By diminishing returns, I mean the more of something you have the less benefit you get. That is, full effect from the first buff (enhancement, whatever), then less from the next and so on. I thought that was how it worked (made sense to me...), but I guess not.

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I drop one tar patch, -30% resistance. My teammate drops a second, -60% resistance. My team's damage (in a resistance debuff free environment with no resistances) goes up by 30% on the first one, but only +23% on the second one (1.6/1.3 < 1.3/1.0).

No, there aren't diminishing returns, there are things like caps (45% softcap to defense, 300% to -resist, 300% to +dmg for most AT's) that you move linearly toward. You might get 'less' of a relative bonus because you started at a higher point, but the debuff/buff itself does not decrease in potency. Two FF shields will stack with identical numbers, except that with 2 half knowledgeable FF players you're well over the cap by then.

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Silveroach is a rad/sonic Defender. Those are both debuffing sets. Silverican is a Corruptor, and I really haven't played them much. It appears to be Fire/Traps. Traps has many powers that benefit the Corruptor. In other words, these are power sets that the Defender benefits from, which we've already established are not as disadvantaged (if at all).

Defenders that debuff their foes apparently do fine. I'm not sure I agree that they're fine, but they certainly do better than the alternative, Defenders that buff. Defenders that buff generally can't benefit from their own buffs. That seems to me to be a problem, if not THE problem.

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Let me paraphrase: "DEFENDERS DO FINE. Except the one I'm playing right now. This AT is broken!"

I am likely in full agreement with you that defenders should be able to self-target with buffs, I never understood that design decision - but the defender AT doesn't suffer much for it outside of solo, and bring incredible value to a team.

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Pwnbringer's response is spurious at best.
The thread has been remarkably civil and, I think, productive. I hope we can refrain from any further pointless posts.

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*sigh* Your posts have been pretty pointless. Go do some research. It amazes me you didn't know about GM and AV soloing. It shocks me that you think defenders are weak, except that you are clearly trying to be a solo powerhouse on a team oriented character.

You have a terrible solo build on a primary that is terrible for solo on an AT that is team-oriented. The AT that is the best stacking AT in the game and melts content when you get a few of them together. The AT that Castle claimed made difficult content look game breakingly easy in reference to some of the things Repeat Offenders have done.

Really... there is not a lot to say. Start teaming on your FF so you don't have two wastes of power picks in your shields, or respec and drop them for better solo skills, or pick a new char to solo with. Stop trolling for defender buffs on the basis that you don't know what you're doing with yours.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "force multiplier".

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Defender on team of 8 casts tar patch with no other debuffers. Each member of the team does ~30% more damage from -30% resist debuff (which is much harder to cap than +dmg buff). Do the math.

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My character IS built to solo. I did skip the team stuff. I will admit, and readily, that this is a bit of a concept build (I'll post it below), but the fact remains that he can neither do damage nor avoid damage, and that is what this game boils down to.

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Your character, with 4 powers and 8 spent slots, could bring 44.5% defense to a team (albeit only 20% to himself). That's an absolutely ludicrous amount of safety.

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ITF and RWZ are late-game, and I've already said that the defensive numbers for this character are decent in the late game. The problem exists largely at all earlier levels.

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Early game sucks for everyone but scrappers and blasters, in my experience. Tanks have terrible DPE ratios and crap defense, controllers and defenders do weak damage. But the buff/debuff sets are very strong from the get go ... unfortunately you can't use two of your strongest powers (bubbles) solo.

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I'd love to know what Ginat Monster you're soloing. I've never seen ANY character of any class solo a GM. I'm not calling shenanigans, but it IS very hard to believe, and if true hardly stands for typical behaviour.

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Yeesh, it's not exactly difficult.

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If you're doing 160+ damage, what level are you doing it at? What are other classes able to do at that level? How much more defense do they have? How much more health? My problem is that I'm seeking parity.

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No blueside AT except controllers is even remotely on parity with defenders for stomping content in this game.

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Defenders have less offense, less defense (though this is being debated here) and less health. If we allow that their defense is higher, it's been paid for, either by lower offense OR lower health. As it is, BOTH conditions exist.

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I had a dark and a rad go into a mission with 3 scrappers and a grav controller at level 8, vs huge spawns of level 9-10 council. A scrapper pulled and wiped the team before the rad got ther eand while the dark was afk.

The rad and dark went up a level and duo'd three large spawns (at level 8) while the 3 scrappers and controller struggled with one spawn below. Sure, we had sands of Mu, that made for an easier time killing a lot at once.

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Again, however, I'm not seeing the high defense that people are claiming.

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You're playing a powerset that gives more than half its defense to other players. Total, it puts your teammates within a hair of the softcap (w/manuevers) while giving you a hefty 20% defense. Ridiculously strong at defense.

I could go on... but it seems rather pointless. What you should do is look up what all-defender teams do, and stop feeling entitled to great solo power while playing one of the least solo-friendly AT's coupled with one of the worst solo-oriented primaries.

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I said Oh well see I was debuffing the +4 mobs to hit by almost 50% and their defense by 50% but I had to shut that off to heal..

I said then I was debuffing the damage they did to the team by 25% and increasing our damage by 30% but then I had to shut that off to heal...

Oh then I was taking down their recharge by about 75% but then you know I had to support and just use my heal...

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Keep in mind the purple patch; many debuffs are at 48% effectiveness vs. +4's. I typically stack 3-4 debuffers in my 54-melting missions.

Other than that, Nice Job!

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And I was particularly impressed with Celeste Cat's “tanking”. Kept ending up in the middle of mobs with all the aggro (apparently intentionally) and also kept the healing Nictus busy. I knew Katana/Invulnerability could be good, but damn! Maybe I need to pull my Broad Sword/Invulnerability out of retirement.

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My elec/inv brute and fm/inv scrapper both view the ITF as a (fun filled frenetic) walk in the park - just softcap to S/L and the only things that will trouble you are the dwarves/novas and nicti. Invinc is a great taunt aura, I use it to tank ITF's, boss farms, etc...