Frosticus

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The best you can actually get from scourge is about 20.7% bonus damage and thats while fighting the biggest of the biggest HP bags in the game: GMs. And this assumes you are soloing them, too, so also an inflated number.

The link to my experiment can be found here.

Depending what you are fighting, the bonus is minimal, against even level minions its just about 7%, note this may be better against higher level minions but it requires a lot of level jump for a minion to equate the Lt, who gets about 11% out of scourge.

The flaw with a simple formulaic analysis of scourge (as I attempted to describe in my guide) is that although you may get 21.25%, in practice, even the weakest of attacks will make your target jump from something like 40% to dead or 25% to dead, this makes the optimal scenario impossible to achieve against anything but GMs, or perhaps the new Reinchsman encounter, or extremely resistant foes.

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I'll concede to the burst killing factor of minions and lts.

However even without scourge factored in, corruptor still ends up being 4% to 16% higher damage when using the same sets. Toss in your 7% for scourge and we're talking a minimum of 11% to 23% that is including the +dmg/-Res debuffs factored in for both ATs. If the idea was that defender +Dmg/-Res is supposed to fill the gap some between corruptors and defenders in damage, it fails heavily.

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The only place it fails (if at all) is when solo and it is generally only by a few percentage points. The idea was never that stronger buff/debuff of defs would close the gap until they are producing equitable damage. The idea is that as a whole the stronger buff/debuff puts them into a similar degree of risk and reward. Defs tend to be slower, but more survivable.

Whatever balance gap may exist (very debatable) on teams those few percentage points evaporate when you have 7 other teammates benefiting from an additional 7.5% -res (EF) and an additional 5% +dam each, or being 10% less likely to hit due to stronger RI.
(7.5% x 7 people x 100 damage each = extra 52.5 damage that the corr has to make up for with scourge, this cuts into w/e gap may or may not exist in a straight up comparison).

We know forcemultiplication closes any gaps extremely quickly when the stronger values are applied, just look at how easy "support" classes catch up and exceed the "damage AT"s when they cross buff/debuff.

The problem is pretty much limited to where the devs have done a crappy job and haven't made a meaningful difference in the strength of defender powers vs corr/troller/mm shared powers.

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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.

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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.

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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.

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Actually scourge makes it about 0.91 from my data.

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Either way, it's substantially higher than the base scalar gives it credit for.

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Someone did a big anaysis of it actually tracking it over time vs various mob types. I sort of feel like it was Starsman?, but can't find it now.

iirc though it was like 7% for minions, ~10% for luts, 17-19% for bosses, eb, +.

It isn't quite accurate to just add those numbers to the base modifier. At say 19% scourge rate that works out being closer to a 14 pt increase in the base damage modifier.

ie. .75*1.19 = 0.89

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except the overall damage scourge deals over time isn't effected by the con level or max hp of the foe. It's a straight 21.25% increase to the overall damage it takes to kill a foe.

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It isn't. I thought it was. Heck I thought you'd get close to a 35% scourge rate against EB's+, but you don't. It was starsman who did the analysis and I'm glad he has dropped by the thread now. I'm also glad I was so close to remembering his results accurately.

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unless you can magically maintain 8 total stacks of sonic blast -res debuffs 100% of the time, a Rad/Sonic defender will NEVER deal the same damage Sonic/Rad corruptor does. The post I was replying to was claiming that defenders have the potential to do the same damage as a corruptor, which is just no where close to being true.

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You may be right. I thought I had seen posts where players took identical Sonic/Rad corruptors and Rad/Sonic Defenders and demonstrated that the defender outdamaged the corruptor due to the better buff/debuff values. I thought it was solo performance, but I may be misremembering, perhaps it was in a teaming situation, where the better debuffs amplified the whole team's damage.

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You've probably seen one's where they pop pbu first and do a metric ton more burst damage than the corr, but over time the corr is a bit stronger. I say a bit, cause well see my earlier post about what happens when you do more than one attack with sonic.

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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.

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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.

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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.

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Actually scourge makes it about 0.91 from my data.

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Either way, it's substantially higher than the base scalar gives it credit for.

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Someone did a big anaysis of it actually tracking it over time vs various mob types. I sort of feel like it was Starsman?, but can't find it now.

iirc though it was like 7% for minions, ~10% for luts, 17-19% for bosses, eb, +.

It isn't quite accurate to just add those numbers to the base modifier. At say 19% scourge rate that works out being closer to a 14 pt increase in the base damage modifier.

ie. .75*1.19 = 0.89

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Simply a buff to damage with no teammates around and you lose it with teammates nearby, but gain a powerboost effect.

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Right. So I log into the game and am able to do X damage.
I join a team and while near teammates I do X - Y damage, but I get some nebulous, mostly invisible effect.
Knowing all the other benefits defenders get on a team (the ability to use your powers on teammates as well as yourself in addition to whatever they bring), I love the idea even without the powerboost effect.
Despite my love of the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.

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I agree and it is why I said I generally shy away from such ideas.

It would be a straight increase in every way to defender performance, but you are right someone would construe that it is a nerf.

I would hope that if someone is capable of noticing the damage of:
Powerburst going from ~160 damage while solo down to ~150
(and getting upset about it)

They'd also notice:
Dispersion bubble going from 15.6% up to 17% (troller is 11.7%) so 33% better in a team than a troller.

Or heal other (everyone loves green almost as much as they love orange numbers) going from 511 to 551. (troller is 450.3) so 19% better in a team than a troller.
(and being happy about it).

Other that, I don't personally have a solution for defs because I believe wholeheartedly that their team damage is fine. Increasing the amount of damage they can do in teams in conjuction with their forcemultiplication is worrisome. At the same time corrs and trollers step all over their toes in terms of buff/debuff ability which is especially noticeable with a large team.

I wouldn't say Castle would never go for an idea like this, he did propose a domination change that had something similar to this, but more like an 80% damage swing. It was thankfully shot down, but the premise was sound. Just hard to sell to the masses.

The other general inaccuracy I often see used when people discuss how awesome fire is is that when they cut off the chain they don't cut off the dot, they count it all.

Blaze is the main culprit for this, its dot runs 4.1 seconds past the initial damage.

For the purposes of long run dps calculations it doesn't matter, but it is worth being aware of due to the fact that long run dps calculations (particularly for blasters) apply to so little of the game.

ie.
flare>blaze>blast
Most would calculate the avg expect dot and apply it to both blaze and fireblast, but that is misleading. If you cut the timer off as soon as fireblast is done then blaze would at most have 2 ticks and blast none.

In a repetition scenario vs the same target that is irrelevant, but when discussing blastesr that isn't that common as they do so much damage.

In other words, for calculation purposes the avg dot ends up being represented like it is up front damage. If it was fire would be OP'd, but in actual play the dot is very good, but a bit less amazing than paper analysis shows.

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Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders.

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If they choose to only use one attack vs. a target. What happens if they chain attacks and stack even more of the Sonic -res debuff? I know most players would only attack with scream and forgo other attacks, but just in case someone goes crazy and also uses Shriek and Screech.

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If they were feeling particularily crazy and decided to actually play the game they would see something like this:

Scream self buffs it's own damage (most people that don't play sonic don't realize that).
Def
2 ticks of 4.77
8 ticks of 4.77 buffed by additional 20% -res

Corr
2 ticks of 5.84
8 ticks of 5.84 buffed by additional 15% -res


Aside from that the comparison Turbo just ran is pretty useless. Sonic is about stacking -res to defeat targets, not cycling a single attack. The defender benefits more from attacking in a realistic manner rather than some pointless vacuum comparison.

It would be far more useful comparing a realistic scenario
Like how you'd kill a lut.
(AM, assault, 95% enhances)
Aim>screech>EF>shriek>scream>shriek >shout>shriek>scream>shriek

Def w/ aim = 1,565.2
Corr w/ aim = 1,647.5
5% diff
Def w/o aim = 1,385.1
Corr w/o aim = 1480.5
6.5% diff

w/ apoc proc in shriek
w/ aim = 2.8% diff
w/o aim = 3.9% diff

*Scourge
-iirc it is about 9-10% over time for luts?
w/ aim = 12.9% dif
w/o aim = 14.2% diff
w/ aim+apoc = 10% diff
w/o aim+apoc = 10.8% diff

Of course if you skew the results with as much bias as possible you end up with a reason to complain.

Rad/sons have absolutely nothing to complain about, they start strong and finish stronger. They are a horrible example to use to try and highlight that defs are not strong enough. But so are most cases where the example is a commonly used AV solo'er.

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Controller- It doesn't make sense to me that this AT has the damage it has.

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I disagree. I can see how people get upset on containment with the one epic AOE but at that point in the game, ATs are supposed to get access to things they otherwise wouldnt. Defenders get all kinds of flexibility in the 40s also. The damage otherwise even with containment isnt that awesome. I found Defenders much easier to solo. I think it is the outlying sets (Fire/Kin mainly) that make the perception that the damage is too high a bit of a perception problem.

Lewis

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You're probably right. But to me, Controllers have no primary or secondary that is damage with the exception of pets. And yet, they are granted what they lack. If Controllers get what they lack it's really only fair to do the same for everyone else, but would that even be balanced?

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I did like the idea of the poster that suggested that some of the magnitudes on the Defender powers could be upped to match controllers.

I also liked the idea that the party size getting bigger makes defender buffs better. Basically, add 1% (or some other appropriate) effectiveness per party member (self included). Then, the smaller the party, the more the damage boost. 8% damage boost when solo, 1% damage boost on a team.

OR hey how about taking a point from WOW where you have raid effects. What if everyone's damage output was X% higher with a Defender on the team. Say, 5% global damage buff to the team for ONE defender, with every additional defender giving a 1% buff?

That would ROCK. It would be an UBER inherent for the AT.

Lewis

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If I were doing defender balancing (aside from a whole whack of individual power tweaks) I'd do something similar as mentioned here.
ie damage boost while solo that scales down relative to the number of teammates within a given range.
*Proly like a 10-15% boost while solo, down to 0% in a full team with everyone within a 60ft range.

But at the same time I'd give them a powerboost effect that scales up from 0 to x % based on the number of teammates.
*Like up to a 15% powerboost effect.

While a powerboost effect wouldn't benefit everything defs do it would cover a lot. In addition to a heap of power tweaks I'd personally do it would be more than enough to distiguish defs as superior buff/debuff and make it apparent that as team size goes up so does their ability to support them.

I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more. Just as their buff/debuff is more than enough solo, but could use a bit more in teams to ensure they stand above other support AT's.

Fire/kin hands down for pure damage.

However, in many situations Fire/storm and Fire/cold can keep pace because they are so good at using rain of fire whereas /kin is not. Though web envelope can alleviate most of this issue.

Rain of Fire does massive damage.

Fire/TA is going to be a neat combo, but OSA recharges way too slow for it to keep pace with the other big damage dealers.

I heard you wind up for two seconds and then "stab" your target.

I'm guessing it won't be super amazing compared to the existing AS animations.

I actually wouldn't mind something like the golden dragonfly animation used for the broadsword AS. Slowed down of course to match the time frame of other AS's. Add more crouch to it first or something.

I've always felt the GD animation is like a super headsplitter.

I just feel like jumping up in the air and bring down a 50lb sword on someones head would be more of a death strike than trying to ram it through them. Cleaved in two or poked in the stomach...

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frost, stop implying that I want fire nerfed

I just like to toss around "OP" to say something is just great, I spend too much time in the smash bros froums, we toss the word around like a frisbee there

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You might be different, if so I apologize. I've watched a LOT of people on these boards call things OP'd when they are just stirring the pot for nerfs.

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Your Fire Blast numbers are high since you are not properly adding the DoT of Fire and are overestimating its effect. For example, you have Blaze base average damage listed on your charts as 188.9, when the average should be 170.5.

See here for calculating DoT of Fire Blast DoTs

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This. Don't always trust mid's for complex calculations. Or just use the in-game numbers they seem accurate.

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I actually changed all of those numbers on my personal Mids' database to account for proper DoT calc.

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Were the correct numbers used for the results though? I saw the same thing Strato did that fire was being overstated by quite a bit.

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Hurricane at lvl12 was enough reason for me to go storm/son over son/storm. Freezing rain at 8 was an even bigger decider.

Speed boost at 12, excellent.

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I can ding 12 in a play session, or two if I'm being lazy. The only way 20 takes awhile is if you solo your way. If you don't plan on playing the build much I can see it being an advantage to getting powers earlier, but that's about it.


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How many hrs does the avg player play for per session? per week?

I imagine the term "casual player base" wasn't coined due to the majority of players being capable of rushing into the 20's in a matter of hours.

Last number released quite some time ago (iirc) said that the avg player level is around 30.

What about key tier 8 powers? hour many hrs does it take the avg player to go from 26 to 35? Do most players even reach 35 to even get to use said power?

Same reason I could never stick with an /em tank, but leveled an EM brute and stalker without issue. Sometimes waiting for signature/key powers is a b*tch. I know from leveling up several cold corrs and one cold def that waiting until lvl 35 to get sleet is one heck of a long time (assuming you don't just ae blast the toon through the levels).

There is definitely a place for people that want powers earlier. Like I said, when I aim to play a debuffing toon with the focus on some of the key debuffing powers, then I take a good look at defenders.

I've said before though, that post GR defs will be in the bottom 4 AT's with tanks, doms, and stalkers and they will occupy a much smaller percentage relative the other "big" AT's
*excluding epics.
I'm thinking 80% for the main 6 (corrs, MM's, brutes, scraps, blasters, trollers) and 20% for the other 4 (defs, tanks, doms, stalkers).

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Well I have the names Redraw McGraw on Freedom & Virtue, will I ever use them no.

Im saving them for someone here serious enough to actually take 1 to 50.


Get in touch if your serious about that.


JJ

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I'd never play a toon like that. But we picked different names so no worries.

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The big offender here is Tar Patch, which operates at Defender values for Corruptors. A /Dark Corruptor is just as much of a force multiplier as a Dark/ Defender is and does more significantly more damage to boot.

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It is retarded how inconsistent (and dare I say corner cutting) they are with psuedo pets.

Some of them get adjusted for each AT -
Freezing rain, Lightning Storm, Disruption Arrow, Fulcrum, Heat loss..

And then a whole pile of them don't -
sheild charge, Lrod, burn, tornado, traps, etc

It bothers me. Either apply (as in edit) the entities to be AT specific (the correct thing to do) or do it for none of them.

You are right, Tar patch is a serious offender, it is just as good on Defs as it is on MM's.

That isn't defender's fault though, that is just a poor job being done.

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Fulcrum Shift does not get adjusted going between primary and secondary.

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Yes it does. The difference may not be meaningful in actual play, but it IS adjusted.

Def:
buff caster - 50%
buff per target -25%
debuff per target -25%

Troller:
Buff caster -40%
buff per target -25%
debuff per target -20%

I agree the difference isn't significant enough on many sets and a good number of them end up performing better on trollers and corrs due to criticals (containment/scourge) and the higher damage cap of the corr where applicable.

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The big offender here is Tar Patch, which operates at Defender values for Corruptors. A /Dark Corruptor is just as much of a force multiplier as a Dark/ Defender is and does more significantly more damage to boot.

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It is retarded how inconsistent (and dare I say corner cutting) they are with psuedo pets.

Some of them get adjusted for each AT -
Freezing rain, Lightning Storm, Disruption Arrow, Fulcrum, Heat loss..

And then a whole pile of them don't -
sheild charge, Lrod, burn, tornado, traps, etc

It bothers me. Either apply (as in edit) the entities to be AT specific (the correct thing to do) or do it for none of them.

You are right, Tar patch is a serious offender, it is just as good on Defs as it is on MM's.

That isn't defender's fault though, that is just a poor job being done.

I'm making an ar/ta/mace and naming it:
Redraw Macaw

It will be a pirate of course.

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Sets like Kinetics really show that you have no idea what you're talking about here. Defenders being better at support just isn't the case in the grand scheme of things.

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Maybe it's just me, but there's more than just one power set for Defenders. Maybe having a view outside of one particular instance could help. Then again, that might just be me *shrugs*

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It's not just you.

Hurricane at lvl12 was enough reason for me to go storm/son over son/storm. Freezing rain at 8 was an even bigger decider.

Speed boost at 12, excellent.
Same for fearsome stare.
OSA at 26 instead of 35, yes plz
Sleet at 26 instead of 35 (that is a tough wait for cold).

When I look to roll a debuffing toon I look strongly to defenders because of earlier availability and stronger effects.

Kinetics is just one of those sets that performs better for other AT's than defenders. I don't really blame that on defenders. I blame that on the other two AT's that get it having criticals that effectively double their damage cap. And because powers like fulcrum, trans, trans, and sb are so strong unslotted that it ends up not really mattering that a def is a bit stronger with it.

When you only look at things from lvl 50 or if you never leave AE teams then the above stuff doesn't matter much.

That said, corrs will likely hurt the already ailing defender population even further. They have very similar playstyles and corrs tend to be more "fun" once mature. Maturing early, while very nice, just isn't enough to carry the AT. App's vs PPP's used to heavily favor def's too when corr ones were a joke, but that isn't the case anymore.

Whether defs really do need a damage buff (I don't think they really do) a 5-10% increase wouldn't really help to offset whatever damage corrs are going to do to their numbers.

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This will make PvP IO sets almost impossible to obtain for the casual PvPers.

I feel sorry for the PvPers on low populated servers. One more reason for them to head over to freedom.

GG devs. PvP IOs will make purples look cheap.

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Gotta add, I was shopwing a friend PvP in arena the other night. After killing him, I found myself say now wait five more minutes so there is a chance of a reward for who ever kills each other next.

Not exciting.

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The end goal for pvp in this game is brawl+sprint. It is pretty clear how the reward system now supports that.

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Actually TS is a TAoE, the aoe damage radiates from the target of the melee attack.

[/ QUOTE ] That doesnt mean anything, you could say the same thing about lightning rod or shield charge or inferno or nova. They all do this. Chance for damage is based on how close you are to the center of where the power starts.

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One sure fire way to tell it isn't an pbaoe; can you use it with no targets?


[/ QUOTE ] What about lotus drops, combustion, and various PBAoEs that be used with no targets. Some that require targets are shadow maul, flashing steel, Head spliter. If you want targeted AoE then you need to look at attacks like shockwave. Thats about as targeted as you can get.
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I think it is the only melee range taoe though, so it is pretty unique and something I personally feel a lot more melee attacks should have. Effectively spalsh damage. Makes sense on fire attacks at least.

[/ QUOTE ] Dude for the last time you are just wrong on this. Its not a TAoE,its PBAoE.

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Actually we already discussed this and I'm not wrong in the least.I'm technically right, but based on your posting history I think that is irrelevant to you.

Where does the aoe damage radiate from when you use thunderstrike? Is it from around you or is it from around your target?

If they had TAoE sets in the game I'm sure it would take them (not much reason too tho, it is the only TAoE that doesn't fall under the ranged category), but they don't and it makes more sense to allow it to accept Pbaoe than it does to accept Ranged Aoe sets as it is cognitively closer to a pbaoe than a ranged aoe, due to lacking the "ranged" aspect of Ranged Aoe.

Starsman was correct in his evaluation.

The chances of a firemelee port retaining FSC and BoF while dropping scorch is very low. It would be very nice to have FSC, but it is likely the attack that would be dropped for AS.
scorch
firesword
cremate
AS
BU
Placate
Breath of Fire
Incin
GFS

Ya I'd like FSC over BoF, but proly unlikely. The upfront damage on FSC is about 42% greater than spineburst, which would mean some very impressive aoe burst. I'd like it but, i dunno.

Dropping scorch I just don't see happening either. EM is currently the "slowest" starting set with its fastest attack at 4 second rech. Removing scorch would mean fire's fastest attack is 6 seconds.

Firesword+cremate+BoF would make for some crappy leveling. I don't see them pushing Incinerate down to the T3, that attack will be amazing for stalkers.

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Your Fire Blast numbers are high since you are not properly adding the DoT of Fire and are overestimating its effect. For example, you have Blaze base average damage listed on your charts as 188.9, when the average should be 170.5.

See here for calculating DoT of Fire Blast DoTs

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This. Don't always trust mid's for complex calculations. Or just use the in-game numbers they seem accurate.

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when have I ever said i wnat fire nerfed?

[/ QUOTE ] It is clear in this thread and in your other that you are insinuating that fire is OP'd. Calling something OP'd is a short hop and a skip from crying for nerfs.

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All i said is that is bar-none the best for damage by alot...

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Shouldn't it be? If it was all upfront damage I might be inclined to agree that a ~20% difference is pretty big, but for a set with absolutely no mitigation and a large portion of its damage through dot, it sounds pretty reasonable for me.
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I mean, Blaze has the best DPA of any power a blaster can get...couple that with low recharge, high damage blasts, quick activating fireball, and secondary attacks...why pick anything else for damage?

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If it wasn't blaze it would be some other power with the highest dpa. That is why I said it is the nail that is sticking out furthest earlier. It is an easy target for people to go after.

What people fail to realize whenever they go after fire is that it's upfront damage is perfectly in line with other sets.
DPA
Blaze - 111.64+dot
BiB - 108.06 + slow/-rech, -tohit +little bit of range
Tk Blast - 103.22 + kb + lots of range +instant hit (no travel time on the blast)

That seems fine to me. In fact when comparisons were done before the dot on fire was buffed other sets were encroaching on it very closely. Too closely evidently, as the dot was buffed.

In a situation where mitigation is irrelevant why shouldn't fire be the clear cut choice? If it wasn't then something would be wrong.
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at the same time, it needs that due to it having no other form of migitation outside of defeating baddies.

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Exactly. So it needs the extra damage, but then when the numbers show it is there you raise the alarm.

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besides, 40ft range is usual for most blaster (cept PSI..), seeing as their cones dont exceed 50 in most cases.

Being /nrg or slapping a range in it will alleviate the problem.

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Most post 32 arch blasters I see operate just fine from 80ft, dishing out huge aoe and very good st. Psy like you said, and most ice blasters don't take frostbreath so are further than 40ft as well.

A lot of blasters are driven into the 40ft range, it used to be a lot less for some sets.
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check out my "best DPS" thread, it has info on all the primaries.

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I've seen it, your calculations for fire are inaccurate.

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In my opinion, having an all Boss enemy group IS an exploit. There is no Dev-created group that conforms to that formula, and therefore there is no "natural" encounter that will resemble that situation.

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I also don't encounter the majority of custom mobs (like firemelee/fireassault, or icearmor/mindcontrol) in vanilla pve. By your logic they are also an exploit.

Thankfully your logic is faulty.

ok just checked my spreadsheets.

for st Fire with 227% rech in blaze
blaze>fblast>flare>repeat
and Arch with 227% rech in blazing arrow
Blazing>aimed>snap>repeat

Hot or cold (ie from a standstill or with maximum defiance)
Arch does 78-79% as much damage and consumes 82% as much endurance per second.

That sounds very fair to me. Less damage, less end burnt.

Blaze carries fire, if/when/hopefully never blaze gets a good second tacked onto the cast time the numbers will be way too close for comfort.

Like I said earlier, arch does very impressive aoe and has acceptable st damage. Unless doing just under 80% as much st damage as a set that is "so ridiculously far and above everything else" isn't acceptable.

Plus you get to stand back at full range while doing it. Sounds good to me.

Anyway, this is neither a fire nor an Archery thread, so back on topic:

I always thought irradiate was like a 10 sec dot so I avoided it on the dark/rad def I tried awhile back. It is actually pretty short (4 sec dot) and a hella fast cast. It should also hit a bit harder than shortcircuit. Rad/x (fire or psy) looks even more tempting as a pbaoe specialist.

I like sets with significant -def too. Never missing at any level of the game no matter how high the enemies (within reason) is nice.

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uhm, you specifically asked for a ST comparison frost...

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No I didn't. I have no reason to, I already have all these comparisons done in more detail on my own computer.

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Also, im not saying anything bad about fire, im just boggled at just how much better it is at damage than the other sets o.O

aoe output at 80ft would be limited to Explosive arrow and fireball...fireball wins (unless you have an exceptionally fast recharging RoA)


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It was a rhetorical question. At far range archery destroys fire in st and aoe output. Why wouldn't you include RoA?

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at lvl 6, why would you bother?



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Because archery has a complete attack chain by lvl 6 with no recharge slotting. And it is a very nice attack chain. Fire on the ohter hand (and I've played a lot of fire) is pretty lame until blaze.

The purpose was to try and get you to open your mind. You are being exceptionally narrow minded. Fire is different than arch, fire is different than all sets, arch is different than all sets. They are both fine.

You obviously have some idea of how you think fire should be balanced because IYO it is OP'd. Keep it to yourself.

edit:
the chain of fblast>flare>ball>.13 gap>flare requires 267% recharge in fireball.
gl w/ that.
haha, that much recharge in arch would give RoA a 16.3 sec recharge.