FourSpeed

[ QUOTE ]
So at the end of the day, you shot yourself in your own foot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Due to all the reasons previously mentioned, I'll bet not... But we'll see...

It's not like this strategy hasn't been mentioned in nearly every other marketing guide out there
(along with many other techniques, of course), so the only difference is that I delve into much more
step by step detail for this one.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

i understand your way of making influence and way to go and gratz on the fast money making. but the
drawback to this is that by doing it..1 will take all recipies out of the market for those who need/want
them , and 2 drive the prices up further with supply and demand in an unbalanced market that we
already have with greedy sellers there. we know if everyone started doing this after reading that
there will be nothing left. i know of some other ways of tricking the maket into making yourself rich and
have done it to the sum of over 300 million and did it so much that it can't be done anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise an excellent and valid concern.

The guide was getting a little lengthy so I only addressed that superficially. Let me expand upon
it in more detail here.

First, with any finite quantity of items, if demand spikes, supplies will diminish and prices will rise.

That's not unusual in the least. I agree that it could occur here too (to some degree).

However, unlike say, Celeritys where there might be a handful across all levels (if you can buy
any at all), the situation with recipes is much better. We have 9 level ranges, but there are also
26 different types of common IO enhancement to bid on. (Wiki)

That's 234 distinct recipe niches to draw from, so even speaking conservatively, the volume of
individual recipes would likely be measured in thousands.

Secondly, the drop rates for common IO recipes is significantly higher than, say Hamidon Goo
or other rare salvage, and I'd also speculate that players are likelier to dump them on the market
rather than keep them (assuming they don't just vendor themselves).
Once again, that is a better situation than other items as supplies are being replenished (not
at the rate of common salvage perhaps, but definitely faster than rares).

Third, there are two points I specifically raise in the guide that are related to this issue. The first
one concerns spreading out buy bids. Your concern (and mine to a degree) is the very reason
for raising that point. By bidding on just one 10-stack of any particular recipe in a cycle, a single
player is only buying *ten* specific recipes of any type over a period of hours (ie. the cycle gap).

The other point is in the Tips section where I state that this approach is great for funding characters
but isn't a "Make Me a Billionaire" strategy. Personally, I use this technique on my currently active
Hero or Villain, or in a case where I have a specific purchase planned or need a quick influence
infusion. My other characters use other strategies like crafting, dabbling in rares etc. and I'd imagine
that others will do so too once they've got a decent bankroll.

Fourth, the maximum jump that could occur due to recipe shortages is already limited for all but the
seriously impatient, or the exceedingly idiotic players. If prices go astronomic on a particular recipe,
any players that require one will do one of two things. They'll either bid on a crafted IO, or they'll go
to the university and buy the recipe they want - effectively capping the price rise.
Sure, in that scenario, prices for that recipe are up, but it isn't prohibitively so, or game-breaking.

Lastly, while I'm flattered that you think this strategy would become so pervasive as to drain the
market of recipes, I'm highly doubtful about that outcome. Forum readers in general are a minority
of the playerbase, serious marketeers have no need of this strategy, and the market averse players
who struggle to make ends meet will most likely make enough to equip their characters with
the shinys they want and call it a day...

As I said at the outset, you raise an excellent concern and I assure you that I gave the matter some
thought before posting the guide. When all is said and done, I simply disagree that the risk is
as severe as you believe. To be sure, some categories could suffer some effects, but I believe it
will be minimal and short-term for the most part.


Regards,
4

As a result of a little side project and peterpeter's suggestion, I have posted a guide on Recipe Vendoring.

You can find it here.


Regards,
4

(Oct. 2008)

BACKGROUND
-------------

Outside of the marketing community, there is an apparent perception that making influence/infamy
is both difficult and very time consuming. In actual gameplay, this is completely false.

To prove it, I decided to undertake a little side project where I created a brand new character whose
goals were to reach Level 6, and earn a minimum of 10 Million influence, while tracking the time
needed to get there.

No teaming, No sewer runs, No taskforces, No sugardaddy funding. Just normal solo play and a very
simple, but highly effective, marketing strategy.

It took 6 hours and 14 minutes to achieve that goal (See Chart 1).

This guide details the marketing strategy I used, and more importantly, provides you the information
to use this same approach for your own characters.

The only reasons players are poor in this game are due to lack of knowledge and/or lack of effort.
Hopefully, this guide will help remove the first of those reasons as an excuse.


THE PLAN
---------

While there are many excellent marketing guides out there covering dozens of strategies for
making influence/infamy (which I highly encourage you to read), I'm going to focus on just
one simple approach in this guide.

That's not a knock on any of those other techniques. It simply lets us discuss this particular
strategy in much more detail (some may say "excessive" detail).

The strategy is "Recipe Vendoring" and simply stated, it is this: "Buy underpriced IO recipes from the
Market and sell them to a normal zone store for a profit".

That sounds easy enough, right? It is.




So, why Recipe Vendoring? That's an excellent question, I'm glad you asked.

• It is amazingly simple and easy to learn.
• It is totally risk-free when done properly.
• It minimizes time spent at the market.
• It is very effective and works well for both Heroes and Villains of all levels.
• It's quick - 10M in 6 Hours is more than 1.6 Million per game hour ...
  On a lowbie Level 6 character...
  
• The technique is even more effective for higher level characters
• It's a fire and forget approach - you can profit even when your character is logged out.
• It's flexible and compatible with any other marketing strategies you like to use.

I know, I know. After reading that list you're thinking this is sounding more like an infomercial, and
I don't blame you a bit for thinking "This is too good to be true".

I assure you it *is* true, but don't believe me till you try it - I'm ok with that...


GETTING STARTED
------------------

It's easy. You simply need to be in a zone where there is a Market.

Low level characters can use Atlas Park, Kings Row or Mercy Island, and higher levels can also
do well in Steel Canyon, Talos Island or Sharkhead Isle. The important thing is picking a market
with a zone store nearby (trainers/quartermasters also work). You will be shuttling recipes you
buy to the store, so the closer it is, the quicker it goes.

You also need some minimal amount of starting influence/infamy.

If you have a new character in the tutorial, save the inspirations you get and sell them at the
market (post them for 10, and don't worry what they sell for - it'll likely be 20K-50K each, and that's
easily enough). If it's too late to sell those, don't worry. You can actually start this process with
just a few hundred influence/infamy. Just run a mission or two, and you'll still be set to go.

Now that you're in a market zone with an initial bankroll, (however much or little it is) let's talk about
the process a little bit. The first thing to understand is that you're only interested in common IO
recipes (Market Section: -> Recipes -> Other). It doesn't matter what the actual recipe is, or
whether it's popular or not. The important thing to care about is the price it is currently selling
for on the market. Ignoring the temp powers and costume pieces (which aren't part of this strategy),
there are 9 level ranges (L10-L50) for each type of IO recipe, and that provides a lot of buying potential.
Another nice thing about recipes is that you can buy them in stacks of 10, which really boosts the
profit value of your limited market transaction slots.

The idea is to look through those recipes and find several types/levels that will be profitable. For
each of the types you find, place a buy bid for a stack of 10 recipes.

Once those bids fill, take the recipes you bought over to the zone store and sell them.

That's it... Simple, isn't it?

Now you may have noticed that this strategy is cyclic and it splits nicely into two distinct pieces:

Cycle Step #1 > Identify profitable recipes, and place buy bids for 10-stacks until you're out of
influence (early on) or you used all of your transaction slots.

Cycle Step #2 > Take all of your purchased recipes and sell them to the zone store. Cancel any
bids that didn't fill (you'll get your influence back for those). Then, repeat Cycle Step #1.

In between steps 1 and 2, you can do whatever you like.

Understand that it will take some time (wall-clock time) to fill your buy bids, so it's actually best if
you simply forget about them for a few hours and go do something else (like levelling your current
character, playing a different character, or just log-out if you have to go to school or work). Every
time you purchase a recipe, you're making more influence whether you're actually there to see it
happen or not.

I said earlier that this strategy is risk-free when done properly. To do that, you need one vital piece
of information. If you get this right, you will *never* lose influence using this strategy - ever. You need
a sure-fire method to tell if the price a recipe is selling for at the market is less than the price a vendor
will pay you for it.

Fortunately, that is easy to determine once you know the recipe's Level, and Crafting Cost (you can see
the crafting cost in the bid window by mousing over the recipe icon).

Once you know the recipe level and crafting cost, the amount a vendor will pay you for it is
calculated as follows:

If the recipe level is less than L30 ................. divide the crafting cost by 8
If the recipe level is L30, L35 or L40 .............. divide the crafting cost by 5.333
If the recipe level is more than L40 ............... divide the crafting cost by 4

For Set recipes, the store price is 100 * Level for Yellow (uncommon) and 200 * Level for Orange (rare)
ones, but you're not looking at those for this strategy, right??? Right!

So, here are 3 examples.

An L50 Recharge Reduction recipe has a Crafting Cost of 431,900. Level is more than L40, so, divide the
crafting cost by 4 and get 107,975. That is what the store will pay for each of those recipes you sell there.

An L25 Accuracy recipe has a Crafting Cost of 34,800. Its level is less than L30, so, divide by 8, and
discover that the store will pay 4,350 for it.

Finally, we have an L40 Fly with Crafting Cost of 62,600. Level is between L30 and L40, (inclusive), so we
divide by 5.333 and we find that a vendor will pay 11,738 for it.

Now, to guarantee profits, all you have to do is choose recipes where your buy bid is lower than the amount
the store will pay you when you sell the recipe.

That's it. It really is that simple.

You now have everything you need to implement this strategy effectively.

The remaining sections are optional reference topics covering some tips, case study buys, and actual
time/profit charts using this strategy. They aren't necessary for using this approach, but I hope you
find them (and this guide) helpful for funding your characters.


Now, Go. Vendor Recipes. Avoid Poverty!


TIPS / ADVICE
--------------

The following list covers things I've learned while using the strategy for my characters.

• Be sure of your pricing - Getting this wrong (ie. bidding more for a recipe than
  a vendor will pay) is the only way to lose influence with this strategy -
  Get it Right!
  
• Having a travel power (temporary or permanent), and picking an optimal market
  zone, really helps reduce selling time. For instance, Kings Row has a store (trainer)
  within 100 yards of WW. Steel Canyon and Sharkhead Isle have a store/quartermaster
  within a single superjump leap. It's not required, but these really speed the
  process up.
  
• Spread your buys around. There are a LOT of profitable recipes out there. Fill
  your slots with bids, but limit yourself to just one 10-stack of any particular
  recipe per market cycle. You'll give yourself the best odds to fill the buy and
  you'll reduce the chances of depleting the supply (and raising the price needlessly).
  
• Give your buys time to fill - use that cycle time to level, play other characters,
  read a book (or guide), etc.
  
• Don't worry (too much) if a biddable recipe only has 2 or 3 for sale. Only the price
  matters. Often, the bids will still fill if the cycle gap is decent (say, overnight, for
  instance).
  
• When you do check your buys, don't worry if some didn't fill - either your bid was
  too low, someone "Market PvP'd" by outbidding you, or maybe there just weren't
  any more recipes left. No Problem. Every recipe you did buy is making you a profit.
  
• As part of Cycle Step #2, I said "Cancel any bids that didn't fill". Based on the
  prior point, there are reasons why they didn't fill. Any influence you have tied up
  in those bids is idling instead of making you profits. Cancelling those bids gives you
  that influence back (there are no fees for cancelling a buy bid) so you can put it
  to work in another (hopefully more lucrative) 10-stack bid.
  
• Use the last 5 history. Most guides tell you not to trust it (for good reasons), but
  in this case it helps. You *want* to buy, so don't shy away from overbidding the
  the last 5 (slightly) as long as your bid is still below vendor price. Doing
  that gives your bids the best chance of filling first.
  
• If your bankroll is limited, it is better to bid on a few higher level recipes over
  full 10-stacks of lower level recipes. Your profits will usually be better in the
  first case. Here's an example to illustrate the point. Say I only have 1200 influence.
  I could bid 1,010 on a 10-stack of L10 Accuracy recipes (at 101 each) and get
  4,120 back when they fill. However, I could also bid 1,001 on a L35 Endurance Reduction.
  When I fill that single buy, I would sell it for 10,938 - a better deal. The good news
  is that this is rarely a concern except for brand new lowbie characters.
  
• A helpful concept to think about is Stack Value. Basically it is the Vendor Price
  minus your Bid Price, times 10 (since you're buying 10 recipes). Once your bankroll
  stops being a limit, focus on recipes where the SV is within the 150K-300K range
  (usually L40+ recipes). Those buys raise influence quickly over time. It's also handy
  to think of your purchases in SV terms ... ie. that 20 Million Respec Recipe is really
  only 100 or so recipe stacks. If you have 10 to 15 transaction slots, it's less than a
  dozen market buy cycles to get it, even if you pay full market price...
  Just a thought...
  
• This strategy is quick and effective, but it probably won't make you a billionaire
  (although it scales quite nicely up to the 100-200M range or so). If you want to
  fund and equip your character, this is a great way to do it. If you want to be
  a billionaire marketeering mogul, you should expand your knowledge and add more
  marketing strategies to your repertoire.
  
• Earlier I excluded "Set" recipes. In fact, you can profit from them too, but more
  factors (like popularity) apply. Also, pricing usually isn't favourable for vendoring
  since an L50 Orange (rare) recipe only sells for 10,000 (200 * Level) while a normal
  L50 Recharge Reduction sells for more than 100,000. If you come across set
  recipes, *do* check what they're selling for at the market - some are extremely
  valuable, but don't bother looking for underpriced Set recipes to vendor.

CASE STUDIES
--------------

These are actual in-game transactions made by one of my characters (specifically for this guide)
so you can see some real game example conditions across a range of recipes. The bids were made
just before logging off for the night, and I checked them after getting home from work the next
day, so the cycle gap was roughly 17 hours or so...

I've included a recipe I didn't bid on and a couple where I overbid the last 5 history. I want to emphasize
the ideas of only bidding when it's profitable and not sweating the last 5 history too much if your
pricing is good.


L10 Accuracy: Crafting Cost = 3300, Vendor Pays: 412
The last 5 bids: 1200, 100, 1000, 1000, 1000. For Sale: 66 with 0 bidding.
My bid: 101 Bought: 8 Cost: 808 Sold: 3296 Profit: 2488

L15 Confuse: Crafting Cost = 4000, Vendor Pays: 500
The last 5 bids: 10, 1001, 510, 510, 10. For Sale: 4 with 0 bidding.
My bid: 25 Bought: 4 Cost: 100 Sold: 2000 Profit: 1900

L25 Fly: Crafting Cost = 22400, Vendor Pays: 2800
The last 5 bids: 6000, 5000, 5000, 6000, 5000. For Sale: 3 with 2 bidding.
My bid: SKIP! (This is an example of an overpriced recipe)

L25 Hold: Crafting Cost = 23400, Vendor Pays: 2925
The last 5 bids: 8888, 8888, 5001, 1505, 5555. For Sale: 9 with 1 bidding.
My bid: 1515 Bought: 10 Cost: 15150 Sold: 29250 Profit: 14100

L35 Damage: Crafting Cost = 62700, Vendor Pays: 11756
The last 5 bids: 25000, 25000, 10000, 2500, 2500. For Sale: 134 with 53 bidding.
My bid: 3001 Bought: 0 Cost: 0 Sold: 0 Profit: 0
My bids for this one ended up being too low <shrug>. It happens sometimes...

L35 End Red: Crafting Cost = 58300, Vendor Pays: 10931
The last 5 bids: 100, 10000, 5000, 1750, 1750. For Sale: 24 with 8 bidding.
My bid: 2101 Bought: 10 Cost: 21010 Sold: 109310 Profit: 88300

L45 Fly: Crafting Cost = 111700, Vendor Pays: 27925
The last 5 bids: 10100, 100000, 10100, 10100, 10100. For Sale: 1 with 81 bidding.
My bid: 10501 Bought: 10 Cost: 105010 Sold: 279250 Profit: 174240

L50 Range: Crafting Cost = 371500, Vendor Pays: 92875
The last 5 bids: 75000, 75000, 74200, 74200, 74200. For Sale: 158 with 368 bidding.
My bid: 75101 Bought: 10 Cost: 751010 Sold: 928750 Profit: 177740

L50 ToHit Buff: Crafting Cost = 339000, Vendor Pays: 84750
The last 5 bids: 59501, 60000, 59501, 59325, 59325. For Sale: with bidding.
My bid: 59751 Bought: 10 Cost: 597510 Sold: 847500 Profit: 249990


CHART 1
---------

This chart documents every play session for "MCF", a brand new hero who was the basis for this guide.
While I have used this funding strategy frequently, this character was the first one where I fully
tracked the time and wealth from the very beginning.


"MCF" - Level 6 Hero

........................ PLAY .. TOTAL ........ MAX
ZONE ..... DATE .. TIME .. HOURS ... INFLUENCE
---------------------------------------------------
Tutorial .... 10/13 .. 0:19 ... 0:19 .................. 0
Atas Park . 10/13 .. 2:09 ... 2:28 ......... 181,564
................ 10/13 .. 0:10 ... 2:38 .......... 62,772 *
................ 10/13 .. 0:16 ... 2:54 ........ 758,333
................ 10/13 .. 0:24 ... 3:18 ...... 1,423,571 *1
................ 10/15 .. 0:33 ... 3:51 ...... 2,483,144
................ 10/16 .. 0:23 ... 4:14 ...... 3,827,197
................ 10/17 .. 0:30 ... 4:44 ...... 5,499,511
................ 10/18 .. 0:31 ... 5:15 ...... 7,154,429
................ 10/19 .. 0:31 ... 5:46 ...... 8,784,859
................ 10/19 .. 0:28 ... 6:14 ..... 10,413,797 *2

Notes: 7 transaction slots, 4 recipes/trip, 1-way trip time - 32 seconds

* This number dropped because I had just placed all of my market buys prior to seeing what it
was. All other amounts were listed before placing the end-of-session (Cycle Step #2) buys.

*1 It took about 3 hours to become a millionaire from scratch!

*2 Roughly 3 hours after that, he reached the 10M goal.


CHART 2
---------

On the Villain side, I took my currently active character. This fellow is well funded already (having 75M),
but I wanted to show two things using him. The first is that the strategy works just as well for villains, and
the other is that the technique is much more effective for higher level characters. Since he already
has infamy, I just documented a 10 Million net increase in his current wealth.


"FJI" - L25 Villain

........................ PLAY .. TOTAL ........ NET
ZONE ..... DATE .. TIME .. HOURS ... INFAMY
---------------------------------------------------
Sharkhead 10/22 .. 0:04 .. 0:04 .............. 0
............... 10/23 .. 0:16 .. 0:20 .... 3,673,387
............... 10/23 .. 0:21 .. 0:41 .... 6,762,571
............... 10/23 .. 0:13 .. 0:54 ... 10,484,751 *3

Notes: 15 transaction slots, 12 recipes/trip, 1-way trip time - 11 seconds

*3 Slightly less than 1 game hour to earn 10M infamy!

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one... I have toons with SJ and I have toons with
Fly, and I much prefer the latter - even for PvP. Believe it, or don't, I don't have trouble
tracking targets with capped (or near capped) flight speed ... obviously YMV...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you have to turn Fly off and retoggle it every minute or so to keep the stealth.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% incorrect. In a toggle (ie. Fly) the stealth is always on (except when surpressed
post-attack) and it's on for 2 mins after toggling fly off...

[ QUOTE ]
Hm? I never use Trops for damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither do I. Evidently, I wasn't clear on this point -- even though the damage is minimal, the
AI is *so* stupid they'll try to run... That means fewer attacks for them and free attacks for
me == they die... That won't work against players - even dumb ones...

[ QUOTE ]
That's only because they don't expect fliers because Flight isn't nearly as good as
Leaping or Speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even better for me...


I'll be interested to see what you add when you get around to your update - Carry On!


Cheers,
4

Enjoyed your guide.

A few supplemental thoughts I'd like to add...

Personally, I like Fly as a (stealthed) PvP travel power for these reasons:<ul type="square">[*] It's hands-off and trouble free -- minimal steering required... [*] It's easy to "patrol" - you can spot targets from quite a distance (esp since Ninja's have
+perception), and you can easily pick your ideal combat spots.[*] Few (if any) folks will get within 10ft of you up there, so even +perception players won't
see you through capped Stealth. At least 2/3rds of players are ground-bound (or jumpers -
ie. mostly ground-bound). Most NPC's are also ground-bound as well... [*] A couple Flight Speed IO/SO's makes it fast enough to track most "targets" [*] Air Superiority isn't usually a factor because the target is dead before they can use it (if you're
setting up your attacks properly)[*] Freebird Stealth is relatively easy to get, and inexpensive, compared to other Stealth IO's
(mine cost 2M iirc), and if you put it in an active toggle (ie. Fly), you're *always* stealth capped -
until you choose to make something die (and barring suppression, it'll still be capped for 2 minutes) [*] As suprising as it seems, many (most?) PvP'ers think 2 dimensionally (ie. they'll look around, but
they rarely look UP (or DOWN).[/list]I agree with you about Acrobatics (I didn't take it). Instead, I put a Karma in... That solves
90% of the KB issues for PvE, and again, if your attacks are set up properly, it's usually not
a PvP problem either.

I agree with your view of Caltrops... Very useful in both PvE and PvP... The PvE AI is dumb
enough to think those 1 hp damage ticks will kill them, so they'll turn to run rather than fight,
which means you get to make them die easier... Players are much smarter, but what they
might not realize is that those tiny damage ticks make a 1-shot AS kill possible (since they're
no longer at full health).


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

4 dmg So's 1 recharge DO and 1 Recharge DO equals frequent medical
visits for defenders and controllers.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once you get SO's as I, and many others alluded to earlier, here and in
other threads, 1-shot of squishies is possible then...

However, *try* it with only DO's...

Further, without Acc's in AS, you'll whiff a LOT against players with
defense powers and buffs.

My L20 Stalker has DO's (and blessed few of them, at that). I can
absolutely promise you that if I *was* assured of a 1-shot kill using just
BU + AS, I most definitely would NOT be spending infamy on
inspirations *every* kill (or missed opportunity - when the insps were
totally wasted) as I currently need to do now.

That said, I'm fine with that being the case -- I *know* how frustrating it
is to be 1-shotted, and I think the amount of time and resources it takes
to achieve it is fair, even if the 'victim' doesn't see, understand, or care
about that side of it... Not surprisingly, they only care about their death,
which, because it was *quick* also seems to equate to *easy* for us to
do, in their minds... Put simply, that is a mistaken (but understandable)
perception.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

Police Bot or Arbiter Drone now give a medium radius +Perception buff
to Players only who are standing near them. Once a player leaves that
radius, the +Perception falls off very quickly. This was done to prevent
a pretty nasty exploit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clarification Castle -- much appreciated.

Perhaps I'm inferring too much here, however, if the change was to
prevent a perceived exploit, the inferrence (to me) is that there are
(intentionally???) no true safe zones per se... ie. if a player can still
sneak into the area (when an enemy player *isn't* present) it still opens
up the possibility of a fight, albeit the 'victim' has a much better chance
to see the attack coming if he's near a drone when he does show up...

Hmmmm.... That raises some interesting implications, I think...


Regards,
4

As others have noted, my understanding is that drones will buff a
player's perception when he's near them, and drones don't give debt...
Also, they're placing the initial introduction contacts outside of these
zones.

I think all of these are *good* things, and I *play* a Stalker (mostly in
Bloody Bay)...

There's really two questions at work here, and to the best of my
knowledge, the Devs have clarified neither of them...

1&gt; Should players be able to camp (and affect enemy players) in
a 'safe zone', like a hospital, or zone-in point?

2&gt; Is the *entire* Hero/Villain zone considered a 'safe zone', or do the
Devs *want* to see Base sieges???


My take on these is this:

I feel there *should* be some 'safe space', whether it be the hospital,
the zone-in point, whatever, and I feel it should be well marked, and
absolutely impossible to violate, albeit, a fairly small area...

I also feel that the entire base area should NOT be considered a 'safe
zone'. Base Sieges are a pretty cool dynamic, and I've watched (and
participated) in many of them in Bloody Bay (both Hero and Villain). The
ebb and flow of these battles is desirable... Sadly, however, I've also
seen 'abuses' on both sides that lessen the fun value of those sieges
considerably...

I'd like to see the small, inviolate 'safe zones' clearly marked
with "WARNING!!! Maximum Security Area" signs, and protected by
Drones which a&gt; Give NO Debt b&gt; Have Max perception -- seeing
through ALL stealth c&gt; Having Double Range (beyond tp foe) d&gt;
Double their fire rate.

In short, if you go there, you are 100% guaranteed a free, 1-way pass
straight back to your own base (woot!!! a free travel power)

Obviously, the 'safe zone' should be pretty small, assuming the Devs
want such a place at all...


For the Bases in general, I'm fine with turrets, npcs and all the
other 'defenses' except the drones... Let Players fight for control of
bases, without being able to gank players who just zoned in, or are in
the infirmary... A lot of those fights are pretty cool imho (though quite
deadly to us Stalkers out there)


The biggest issue to me is that there currently is no 'true' safe zone, and
the base defenses are feeble enough to prove it -- regularily. While my
own particular toons have never been impacted by this (so far), I've
seen several that have...

It would be nice to see a Red Name response to those two questions at
some point giving a clear statement on this whole issue...

Still, I'm 100% fine with the Drone changes so far, and it further doesn't
surprise me at all that they're also starting to add some resistances to
TpFoe as well... Fairly predictable changes, I think...

Of course, that's just my opinion... YMMV


Regards,
4

This is such a stickler of an issue all the way round... The tough part is
that both sides of it can feel totally abused, and they're right...

I've been running a Nin/Nin Stalker for 20 lvls now, mostly PvP (since
L15), with enough PvE to level and buy a few meager trinkets... I'll
reflect on some of the things I've personally experienced...

Whether it's the way things *should* be, or not, I'll leave open for you
all to debate...

My toon is designed, built and slotted to be a lone hunter - he is intended
to be a 1v1 assassin, pure and simple... He currently (at L20) has DO's
in AS, and some toggles... that's it! TO's in the other powers... (the
Infamy crunch is absolutely wretched in CoV, but that's a different
discussion)

He is currently enjoying a 4-1 kill ratio, which, on the surface doesn't
sound too bad (I'm keeping those stats on paper since the PvP rep bug(s)
reset it all the time)... However...

Here are some observational facts pertaining to this:
<ul type="square">[*] In a full evening (4-5 hours) of Stalking Bloody Bay, I get 5-
10 kills, and die once or twice... That's roughly 30-35 Minutes (on
average) of hunting between kills.[*] BU + AS will NOT 1-shot *anyone* currently with full health,
although it's close with defenders...[*] Without inspirations, many of my AS strikes MISS against players
with defenses (toggles, buffs and the like). When the target is solo, I
can always escape (so far) -- if the target is part of a team (depending
on size and makeup), I usually burn through all of my inspirations, and
frequently still die.[*] Of my 8 deaths (currently) ALL of them but 2 occurred against teams
(those other 2 were the result of skulking around the hero base) [*] Of my 31 Kills, only 1/4 were against teams (~ 1-1 Kill Ratio), and
the rest were against individuals (or perhaps paired duos)[*] It usually takes several minutes to set up a kill. I reserve 1/2 of my
inspiration tray to give me the best chance to do so (the other 1/2 of the
tray is for escape)[*] 1v1 melee with anyone but the most inexperienced PvP'rs is a losing
proposition for me -- I have *never* won a 1v1 (unhidden) melee fight
(I've never died to 1 either, but it was usually me being the one forced
to bail first)[*] For every kill I've gotten, I've usually missed 2-4 other attempts,
usually because the target saw me at the last second, or coincidentally
moved out of AS range, or in a couple cases was "rescued" by a hero
who could see me -- prompting my escape at the cost of multiple
inspirations.[*] In general, in Bloody Bay, I find that most individuals cannot (or do
not) see me until it is too late, and most teams usually DO see me
whenever I start to close in to set up an attack (I have Hide/Stealth).[/list]
That covers much of the 20-30 hours of PvP time I currently have on
my Stalker...

My Conclusions
<ul type="square">[*] I *like* this AT... I *enjoy* carefully finding, following a target, and
patiently waiting until the opportunity to strike. When I do those things
exactly right, with inspirations as part of the preparation process, I am
rewarded with a kill -- it costs me a bunch of time, and a fair amount of
infamy to ensure that reward[*]If my target selection is poor, or I get unlucky, it *still* costs me a
lot of time, even more inspirations, and usually a trip to the infirmary...[*]Given the relatively few kills I get per night, it's rare that I get the
same person more than once, and I've *never* (that I know of) gotten
anybody more than twice in the same night.[*]Given the sheer mulitude of things that can prevent a successful
attack from me, many are the potential targets I pass by, and nearly as
many are the ones who get away...[*] If it's presumed that my Stalker shouldn't be that kind of careful
hunter, I can't honestly think of any reason to play him in preference to
a Brute or some such other AT... For me, it is the patient, methodical
hunt, rewarded with the occasional kill that IS the point... This AT is the
cheetah hunting the antelope (all but one of the herd gets away), rather
than the pack of wolves who attack en masse...[/list]As always, YMMV - I hope they don't remove this AT's ability to do what
it does best... Yep, it IS a killer, but (imho) it's NOT a gamebreaker...

Flame Away Gents...

Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

That's a mission-specific bug.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting... I've seen it in other cases, but generally, it seems to
occur most in missions where the NPC doesn't zone out after being led
to the rescue point...

I'll /bug it going forward in missions where I see it, so the specific
missions are identifiable for the Devs... Thanks for the info.



For the record, I have to say this in general regarding the NPC's...

I have ZERO issue with the fact that NPC's *cannot* see me when
hidden. In fact, I consider it a Feature!!! Here's why:

At the risk of this being considered an 'exploit' (I hope it isn't), I can
leave the NPC where I found him, or even lead him somewhere 'safe'
(say a little alcove room in the office complex). This seems sensible to
me in a 'dangerous' situation with a non-combatant.

In general, most of the ambushes are looking for YOU, not the NPC
(there are probably some exceptions). As a Stalker, I DON'T want the
baggage of a non-combatant NPC. I DO want to be able to deal with
the ambushes in my own time, on my own terms, and at a location of my
choosing -- this works quite nicely with the NPC tucked safely away...

Once I've dealt with them, and/or cleared the path to the escort point, I
can unhide, retrieve the NPC, and calmly walk to where we need to go...

Frankly, I *like* that capability... YMMV


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

Kidnappee's and other non-combatants still cannot see you, though.


[/ QUOTE ]

There still is another 'bug' associated with hostages imho (I bugged it in
a mission from Marshall Brass last night)

The base scenario:

It was the mission to rescue some workers... (None of these help with
the fights).

When I found the first one, and rescued him, he couldn't see me in
hide... This is the 'normal' behaviour...

Then, I unhid, and led him back to the mission point... He said
his "Thanks"

Then, I went back into Hide to look for the others... NOW, he could
follow me, and proceeded to do so for the remainder of the mission...

The second hostage did the same...

The third completed the mission.

However, since there were still mobs left for me to subdue, I found that
all 3 were tagging along wherever I went in a nice little hostage herd

Realistically, they should probably go static/passive once they reach the
rescue point (if they're not going to zone out when they do)


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

It makes Port Oakes feel more like Detroit!


[/ QUOTE ]

rofl -- this from a guy listing himself as in Chicago...

Pot, Kettle, please meet Mr. Black...


4

Absolutely!

My toon is a "contract assassin" -- Freelancing the loners in the zone is
the way I keep my skills tuned up for those high-profile missions The
Radio gives me

Actually, I also like what another poster stated... The luxury of standing
alone in the Isles, unguarded, uncaring, is supreme arrogance
associated with either A&gt; Extreme Power B&gt; Extreme Foolishness...

I choose to test both cases: Fools suffer my blade... Those with true
power deserve my respect -- from a distance, while I'm healing my
wounds... until next time...


Regards,
4


PS&gt; This leads to the next question: Is there any Stalker who *doesn't*
take the newspaper missions where any old "Joe Toughguy" calls you
out???

[ QUOTE ]

but it really doesn't make sense that a bad guy would notice a "Whiff" and all of a sudden be able to see us.


[/ QUOTE ]

"see" may be a bit strong a term, however bear in mind we're talking
about a game, so its "reality quotient" is nowhere near perfect...

That said, consider: someone sneaks up behind you with a baseball
bat, and just as they try to play Home-run Derby with your head, you
happen to bend over to pick up a quarter you just spotted lying on the
ground...

The attack misses, but I'd bet, that you'd hear the whoosh of the bat
going over your head, and feel a slight breeze from it as it goes over,
and you may even hear some clothing rustle as he moves... I'll further
bet you have a pretty good idea, by that stage, where the attack came
from, even if you can't "see" him perfectly...

Extend it just a tad further... Now, you're a trained soldier guarding an
installation in an active combat area -- Odds are you'd be even more
alert, and far likelier to respond quickly and violently, and if you do hit
the attacker you'll have a *real good idea* where he is...

... I'm fine with an AS miss making you 'visible', but, AS should have a
very significant accuracy bonus, given that you've assessed, plotted,
and patiently maneuvered into position to deliver the fatal strike -- it
should be a near-lock to hit under those conditions (imho).

As for placate, it's definitely a bit goofy, but I solve the problem by
taking a shot on the chin first -- In other words, don't cast it until the
attacker has fired his shot -- odds are pretty good that the one shot
won't kill you, and that way, you know there'll be enough time delay to
get the placate, in exchange for some risk of damage... In PvP, of
course, that is much more problematic, and I'm glad Castle et al are
willing to look at it.

What irritates me is ambushes that can find you while Hidden, or the
guy chasing you after placate wears off -- even tho you're Hidden *and*
out of aggro range (Placate should be a viable *withdrawl* tactic as well
as a viable kill tactic), or the guys that can still find you even though
you've broken LoS, got out of aggro range and are Hidden, or getting
attacked by a mob group as part of a team member's aggro even
though you didn't attack yet, and you are Hidden... Those, are just plain
silly... I sincerely hope those get addressed...


Regards,
4

Thanks for enriching this little place called Paragon City - your writing
did much to make it a fascinating place to visit and be a part of....

I have no doubt you'll bring such richness to your future projects as well.


Best Wishes,
4

Thanks much for the "Head's Up" geko - much appreciated!

Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]

No, your opinion is simply not valid by the fact it's different from my own


[/ QUOTE ]
This may be the 'truest' comment you've ever made -- or perhaps the
most sincere...

[ QUOTE ]

if you're going to start to take offense at our disagreements, this place
is just going to fall apart.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hardly... We have LOTS of very opinionated ppl here -- I'm confident
they'll argue very effectively regardless of what we discuss...

As for offense -- if you differ with my opinion, that leads to fine (and
usually interesting) discussion If you start trying to tell me what I can
and cannot post, we're having 'issues' One Good - Other Bad

[ QUOTE ]

What I meant is that people shouldn't comment on the usability or
effectiveness of a post nerf power without using it first, even if only on test.


[/ QUOTE ]
We differ here a bit... I'm generally against DOOM criers, but I have no
major issue with folks offering well thought out opinions on powers
based on their own experience, and the experience of others. For
instance, I have not used the new QFly (as mentioned, I did have the I4
version for 9+ levels). When I read the posts saying your flight is 80
seconds MAX, I *know* this is definitely inferior to what it was, and I
can certainly infer that it is probably a Bad Thing for a "travel power". I
also have read that End is unchanged, so you're paying roughly 8 End /
Sec for a very limited power... I don't need to go to Test to realize I can
get the same benefits cheaper, or to realize that 80 seconds doesn't
meet my requirements for a travel power... That isn't the same as
screaming DOOM, however

[ QUOTE ]

I'm just getting fed up with the negativity and inflexibility. People just
fall into a cycle of bitterness and paranoia and if nothing is done


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm inclined to agree here, but... while I understand the importance
to 'adapting to changes', I also understand that Human Nature
fundamentally resists change, and people get particularily pissy when
that change is perceived as A&gt; Large and/or B&gt; Needless.... As I've
alluded to frequently, I can't help but wonder why I'm being forced to
adapt my toons (sometimes radically) every time a new patch goes
live... Further, the perception is one of Needless change for features the
vast majority of players don't use and don't want, or care about... That
fosters a lot of (well deserved imho) anger and frustration given the
time invested in building those characters... Couple that with vague, or
in some cases, outright idiotic explanation/justification from some of the
Devs, and I can definitely see why the mood turns ugly here wrt
change. That's sad and unfortunate, but it's also fairly well earned, I
think, in spite of the fact that we also realize the Devs are folks like us
presumably trying to do a good job... However, it doesn't take away the
simple fact that some of these things should have been better thought
out, and handled a LONG time ago before thousands of people spent
untold hours building, learning and becoming attached to their particular
characters... We're seeing fundamental change to basic powersets that
really should have been handled back before the game was released.

[ QUOTE ]

A post from someone who's opinion actually means something around
here can have a large effect on which way the balance swings.


[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect this is grossly overstated Consider there are only a couple
thousand posters total, and of those, only a few hundred "regulars"
(names we all recognize), and a lot of times they don't even agree with
each other in many cases Couple that with the kinds of questions we
see here daily (ie 'does Hasten work in forms?') and it's reasonably
clear that many folks don't even read the FAQ, let alone anything 'in-
depth' that's been written... I suspect our words are far less weighty
than we'd prefer

[ QUOTE ]

With that in mind, I tried PS myself tonight and found it decent, but not
worth it for me. Less Phase time, more power choices, and longer
activation add up to far more downsides than the cost of QFly, but that's
where our opinions and builds differ. I'll agree that the End cost needs
to be looked at. It's simply far too high for the limited utility of the
power. I still think the power's worth taking, just not as amazing as it
used to be.


[/ QUOTE ]
Here we go -- Now, to me, *this* is the interesting part, and thankfully,
there's no 'right' answer. I switched to PS because I think it's more cost-
effective than QFly presently while still handling the basic needs I
wanted to solve in the first place. You find that QFly is still useable
(though less valued than before), and I think we both agree it still needs
changes. That said, I liked some of the other suggestions made about it,
and I really hope they consider them seriously.

Finally, that's the true beauty of Kheldians (over most other AT's imho).
We can build them radically different from each other, and both be
completely convinced that our particular builds will perform well in the
roles we've picked for them. You know what? We're both right about that


Regards,
4


PS&gt; I'm not intending on posting anymore in this thread, as I think
we've gotten WAY off topic here, considering the title...

[ QUOTE ]

And Four, you can't really comment on it if you respec'd out before the
change even hit. The worst thing about these boards is the sheer
number of people who look at numbers and cry DOOOOM before trying
them in game. I've still not respec'd out myself and I'm still using QFly
for long distance travel (though I'll change that eventually, I hate feeling
rushed when I'm cruising contacts). If people would try to figure out
what they CAN do with changes rather than look at the numbers and
assume what they can't, there would be a heck of a lot less DOOM on
these boards.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I can comment on it... Obviously, I have been

First, I had it for nearly 10 (I4) levels, so I'm familiar how it used to
work, and I'm really quite clear on what I wanted the power to do... In
my build, I could never perma-QF even in I4, so that was no big deal,
however, I did use it as a couple minute multi zone travel power, and
the Phase was pretty much used only when I missed seeing a void, or
on one or two occasions when things got 'out of hand' in a battle...

As such, I have every confidence that I could still use it mostly the
same way... albeit with more monitoring, and significantly less 'value'.

Further, I will point out that at NO time did I *ever* claim DOOM as a
result of this change. In fact, I stated the exact opposite in the
Consolidated Thread...

What I *did* say is that pool power Phase Shift will cover the same 'oh
sh*t' issues (earlier, for one slot, and no End issues), making QFly as it
stands right now, grossly overpriced for the benefits it delivers...IMO

Why I respec'd out of it early (using a freespec I'd have lost anyway)
was to test whether Concealment pool was a viable replacement...
Having used that for a month, I can clearly say, that it is quite viable,
and while it costs two more powers -- those are both useful...

Now, you are certainly entitled to have an alternate opinion, and if you
prefer Qfly in your build -- please be my guest...

However, whether you agree or not, I'd appreciate it if you'd [censored] about
telling me what I can and cannot comment on, tyvm -- My opinion is no
less valid or thought out than yours....

That stated, I may well reconsider QFly in the future if, or when, they
make some (much needed imho) adjustments to the power to make it
worthy of the level at which it becomes available... I think some of the
suggestions made on the boards have been quite noteworthy, and I
hope they receive due consideration from the Devs... We'll see...


Regards,
4

I'd be happy with any of those... However, I'd prefer the 'Phase' options
(I think you meant your last option to be Flight/Stealth).

As it stands now, it's not worth it to me at all as an L28 power... I won't
even think about taking it as it as presently implemented -- In fact, I'm
seriously glad I dumped it ahead of time...

While the nerf was fully predicted, the implementation was unexpected...

Someone (I forgot who) - called it a 'Stealth Buff' Frankly, I agree...
I'll take my slots, and my L28 power choice and put 'em elsewhere.
"End crash"??? What crash??? This change just further reduced the
need for Stamina in my book... "QFly nerf for 1000, Alex"

That said, if one of your suggestions was implemented, I might rethink it...

But not as it stands currently...


Regards,
4


PS&gt; Shouldn't these posts be in a different thread on say, QFly, rather
than in an overall issue thread??? Just asking....

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this... If not, I appologize,
but it concerns Endurance Recovery in the Nova form power that I
tested a couple weeks ago, and I didn't want the numbers to get lost
when the post rolls off the Kheldy board (as has already happened with
my Quantum Flight and Pulsar tests)...

------------------ Endurance Recovery in Nova Form -----------------------

Test Conditions:

L32 PB on Test (I4) using (+3) L35 SO's... Timing method used: Run Quantum Flight
for total endurance drain. Start stopwatch and Nova bind key as soon as QFly drops,
and count time when Endurance bar first pegs.... No other powers active during recharge...
All testing was done without Hasten or Stamina...

Tested slots 0, 2, 4, 6 for EndRcv, and replaced a Rcv with a Rdx till even...
(hopefully my chart will make that clearer...)

Here's what I found, followed by my take on it...


TOTAL ----- END --- END ----- TIME TO
SLOTS ----- RCV --- RDX ----- FULL END

-- 0 --------- 0 ------ 0 ------- 60 seconds

-- 2 --------- 2 ------ 0 ------- 52
-- 2 --------- 1 ------ 1 ------- 55

-- 4 --------- 4 ------ 0 ------- 48
-- 4 --------- 3 ------ 1 ------- 50
-- 4 --------- 2 ------ 2 ------- 51

-- 6 --------- 6 ------ 0 ------- 45
-- 6 --------- 5 ------ 1 ------- 46
-- 6 --------- 4 ------ 2 ------- 46
-- 6 --------- 3 ------ 3 ------- 47


Caveats and Recommendations

1&gt; My stopwatch times are to the nearest second, but bear in mind that there's some
variance here, both in the mechanical clicking (ie. 'twitch skills') and judging when
the End bar first pegs... They can realistically differ by a second or two.

2&gt; Now, for the interesting part (YMMV): NONE of the timings where EndRdx was
slotted - improved the time (over straight EndRcv). In some cases, it kept the times
similar, but never better. To me, this means that the End usage of the form is
actually quite small, to the point where, even over the full 60 second recovery window,
the drain is minimal... So, here are my recommendations:
<ul type="square">[*]Forget the idea of EndRdx in form - it buys you nothing and wastes a slot[*]Figure 2.5 seconds quicker endurance recovery per SO slot than normal...
(based on prior testing with even SO's before I added the EndRdx column)[*]Put as many EndRcv slots in as you are comfortable with based on the above math.
Personally, I'm likely to put 3 or 4 EndRcv in Nova, and put the 2-3 extra slots elsewhere...[*]Stamina is 2X as effective as Nova Form for End Recovery, but, bear in mind that
Stamina requires 2 other power choices as well... This may not make it worthwhile,
depending on your specific build or goals...[/list]
Regards,
4

The Shard is hands-down my favourite zone in the game -- bar none...

That said, I'll add -- I *really* like the changes made there, especially
the improved teleporting capability...

As someone else noted, I too could NOT see jump points or their 'routes'
on my maps either... Perhaps a different color (purple maybe) could be
used to make them stand out from the earth tones used on those maps
(assuming they are in fact marked, and not a bug)

Apart from that issue, very nice, and much appreciated - Thanks!

Regards,
4

The -30% penalty was removed with I4

Regards,
4

Good Thread -- a few more I've seen...

anchor - a mob that is debuffed (usually by Defenders) which also affects
other nearby mobs and lasts till cancelled, caster runs out of end, or a
n00b kills it - usually, really irritating your Defender...

camp - hanging around a specific spot waiting for a particular mob spawn ie.
'Let's camp Royal Refinery for the Paladin'.

dc'd - disconnected
Dirt Nap - a player who got killed by a mob
Dwarf - one of the forms a Kheldian can use.

faces - Banished Pantheon Spirit Masks (they're a badge) ie. 'Let's go
kill some faces at the DA gate'

gtg - Got to Go (no question)
gd2g - Good to Go

herd - tactic used to gather large groups of villains for nukes.

Kheld - a Kheldian AT (Peacebringer or Warshade)

Lobster - slang for Dwarf (sometimes you'll see Crab instead).

Mort - A Vahzilok Mortificator

Ock, Octo - Lusca the (monster) Octopus in IP

pl - Power Level
pl'r - a player who power levels

squid - another Kheldian form, or slang for the AT in general
squishy - a player with very weak defense - ie. 'Don't let anyone melee
our Blaster -- he's squishy'
SWC - Skyway City

tank - The archtype, or as a verb 'to obtain mob aggro, and/or herd mobs"

And last, one of my own

biff - to de-buff a mob (the opposite of buffing a hero). ie. 'I'll biff
the Mort, you guys hit the Eidolan - kill the Mort anchor last'

Regards,
4