FourSpeed

/this.

I changed my Account password a few times last night to no avail.
Changing the Game password today fixed it.

I can't check if that ****** my game login yet, but I'll verify that when
I get home this evening.

Thanks for the tip!

Regards,
4

If it was a floating / updated price based on history, I agree.

To Lohenien's point, I also agree that the market isn't *broken*, but as a programmer,
I'd consider things selling above a physical cap (ie. 2B limit) as problematic
to the game (though I fully appreciate and enjoy Raggy's "Cap Prices" position).

So, if I were a dev for this game, and I *really* felt that 2B+ items had to be
corrected, I'd put just those items in a store for, say 1.5B flat price...

Sure, the first few days, savvy players could get rich on arbitrage transactions,
but that would be pretty short lived, the off-market sales would stop, and the
equilibrium price would settle to ~1.5B in fairly short order.

To be sure, that would raise supply, and I'd be somewhat concerned about that,
but I think off-market trading above the inf cap is a bigger issue (game-wise).

Additionally, any that sell at all from the vendor take a whopping 1.5 Billion
straight out of the economy...

WW needs a LOT of volume to accomplish that...

That said, I would only consider that on a case-by-case basis, or in a situation,
where I think a clear price cap would be useful (ie. perhaps Common Salvage,
like Common IO recipes, for instance).

Unlike mauk however, I'm not in favor of things that "devalue inf". I much prefer
the players to set supply, demand, and pricing for things (below 2B though,
to keep them ON the market).


Regards,
4

Hmmmm, that's an interesting bug/mechanic.

I think that bears some testing (not that I'm discounting the possibility of a bug,
mind you). A few years ago, peterpeter along with a few volunteers did some
investigating into "ties" - ie. if several items are listed for the same price, is there
a way to tell who will get the sale?

The upshot of that testing (iirc) was: there IS a consistent order to break ties, that
seemed to rely on a pseudo-random sequence that wasn't LIFO, FIFO or an
obvious chronological tiebreaker.

In other words, it appeared that a random "ordered queue" was built for like-items,
which set the sales order they would be sold. While there was no telling what it
would initially be, once you observed the order, it was consistent while there were
still tied items.

In any case, I don't recall any mention of a "locked" queue, although you are
definitely correct about not being to buy the very same item your character listed
using the same character.

You can, of course, buy items that one of your characters listed, using a different
character - this was the basis for Market Transfers pre-Gleemail.

Finding a completely empty niche to verify this should be a fairly straight forward
exercise. I for one would be curious as this is a case I've not heard about.


Regards,
4


PS> As for the original complaint, Grouchy's point was valid enough to warrant
editting my original reply, so it is correct as posted now.

Fair Enough.

Amended Organica's listed to 11 - now we could infer that the 22 bids
are lowball bids at 10 or less...


Regards,
4

Now you come along with a Circuit Board, and say "hey, I can probably
get 55,000 for it", so you list it for that.

Then, Organica comes along and lists his Circuit Board out there for 11.

Now, I come along and I *really* want a Circuit Board NAO, and I'll even overpay
for it.

So, I throw out a 75,000 bid, and sure enough, I get one... But who's?

I actually get Organica's because Highest Bid buys Lowest List when Bid > List.

Yours at 55000 was more expensive than his at 11, so my 75,0000 got his.

Now, the new history looks like this:
...and you're left wondering why yours didn't sell to the 75,000 bid...


Regards,
4



Edit: Amended to make Grouchy happy...

Required? Definitely not.

Useful and Helpful? Sure.

That said, keep in mind that on most of the iTrials I've been on (primarily BAF
& Lambda), there are usually several buffers and debuffers that will affect You,
and/or the Mobs.

It's not unusual to have a few folks casting staggered Barrier def buffs as well.

That said, also bear in mind that the softcap is higher in iTrials than the 45% it
typically is for standard content.

So, my advice? Build your AT the way you intended - if that's with softcap defenses,
fine... If not, don't sweat it.


Regards,
4

For me? Solo? Relaxing?

Piece of cake - it's any of my (several) stalkers.

Wanna kill a standard 3 spawn? AS #1, Placate #2, Crit & finish #3, and
then go back & kill #2... 5-10 secs tops. 10 to 15 (???) button presses, total...

Don't wanna kill a spawn? No Problem - ignore them and wander on by to the
next thing you want to do...

Just want to wander to the back of the mission and click the glowie? Fine.

Inspies? In an evening play session I could count (on 1 hand) the number
I'd use all night...

The Pace is whatever you want it to be...

Now, is it optimal for rewards? Certainly not...

If I want *that*, I dig out a Brute...


Regards,
4

I'm probably gonna hate myself for saying this, but:

If the devs really want to "cap" the market, it's extremely simple.

Put the edge case items In A Store. That's right, I said it.

The obvious thing it fixes is exorbitant price. Common IO's have a de-facto
price cap because, if the market gets out-of-line, you buy from a table.

Thus, the price typically won't get (much) higher than that.

The other benefit, to Fulmen's point, is that ALL store transactions destroy
ALL of that influence, not just a paltry 10%.

I'm not sure how I would feel about them actually doing that, but I'm 100%
certain it would set a real price cap, prevent off-market (player 2 player) transactions,
and very probably destroy more inf over time.


Regards,
4

No, I think it is laughable or pathetic, take your pick.

I think PvP is dead...

The *only* point I've been trying to make is that PvP has ZERO bearing on the
remainder of the game, and so, I completely disagree with the second part of the
thread's title.

In short, a few hundred people (ie. the pvp community) has no effect on the
thousands (how ever many actual thousands there are) of players still playing
the PVE content.

Someone earlier mentioned that 8 was ok in zone due to Maintenance that day,
but I'd just finished a full team Manticore run and there were several broadcasts
for ITF and LGTF groups, along with the usual "AE PL runs" - there were plenty
of people on - just none that care about PvP.

Of course, a few folks with extremely short attention spans lost track of the
actual point (and thread title), over debating the game's population (which regardless
of the actual "current" numbers still dwarfs the PvP crowd) ...

I think the thread title is only half right, and the second part is ludicrous unless
an actual correlation can be demonstrated.

Anyway, that horse is long dead, and were it anyone other than you, mac,
I'd have not even bothered to reply at all...

lolPvP sums it up perfectly.


Regards,
4

PS> Would I like the devs to fix PvP? Sure. Will the game die if they don't?
Definitely not...

That's a valid point, but the presumption would be that, on average, there would
be more transactions at equilibrium price than there would be in the high volatility case.

Sure, the few folks who shell out big cash would destroy a lot of inf, but more
folks shelling out equilibrium cash would lead to more inf destruction on the whole,
over time.

That said, I think the far larger service the flipper supplies is an assured supply
at a stabler (relatively speaking) pricepoint.


Regards,
4

It makes them more relevant than *anything* you've contributed to the thread,
especially since they were published either side of the dreaded PvP 2 release...

I've yet to see a single one of you three "pundits" (Malkore, BWraith and you),
offer any numbers at all - not even estimates.

You're quick to say published numbers are wrong (with the implication that NCsoft
is lying with their figures), and you think my 100K is equally wrong, but apparently
none of you have stones enough to supply numbers of your own.

Of course, that doesn't preclude spouting FUD and Doom in the absence of any
useful information.

So, since you evidently have a far more sensitive finger on the pulse of the game
than the folks who are actually running it, I'll ask you straight up - If those
numbers are wrong, what IS the real playerbase count? Is it 75K? 50K? 20K? 5000?

What is it?

To hear Malkore tell it, if the devs don't fix PvP and you 3, along with the rest of
the (nebulous) PvP community leave, NCsoft will have no recourse but to shut
its doors since there'll evidently be nobody left to play the game...

Amusingly, I went into SC last night... There were 8, EIGHT people (counting me)
in-zone and 6 of the 7 others were names I immediately recognized. lol.

On any given day, there are more folks in Pocket D running BAF's then there
are in all the PvP zones combined... On Freedom...

But, I forget - we're in the PvP forum, where simple sense, rational thought,
and intelligent discourse frequently have little or no place...

So, with that in mind, I'll simply say "Thanks for the warning about the impending
demise of the game -- I'm happy to know that we have experts like you guys
to help us blind folks see the obvious import that PvP has on the game as a whole".

I'll accord this dire warning with all the respect it so richly deserves, by siding
with Slax on this one...

c ya...

Wander into SC sometime, and when he shoves a Katana up your keester,
you'll be able to read the chat log to see the name...

...and your numbers are... where???
...and your PvP player counts are... where???

Obvious troll is obvious...

Enjoy your continued delusions of Doom kids...

I for one, and thousands of players like me, fully expect to be enjoying this
game for several years to come - even if they don't change a single thing in PvP...

To those I'd add:

#4) Purple & PvP sets - these will raise performance even higher with correspondingly
larger bonuses, but an even larger still price tag in most cases.


Regards,
4

If you ran a hero in SC on Freedom prior to the past few months (where I've
quite frankly had more interesting things to do), then there's a fairly good chance
that my Scottish themed Stalker crammed a Katana up your Keester ... probably
several times...

Sure.
As of 2008 - here
As of 2009 - here

In fact, it appears from those links that my estimate is actually 20% *LOW* at 100K.

Oh, and before your predictable (but worthless) point of "those numbers are old",
might I remind you that PvP 2.0 occurred in I-13 (Dec. 2008) - right in-between
*those* numbers...

As for my in-zone estimates, those are by direct observation, and extensive
use of /playernotes. As a Stalker, oddly enough, I actually note Global names,
and Player builds... Go Figure.

That all said, since you Malkore, are the one making the idiotic Doom claims,
where are *your* numbers?

Specifically the ones that show:

A> The existing PvP community is actually a statistically relevant segment of the
current playerbase (ie. > 1-2%), or heck, even that there's more than the few
hundred people I'm estimating in that community.

B> the existing PvP community as any effect on the rest of the game right now.

C> If PvP isn't fixed, and the entire PvP community left, how it would have *any*
significant effect on the rest of the game then.


In short, you can think whatever you want about me, but that doesn't lessen
the simple fact that your Doom claims are at best, very dubious, but far liklier,
just idiotic BS...


Oh, and if *this* is the most intelligent response you can make:
My work here is already done...


Regards,
4

Define "significant portion of the potential player base"...

I pvp regularly on Freedom.

Not counting AFK farmers, or Shivan and Nuke collectors, or the occasional
S/VG trying to grab badges (as quietly as possible) here's how it IS in zone.

BB & WB -- Crickets...

SC - About 2 dozen regulars -- since that is the zone I prefer, I can probably
name nearly all of them...

RV - A hundred or so (altogether) - I don't know most of them, but I see the same
Globals whenever I am in there...

That is ON the "so-called" PvP Server...

Call it a couple hundred more on Virtue, Infinity and that's the bulk of your
*actual* player base.

Yes, a lot of people have left due to PvP - especially 2.0 and the events
surrounding Lighthouse's departure.

That said, Far More left after ED than even existed in the PvP community
during its heyday.

I'll wager that more people move to a different game, simply for a change in
pace, or because it's "teh new shiny" each quarter than the sum total of the
existing PvP community.

...and through it all, the game has remained relatively population stable at around
100K subscribers... For *seven* years.

To say that the Doom Claims are grossly overstated is roughly equivalent to
calling a light drizzle the next Great Flood...


Regards,
4

Simply put, there are a number of things that you are either blatantly ignoring,
or simply do not comprehend.

Yes, the item was already there, for sale ... for a moment. It was purchased.

Somebody got it before you did. They put their bid in earlier than you, or bid
more than you were willing to, but in any case, it was offered and sold.

For all you know, that particular item was actually used in a toon by the purchaser.
Maybe it was re-listed - there's simply no way to know with any specific item.

The key point you're missing is this:

Undervalued, high demand items will sell out quickly, and produce a supply shortage.

Think of iPods/iPads, Beanie Babies, Transformers, Super Bowl tickets or any
number High Demand items that were simply unavailable because the price
was low enough (or the supply was restrictive enough) that more people
bought them faster than other people were able to produce them.

So, in those cases, what usually happens? You get a finite number that sell out
instantly, and you get a few on EBay for crazy prices.

There is a name for this: Volatility... Which, in practical terms, means extreme
price swings, and extreme levels of availability or shortage.

The "service" that flippers provide is to reduce Volatility.

To be sure, he is compensated for his savvy and patience, but those are
actual skills, just as the doctor or the tax guy, or the electrician get compensated
for their specialized knowledge as well.

In actual fact, flippers narrow the extreme price ranges, by bringing the price back
into the "normal" range where producers are supplying the item at roughly the
rate that people are still willing to buy them, without creating a shortage.

What you "lost out" on was a bargain. Getting it "on the cheap".
Next time, bid earlier...

What the flipper did was make sure you could *still* get one, if you really needed
to have it (and by "need", we mean "pony up and pay the normal price these
usually sell at").

It has absolutely nothing to do with morality - believe it or don't.


Regards,
4

So, let me see if I understand this.

Your position is: If the devs don't fix pvp - a community currrently comprised
of a few hundred regulars (generously speaking - I pvp on Freedom), it will ruin
or kill the entire game for the 99,000+ people that don't care a whit about pvp.

Is that about it?

Alrighty Then -- Carry On...


Regards,
4


PS> I sure hope those delusions you're apparently suffering from aren't keeping
you up at night...

I have a theory or two that might apply...

First, I'd speculate that most folks will overpay for *any* Common IO's rather
than craft them themselves. Crafting IO's has always been profitable for that
reason. If you're willing to put in that time, you'll get paid pretty well for it.

As for L40's in particular, a few ideas come to mind.

* Perhaps we have an SO player who wants to move-up to IO's. L40's outperform
SO's, and given that it's still quite a while before reaching 50 (I think, at one
time, L34-L36 was the mathematical XP mid-point?), L37 is a pretty good time
to kit out the toon for the last push to L50.

* It's also not a bad time for a player who's going to upgrade even further to sets,
to start planning/saving for those purchases at that point. Higher level toons
make more inf/run than lowbies, and with L40 IOs in place, they can simply
bank that cash.

* Finally, there's a significant price change when it comes to crafting L50's
vs L40's (or L45's which is what I use in cases where a simple Common IO does
the job). In my opinion, the price jump vs the power jump at that point simply
isn't worthwhile - especially if Sets are in the future planning.


Of course, it could be some other reason entirely, but those would be my reasons.


Regards,
4

It is always refreshing to see someone replace ignorance and superstition with
a willingness to learn, and the knowledge gained through simple experience.

Congratulations on your progress. It's good to see.


Regards,
4


PS> Of course, you know you now owe us a proper Marketeer screenshot complete
with monocle and tea...

That's one heck of a question.

Several folks at many different times have been influential to me in this game.
For me, that would be a pretty long (but distinguished ) group of people,
a number of whom have already been specifically mentioned in prior posts.

Far and away the most influential was my RL friend who talked me into the
original Beta in the first place.

We still run toons together a couple times each week, and endlessly disscuss,
argue, and debate various game nuances over lunch most days. It's a given
that I wouldn't be playing were it not for him...

The devs are also key, for providing such a good game in the first place,
but also for the willingness to interact with and take (at least some) advice from
the player community, and gracefully accept some lumps on those (fairly rare)
occasions when they've been wrong (Market merge, for instance).

Finally, a number of folks from these forums have been a huge influence, for
their knowledge, guides, and willingness to discuss virtually every facet of the
game - so much of the stuff I know (and take for granted) about this game
is directly due to those people.


Regards,
4

I wasn't kidding...

4