Failsight

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-Teammates of a lower level being sidekicked up.

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I personally don't see how this applies at all. I had my 46 Fortunata lk'd up and I was kicking rear. Only died when my boss wandered off to help people who apparently can't navigate to save their lives and other such times where all my support disappeared, etc.

I didn't complain though, because it's an early version of a new SF, which means dying or failing means even less than the little it means on live.

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And many of us wish we could grab cars and telephone poles and smack things with them. Too bad the engine can't support it.

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At least you realise that. Unlike someone else who haunts these Tanker forums....

There's less threat at range. The immense survivability of Tankers is mostly wasted doing that. Plus, sets like Invulnerability and Willpower would really need to be gutted and changed. Also, try managing aggro on 15 targets at range.

What you're looking for is an Epic AT that hasn't been made yet. A mix of ranged, melee, and survivability. Looking at all EATs, villain and hero, that's exactly what they are. However, they're locked pretty well into specific looks and stories (to a point).

Yeah, Doms in general need more AoE. Otherwise their new "dual" role as crowd control / damage dealer is still pretty limited to crowd control.

And if there's a group of sets that can be reworked in this entire game, it's Dom's assault sets: there are no equivalents anywhere else in the game. The only issue may be that since they're now in the MA for custom critters, they can't change them drastically.

I honestly never understood what the design theory behind original Doms were. Seems pretty poorly thought out.

"Bottom line" is that if AoE is added to Doms, it should be done right: not just in one rule-breaking power, but convincingly across at least one whole set.

I do agree that AoE is lacking for Doms (and shouldn't, considering their survivability otherwise), but Psi Assault's AoE came out of poor design. It just happened to show exactly what Doms are lacking to be competitive.

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According to what you're saying, then PSW should perform roughly around the same level as Footstomp (it currently beats it by a fair margin when considering its recharge and endurance use, and that the Brute would require 100% Fury where as the Dom can do it any time with the upcoming AT change), assuming Dom and Brute damage levels are supposed to be equal (which is questionable). Considering that Brutes don't always have 100% Fury, then Psi Assault Doms will already have an advantage, since they will now be able to have this damage all the time. Doms should do a bit more damage on top due to not having a defensive or even buff/debuff set to fall back on (IMO), but that still would require PSW to be reduced at least somewhat. Then the rest of the set should get boosted so that psi as a damage type doesn't get inherently weaker numbers anymore, since it's really become "just another damage type" in both PvE and PvP.

Which really doesn't go against anything Castle's said about his Dom changes. By all means, he should also go and do a straight increase to Blaster psi and Defender psi if what you're saying is correct.

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Um.....................

Yeah. Brutes are so underpowered it's silly. Noone bothers playing them, because it's just pointless. Especially those SS/ brutes. Can't find one of those without throwing a rock at least 20 feet.

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Yeah, I think you missed the point. SS Brutes, with Footstomp, are doing fabulously well. PSW is significantly more damaging due to having half the recharge and endurance cost. Doms will now not even need a "conditional" to get that damage, while Brutes still do. That suggests PSW is outperforming Footstomp, and is an aberration. I wouldn't mind it if PSW was at the very top of the "within formula" range, but it's not. It's beyond it. Meanwhile, the rest of the set is lower than it should be.

Now where in all that did I suggest that SS Brutes are underpowered? That no one plays them? I really don't know where you got that from.

According to what you're saying, then PSW should perform roughly around the same level as Footstomp (it currently beats it by a fair margin when considering its recharge and endurance use, and that the Brute would require 100% Fury where as the Dom can do it any time with the upcoming AT change), assuming Dom and Brute damage levels are supposed to be equal (which is questionable). Considering that Brutes don't always have 100% Fury, then Psi Assault Doms will already have an advantage, since they will now be able to have this damage all the time. Doms should do a bit more damage on top due to not having a defensive or even buff/debuff set to fall back on (IMO), but that still would require PSW to be reduced at least somewhat. Then the rest of the set should get boosted so that psi as a damage type doesn't get inherently weaker numbers anymore, since it's really become "just another damage type" in both PvE and PvP.

Which really doesn't go against anything Castle's said about his Dom changes. By all means, he should also go and do a straight increase to Blaster psi and Defender psi if what you're saying is correct.

If they're turning down an SD/SS Tanker for a Scrapper, then they don't have a clue what they're doing. That's it.

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Please don't imply that the majority of this pickyune discussion is me saying that I think all newbie Tankers should be doing this. I didn't say that and have posted a few times to the contrary.

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I haven't been saying that you have, so you don't have to be defensive. You're pointing out one great way of having fun with a Tanker, and I (as I can only speak for myself) am simply deliberating on how it works and why (as well as stating warnings and variables), as well as possible issues.

Except for the part that...it's not as efficient. It's certainly more fun to simply cause chaos and rampage through content while keeping your team alive.

I've also not had to hand pick most of the PuGs which have been able to chew through maps that quickly. A bit of luck and/or organisation goes a long way in that regard.

Anyway, call it what you like, and others will point out the issues, major or minor, such that people who aren't in the know won't go, "hey, I tried that and I get slaughtered! What gives?!" Generally part of the purpose of creating definitions.

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Tanker needed for tanking to fast kill multi-packs of mobs

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And I still find this a contentious point: it is a way, a simple way, and a good way, but "needed?" No, I don't think it is. I think a lot of others would agree.

Aggro management, controls, buffs, debuffs, and of course, damage, are all subsets of team play, along with communication and co-operation. Have enough of the others and you can use minimal amounts of any one of those to get through content. About the only one of those that can't be minimised to chew through naturally or artificially difficult content is damage.

It's good that you seem to be doing a good job tanking, as well as communicating. I'm not trying to take away anything from what you're doing. I'm just saying that there's a line, due to mechanical limitations in the game engine, where tanking peaks and other factors come into play--factors not directly tied to the abilities of the Tanker AT.

High Pain Tolerance is a passive anyway. But always slot self-benefitting procs in passives when possible.

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I'd agree with this but "tanking" shouldn't be a replacement for "teamwork". From what you said above, I'm inferring that you are presenting an "either/or" scenario which I wouldn't agree with. Specifically the part I'm showing is my "tanking" (rather than showing the Blaster's maneauvering). Am I "tanking" each mob simulteneously that we've engaged? No. Am I tanking multiple packs at once which make up a number over the agro cap? Yes.

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I think this is the one part where you're not getting what I'm saying. I'm saying tanking is a part of good teamwork. There's no either/or. If you weren't doing your job, that Blaster wouldn't be doing what he/she's doing. Tanking is a sub-set of team play. Good tanking enhances good team play, and good team play can make good tanking look amazing (as your screenshots show). That is why tanking is a subset of team play. However, the mechanics of tanking (such as the aggro cap) remain unchanged no matter how good a job anyone does when tanking or working within a team. It's just that good enough team play can make such limitations of zero consequence (such as defeating enemies fast enough such that those outside of the aggro cap don't get a chance to attack).

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But this statement always applies, whether you're fighting 5 or 50 mobs. The agro cap just makes it apply more when fighting above it.

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Kind of. Aggro is such a high threshold game that it almost becomes binary with pretty much all Tanker primaries outside of Willpower. It takes immense amounts of damage to pull aggro off of most Tankers. It's extremely rare, for instance, that a Fire/Fire Blaster can pull aggro off an Invul (possible, but under normal circumstances no--the Blaster has to actually try and somehow not end up defeating that enemy in the process), and I've yet to see anyone pull aggro off of a well-built Ice Tanker.

After the aggro cap has been hit, the other mobs are for all intents and purposes completely unaffected by the Tanker's taunt mechanics, which means anything can get their attention and be attack-worthy.

Again, I get the sentiment of what you're saying: tanking is more than just running around collecting people in your auras and Taunt AoE--it's about actively mitigating damage for your team with all the tools at your disposal. It's just that the aggro mechanics in this game are pretty cut and dry with no way around them other than players throughout the team being sharp and spreading excess aggro amongst them--or simply doing the rest of the job and mitigating whatever the Tanker isn't handling.

EDIT: Ultimately, what I'm saying, is that a good Tanker will be able to hit a certain peak, but be unable to surpass it. A good team, however, can take what's left and do such a good job themselves that it extends a Tanker's good play to be (or at least look) even better than what a Tanker can do themselves.

I can see what Kruunch is trying to say: tanking is more than just holding the attention of 17 targets, but more minimising the danger to the entire team.

On the other hand, I personally would call what he's demonstrating as "tanking" so much as "good team play including his tanking." It's taking a lot more than his prowess to make what he's showing work, which is fine, but his tanking is only a subset of that, and saying otherwise is conflating a subset for its superset.

As for affecting more than 17 enemies, technically you're still only handling 17 or less at a time. If the Blaster with you was a bit less cautious, you'd see everything beyond your current 17 peel off like cheap wallpaper. So again, this seems more about good team play than about tanking.

Is there even a listing in Combat Attributes for endurance drain resistance? I don't think there is. You just have to experiment, I think. But from the few times I've been hit by Sappers on my Inv/SS, it wasn't as bad as it used to be. Wasn't checking numbers, though.

Currently, it's my SD/SS. Survivability? Check. Aggro management? Just fine. Defeating more enemies than the Scrappers? Oh, so delicious!

That, and the only effects I've got on is a shield and Rage...though Rage pretty much makes up for just about any other effects....

Inv/SS is the prototypical Tanker. And one of the most well-rounded. No, the most well-rounded. Just plain solid all-around.

As much as that'd be great to see, there's no way I'd expect to see systems like that in a 5 year old MMO engine. And considering how damage oriented the new hero-based MMOs are, apparently they still think the same.

Single-player games, most definitely should allow stuff like this.

Without the Shield, I think they'd be obliged to put effects on everything again.

I like the fact that Shields has practically no auras visible.

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If you're out-damaging half the scrappers you meet, you're likely..

* Not meeting a lot of scrappers.
* IO'd out.
* Just playing with bad scrappers.

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It is indeed a combination of what a few other posters have said in response:

Talen_Lee:
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There's one area where a good player using a tank can outstrip a scrapper for damage - in using the superior survivability of the tanker to leverage better AoEs in missions.

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Battlekin:
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If you want a Tank with more damage, go roll one with Shield Defense.

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Dersk:
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The average scrapper being played isn't the kind that solos arch villains. The most min/max'd tanker absolutely outperforms average scrappers in every way. The reverse is also true, though.

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My SD/SS in particular is what I'm talking about, but my Inv/SS has also been known to wipe out enemy spawns faster than quite a number of Scrappers (neither of my Tankers use purple sets or damage procs, btw). Obviously, where the average Scrapper will outperform my Tankers is when taking on single hard targets, like many Bosses, and EBs and above. However, due to better AoE (and I pretty much always build for AoE on Tankers), I'm not being erroneous, nor am I exaggerating when I say that I am indeed out-damaging half the Scrappers I meet--which I really thought wouldn't surprise anyone, since it means the other half is out-damaging me.

And I really thought I said so in my original post.

In any case, I was making a semantic argument to answer what I think is a semantic argument for J_B: "overspecialisation" really doesn't exist in this game unless you build for it (i.e. the day Repeat Offenders becomes about sitting back, buffing teammates, and not attacking is the day I get worried). It's just as easy to build the other way while still utilising the aggro management function of Tankers. Thus, "not a Tanker problem."

And on a final, side-note, even though I love my Scrappers, I think they're highly overrated. As has been said already by Dersk, only particularly well-built Scrappers are going to be soloing AVs. Most Scrappers in the population (of the game, not the boards) will have their rears handed to them by that AV in much less than a minute.

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Well, as a tanker I'm kinda thinking I should tank all, but not kill all, the killing is best left to blasters and scrappers. I just kinda feel like I'm not able to tank all, since I'm so vulnerable to anything that isn't smash/lethal. The tank all/kill all/can-do-everything-themselves tend to be Scrappers (no offense to the good scrappers out there, I've just met many scrappers who think they can do everything by themselves, having slightly less protection than tanker, but far superior damage)

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No offence, but I think that's the source of your problems: a very misguided (but common) sense of what Tankers are all about. The highly skilled Tankers here, at this stage of the game tend not to be about "tank all/defeat none" but "tank many/defeat many."

Attacking is such a vital of the entire game, such that no AT is left without a way to do some considerable damage to enemies (even Defenders). To think Tankers are some kind of exception weakens your ability as a Tanker a great deal.

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Never seen that site before. I just went by the descriptions of powers, figuring that if invulnerability said it was the most resistant, it was that. So imagine my surprise when I find myself stuck as very vulnerable and not at all invulnerable. I had to take tough to reach something near invulnerable and that was only to lethal and smashing.

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A lot of people here will be pretty hard on you, simply because they're jaded veterans (well, I am too, I guess), and know the ins and outs of each set. They know how to prioritise targets and use the primary and secondary effects of all their powers to their best advantage.

I honestly find that there's nothing wrong with the Invulnerability set, other than its slightly unfortunate name (people see it, go "Wow, I'll be invulnerable" and then are surprised when they can be taken down just like anyone else).

My tips for any Tanker, really, are as follows:

1) Offence is the best defence: knocking enemies on their butts, stunning them, debuffing them, etc. all contribute greatly to your survival. Some of your best tools are in your secondary.

2) Defence -> Resistance -> HP -> Heal -> Regen is the general chain of priority (arguable, as it really does depend on the set, but for Invul, this very much fits). Invul has the first 4 (WP has all but #4, a Granite Stone has an abundance of all, but that affects tip #1 since attacks recharge slower and do less damage), and knowing how each works in conjunction with each other and what you need to do to maximise it is very important.

3) Know your situation: situational awareness for Tankers is as important as it is for Defenders and Controllers. Acting like a stereotypical comic book brick isn't good for team Tanking at all. It's really important to know what your team can provide for you and just how much trouble they've gotten themselves into (because, compared to a Tanker, everyone gets into more trouble than they should--that's why you're there).

4) Tankers set the pace: you're the one that controls the pace of a mission. Driving in first, mitigating the biggest threats, and controlling the aggro of enemies allows your team to do whatever they need to do.

5) Pace-setters are not de facto leaders: just because you set the pace doesn't mean you get to boss everyone around. Work with the team, as part of the team, and everyone will have more fun and be more effective.

Tips for Invulnerability in particular:

1) Dull Pain is your friend: having DP up and available is a double boost: it heals you up greatly, allowing your green bar to go from almost empty to near full in a very short time, and the HP boost is humongous: enough to cap most builds upon application.

2) Remember tip# 2? Why is defence first and not resistance? Because the attack that doesn't hit you is the attack where resistance isn't necessary. This is why building for defence, not resistance, is the best way to go. Combat Jumping is a very cheap way to boost defence significantly.

3) Strangely, the second best way to go is #5 on the chain: Regen. Why? Because it's the only part that Invulnerability doesn't really cover on its own.

4) Timing is everything: knowing when to use Dull Pain and Unstoppable, as well as when they stop, is so very important. Hasten is huge in helping get both back up much quicker, and only takes one power pick.

Hope these help!

Working up my MA/WP with casual play these days. She's hit lvl 30. And I have to say, I really love MA on female characters, just seems to fit so very well. Thinner, nimble male characters work, too. It just looks odd for some of the heavier looking characters.

My eventual build is going to use relatively cheap (Smashing Haymaker and Multi-Strike) IO sets to aim at def in the mid-20s. Toss on the solid resists and excellent regen and she'll be good to go. Cobra Strike and Eagle's Claw, both 100% chance stuns, can combine to stun everything up to a PtoD EB, and it shouldn't be too hard to get the recharge down enough, especially on Dragon's Tail, to keep many enemies on their butts.

MA is a very mixed bag, and like Claws, I think it takes a bit of time to truly master it. However, it gets 3 solid ST attacks spread across the levels, is now quite fast activating, which combined with no redraw issues at all, makes for some very fluid combat. Great set, just not the best set.

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Better starting tanks are granite and willpower, both of which do not require massive cash outlays to be strong at high level. If I could make a recommendation, it would be to shelve your invuln tank and build a willpower tank. Once you have accumulated those hundreds of millions, revive and complete your invuln tanker.

It's not you, it's the chopped up way the invuln powerset is designed. It's been thru more design permutations than most sets have, and right now it's more a collection of band-aid fixes than a real powerset, as you will discover if you go with the very nicely put together willpower set.

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I do have a willpower tank around level 30 and I think it can take more of a beating than my invul. For some reason I just have trouble holding aggro on it, something which I do fine on invulnerability and why I've focused more on Invulnerable.

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Blatant troll post is blatant.

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Or simply doesn't know how to read City of Data.

QR

The day I'm not out-damaging half the Scrappers I meet while managing aggro for a team the entire time is the day Tankers are overspecialised.

Scrappers in all but a few build combinations are single target specialists and can't really pull off much more than that, beyond taking the odd alpha strike. Meanwhile, Tankers often end up far more balanced between single target and AoE while being able to take alphas and manage the aftermath. In that way, shouldn't we say that Scrappers are far more specialised than Tankers?

The beautiful thing is that Scrappers are, as they should be. It's the required essence of Scrapperlock.

Brutes fall somewhere in-between. They only reach Scrapper-like damage levels when the priority is on them on a team (either they are being buffed or are taking enough and landing enough attacks to keep Fury up high). The more balanced a team, the less a Brute contributes.

So no, overspecialisation isn't a Tanker's "problem," it's simply that J_B hates managing aggro, yet likes the name of the AT.