Estarriol_EU

Another vote for Crush being a good attack power here - although the majority of players seem to think very little of the single target immobilises, they're almost without exception excellent attack powers. The amount of DoT you can throw out with Crush is just frightening, it's an extremely efficient damage power. My level 50 tanker even has it from an epic pool as part of his chain.

Even the non-damaging immobilises tend to be very good, web grenade for example has -Fly and -Jump and a big fat slow on it.

I'd take tough before instant healing. I too find that I rarely need to use IH. Alpha strikes are what kills me 8 times out of 10, and for that you want Tough. Even the small resistance on Resilience has noticeably reduced the danger to me from Alphas.

Tempting, and if I come, there will be 2 of us. Not sure I can persuade the other half to do Posi again though, she's sick of it.

My experience has been like most everyone else's (use meless attacks) except...

I use Radiant Strike before Incandescent. This is mainly for the knockback, which seems to go off 60-80% of the time, but also because it's very quick and makes a better attack chain (and even if it does KB, if you queue the IS before the Radiant hits, the IS will still go off even though the enemy is now 20 feet away).

Usually it's something like this:-

Radiant Strike, Power Dunk (Incandescent Strike), Ranged Attack, Ranged Attack, Radiant Strike.

That takes down just about any Void in normal circumstances.

Power Dunk for the win!

[ QUOTE ]

Since the latest defence changes I'm somewhat sceptical about boosting defence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity - why?

[ QUOTE ]
All this talk of slotting auras for taunt.. does anybody know what the effects are anyway? What's the ratio of taunted time vs. untaunted time by default?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without specific testing, it seems to me that the taunt lasts about as long as it takes to reach the next pulse against even con enemies, although noticeably less against higher cons. So it's pretty good unslotted, but not necessarily against +N enemies.

The difficulty in perception on this one is that I'm very rarely sitting there just using Blazing Aura to taunt, usually I chain attacks including Combustion which has a much longer Taunt duration.

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming Burning Aura and autohit here, can 100% taunt time be achieved via any slotting?

[/ QUOTE ]

I slot 2 Acc, 1 Taunt and achieve excellent taunt coverage with just the Aura and melee attacks. I use Taunt and ancillary pool ranged attacks to cover those not in melee.

Were I not planning to be active with melee attacks, I'd slot 3 Taunt in the Aura for certain, and expect very good results. With 2 Acc, 3 Taunt it's more likely to be positional issues and multiple target limits that are the cap on your ability to manage melee aggro.

Although 1 Acc will cap your accuracy against basic even cons, it's worth slotting 2 Acc for higher level enemies, and where they have defense bonuses, which can often be quite large (e.g. Rikti Guardian force fields).

[ QUOTE ]

While I'm thinking about it... does Ice Patch aggro?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't appear to, although obviously it's an excellent crowd control tool in its own right.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After testing this with a friend I am fairly confident that it is correct that the taunt component of a damaging aura can miss along with the damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't miss, per se, but it does have a limit on the number of targets it can hit. Might be 5 per taunt tick, like the standard taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would help for you to understand what Thunderforce is talking about here if you read back a few pages. Blazing Aura and Icicles (the two damage-only auras) definitely miss, and our testing shows that when they miss, they don't taunt.

Auras can hit more than 5 people. It's probably 10, but I've not specifically tested it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All my testing and experience so far suggests so.

[/ QUOTE ]

What _is_ your testing, so far?

[/ QUOTE ]

Walk into group of mobs (-2s or so). Hit them all with single pulse of aura. Immediately have blaster hit them with a fireball. See who they attack. Wait 5 seconds. See who they attack.

A few repetitions of that made it pretty clear how the system worked.

That and genuinely playing a Fire Tanker to 50 over 14 months or so, mostly in genuine team scenarios. I abhor powerleveling.

I've played an Ice Tanker, my gf has an Ice Tanker, and I've played a Stone Tanker too. From all this experience, I am much more impressed with Mud Pots and especially Chilling Embrace as a taunt aura, than Blazing Aura. A Fire Tanker has to pause to make sure ticks hit bad guys as he moves near them to grab aggro - an Ice Tanker certainly doesn't (very fast ticks, at the very least).

[ QUOTE ]

Easier than that. Group of greys in Atlas. Pulse the Blazing Aura once. Everyone hit by the damage component falls over. Your friend immediately does select-nearest-target and boinks them with Power Thrust or Force Bolt or some other minimal-damage attack (or the friend is much lower level). See if they go after the friend or not. Should work, no? Even without Taunt enhancers in the Aura, the duration will still be respectable on a -lots minion...

[/ QUOTE ]

That would also work. Let me know how it goes?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was making the point that damaging auras definitely aren't better in holding aggro in a team situation, since they miss in ways that non-damaging auras do not,

[/ QUOTE ]

Up until here you haven't said anything too contentious, but is this, specifically, true?


[/ QUOTE ]

All my testing and experience so far suggests so. I'm perfectly happy to have it proved otherwise, but I've not seen that to be the case. If it is, we should make it known (and I might change my slotting on Blazing Aura).

The difficulty in testing is that you want a situation where a significant number of enemies are present in melee range, but have a low chance of being hit, and yet aren't significantly higher level than the tanker involved such that the taunt duration remains reasonable. 3 slots of taunt in the auras would help with this.

Oh, and a teammate with Aim to shoot the target.

[ QUOTE ]

The mechanics of multiple taunts from different characters are a little more complex, and I only have a basic grasp of them. The essence of it is that if character 'A' taunts an opponent, then character 'B' taunts the same target, B will not get the aggro until the remaining duration of B's taunt is twice the remaining duration of A's taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, that's very useful information, and might explain why Dwarf Antagonise may be so weak compared to Tanker Taunts (as it should be IMO).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Damaging taunt auras inflict damage which causes a mob to continue to have aggro on you after the actual taunt component has expired - if and only if you have inflicted the most damage to that mob. Since none of the damaging auras do much damage, this is rather unlikely in a teaming scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I don't buy that. Unless it has been changed since i6.
the reason I say this is because me and my fire-tank friend did a little experiment;
Could I pull agro with my katana/regen away from the tank if she had her fiery aura on. The answer was a resounding no.
I would strike. the mob would turn to me.
The aura would puff and the mob would, before hitting me, turn back to the tank. I find both fiery aura and mudputs to be extremely effective. Can't comment on the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read what I wrote again. This part edited to stress the part you're missing:-

[ QUOTE ]

Damaging taunt auras inflict damage which causes a mob to continue to have aggro on you after the actual taunt component has expired - if and only if you have inflicted the most damage to that mob.


[/ QUOTE ]

Blazing Aura ("Fiery Aura" is the name of the powerset, not that power) pulses with fire roughly every second. That pulse - if it hits - inflicts small damage plus a short-duration taunt effect. In your experiment above, it was the new pulse of taunt that pulled the aggro back onto your friend, not the damage.

Aggro and taunt work like this:-

If two blasters both hit a target, the target will aggro onto the one who has done it the most damage overall (effects such as slows and immobilises also cause aggro, but we'll leave that aside for now).

Say a Fire Tank's Blazing Aura inflicts 10 Fire Damage, and a Katana Scrapper's Gambler's Cut inflicts 50. A single hit from both - or even two hits from the Aura - is not enough to hold aggro based on damage alone. The aggro should go to the Scrapper, but it doesn't because the Blazing Aura isn't just damage, it also has a secondary Taunt component.

Taunt is an "effect", like a slow or an immobilise or a disorient, that can either be the primary effect of a power (e.g. the power Taunt itself) or a secondary effect (such as on Blazing Aura). Whichever it is, it has a duration (which is effected by level modifiers and resistances like other effects are, although very little resists Taunt). For that duration, it will put the Taunter to the top of the target's aggro list.

Importantly - after the Taunt expires, all the additional aggro it generated vanishes completely. I was making the point that damaging auras definitely aren't better in holding aggro in a team situation, since they miss in ways that non-damaging auras do not, and the damage they do is not usually significant enough on it's own to hold aggro in a team.

It's really quite a straightforward effect, but a lot of players seem to misunderstand how Taunt works.

[Just to confuse matters, there does seem to be "strengths" of the Taunt effect, although seemingly not related to "magnitude" as such, but any level of the Taunt effect seems to override any amount of damage when it comes to grabbing aggro. I've noticed that Dwarf Antagonise is not strong enough to override any Tanker taunting effect, but a Tanker taunt will override a Tanker Gauntlet effect.]

[ QUOTE ]

I've never been on a team where I didn't feel my Tankers have made a useful contribution. No matter how many heals, buffs, debuffs and control effects you have available, a Tanker is always handy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The corollary to this is that, when playing anything bar a tanker on a team, I've always felt much safer with a tanker around (a proper tanker, that is). Controllers and Defenders just don't give that same Warm Fuzzy Feeling.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
non-damaging component (I'm thinking Mud Pots here) are autohit, and thus more reliable for holding aggro than the damage auras that need to roll to-hit in order to taunt.

The best aggro-holding aura in the game is Chilling Embrace without question, with Mud Pots and Invincibility after that. Blazing Aura would be 4th on the list (as the largest damage aura).

[/ QUOTE ]

mudpots does damage. I'm sure. I see damage ticks in my mudpots.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you read my message more carefully you'll note that I stated that Mud Pots has a Non-damaging *component* - which is a slow. At no point did I state that Mud Pots does no damage. Rather, it has a to-hit damaging component and (importantly) a seemingly auto-hit slow/taunt component. I have limited experience with Stone/ but Mud Pots certainly seems to work the way I've described and holds aggro very well over it's limited radius.

[ QUOTE ]
The one without any damage component is invincible

[/ QUOTE ]

Chilling Embrace inflicts no damage either.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe invincible to have faster ticks of taunt because anything within my invincible aura doesnt turn its back for a split anything whereas all other tanker auras can turn just before the next damage tick with taunt unslotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may well be a result of the relative level of enemies you were fighting - higher level enemies are taunted for less time on each "tick". Certainly, I have never noticed Chilling Embrace to be less effective than Invincibility in holding aggro - rather, as you note, the slow component seems to make it more effective if anything.

This is all a little offtopic now, though - the debate seems to be centered on whether Taunt is necessary to be a good tanker.

I respecced John Wednesday a few days ago, he's now Fire/Fire/Ice (with no regrets - Ice Storm is very good to get breathing space to fire Aid Self and the slows are useful).

[ QUOTE ]

I think that if you are tanker and you do not have Taunt you are not doing your work properly. Yes you can still be some use for the team, but not as usefull as you could be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, with the note that I don't really expect Tanks to have Taunt until 16 or so.... based on reduced defenses and a more pressing need to get enough melee attacks to use Gauntlet effectively. At low levels I'm perfectly happy for a Tank to be holding say 50% of the aggro... once you hit mid-levels I'd like to see a tank holding "as much as possible" (80-100%).

Tanks are never going to be able to hold 100% of the aggro 100% of the time, nor are they designed to. But a 20+ tank without Taunt... no, not a very useful tank on a large team IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fire/fire is only build realy that can get away with no taunt.
with taunt in fire arura.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any primary has a taunt aura, it's not only Fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

My perception (having played both kinds) is that the damaging taunt auras are more effective because, well, mobs don't like taking damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damaging taunt auras inflict damage which causes a mob to continue to have aggro on you after the actual taunt component has expired - if and only if you have inflicted the most damage to that mob. Since none of the damaging auras do much damage, this is rather unlikely in a teaming scenario.

Non-damaging taunt auras, or taunt auras with a non-damaging component (I'm thinking Mud Pots here) are autohit, and thus more reliable for holding aggro than the damage auras that need to roll to-hit in order to taunt.

The best aggro-holding aura in the game is Chilling Embrace without question, with Mud Pots and Invincibility after that. Blazing Aura would be 4th on the list (as the largest damage aura).

As the owner of a 50th level Fire/Fire, I totally disagree that a Fire/Fire tank doesn't need Taunt to hold aggro. It's true that the melee attacks (particularly the awesome Combustion) are generally more effective at melee range due to target limits on Taunt, but nothing beats the autohit/long duration/range combination of Taunt for anything other than pure melee/low enemy defense scenarios.

[ QUOTE ]
i feel sorry for deffenders i mean pbs are scrappery and blastery and ws are controlery and tankeryish but what abour deffenders???

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to feel sorry for Defenders. Many defender builds are almost obscenely powerful. They took a backseat to Controllers due to the awesomeness of post-32 multiple controller pets... but now Defenders just rock, even solo.

Except perhaps the Empaths. They get a raw deal when soloing compared to just about any other form of Defender. Empaths definitely need a team.

I've always slotted mine 3 Def, 3 Recharge and been extremely happy with it. Probably the best power in the set IMO.

I've never seen the need to increase the ToHit buff, it's pretty large anyway and players can always slot their attacks for more accuracy, but nobody can really cap their defense.

For those who have not used Global Channels before - I tried to find a quick guide but failed miserably.

Basically these channels are extra player-created chat channels that can be seen, and usually spoken to, by any player who is a member.

You are a member as a player, not a character, and thus can see the channel no matter which character you are logged in as.

However, you *do* need to enable viewing the channel on each of your characters - for some reason, it looks like it does this automatically on some characters and not on others.

To enable viewing it, in say the bottom chat window, right-click on the the tab itself (by default, called "chat") and select "Edit Tab". Then add the Defiant Events channel to the list on the left, and hit OK. The chat on the channel will then appear in your bottom chat window (in this example).

To speak to the channel, select it from the dropdown that appears when you click on your current speaking channel in the very bottom left. You can also use /send <channel> <message> if you really want to.

There are many ways to subscribe to the channel, /chan_join as already discussed, being invited by an operator (e.g. send me a /tell), or through the "Edit Tab" window where there is a "join channel" option.

You can see who is currently online in the channel by selecting it in the dropdown that appears in the top of the Friends window.

Any questions, let me know or post them here.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I know its petty and pedantic but it's a pet hate (like people saying respect instead of respec)

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaargh!!!

Not to mention "enchantment" instead of "enhancement", or even worse "enchancement", which I've seen far too much recently.

"Skill" instead of "Power" is a minor annoyance compared to those...

Oh, I'd be up for the sewer trial with my Grav Troller. Done it many times - but not since the force field fix has been put in...

[ QUOTE ]
That would be /chanjoin "Defiant Events" then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's /chan_join "Defiant Events"

Thanks for reminding me. I appreciate few players are familiar with the custom channels functionality yet.

I've created a global chat channel for the organisation of Task Forces, Trials, Raids etc. Global channels can have a *lot* of members, so this should be very useful - it certainly was on the US servers when I was a member of similar channels there.

If you'd like to join, send a join request to me (@Estarriol) or attempt to join channel "Defiant Events".

Hope to see you there soon.

You're welcome. Sadly I blinked at one point and missed a lot of it... blimey that was a fast TF!

Hmm, a fairly even spread there... we'll have to see how it goes. I'll PM people on this list if I can find them. Feel free to send PMs to @estarriol if you want to let me know you're on/going to be on (remember, messages to players hang around for them even if they're not online)

If I were to be organising a TF this Sunday (to start at noon), for which of the following would there be the most demand?:-

1) Synapse, 15-20
2) Sister Psyche, 20-25
3) Bastion, 25-30
4) Moonfire, 23-28
5) Hess, 25-30

Bonus points if you can confirm availability or list the AT/level you'd be playing.