Deus_Otiosus

Most likely SS/FA will remain a great Brute pairing.

But that's one combo, and that's also before we actually see what a double stacked rage fueled, FE charged foot stomp or KO Blow critical might look like.

When you say wins do you mean ST DPS? I didn't realize that, and would be slightly encouraging for my Claws/Invuln who I've been considering deleting.

DB/EA also seems like a nice combo once EA gets upgraded and proliferated to Scrappers.

Your numbers haven't taken into consideration the new Energy Drain.

If it's anything like Energy Absorption from Ice Armor, it will be perma on just SOs.

I'm not sure that means you can softcap on just SOs, but I think all things considered that a lot of the +DEF from overload is mostly wasted.

I'd like it even better if it were given the SoW/OWTS treatment.

Its very rare for a Brute to be at their HP cap.

Only Invuln and Stone can really get there, and those require specific builds with the intent to cap HP. Otherwise they will generally fall around the 3K mark, just 200 shy of cap.

So use it on Brutes, and be worry free that you've wasted it.

Because there would be no reason to ever play a Brute once that happens.


I kid, I kid...maybe.

Until I see some solid Brute times on the Pylon thread, KM is basically a set I will never play on a Brute.

Not when sets like FM & DM are available. Or honestly, SS, or WM or even SM.

I can't justify the level of ST output (which I don't think is all that great, I'd love to be proven wrong) at the sacrifice of AoE damage.

DM already does that, and it does it with a Self Heal and an Endurance Recovery Tool.

FM does ST extremely well, doesn't require a ton of rech to get a solid Attack chain and has a better AoE.


-Damage is a nice debuff, but its kind of pointless at the endgame against Single Targets on an AT designed to eat aggro for groups.

As a Brute the only single targets you will really need to debuff with -Damage (AVs) have heavy resistance vs. the tiny amounts of -Damage you can apply as a melee character.

It does, but the Cims do so much DPS in comparison that I think you need to be facing a GM for the Cataphract to be a better choice.


I'm not sure, I don't believe it does.

I'm in a similar boat, I just got finished grabbing a bunch of T3 Incarnate powers for my WM/SD.



With the proliferation of WM to Scrappers, I can't think of any really compelling reasons to keep the Brute since the Scrapper version will completely outclass it in all but HP.

Guess its time to re-roll.

Correct, I kept the power analyzer open during all of the tests to watch for debuffing and to take screen shots at each of the 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute and 4 minute marks.

Unfortunately it would require more testing.

I have one clean screen shot where the Pylon has -1500 Regen applied to it and the regeneration rate has been dropped to 35 HP/S.

So it does seem to have some level of resistance. If I get a chance this week, I'll run another test.



Back to how I ran these (And credit goes to Werner for explaining to me how to calculate this).

This is all based on the Longbow pets

The Pylon has 30677.15 HP

At the 240s (4 minute) mark, the pylon had 19,849.76/30677.15 HP remaining.

So the Longbow Pets did

30,677.15 - 19,849.76 = 10,827.39 Raw Damage Dealt in 240s


Now to call on some assistance...

10,827.39 Actual Damage * 1.25 = 13,534.2375 Actual Damage



13,534.2375 / 240s = 56.39265625 DPS

56.39265625 + 127.8125 (Pylon's regen) = 184.20515625

However, as you've mentioned this isn't completely accurate because the Pylon is not regenerating 127.8125.

I would say -1500 regen is a pretty good average of what I saw during the test, which allows the pylon about 35 HP/S.

Which works out to a rough 91 DPS, which would still be on the extremely low end of the scale.

Unfortunately, it would seem the case (Pylon has 127 HP/S Regen).

It seemed quite low to me as well, but it may be considered a balance point for being capable of completely flooring (and I mean COMPLETELY) a target's regeneration for what was basically the entire duration of the pet's summon.

When I get home later today, I can post the full details for the Longbow pets.

Because ST DPS is a measurable and an easily applied mechanic, you can see how if you click anywhere in this entire sentence the results of utilizing the ST capabilities of pets in action.



1) For some reason, very few leagues on Freedom use adds teams anymore (I'm not saying I agree, just the facts).

2) Why didn't "you" (general you, not you with whatever very specific case you might reply with) have your pets out during the escapee phase? 16 Man BAFs are very common on my server, maybe not yours. The pets are generally more valuable during the escapee phase then the AV fights. EDIT Although Cims, Warworks and Phantoms probably put out more DPS than the vast majority of people's characters. So I could see a case argued where they might be useful against the AVs.

3) Please show me pics/video of your pets repeatedly and consistently maximizing their cones.




All of this fun aside, I've never said the other pets had no value.

My goal, from the start, has been to add to the thread with actual numbers through testing - and I have specifically debunked the idea that Cimerorans do 500 DPS (which would be insane).


I'll have some more pets, their DPS and other comments "soon".

Holding Limbo?

Mace is one of the worse offenders for poor fury generation.

75% is generally a decent number though.


I took a WM/SD Brute onto test at one point and gave it a full top end build, with Reactive T4 & Cardiac Core Paragon and managed to get 240 DPS against a pylon.

That's not setting any records, but it's not terrible either considering the overall AoE capabilities and soft controls you get.

You didn't specify non-melee cones.

You're also a player, I don't doubt you can hit a large number of foes with Static Discharge.

Now watch the Warworks ACU and let me know how many enemies that pet hits with wide, ranged, cone attack (not many).

Pet AI is unfortunately not able to make very good use of cones/AoEs, especially on teams where you as the pet owner have less control of mob positioning.


Yes.



Since you didn't like my out of their air numbers, I'll just say I think it will be exceedingly rare for a pet to hit 6-16 foes with a cone on a trial.



No, it isn't.

Because those other ATs have other things to be doing than manipulating their pets just perfect to line up a pet cone that they are not even sure when they pet will be using it.

If you will put up a gameplay screenshot, or video, of your Lore pets hitting the maximum number of targets with their cone on a trial at least three times I will happily admit I am wrong though.



Irrelevant in a DPS discussion.

278 is the Cimeroran DPS under the best optimal conditions with no outside buffs/debuffs.

DPS is only really relevant against harder targets like EBs & AVs as other targets will be dead long before any DPS conversation really matters.


I've also never said their wasn't wasted spillover damage, so I don't see the purpose of the point you are making.

Against an AV, the spillover will be a non-issue.




I've been on enough BAFs to know that those 9CUs and Victorias are not often bunched up nicely for a pet to perfectly line up a cone and that the pet AI has no idea how to recognize that situation when it presents itself.

I'm not saying that the AoE attacks don't get used, I'm saying they don't get maximized most of the time.

That's the part I'm disagreeing with, the part in red.

The problem with what you are saying is that even players have a hard time making things like melee cones work on fast paced leagues/teams.

On top of this, Pets just use their AoEs whether it makes sense or not to.

Players know when to maximize their AoE attacks, but to a pet its just an attack and they use it when its ready.


So I agree that the reason the pets with AoEs are showing less DPS in the OP is because they have AoEs which do less per ST vs. an actual ST attack - but at the same time, your pets will not always maximize or even hit half the possible targets all of the time.

I think you'd be lucky for a pet to hit 75% of the max targets with a melee cone 1/3rd of the time.

He forsake it for his SS/FA/Soul Brute.

I don't particularly have much trouble generating fury on my DM/DA in particular, but I don't bother with the mez toggles (I only used them levelling, not for the L50 build) and just use Darkest Night instead.

Please post it if you don't mind, the lack of real in game info on Lore pets is pretty frustrating - we could use all the data we have.


In beta I tested T4 Core: Cims vs. Arachnos vs. Warworks on my Fire/Rad corr, and all of their times were withing a few seconds of each other.

This was after the Cims & Arachnos had their damage reduced.

So I'm not sure I believe cims will always or actually do put out 255 DPS, but I don't have very much to go off of and could be wrong.