Deus_Otiosus
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Hah, no I was being serious.Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
I don't get it... is this sarcasim?
I think assault, for its endurance cost, is really a waste at that point - especially if you have to sacrifice taking one of the better (IMO) Destiny powers to keep it running.
Although as I said if it were me, making a team focused build I would go Cardiac, Assault and Rebirth.
Assault is great stuff for teams. -
Quote:Regardless of whether or not you want a Street Justice Scrapper (and since they are selling this to us for $$ over our subs, I have a feeling we all will want to) I highly recommend you do in fact make a WM/SD.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I wish they would just out and tell us the specs of these sets already, arg.
I was already contemplating a WM/SD scrapper. But now I have to think about Street Justice too. And I have a bunch of toons to remake if it ends up being a good set. Basically right now my rotation of FM/Inv Brute, DM/SD scrap, Claws/SR brute, MA/SD scrap is already too much .... -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
I don't know, did you see how horrendous the End usage is on my character. I even took the Physical Perfection PPP, as this is my homage chacter to Captain America. I'll be playing him all day tomorrow after I go see the movie, in honor of opening day. So, his end sucks bad right now...also, SD was and has always been notorious for horrible end just like, albiet not as bad as DA.
SD is not horrible on endurance. It is comparable to Invuln & SR.
If I can make an SS/SD/Soul Brute work with Cardiac, you can make MA work with it as well.
So no body/energy mastery even needed, and I've added Gloom to my attack chain.
While I see nothing wrong with going ageless specifically for musculature, Rebirth & Barrier are simply much, much stronger options in my eyes.Quote:Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
Also, you take Ageless not just for end, but for the +Recharge, +Recovery. That's killing two birds with one stone, instead of having a semi-longer lasting MOG or a longer lasting IH. Which either could fit my character Idea; however, I think Super Soldier and never getting winded fit better together. Especially, allowing me to take Musculature for the added dmg.
Ultimately Destiny is one of the most powerful things you can add to any character, and that's why I almost always choose Rebirth or Barrier, I think they are quite easily the most powerful of the options for melee characters.
Just a note, T4 Cardiac Core Paragon will increase your Resistances.Quote:Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
I could defintely see me building for more recharge, and taking Cardiac Alpha and the Rebirth, but that's sacraficing a lot of other things I build into my build, i.e. Almost Max HP, 34% Resistance on top of 45% defense to all positions
Do you primarily solo or do you team quite a lot?Quote:Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
and Super High Damage. I have so much damage from Reactive, Enhances, Musculature, and AAO, that I didn't even need Assault, b/c It wasn't adding any value to me when I was saturated with AAO. I know you said you were too busy to look at the build, but if you get a chance, blink it over and see where you think you can improve it.
If you solo, then overall I agree.
If you team a lot, assault for your team, which you can run with Cardiac, becomes the much stronger option than whatever bonuses Musculature is doing for you alone.
Now I see that your build already has assault, and I think you're at the point of overkill with AAO, Musculature & Assault. -
Quote:What happens if we throw, say +20% damage bonus in there from sets (for both of them)?Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Well I have Scrappers beating Brutes at 75% Fury running FU-Focus-Slash with the triple stack FU on Focus and double on Slash and FU itself by, ohhhhh say 6%. Counting in Crits at 10% of course.
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Updated the thread in the guides section as well.
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Quote:Originally Posted by fallenz
No Clockworks?
Oops!
T4 Core Superior
Clockwork = 151.47 -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arbegla
It also depends on slotted. While your claw/SR could be slotted for aid self, tough/weave etc, the scrapper could just have the rebirth destiny, pray the passive +regen covers his survival, and throws in assault into his build for extra damage.
When you compare identical builds, brutes are higher by ~10% damage, due to higher DPA numbers on thier attacks. Now, on non identical builds, or even general human error, brutes and scrapper could be on par damage wise.
While that's true for the DPA numbers, it might be possible that the effects of triple stacked FU are having a more pronounced effect on the Scrapper builds.
Alternatively, the Scrapper builds might also have slotted heavily for +Damage bonuses which might also put them ahead.
@Granite Agent, unfortunately its difficult to make an assessment without seeing all the builds that are involved. -
Quote:Those three vectors are all you need.Originally Posted by LSK
The only thing that's at 32.5% is melee def and AoE def, Range is at 33.1% def,
All three of them with +12.5% Def from 1 luck will see the build at 45% (or greater) to all positions.
Which makes the typed defenses irrelevant, you don't need both. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Socorro
Ahh..the softcap... For the record, my SR scrapper has 48%+ Def to all positional (51% when I have vet drone out, until it gets killed in 2 seconds or less), still there are time I just don't believe the softcap is the be-all and end-all it's made out to be.
Take my WP Brute -- I had her up to 46% S/L Def,
We're having a discussion about SR, which is not WP.
It's also not a WP Brute, so it won't have 2500+ HP.
WP also has some 50% SM/L resistance with tough, and a WP Brute will have anywhere from 100-130 HP/S Regen.
We're not dummies, we understand you can get by on Resistance based builds or even DEF based builds without being softcapped - but getting softcapped on SR is not hard, its not expensive, it doesn't cost you anything build wise and is a no brainer.
Quote:Originally Posted by Socorro
Softcap is really good, but some things (like losing AoE potential) aren't quite worth reaching it, IMO.
There is practically nothing to give up for softcap for SR. -
Quote:The only huge investment you will find with SR is if you want purples for rech.Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Hi guys, I'm an old player coming back. I'm trying to make a speedster character.
Is hitting 45% defense really that important for super reflexes? It seems like a huge investment and -
Quote:Oh, hey there. You also forgot about those pesky higher base DEF and RESISTANCE numbers which both work in unison to allow for better protected HP, of which the tanker - as you cleverly noted - has MORE OF to begin with.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Tanker damage caps raised so they deal the same damage at cap as Brutes, minus ~25% to compensate for Bruising and the HP cap difference.
Hope that helps.
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Blaster: The Blaster specializes in taking massive damage at range. They have very little defensive potential, other than the ability to be a vengeance target. A Blaster can solo successfully, if your definition of solo includes having no enemies in the mission, but this archetype really comes into its own in groups, where Defenders, Scrappers, and Tankers can take the brunt of the enemy attacks, freeing the Blaster to use rez inspirations in relative safety.
Controller: The Controller specializes in being Fire/Kinetics. This is perhaps the most challenging archetype to play, except for Peacebringers, Warshades, Masterminds, Stalkers, Blasters, Arachnos Soldiers, and Dominators. Controllers have very little defense against enemies they forgot to mez, aren't being attacked by pets, aren't debuffed to ineffectiveness, and not confused. A Controller who wishes to adventure solo must do so with extreme caution, as petless controllers are laughed at a lot, except for mind controllers.
Defender: The Defender's powers focus on increasing their abilities and decreasing foe abilities, and healing. But they aren't healers, dammit, they aren't. The Defender has little offensive or defensive punch of his own, but can radically increase the effectiveness of even the smallest team - even if that team has only one member. The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though soloing is possible. Difficult, but possible, especially when soloing Giant Monsters or Hamidon. However, the tremendous usefulness of Defenders' powers should guarantee that they will always be able to find a team to adventure with. Just say you have heals, even if its Aid Self.
Scrapper: The Scrapper specializes in hand-to-hand combat and challenge missions. A single Scrapper should be a match for several foes of equivalent level, such as Jack in Irons and the Clockwork King. Scrappers do not deal in ranged damage, except for Claws, Spines, Kinetic Melee, and Electric Melee. Half of all Scrappers do not deal in ranged damage. Their balance of offensive and defensive potential makes Scrappers by far the best suited archetype for solo play. In team ups they still solo. In a league of twenty four, the Scrappers are all still soloing.
Tanker: The Tanker is the "big man" of the hero world, except he isn't always big, isn't always a man, and isn't always in the hero world. He/She/Huge combines too much defense and too little offense. Tankers make effective solo Heroes, at their own deliberate (read: slow) pace, but they are also in demand by teams of players that need to lrn2ply. You know what just play a Brute already.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I know, we'll give tankers brute damage, but in trade we'll have to reduce tanker damage mitigation to brute levels. We'll also reduce tanker health to brute levels.
But that would make brutes a little redundant, so we'll also increase brute health and damage mitigation to distinguish them from tankers. But we'll have to take brute damage away if we do that. I think a reduction to about tanker current levels will be about right.
This is kind of a radical change to the two archetypes, though. So we'll grandfather everyone. Everyone playing a tanker or brute now will keep their current numbers. But anyone making a tanker or a brute after that will get the updated numbers.
That would probably work for me. Although I'm worried the names aren't the most appropriate after the changes. I'll think about a solution to that, but in the interim lets just switch the two names and see about a more permanent fix down the road.
That, was fantastic. -
Quote:Which is to say that we don't really know if KM being better on the scrapper is better than Fire being better for the Brute.Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Which instantly gets countered by /fire being vastly better on brutes.
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Quote:Scrappers might actually be stronger and equally as pretty.Originally Posted by Kioshi
lolscrappers
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Quote:While the current EA doesn't have as much going for it as SD for sure, I think its pretty unfair to compare SD with DM vs. EA and not DM.Originally Posted by Xilibrius
I'm curious to see how everyone feels about the upcoming revamp and proliferation of Energy Aura? My first 50 was and still is a Super Strength Energy Aura brute that as time has gone by especially when i compare him to my Dark Melee Shield brute
I think the proposed changes sound very good, but its basically too early to tell how good the revamp will be. -
Hi mauk.
Here's some other discussion on it, in this thread.
And in particular this post about the Cataphract's DPS. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
All this adds up to more DPS with SR than with SD, if only one target is in range.
Yes, but only if you are using Katana and DB, which says more about Katana and DB than it does about SR.
Unless you can literally show that you can do this across the board with primaries that both SR & SD can use.
You need minimum +20% Damage bonuses from sets before parity with 1 Target in range.Quote:Originally Posted by AuroxisSR has extra recharge, which means either more DPS with Dual Blades or room for a bit more damage bonuses from IO sets.
On top of this, there are plenty of sets that are useful for SD that grant +Dam bonuses: Makos, GSFC, Red Fortune, Performance Shifter, Obliteration, Touch of Death.
I agree with you on the recharge front, SR has SD beat there by a mile.
On the other hand, SD has SR beat by a mile in AoE.
It has SC for one, and for another SR will not have parity with AAO in an AoE situation, which by definition means you have target saturation. -
Quote:Because he doesn't actually want to give up the mitigation advantage that Tankers have, he likes to say that its irrelevant to make his whole argument sound better.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Johnny, why do you have to play a tanker specifically? Why are brutes not sufficient if your ideal tanker mechanic is the exact mechanic that brutes have right now?
His ultimate goal, is to basically have a higher Damage cap as well as a Fury like mechanic on Tankers while keeping their current mitigation numbers.
If he ever gets his wish, well, then we can all reroll our Scrappers and Brutes as Tankers and call it a day. -
Quote:You can't stop of your own volition.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Brutes shouldn't exist.
And until the devs make suitable reparations for throwing Tankers under the bus, I'm not going to stop of my own volition.
I have a feeling this is pathological for you.
I already told you last week, in that other thread.
I don't want you to stop posting it, because your ideas seem more ludicrous by the day.
Yes, those poor poor Tankers got thrown under the bus - with their significantly higher base DEF, base RES and base HP numbers (remember, Brutes have all of those at 25% less than the Tanker versions).
For the rest of you, this statement above is the part that JB is unable to deal with without resorting to his land of endless buffs where everyone is perma-capped DEF, RES, HP & DAM line of reasoning. -
Quote:That would require an entirely new set of animations, i.e. a brand new set.Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
"Slower" should have meant longer animations probably. It probably wasn't the best idea to simply improve the DPS of each power in a game where you can pile on so much +recharge so easily now.
Which defeats the point of proliferation which is basically a way the devs can recycle material and have us be happy about it.
Not to mention that the game is not balanced on piles and piles of recharge. -
Quote:I've had this conversation with Auroxis before.Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
This comment baffles me... there's always going to be at least 1 target in range of AAO when you're using a melee attack. How does no +dam beat some +dam?
The main idea is that SR can get softctapped easier than SD can,at which point you can focus on +Damage bonuses (and more rech) and help close the gap of AAO.
However, it remains to be seen if this allows for potential parity across the board (which I don't believe is true and Auroxis has not outright asserted) and is solely the province of DB/SR, which is where Auroxis' main assertion is.
At the same time, Auroxis has often just said "SR" and not "DB/SR" which are two very different arguments in my opinion and I simply don't agree that SR can "easily pull ahead" seeing that AAO with 1 target in range is (correct me if I'm wrong) +20% damage (19.38% in mids). -
Quote:If it has better survivability and equal or even slightly better damage from the Aura, then the Brute version is simply the more optimal choice.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Great question! Actually the reason I want to convince the people asking for power set advice that electric armor is inferior on a scrapper by exactly one standard, survivability
Where have you been?Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
is that there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent on the forum toward what seems to me to be homogeneous play. This is manifest particularly in the brute zone where, at last check, 90% of current threads are about SS/FA farmer builds.
Or do you have a short memory?
Elm/SD, Fm/SD and DM/SD they've all had their share of forum hogging on the scrapper boards.
Sometimes one combo is particularly popular, sometimes some really amazing player does something really amazing with a combo and suddenly everyone wants to play that as well ('sup iggy
)
But the current popularity of SS/FA has no relevance of any kind of a discussion about optimal choices concerning completely different sets.
Don't worry, soon you might get to combat EA in the Scrapper forums as it has the potential to become "The New SR".
I never said it was a bad idea.Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Arguing against that would clearly be a lost cause so instead I take what I can get and point out that no, it isn't a bad idea to play these sets on a scrapper.
Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I remind you that this argument arose from loads of people telling someone that he simply had to reroll a character that it sounded like he'd already taken quite far.
I think its time for you to go back and re-read the thread.
This argument arose when this post happened:
Its number 8 in the thread, in case you want to go back and check.Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycleSince nobody else has mentioned it, as I am the only person who prefers scrappers to brutes, I shall point out that follow up for scrappers is approximately thrice as effective as it is for brutes. In addition to this already oceanically salient point, scrapper spin's recharge advantage is more than merely significant in applications where you can be sure that its target cap will be saturated even without considering its heightened ability to apply procs. To carve the stately wiener onto this David of an argument, the scrapper archetype icon is both yellow and swooshy, thus indescribably more liable to excite one's passions than the grey fist.
Here's another gem.
Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycleIn other words, the entire case for this guy to waste a lot of his time is predicated on at best misunderstanding and at worst lies. Nihilii has been the only one arguing in good faith, in pointing out that the actual advantages for the brute are going to be some hitpoints, some regen, and the taunt.
The funny part is Nihilii outright told gum he should reroll (and I agree with Nihilii's overall assertions)
Quote:Originally Posted by Nihilii[/quoteDefinitely. The difference is going to be night and day - on top of the plain number advantage, you'll have things glued to you rather than running away all the time, making for an actually bigger increase in damage.Quote:Originally Posted by GumThink it's worth rerolling?
At 90% res you can take 2.5 times as much punishment compared to 75%, that means Energy all the time and all damage types save psi while under Power Surge.
It's one of the (thankfully few) combos where there is simply no performance reason to use it on the other AT. Better damage, better survivability, better everything.
Here's my fav:
Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycleTHIS IS POST NUMBER 67
You've now caught on to this yourself, Deus, but damned if it didn't take some doing.
Quote:Originally Posted by Deus_OtiosusTHIS IS POST NUMBER 40, 40 IS A NUMBER THAT COMES BEFORE 67
If you don't know if you would enjoy fury or not, and you are already L50 and IOd out - then no I don't think you should stress out about it, nor reroll.
If you do care about absolute top performance and are willing to put in the time investment to get there, then it is a stronger option.
I think it was an attempt to separate Brutes and Scrappers thematically, where the Scrapper version is light & fast and the Brute version is slower but harder hitting.Quote:Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
(For the record, I have no idea what went into deciding how the Claws powers would change when ported to Brutes. It was fairly haphazard. Well, that's not entirely true. The single target changes are straighforward, but the AoEs? Dunno.)
Quote:Originally Posted by Nihilii
No one should click that link.
Seriously though, reading more than the OP and the last post before posting a reply can help understanding why a discussion went from point A to point B.
Additionally, not labelling players as "brutes" or "scrappers" can help understand the discussion itself. If you get so emotional about specific ATs or characters you play that you'll take any claim of better performance from another AT or character as a personal attack, how do you expect to have any kind of conversation on relative performance? Or maybe you don't and just want to act smug like the forum goers who chant "play what you like, play what you like" in answer to OP asking "which is better?", but again I fail to see the point.
Really, if you want to make this personal I'm a scrapper at heart. I wish scrappers weren't so far behind on survivability and aggro capabilities compared to brutes in the highend game. That there are combos like Claws/Elec where everything is better as a brute is just adding insult to injury ; and of course, same goes the other way with, say, KM/SD and DM/SD being ridiculously better on scrappers.
Ideally it'd be best if any given powerset had more or less the same strength regardless of the AT and if indeed the only consideration would be playstyle. That it isn't is one reason balance is worth discussing, so people can make informed choices.
I quoted this, because while Nihilii was addressing Delmain, it also applies very well to PleaseRecycle.
Its also something I really agree with. -
Quote:He does play Brutes, he's even mentioned as much from the thread last week.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. I think his intent is that he wants to play brutes, but he just doesn't realize it (actually, I am pretty sure he does play brutes, so he likely gets it on some level).
And I think he is lying.Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
He frequently says he does not value the extra mitigation tankers get.
I think he secretly values it, and simply wants Tankers to do more damage on top of it. -
Quote:If you could control yourself for a moment and stop being hysterical, you would see that equivalent damage means that it favors the Brute as the Brute has better numbers from Ela.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I feel like we're in the twilight zone. No, the damage aura does not favor the brute, not at all! What the hell? "Give us numbers!" *numbers are given* "We choose to ignore this!"
This means Ela is a better choice on a Brute.
Nothing is being ignored by me, you consistently ignore that Ela is hands down a better choice on a Brute than on a Scrapper.
Higher HP, Higher Regen, Higher Res Caps, Higher Ene Res when slotted sitting at the 90% Cap and a roughly equivalent damage aura (with the Brute doing a touch more damage) and a taunt aura to prevent enemies from running.
This is unlike SD, where the Brute gets much lesser benefit than the Scrapper who gets higher AAO numbers, which work on a higher scalar and who also gets a much better version of Shield Charge.
You seem like one of those people who have a favored AT and simply cannot accept when something they have just works mechanically better on another AT.
I favor Brutes somewhat because I enjoy holding aggro for teams but that doesn't keep me from seeing that several power-sets are clearly much better mechanically on Scrappers: Shield Defense, Dual Blades, Kinetic Melee & Electric Melee for example.
Its knowing this that is the deciding factor for me when choosing specific power-sets and power-set combinations.
Its knowing this that will see me reroll my WM/SD Brute as a WM/SD Scrapper because the Brute will be a lesser version in nearly every aspect with the exception of higher HP & higher Res Caps (And the Res Cap is fairly hard to reach on SD anyway).
I'm not sure why you want to convince yourself that Ela is a better choice on a Scrapper, but in the end that's really your problem to deal with. -
Quote:Pretty much.Originally Posted by Rylas
That's quite a few qualifiers to be throwing around. Those situations are few and far between, and any AT can be replaced in those situations. So please, find a new dead horse. This one's just pink pulp now.
JB's entire premise exists in the land of make believe, where everyone is IOd to the gills, L50+3 Incarnate shifted and perma HP capped and perma resistance, defense and regen capped...and he's worried about Tankers vs. other melees of all things.
I'm not really responding for his sake. He has his misguided agenda (to make Tankers the most powerful melee AT in the game in both Mitigation and Damage dealing) and will not be deterred from it.Quote:Originally Posted by GI Justice
Everyone, stop replying to Johnny. It'll never be enough. Regardless of what you say, facts presented, of quoted developer intent, OR your personal opinions, you will never convince him of anything other than what has been decreed as law within his own, delicate sensibilities.
I post, so other posters can see the massive flaws in his argument - although its probably something easily recognized.
"Their Intent" belonged to a different development team.Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Their intent for Tankers was different than the mess Tankers are now.
"Their Intent" changed when they decided to create villain ATs and severely nerfed all of the Tanker mitigation levels, reducing base DEF, RES and HP by 25% to create the AT that is Brutes who got the Fury mechanic.
Because he wants Fury as is, ported to Tankers while also getting to keep their mitigation levels.Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why can't you just be happy they made Brutes to fill that role instead? You already received your wish and got the AT you desire. Why complain about a different AT?
JB's consistent intent is to make Tankers clearly and easily superior to every other melee AT in the entire game.
He never addresses the mitigation disparity, and only focuses on this magic situation where Brutes and Scrappers are completely perma-HP capped, perma RES capped and perma DEF capped. -
Quote:In which case the damage aura favors the Brute, as the Brute has higher HP, more regen and higher Energy Res (capped).Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Oy.
Colossal, we went over damage auras earlier in the thread. The results weren't exactly as dramatic as it seems like people had hoped. It in fact turns out that damage auras are identical on brute and scrapper.
Barrier every time for WP.Quote:Originally Posted by BrandX
Barrier? Really? I think I much prefere Rebirth (Heal/Regen) for my WPs.
A WP Brute can be built to already regenerate 100-130 HP/S (maybe more with Spiritual).
As Nihilii said, lack of regeneration is not what is going to kill you.
What is going to kill you is sudden massive spike damage, and any kind of severe debuffing (like Def failure).
Barrier also provides two forms of mitigation, DEF to reduce incoming attacks and then RES to reduce the damage that gets through.
This is also very good because it allows you to "hedge your bets" so to speak, for the times when you will face severe regen debuffs.
On my /WP Brute I can cycle T4 Barrier, SoW, Demonic Aura and Robusts for the most exteme of survivability needs.
On KIR, I swap to T4 Rebirth, but that's a very special case and its also better for the league as a whole in that particular circumstance.