Dahjee
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Posts
415 -
Joined
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Nah.
It's possible... but the spotlight is on....
So if you really feel the way you do....
You better show up.... and come at me bro.
Ya dig? -
{Disclaimer: Becasue I have to now-a-days... If you have a problem with my two cents... Then have the guts to start a thread about it. I will be happy to show up in it. Just say my name... Otherwise... don't mention it.}
I'd place my self somewhere in the middlie betwen the carebears and the hardcore PvP'ers. I live in the middle. As I've PvP'ed about 80% of my in-game time since PvP was introduced in CoX... but technically. I've never really rolled a PvP toon. I start with a concept, I find a purpose, I then roll, level, learn, and respec toons until I find builds that do both rather well. I like that this game allows me to do so, and be just as competetive, effective, and successful as people who build strictly for PvP. This is what love the most about my CoH PvP experience.
I don't know if it's my not-so-serious approach to hardcore pvping, but I strangely have very little to complain about the CoH PvP experience. Sure, I could write a very long list of specific changes that affected my toons in a negative way, but even with those changes I've always enjoyed PvPing in this game. For example, my Ill/FF troller has had to change playstyles more than any other toon I know due to AoE mez nerfs... Max number of Pets changes... toggle dropping changes... defenses changes... actual power changes... and so on... yet to this day thrives... due to the adaptation of the current system. (Ill/FF has the big four mezzes which do not conflict with each others' timers: hold, confuse, KB, and cage... and placate via day job temps) This Ill/FF was my first toon. Not my first PvP toon... but the first toon I ever rolled almost 7 years ago. Like all my toons after it. it has NEVER been dependant on a system to thrive.
I also like the way changes to PvP have happened in the past few years. Without the hype and expectations. Subtle changes that aren't labeled as PvP changes... but offer reasons to try something new, and fill in a gap... or play a bit differnetly than before... or changes that add to a playstyle already perfected.
-New and useful temp powers
-Defender damage buff
-Dom rebalancing
-Hibernate for Defenders
-Epic pool proliferation
-Side switching
-PvP IOs
-Incarnate slotting
-Inherent Stamina
-Bug Fixes
-Arena options
-arena match from anywhere
-Shard drops from players
-Alignment Powers
-The realization that Teaming solves everything
-and lots more to come in I20!
Sure. Most will shrug off this list. Some will ignore it because none of it addressed HD or TS or DR... but I addressed those things about 2 weeks after I13... everyone else it seems quit, ran to hide in the arena, or came to the boards on a quest to convince the devs of this game that they know better.
The quality of PvP in this game has improved over time in the last year or two. Sadly though... the quality of PvPers has gotten worse at a faster rate. Once stuck doing the same things the same way... One will never see positive change unless it affects their way of doing things. If a deer somehow became capable of killing a hunter unless two shots were put in each eye (crude and random I know, sorry) Most hunters would rage about it and quit the sport... others would rise to the challege. Those against such a change would only applaud a change if it made what was already easy to do... easier. Think about that deeply and you'll have an idea of why I13 was both a success and a failure.
I like the complexity of CoH PvP. The fact that DR numbers are cryptic in a way. It encourages me to learn from trial and error. The way mez works make me feel smarter and acomplished when I'm able to use it effectively to control situations. The skill most will agree is required for insp management is the same as the skill required for insp use and power activation when TS is on, and the same skill required for using heals when HD is on... I like that. Having think about when to do what... as opposed to just doing it because you can or because that power is recharged.
I like that this game was smart enough to seperate the PvE and PvP systems in way that made PvP feel like an exclusive club, and keep in tact the basic roles and requirements of ATs. The fact that doin so allows for PvP'rs to get new powers changes and new powers without affecting balance is cool too... but not really "in my face" noticable heh, but I give props anyways. I'm not a numbers guy, so fortunately I wasn't affected much by changes to duration, or rech, or DPS and DPA. Nah i'm a tactics guy. A strategy guy. A guy that used /Psy on a dom long before Psy/came to blasters and knew that delayed damage and inherent range of psy would be OP if left in tact for blasters heh...
I like that this PvP system encourages and allows someone like me to shine, and enjoy everything allowed.
Sadly and/or surprisingly... what I dislike about PvP in this game has nothing to do with PvP is this game. What I dislike has to do with the fact that I have no desire to be a active participant or leader in the PvP community... and that the result of my personal dersire leads me to depend on leaders and respesentatives that choose not to express any other wishes and wants for PvP other than their own or those that agree with thier wishes and wants.
Real Talk.
As a PvP community. Our morale is at an all time low right now. Blaming others is easiest to do. Waiting for someone to fix it is a lazy man's game. Ignoring everything and anything except our personal wants and wishes is a sure way to prevent posistive change from affectting us (personally). Coming togetheras a wisercommunity (that is left despite the opinions that were programed into us from those that have left) is the path towrads balance... towards unity... and towards a better PvP experience for us all. Our ability to do so has become more important than ever before.
Highlighting and sticking to the parts we find the most fun is the most effective way to stay as paying customers, and because of this, it's easy for me to recoginize and commend the point of the OP, obviously because we are being prompted to deatil our favorite parts.
If the true purpose of this thread is to start a dialog with the PvP community that will hopefully lead to a summarized copy being set a dev's desk... I sincerely hope that you Zwillinger, will not be too poilite with us. I hope that you have the guts to tell us where we have messed up along with expressing the thoughts of the devs messing up. Continuing to allow us to think we know all there is know in regards to PvP (In this Game) is a mistake. I encourage you to strive for honesty... for that, most often is what clears one's shoulders of burden of truth...
TY for listening.
{Disclaimer: Becasue I have to now-a-days... If you have a problem with my two cents... Then have the guts to start a thread about it. I will be happy to show up in it. Just say my name... Otherwise... don't mention it.} -
No. Just wait until I stop by.
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LR description seems accurate. It does exactly what it advertises.
Knockdown powers are essentially the same as knockback powers. Knockdown will turn into KB when used against weaker foes, while Knockback will turn into knockdown when used against stronger foes. It's releative. -
They still do.
What seems to be the problem friend? -
Your ignorance of fly is ironic. Your reading comprehension is just sad. I clearly stated that my post was not to make a point about which travel is better or worse. I stated that my point was simply to show that KB has little to no effect on a flyer, (and you agree) and because of that, we all have the option to choose not to use several slots and a power pool pick to get KB protection.
You define mobility by how fast your ground and jump speed is... not by where you toon is capable of getting to. SS/SJ is more mobile but cannot reach 75% of a zone due to no vertical movement? You gonna tell me that a jetpack is superior or just as good as hover? You seriously suggest using several temp powers to equal what hover/fly can do? Even though that statement is pretty much BS... Mac you are still gold.
You are right on one point though. As one of the things a good PvP flyer needs the most is another travel pick to complement it. Naturally this is Teleport, and the combo counters SS/SJ in a zone anyday when played well. Hasten is overated these days. CJ is just a mule that hover replaces. You do NOT lose mobilty with hover/fly/TP. This is a myth. You lose travel speed. There is a difference. SS/SJ'ers MOVE faster. They do not get from point A to point B fatser. They cannot evade as effectively as a TP'er. They retreat to their base while a flyer just has to TP upwards once a few hundred feet lol. I can give a SS/SJ'er a 3 second headstart to get away and still be in front of them before they reach their base. The lovely trail of SS they leave behind helps btw. The prereq's need for TP, (TP Foe and/or TP friend) are more useful for mitigation and disruption than most consider. I could go on, but I have no desire to change a fixed opinion.
You don't realize Mac... that for the same reason KB affects a SS/SJ'er more so than a Flyer/TP'er... TS and HD do as well. It's a matter of playstyle, not a matter of mobility. You have your pref. and there are many advantages and disadvatages that come with it. You've never realized that many of the things you despise about the current pvp system are due to your tired ol' playstyle. I wish you luck in discovering these things on your own. I'm here to help if you have trouble.
PS. Mac you know better by now... just walk away friend. I'm close to the edge ya know. -
Quote:I agree. This is why the majority of players, in this case, also have to slot for KB protection.Originally Posted by TehFiri
Taking SJ/SS is what the majority of players, in this case, take for travel powers.
Funny.Quote:Originally Posted by TehFiri
Hover just isn't practical to take in this case. What are you gonna do? Put Hover on a foot pedal so you can get lucky and turn it on right before you get knocked back? Besides that not even working, it isn't practical.
Seriously though, no. Flying builds are different than standard ss/sj builds, and slot and power investment is different when building one. It is easy to look at this concept as lacking mobility when compared to SS/SJ, but only because slotting and tactics for these builds aren't as copy/paste or as commonly known. There are things a good PvP flyer needs as much as a SS/SJ'er needs KB protection for example, but we can agree to disagree on that point really. Your mileage with Hover/Fly in PvP apparently varies from mine...
My point wasn't about better or worse, but that there are other choices to consider before dedicating 7 or more slots and a power pool pick to KB protection. Ignoring these other options or labeling them "not practical" isn't just cause for changing a power that only suits your preference.
WAI I'd say. Sorry to disagree. -
Getting bumped once or twice while staying airborne is much different than what a SJ'er experiences when caught in mid jump with a KB effect.
For me to say hover can nulify KB might have been too strong a phrase. The effect may be there but the consequences are far less severe... to the point of needing little to no KB protection on a flier. Keep in mind that most powers that can drop flyers will also be granting those players with KB protection.
Basically, flying has plenty issues in PvP... but KB isn't one of them. -
Wow, seven slots just for KB protection on top of taking three powers to get acro is nuts!
To think one could trade all of that in for hover... one power available at level 6 that unslotted can nullify KB.
Just sayin... it's a choice made. KB is a weakness of most SS/SJ builds, and to counter this weakness you can get buffed by a kin or sacrafice slots using IOs to reach a desired level of KB protection.
A fair choice of three options imo. Your wish to sacrafice less to get KB protection is understandable, but I don't see just cause for such a change when you have other options. -
I remember when coming to the PvP boards and griping about how PvP works just meant you were bad and needed to lrn2play.
I also remember when it was poor taste to come to the PvP boards and talk about our feelings.
Heh, now it's pretty much the norm. I guess I too miss the old days... but for different reasons.
By the way... it's been years people. Can we stop calling the PvP system and the I13 changes new? -
Quote:I was too.Originally Posted by lll Phoenix lll
I was talking to the PvPers of this thread.
/em fake tear. -
lol you all can't even handle mature conversation from me...
What on earth makes you think a Dev is gonna step in here and try to talk sense to any of you here?
The sad has become epic.
bullies? lol forum rep??
I'm pretty sure I got challenged to a dool to!
lol so ******* sad.
Quote:YOU CaN'T H4NDLE THE TL;DR!Originally Posted by DaveMebs
Can I get a TL;DR? -
Quote:Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Everyone knows zones is where real pvp happens. Stop pretending like its not.Real PvP happens whenever, wherever, and however Real PvP'ers choose to PvP. I apologize if this statement is too deep for you to understand. Arena is just a place that allows for Real PvP... Zone is another. Each zone and every combination of settings and maps in arena offer another place that allows the same.Quote:Originally Posted by Psyrene
See herein lies dahjee's problem, he compares everything to how it works in the lol zones, where most of us speak in 8v8 terms.
I agree that regardless of the examples given, you all do seem to give responses based soley on an 8 vs 8 line up. While it is frustrating to try and make a point when dealing with peeps that can only look at things from one single perspective... I understand how doing things the same way and taking such pride in doing so... can make one defensive and unwilling to consider other perspectives. I remain patient, and do my best to stay polite.
I have nothing against arena, but I'm not a fan of the idea that somehow High-End competetive PvP is also the PvP that offers the least ammount of challenge, requires only the simplest AT builds to reach the deisired goal, and encourages the opposite of what the initial I13 changes were about. I'm 100% certain that those who lead such arena leagues and arena events could do better if they allowed themselves to consider a perspective beyond their current one.
Quote:Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
I can tell you there was and is alot more experimenting done that you think there is.... many of the PVPers in this game spend a great deal of time talking to each other. What each of us have discovered on an individual basis and what we have discovered as a group is shared among the community (either through chat channels, team sites, or here on the forums.) And when something new is dicovered it does not take long before it is capitalized by everyone (ie: look at psi/ems or now km/regens in zone.) You've read the forums (I think?) but seem to ignore we do actually try out and talk about different combinations and even more is done on individual team sites.I have no doubt that things have been tried... that some things have worked for you and others and some things have not... that even as we speak, in-game there are very smart and very skilled PvP'ers getting results from combintaions considered useless by the masses... but I'm no fool. There is a diference between providing guides and posting builds. They provide and promote two different things. If you have trouble figuring out the difference, let me know.Quote:Originally Posted by Psyrene
I will also echo what others have said over and over again. You haven't been on test teams or any league teams so you have no idea of what we talk about on our teams boards or what we practice and test to see what is effective and what is not, you only see the results of our testing and then claim that we only use AT"x" and AT"y". Well they are used because the testing we have done has determined them to be the most effective..
I am aware of the fact you all dodge and ignore me when I point out that effectiveness varies depending on the situation, team purpose, enviroment, etc... that your idea and definition of what has been "proven" effective is based on the settings and situations you test them under, and that competing under the same set of rules for long periods of time will surely reduce the possibility of playstyle options and diversity regardless of the ruleset. When you all are ready to discuss these issues as a community, let me know.
Quote:Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
Dahjee, you have compared people's idea of fun to what is "easy." I had fun pre-i13, and I have fun post-i13, but I had more fun when it was "easier" to evade pre-i13. Yeah it was easier. There is the flip side to that, it was also "harder" to defeat my opponents who could also evade with similar "ease" and I still had more fun then than I do now.
The fast movement of pre-i13 was what made it fun for me and I think for many others. Now it is slow... slow... slow. I would have higher degress of fun if they reverted travel suppresion to pre-i13 status, and removed heal decay, removed global resists and DR. Powers would actually work the way they are described, what a concept. The other stuff I can live with.
Sure. OK. You have a preference. It's your 15 bucks a month... and you have a place and a way to escape the TS and HD that you find un fun. You cannot have it both ways though. You cannot preach about Real PvP... and High End competetive PvP that requires whatever levels of PvP skill this game offers and also say it happens on the simple basis of fun and ease of play.Quote:Originally Posted by Psyrene
He replaces fun with easy for us.
Well I will tell you, Dahjee, that the addition of TS and HD into the zones has just made being in them no fun. When we go in with 4 or 5 of us on a team, it is still mind numbingly easy to kill people, especially those with no evasion skills, no support, etc. but the speed is sooooo slow like attempting to run in mud that is neck deep. Playing an emp and effectively watching them die because you can't do your job to heal them because of heal decay is no fun, the fun factor going down due to TS and HD is what we have complained about.
We're going in circles. When you can't turn to the numbers to base your argument on... you turn to "fun" as subjective as it is... and expect me to beleive that your fun is dependant on the system. This is the part where I'd explain that the system and powers/sets wthin are bound to change as it has so often in the past... and that one'e enjoyment of PvP can be based on doing well within the system, whatever it may be... as we have done so often in the past. This of course, is when you all turn back to the numbers.
Quote:Originally Posted by Tokyo
With that said, the fact that you just made the statement of "fighting the good fight" means you support tribs efforts to mend what is left of PvP and those who followed in tribs footsteps. You are disagreeing simply to disagree.
stop trolling this thread. Can we get a mod in here to get rid of Dahjees unproductive and misinformed postings please?
Hey Guys. I'm not a troll, and I'm not trolling. What's funny is that I'm probably the only one in this thread that's been on topic from the start considering the OP was referring to the boards with their "How sad it is" title. My points revolve around these PvP forums... the sad state that they are in at the moment, what has caused it, and how to improve in the future. Without me in this thread, like almost every other new thread in the last 2 months here, it would have died having the same 6 people in agreement, using the same bad jokes with the same whiny attitude. I'm almost doing you all a favor by showing up. Your welcome btw. I hot threads, troll trolls, and given the oppourtunity... offer conversations that provide meaningful insight to newbies and veterans alike. I do so without raging or taking things personal.Quote:Originally Posted by IronFlag
This dahjee dude is the most epic troll of all time. No one can be that stupid.
TROLL SUCCESSFUL
Simply put... because they were PvP changes... designed for gameplay based on players fighting other players. General questions often beg for general answers B_Wtched. Would you like to elaborate or even specify which changes you are refferring to?Quote:Originally Posted by B_Witched
... why is it the changes in i13 - to pvp, 6 issues later have never and will never make it to pve?
Happy 2011! -
Quote:Fixed that first part for you...Originally Posted by Tokyo
The only reason we run KB without TS is that it isn't easy; it isn't easy being suppressed when spiking, it isn't easy being suppressed when being attacked and it sure as well isn't easy when you're trying to buff your teammates and being suppressed in the process.
We don't run HD because HD isn't easy and it isn't fair to the buffers, ESPECIALLY when keeping oneself alive against a full spike team.
Tokyo, we both know that freedom is where bad players go to farm.Quote:Originally Posted by Tokyo
Dahjee, I am the worst PvPer in Virtue and most likely the entire game. With that said I farm you constantly in Virtue RV. That's telling you something about your credibility.
Stop talking, listen and try to learn something.
I only know of Term Lad, and that toon is on freedom so meh to your attempt.
With your humor and wit, I'm thinking you ought to step up to the plate and and continue where Mac left off... the good fight continues and if anyone will be the one to get more checkboxes added to the arena so it can feel guud again... you're the one for the job. -
Quote:So... let me get this straight....Originally Posted by B_Witched
The only viable pvp is going on in arenas (champ league, freedom league etc) you know why? No heal decay, no Travel supression...hmm...
The only viable PvP is the kind where you remove npcs, take away temp powers, make sure the odds are even, control the use of insps, change the settings of standard PvP to allow for heal spamming, turn off travel suppression, and more often than not... fight on an enclosed map?
Really? How long have you been playing that same way B Witched? A year now? Since I13? Since your initial programming? Sad.
Quote:Originally Posted by Supermax
You have absolutely no idea what PvP'ers do and what they don't do. I can absolutely guarantee that any idea you may have HAS been thought of and most likely even tested in the past. Yes, people have used 6 bubblers to see what defense they would have. Yes, people have built teams around slows. Yes, people have used recall friend semi-successfully.
In the end, those things were proven to be ineffective, or at least not as effective as other things. What is most effective is what's currently being used. Please stop acting like you're the only one that understands the game.Since the two you are basically saying the same thing I'll make just one reply.Quote:Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Defense and slow based teams get wrecked by coordinated damage spikes. While those targets are down others are getting hit with less available support and those that died need to be rebuffed. Once the first kill hits the rest is a rinse and repeat downhill raepfest. The same thing goes for most teams that revolve around a single purpose/function. We know this because we've tested it.
You assume we don't know. I don't know why, but you do. Your hypotheticals are off base. Thinking outside the box is something we do. That's why there's teams built around obnoxious TA's flooring people and gravs wormhole'ing targets and some interesting and potentially hilarious turtle teams. It's not all 5 psi/em jump teams, but they are effective. And the ones that figured out that the delayed damage mini spike offered by psi blast made for an excellent spike were those that are making these other teams. Not you or those like you that stand on their pedestal and cry to the masses that you're the only ones that understand.
You toss around words like "proven" and "tested" where they do not apply... and while this would normally make me laugh... I cry a little on the inside because I know you believe the things you've been told to be absolutely true. What's sadder, is that you base all these tests off the same controlled settings, done in the past, secretly I suppose because the feedback never makes it to the boards to be discussed. I'm guessing you can only recall of maybe one time, or this one team who tried this or that... and their failure to be effective in your eyes was enough beleive that no other team or persons could make it work.
You still cannot escape the idea of effectiveness outside of a 10 min arena win match. Neither of you could even seperate "Effective Slows" from an "Effective 8 v 8 line-up." Neither seem to be able to grasp the notion that effectiveness varies depending on a number of things, and the effectiveness you cling to is the result of clinging to the same damn way of doing things. It's whatever though. I know what I'm dealing with here... I have no desire to changed a fixed opinion. My desire is to open up the discussion... Slowly things have improved here on the boards, but still much to do. I do not know where either of you have heard me say that "I am the ONLY one who understands" so I would appreciate it if you got off of that. Pointing out that others have misunderstood is not the same thing. -
Quote:Try it and get back to me. I don't know... you don't know. That's my point. Sure the numbers say this and that... and too often such is enough to turn our assumptions into fact without actually experienceing the full picture.Originally Posted by Terror1
Not sure but it would take calculus and too much effort and even then how is it anything but a party trick?
Here, the point you missed was that slows are possibly most effective when they are concentrated and/or coordinated from different players/sets. Nothing else was really implied.Quote:Originally Posted by Terror1
And would probably get shitted on by more offensive oriented lineups.
Sad. So very Sad indeed.Quote:Originally Posted by Terror1
Aoes work. On mm pets. -
Quote:I understand things well enough. I admit though I do not stress the numbers as much as some who understand things better. Seems more productive to spend time getting the most out it than to waste time playing dev and suggestting tweaks here and there. Also, the points I make have less to do with in game as it does with how we represent it here on the boards.Originally Posted by LuxunS
Actually, yes. Just because you do not understand the math behind the system, doesn't mean that there are not people here that do. Your ideas about what could be good in pvp are not groundbreaking or ingenious, they are bad.
Sounds reasonable. The system is indeed complex, but the purpose of it is very simple and I remain shocked at how this passes over so many heads. Is it easy reach all round postional defense of 48% solo? Is is possible without a T9? Isn't it a noticable and significant buff to sit above 45% def in PvP? If it were easy to reach def of 60 and 70% when it could very well nullify acc like back in the day... wouldn't everyone do it? If you didn't have to spend 10 billion to get so-so defense because you could expect to be buffed over 45% anyway... would you still consider buff bots useless?Quote:Originally Posted by LuxunS
Using your example: It's highly subjective based on slotting because the system is so complex. Taking an SR at the soft-cap for defenses and 6 FF controllers slotted shields with 3x lotgs (it puts the shields at +17% defenses). In PvE the SR would sit around 147% defenses. In PvP it would be in the area of 48%.
48%. Bet you weren't expecting that.
Well... now you forgot to mention what each of those controllers numbers would be with 5 sets of bubbs each. I'm not a numbers guys, but I bet in comparision to the /SR, such buffs would be as significant because of DR. Not to mention 6 cages to isolate a single foe, 6 force bubb, dispersion fields, taunt, etc etc...Quote:Originally Posted by LuxunS
Besides, while that 48% defense scrapper is running around having a slightly hard time being hit, his teammates are being farmed. DR hits squishies much harder defensively. They'd be farmed and the SR wouldn't be that much better off.
Overall my point was that things like this aren't being played with... so there becomes little to base the whining on.
Forgive my insults... I wish what I said wasn't seen as such. I admit though that they are genral enough to only insult those they specifically refer to, and I can live with that.Quote:Originally Posted by LuxunS
I apologize if this post seems harsh, but you constantly insult veteran PvPers. Many of the players you accuse of thinking one dimensional are far better players then you or me. They don't play those builds simply to be closed-minded, they play those builds because they work. -
Quote:PvP isn't broken... there is nothing to fix.Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
Any chance of pvp getting fixed just walked out of Paragon Studios with our rather large comic book guy powers dude.
What we've had here for two years is a bunch of people wanting things to be their way, and refusing to play things the way it was re-designed.
It only seems broken to many because many... naturally, we want to take the easiest path to victory possible, and when eveything requires more skill and effort... with the exception of spamming damage... you end up with a bunch of damage spammers with lots of HP and the illusion of skill looking around and calling the system broken.
As a veteran PvP'er... it's embarassing.
Imagine what the devs would think of the PvE playerbase if took them 3 years to figure out how to successfully complete a MS raid or take down Hamidon. If PvE'ers spent two years fighting, begging, whining to the devs to Fix MS raids and Hammi...
The devs cannot change the current PvP system because the current system has not been fully tested or explored... and it's been over two years!
Do any of you know what defense numbers a /SR can get to with 6 sets of Bubbles?
What kind of slows could an ice team comprised of Ice/ and /Ice Blasters, Tanks, Defs, Trollers, Doms, and Corrs produce?
When recall friend can act as a 8 second "Do whatever and click this when it's time to escape" power... why aren't there any Blasters/Trollers brave enough to coordinate nukes and AoEs... Too hard?? So we say AoEs are useless, right?
It's whatever... so many will continue looking at there toons feeling like they had no choce, when we've had one all along... and we were told very simply what to aim for but ignored such suggestions from the people that make the game.
The only thing broken is the way we look at PvP in this game. -
Quote:cry me a river?Originally Posted by Tokyo
This forum has been dead ever since Mac, Con and friends finally realized the Devs weren't listening to them; despite insightful and informative recommendations for improvement.
Funny thing is the devs probably felt those guys weren't listening too... despite insightful and informative recommedations for improvement. -
Quote:I warned you all of this a year ago or so...Originally Posted by B_Witched
that a forum that was probably the most active has 4 threads with recent post - most of them jokes...
Do you all wish to blame the devs for the decay of this particular forum too?
It is a shame, I agree. This place has the potential for countless debates and discussions regarding lol Zone and lol Arena PvP. Each has a several styles and ways of play. However since you all decided years ago amongst yourselves that there's only one way of doing things... well...
GG I guess. Being stuck inside a box for so long... I'm surprised to see some of you here at all these days. -
Quote:Ummm... that's only vaguely true becuase 85% of the player base in PvP has the same playstyle... often and unfortunately... no matter what toon they are playing.Originally Posted by NerfKiller
This may be so but 85% of that playstyle is easy enough for a mentally handicapped retarded monkey child to accomplish. So, it really only comes down to 5% skill and the remaining 10% gadgets/ build.
Believe it or not... the playstyle that is Pew Pew SS/SJ/ Ldrshp/ Pew Pew [escape power] rinse and repeat... is not the only effective one.
To the OP:
You must realize that you are the intended target of "the change."
The good news is that the system was designed with your mentality in mind.
The bad news is that it will probably be another two years before the PvP player base recognizes that if they all thought the way you do... PvP wouldn't be as dull as it is.
If you want my "bad advice" keep doing what your're doing and do it as best as you can. Be the change you wish to see in the game <--- Real Talk.
Define your success in PvP as a troller - as one who doesn't aim to get kills... but aims to make kills easier to get for those specialized in DPS/Damage/Kills/etc...
Make sacrafices in your build to get the most out of your purpose and be happy with them despite the ignorance (and trash talk) of PvP'ers around you that have no clue how to benefit from what you offer.
You will suffer from this at first... but in the end you will prevail. In the end... you will find a few smart PvP'ers that understand what it is that you do that makes what they do work better, and happen more often. Damage dealers will adore you for this. Buffers will protect you for this.
Understand and pay attention to the playstlyes around you. It isn't PvE but the mentality of a CC toon should not diminsih because of this. Should you use your hold to start a spike or should you reserve it to use before your target tries to use there escape power? CC still exists and is just as important in PvP as it is in PvE. The timing of powers used is one of the adjustments a controller has to master before reaching the levels of CC they expect based on PvE experience.
Finally, learn form your mistakes and never die the same way twice. Desipte what many will tell you here on the boards... Evasion is not tied to any specific AT or build. You will be targeted because you are a squishy with little offfense and the ability to get people killed if left undisturbed, and you will die more often than others because of this. This unfortunate fact only means that your troller's playstyle must be highly skilled at evasion.
What you desire from PvP is honorable, understandable and /signed by me.
Sadly said and simply put... you won't get what you desire from PvP until there are a few hundred more like yourself. -
Quote:Ironically... the things many of you whined about then have turned out to be the things that require skill to acheive. Slowly but surely these things are reveling themselves. CC/Disruption did not exist afters I13... it took a few months. Defense bases toons were useless... for even longer. Psy/em were the only option for blasters in a zone for a long time. Slows were impossible for even longer. You remember when healorz were pointless?Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
The well phrased and presented criticisms and suggestions were also provided prior to the horrible PvP changes and were mostly discarded. And there are still a lot of the same PvP'ers around. The complaints today are warranted and obvious. Who's being blind about it? I'm not. I'm not whining either. Nor am I bitter. I am, however, disappointed. And that's warranted too.
"The excuses used by many to complain about I13 have been countered in many ways.." That's just vague enough to mean exactly jack and ****.
It's Whatever though. I have no desire to try and change a fixed opinion. If all you see is that "Now is not pre-I13" then there is really no point in trying to back up my point with specifics. -
Quote:When you're stuck doing the same things the same way... you will never see positive change unless it affects your way of doing things.Originally Posted by macskull
The only PvP-specific "improvements" that have been made in the last two years are the addition of the "no heal decay" option and some bugfixes.
There have been several bones thrown our way... Not surprisingly, they were all probably meaningless to you.
-New and useful temp powers
-Defender damage buff
-Hibernate for Defenders and epic pool proliferation
-Side switching
-Incarnate slotting
-Inherent Stamina
-Bug Fixes you mentioned
-Arena options (for the whiners)
-Shard drops from players
-The realization that Teaming solves everything
-and more!
Of course there is still work to do... while you wait for the devs to make it feel good for you again... someone should focus on getting PvP myths busted. You used to be good at that sort of thing.
-Currently most people think that healing is the only form of effective support.
-Too many cannot understand that bubblers and shieldbots should be built to support melee toons.
-Too many believe that their melee toons do not require support.
-Too many believe that Phase/Hib are the only means of escape.
-Too many people gimping their builds to become something they were not designed to be.
-Too many people believe that there is only one way to do x,y,and z.
-Too many misunderstand the effects and purpose of DR and how to get the most from it
-Too many attach toons to the same playstyle... instead if switching playstyles to fit the toon.
-Too many people believe arena PvP with settings checked is different than lol fiteclubbing.
-Too many people believe that PvP change is solely the responsibilty of the Devs.
-Not enough people looking for counters to x/y builds.
-Not enough people looking for compliments to x/y builds.
-Not enough smart PvPers on the boards.
-Not enough relevant PvP guides
I could go on.... but what's the point? Conversations that would debate/discuss any of this are impossible to have here when too many people are comforted by the confinment that a closed mind creates. -
Quote:I made my comparison while looking at PvE in simplest way I could... where one is very simply just killing one thing after another with some end goal in mind. From that perspective, competition still exists but it's versus dumb to moderate AI (npcs). One could use the same logic that people often use in PvP to choose a toon to roll, but they choose not to because there is more to base a choice on than just damage spam and kill count.Originally Posted by Valentyna
Well, PvM play is a little different. F or one thing its more team oriented for even the casual people, so you might expect there to be, as you say, many roles to fullfill and different optimal builds to fulfill each one. And, in high level team PvP, you do indeed see 2-4 different builds on a given team.
ultimately though, in PvP, everyone needs to be able to look out for themselves at least a little tiny bit, because enemy behavior is not predictable. this reduces diversity still further by reducing drastically the usefulness of tank type characters in any game, and forcing everyone to look effective 'survival techniques' that require the least amount of compromise in their builds - this, for example, is why everyone and their brother has some combination of Hibernate, PFF, and Phase (and the people who don't are usually getting farmed).
Also, in this game at least, PvE is much more balanced, allowing a wider diversity of things to be effective. For example, if I want a PvM healer, I don't necessarily need the highest green numbers to be the best at what I do. I can build a bubbler and do a good job of protecting the team that way. Because Diminishign Returns, and the general prevelance of +ToHit even before that, I cannot really do the same thing in PvP. In PvP support is.... simplified, so to speak, such that whomever has the most possible amount of total healing is the best at it. period. Thats why everyone plays Empathy characters for team PvP - best heals; best buffs. Me with my Thermal pwoers just don't compete because my shields aren't really helping after DR. This is a problem that I feel strongly ought to be addressed, but until it is, it is ludicrous to BLAME those people who want to be healers for choosing the best set for the job and becoming /Emps.
Also its worth noting that most of the reason people deliberately play less than optimal characters is for concept, and people tend to regard PvP as a highly OOC excercise. As an old-fashioned UO player who feels that RP and PvP are logically highly related to one another, I think thats a tragedy of modern MMO gaming, but you can't force people to RP, can you?
All thats almos to one side though. the biggest difference is that PvE is not competitive. I don't need to have the BEST tool for the job in order to succeed. I just need it to be good ENOUGH. the threshold I'm trying to overcome may be higher for some content than others, but its fixed. So long as i have that minimum amount of pwn, if you will, I'm set. I can then waste a few power slots on something I think is cool, or take an epic that fits my characters theme rather than her build, or what have you. In PvP thats not so. there are other people looking for an edge on me, and if they get one, they'll use it to beat me. I MUST have the optimal tool because my enemies will as well, and the objective is to beat them. This is not only true in MMOs, just more obvious and pronounced here. In SP you can get away with a lot of things that you think are just neat. In Multiplayer you need to be better than your opponent, and that basically means you need to be the best.
EDIT: TL;DR.... too bad? Not sure i have a witty summery line, but basically, I think the person above is wrong.
EDIT 2: Isn't that what basically ALL these posts boil down to? LOL. if we actually convinced each other and all came to agree, I can't imagine what we'd have to talk about. :P
I agree with many of explanations you gave that seperate the two worlds (Some I don't but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree)... I certainly agree that they are different, but in the end both PvP and PvE are apart of the same game. The dynamic and design of the game is the foundation of both worlds... and it's a good bet that the devs intended for players to approach both PvE and PvP the same way when deciding what toon to roll. So my question is... why do we choose to look at PvP so simply?
Somewhere, on some server in some PvP zone or instanced arena match... there are two sub-optimal toons fighting each other, being just as competetive, and having just as much fun as two optimal FoTM toons fighting somewhere else. You may be the type that needs to make the BEST toon yours... but PvP would be better as a whole if we took a lesson from PvE and simply made our toons their BEST.
Now I'll be the first to say that my PvP toons aren't uber. None are FoTM. They were all however rolled with a specific purpose in PvP and I've been told I play them pretty well. Each has a vastly different playstyle and and each keeps me interested and having fun when PvPing. Like in PvE, I accept the fact that there will be instances and counters to my toons and move on.
You're right, and I was a bit general when I made that comment on the last line. I admit there are exceptions.Quote:Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Bad PvP'ers are bad. Truth. I don't think FotM toons are necessarily a learning roadblock as long as the player is practicing the right things, actively trying to get better, or has others that DO know what they're doing coaching them. I don't see how playing a less effective toon will help someone learn better than a more effective toon.
I think there's a lot of irony in the fact that people don't understand how playing less effective toons can lead to better skill and knowledge. FoTMs are NOT FoTM until they are made to be so by skilled players. I mean... you expect to get better... by doing the opposite of what the skilled players you're copying from did to create the build? You want the results of one's PvP education (so to speak) but do not want to go through the process they did to get educated?
Most of us will admit that we learn from the mistakes we do make, yet we will also admit that we do not try to make mistakes... It's funny how many of us try to avoid doing the things that help us to learn the most. -
Quote:One could say the same for PvE... but only when you look at things in a very simple way.Originally Posted by Valentyna
I don't actually bowl or know what bumpers are, but assuming your analogy is meant to be abut making things easier, then yes.... of course I would. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't anyone? In any competitive activity you'd almost have to be mentally deficient to consciously chose NOT to seize an advantage over your opponent.
If it makes you feel more accomplished to defeat someone with a build you know is sub-optimal, then... OK. I mean, you're right - by definition it is harder (and therefor, arguably, more impressive), to succeed in a task with inferior tools as opposed to better ones. When I compete though, I compete to win, first; everything else is second. I want the best tools there are. Period.
Even though it's versus AI its still simply a matter of bringing HP bars down to zero just like in PvP. In the PvE world however... when creating characters to play, people don't always use the simplest form of thought to tell them what toon to roll or what sets to combine. No... there's something else that happens. They choose a toon many times based on its purpose, a toon based on a concept, or they choose a toon based on the role it's desigend to play on a team. They then build accordingly, and strangely (compared to PvP)... sometimes even depend on teammates to make up for weaknesses in their build.
Can you imagine how dull this game would be if PvE'ers simply looked at paper DPS and all rolled the same toons because it added up to be the most effective at a given task?
When you re-focus on the created purpose of any set/set combination... any combo can offer the "best tools" for the job... depending on what the job is.
I can't fault anyone for rolling a Psy/EM or any other FoTM toon. Doing so tells me that such is their desired preference, and I feel everyone is entitled to their own pref. since they're paying $$ to play. I do however discourage such a thing with newer or less experienced PvP'ers.
Good PvP'ers... are those who PvP their toons well. It really has nothing to do with the build being used. Bad PvP'ers... are those who PvP their toons poorly. It really has nothing to do with the build being used. Getting better in PvP is harder to do when things are easy for you from the start, and dependancy on any particular AT or build will slow the process of improvement.The skill required to become good using a FoTM in PvP are about the same as those needed to solo grey-conned npcs in PvE.
TL;DR Version: FoTMs work and are WAI. FoTMs will NoT make you a better PvPer... they will make you dependant on the next FoTM.