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Krakel is the name...
On Virtue atm... I can put him on freedom tonight if you'd like to meet him -
I dont think too many are claiming /SR to be as effective in the arena as it is in zone... There' s a big difference... and they don't do KB in RV.
Lacking Psi resitance is a weakness... All builds and sets have weaknesses. My /SR overcame and made up for what was most lacking with IO's and use of accolades. It's a brute though... so most exp comes from facing Psy/ Blasters, Defenders and Mind/trollers. Neither have ever been something to fear.
Besides... Mind/ doms are FoTM and for good reason, but Doms (and Forts) in general are far from being the only ATs found in a zone. I'm quite satisfied with a set if it makes others log, switch, and/or call for help everytime I show up. -
Yes and that Dom and/or Fort will be rocked by some other AT/Build.
Listing a counter to a set shouldn't be enough justification to say the set is useless.
Besides, much like any other FoTM... most are badly played... or badly built... or both.
Also worth metioning that Psi resistance is pretty easy to come by. -
A lot of people seem to fail with /SR. in PvP
It takes a lot of invesment but /SR is stilll quite effective in zones. I'd aim for around 65-70% defense to melee and range in PvE. This will get DR'ed down to somwhere around 41-43% in PvP. So far it's the most I've been able to get.
My build has somethin like 3 ToD sets, 2 Obliteraton sets, A great immoblie set that gives over 4% melee defense (forget the Name) and some s/l def, a PvP set that gives some melee defense as well, smaller sets with smaller def bonuses here and there. Etc... etc... I've got a lot of defense.
The reason /SR sucks for so many is indeed because they aren't being built right. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the set or anything... but it just seems silly that most of the advice given on the subject is being given by people who either dont play a successful /SR or quit playing one when they couldn't make the set work any longer. -
Hey peoples I have a Fury Of the Gladiator Chance for -Res Proc currently slotted in my DB/ Brute's Typhoon's Edge PBAoE power.
It works well and all but as I get prepeared for a respec I wanted to know how this proc would work in a DoT PbAoE power like One Thousand Cuts.
Simply put. Would this proc affect the target at beginning of its activation (when it hits) and increase the actual damage of the following DoT... or would the damage from 1k Cuts be the same with the -Res chance being applied after the power has been fully cast?
Thanks in advance for the info. -
Am I the only Trapster that took Phase shift and/or slotted Time Bomb?
The timing takes pratice, but the 30 secs you have while in phase shift for me is enough time to lay Trip mine > Time bomb > Trip mine > Posion trap. I phase after aggroing as much as I possibly can and allow mobs to bunch up around me. Laying traps in that order pretty much times the end of Phase shift with the detonation of Time bomb. -
Rules can differ... and are usually agreed upon before many duels begin, from my exp. More often than not though most are lookning for a no insp match I believe.
Either way blues can often buy enough time to kill a squishy before end drain becomes a big problem. Electric Armor can often survive long enough to outlast a few blues though... esp in a duel. It's not s much the -End that becomes a problem for your opponent... it's the -Recovery that has a chance with most attacks.
Geas/Force of Nature and even Conserve Power is where you may run into problems when facing though. -
Quote:My Elec/Elec Brute does quite well in duels because of the drain. It attacks the blue bar the way most attack the green one. I believe though that it has two big advantages over a Tank that would try to acheive the same.Yeah but, couldnt a elec/elec tank drain anything in no time?
1. I have fury to make up for the fact that end draining can require an investment in end draining enhancers in attacks. I don't if know a Tanker could afford the sacrafice.
2. My Mu patron offers 2 of the main powers I use to drain foes: Mu Lightning and Static Discharge. Both are ranged and play a very important part of keeping end from recovering once my opponent starts the whole "not enough end to keep toggles up panic dance." -
What I can agree with to a ceratin extent... as pointed out by many of those who dislike/despise/dissaprove of fiteklubbing... is the level of balance and predictabilty in melee vs melee duels.
Don't get me wrong. I pride my self on making toons to go against the grain/FoTM just to shake things up when I PVP. (I duel often with a DB/SR brute and a Elec/Elec Brute) I'd be a rich man if I had a nickel for everytime someone assumed I would lose to a /Regen Scrapper in a duel and was wrong. However I do wish there could be more debate on the dynamic of these duels. Like, for example IMO I find most duels I have against a Blaster of equal skill while on my Brute to be down right epic. It becomes vey hard to determine a winner from the start. The same would go for many scrapper vs MM duels, and so on.
I think we see Melee set and Melee set and automatically think that equals a balaned 1 v 1 fight when often the "kings of Melee hand to hand scrapper" have the fight won before it starts.
Like I said, just observations that I wish could be discussed by the smart people here... but since the height if intellegence here seems to stop at "Fiteklubbing is bad." I don't see that discusion appening anytime soon. -
Quote:I have not understated the skill reqire to become "good" in arena. I'm sure it requires much skill. My point is that arena PvP is and has always been about settings, rules, timers, limitations, and abundance of insps. Being "good" there may not be because of this for some.... but anyone and everyone who succeeds there does so with these rules in play. If one can brag about being good in the arena. It's no different than a fiteklubber bragging about duels that follow his/or her set of rules. Saying "but, but MY way is Bettorz!" doesn't change this one bit... no matter how much passion and wording is put into one's attempt to prove so.
You dramatically understate the skill required to become good in arena. Arena is 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 8v8, but unfortunetly with the pittance of a pvp we have now, 1v1 arenas are much more common. Therefore, in essence, that comment works against you.
Quote:Sorry, not a joke thread.
The real difference is that the majority of you fight clubbers do not know much about PvP aside from dueling, follow imaginary game rules and codes, and come here to the forums posting misleading information to potential new PvPers. This is a problem because PvP has one foot in the grave right now and people like you aren't helping.
Also, this attitude is not only limited to the forums. Since day 1 of PvP it has been the same old story with you folk. Ya'll QQ about EVERYTHING and start idiotic flame wars in broadcast chat which has, and still does, turn some people away. That's what is really getting old and that's the last thing that PvP needs.
It's quite sad that you feel this way.
You would think that when a community shrinks in size... we would have the common sense to NOT make the community even smaller by ridiculing and creating divides within. As I said earlier. I make and play toons for primarily zone, some for duels, and some for both. All is fun for me because I enjoy PvP.
The only time I see QQing here and in zone it seems, is when one is unable to abide by anothers ruleset, and their egos prevent them from admitting it.... so they instead argue about why their preference s better than the other. It works both ways. Fiteklubber <=> Serious PvPer. -
Quote:
One of the nicest things about the forums is the ignore list, which ensures that I have the last word. .
Yeah.
It's like watching people argue over the quality of steak and burgers without first debating the quality of the cows they come from.
Mac, if you were everywhere at all times on all servers... you'd sound less silly trying to speak as though you've witnessed all there is to PvP in this game. However, because you are not... you just soud like an guy who got really good in the arena, and copy/pasted the tactics to every toon you play. Attack $target! Win! lol
Do keep trying though. -
Quote:I don't get that because it's absurd. The sad part is you probably DO consider it a fact that everyone shares the same preference that you do... and that they are wrong if they don't. It's a very strong belief you have there Mac, but no facts whatsoever. Sorry.
I completely understand that my preference is simply a preference. However, I'm also aware that my preference is the same preference shared by just about everyone who expects anyone to think of them as good and therefore take them seriously both in their play and in their advice and arguments with other players. Nothing will change this. Why don't you get this?
Stop there, because yes, you are. If my point is simply that YOU have a Preference... just like other people have preferences.... and you go on to write tl:dr explanations about why you prefer what you do after I told you I don't care instead of simply saying "Yes, that's true." You are trying to justify your preference. If I've made no arguement to say that Fitekubbing is more fun than x, or just as balanced as y.... yet you still feel the need to give passionate replies about how YOU find FC boring, and how YOU think FC is predictable. You are trying to justify your preference.
Quote:Okay, here are some facts for you. Sonics and Kins are worthless and useless, and here's why:
* Clarity/Increase Density no longer grant mez protection
* Sonic shields give a squishy maybe 3-4% extra resistance, not enough to stop even an extra attack
* SB and IR are irrelevant when travel suppression is unresisted
* The large Sonic bubble no longer provides mez protection and provides no meaningful resistance boost for its caster
* DR means Transfusion and Transference don't drain much endurance per use
* Siphon Power and Siphon Speed don't have any appreciable effect on their target, nor their caster
* Sonic Disruption detoggles when you get mezzed, and since there's no mez protection that means it'll happen often
* Clarity/Increase Density no longer grant mez protection
- What about +perception... is that useless now? Repel resistance? TP resistance? You let your experience show when you say stuff like this. Not every toon that walks into a zone has every gap covered. You consider inspirations and IOs all that's needed to fill the gaps in one's build. I beieve that's why I have teammates.
* Sonic shields give a squishy maybe 3-4% extra resistance, not enough to stop even an extra attack
- Ok, what about Meless toons built on Def? Are they worthless to a /SR Brute? Are the worthless to a MM and his Pets? You have still refused to explain to me why it's ok to invest million/billions into a build to get small percentages of this and that when you make it clear that such small numbers mean nothing in PvP
* SB and IR are irrelevant when travel suppression is unresisted
- So when exactly did +rech go out of style? SB does boost recharge in PvP right? That's useless though. How does the rech buff from SB compare to say a LoTG Rech IO?
- Stop pretending that TS is permanent. Can +Spd benefit me when I'm just chasing after someone? In your world I understand everyone has to take SS/SJ regardless of the AT they're playing so I can see a +Spd buff being usless to many. Your world is not reality though.
* The large Sonic bubble no longer provides mez protection and provides no meaningful resistance boost for its caster
- Dude. NOTHING provides mez protection. Get held with and without your big bubble. Tell me if you notice a difference. Meaningful resistance boost is a relative term these days. Get with the trend. Theres very little that offers huge chunks of buff. Little numbers stack and stack. Bottomline:If more resistance is sought... Sonic Dispersion will add more.
* DR means Transfusion and Transference don't drain much endurance per use
- What?! How broken is that! next you're going to tell me that these powers can't heal you and teammates... or that the part about refilling a blue bar completly for self and teammates doesn't work too. Someone should definately hop on that other toon that can do that for the team off one target... wait.
* Siphon Power and Siphon Speed don't have any appreciable effect on their target, nor their caster
- They do when stacked with other powers that do the same. Or pehaps with another /kin. I'm no number cruncher, but what would the damage debuff be on a target hit with 4 siphon powers and fulcrum shifts. What if that target is hit with posion gas arrow from /TA, and has Darkest night from /Dark cast on them...? I'm sure in your book the only way to prevent a spike is to find a good Healorz or just spike them before they spike you.
* Sonic Disruption detoggles when you get mezzed, and since there's no mez protection that means it'll happen often [/QUOTE]
- So... the advice should be throw a little recharge into the power for when this happens. Not "It's gonna get detoggled a lot so it's worthless!"
- BTW does sonic siphon do the same? Does Liquefy detoggle Mac? It's a good thing /Sonic get 3 powers that they can use to drop resists. A skillfull one can even find ways to make all 3 affect a target. I'm sure however you know of a set that does this better no?
Can I benefit my team, make kills easier, provide mitigation for squshy teammates while playing my /Sonic? Hell yes I can. Would I team with you on my /Sonic? Not a chance. You obviously have no clue as to how to benfit from such a set. Perhaps you need to stick to teammates that spam heals and anyone who can assist you with your "Damage is all there is in PvP" mentality.
Quote:Have you ever watched, or participated in, a melee vs melee duel? I have, both of the fiteklub variety (hey, waitaminute, it's almost like that's how I first started PvP!) and the real variety. Melee vs melee duels under almost any ruleset are boring because you're pitting two nigh-unkillable characters against each other and unless there's inspiration usage the outcome will likely be decided before the fight even starts simply by looking at the participants' powersets.
I am not for or against any style of play Mac. That is the difference you can't seem to see between us. It's why you respond with unessecary points about the state of PvP and your thoughts on what every PvPer should want and aim for. It is also my original point: There is no need to ridicule one group of PvPers for choosing, building, playing, and enjoying one style of PvP... when you are doing the same damn thing. -
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There's little need for me to respond since you seem to make excuses and exceptions thoughout your posts that actually prove my very simple points. I mean you're basically repeating them.
Just because you feel strongly that "your" preference is more sound than anothers doesn't mean it will be prefered by all. It doensn't make you Right. It's simply what YOU prefer. Other peoples preferences vary. Other people feel the same as you do about their preferences. Nothing will change this. Why don't you get this?
I have no desire to see you justify why you prefer what you do. I don't care. Im just pointing out that you as well as most PvPers have specific preferences and reasons why they do what they do to succeed... and how it's funny to see them make fun of others who so the same when those preferences differ.
As I said, I have no problem acceptting facts when I see them, but you haven't produced many in this conversation. Claiming something is boring is not a fact. Words like "worthless," "useless," "fun," and "interesting" aren't factual words. Give me a break. I'll believe you're not stuck on I12 when it's reference stops being included in all of your posts regarding PvP. Yes. It does sound like you're still stuck on I12 PvP and High-End arena -
Quote:Thus the bitterness began... after they (devs) didn't do what some PvPers wanted them to do. Yes, I've heard the story before. I was also around at the time. Such a thing can also affect whether certain changes are acomplished.Way to completely miss the mark as well as any of the facts surrounding what I said. During the I13 beta, there was quite a bit of feedback from existing PvPers on why the proposed changes were not going to accomplish the changes the devs wanted to make, and some even offered suggestions to actually accomplish those changes. For the most part, feedback was ignored.
Quote:Please find me a "group of PvPers that requires a certain build, certain powers and excel at PvP only under certain rules." In fact, I'll pay your sub for the rest of the time you play the game if you can do that. Now, here are the facts (listen, I know this is hard for you):
Instead of pointing out that certain builds, powers and rules are required *to* excel at PvP, I misworded that statement and it came out as PvPers in general requiring each. At least, I see how it could have been read as so. Regardless, I find at the very least, in arena you have neither the aid or threat of personal temp powers so one's varied successes through each setting in arena would always be victim to such a rule or dependancy. Not to mention that basic settings (match timer/match type/map/etc...) mean that pretty much 100% of arena matches are bound by more than a few limitations and rules. Open zone anything goes which, is indeed a rule, while fiteklubbers often follow rules as restricting as the arena or more compared to open zone. Bottomline: If you can laugh and refuse one set of rules and one style of PvP... you are admitting that you have a preference and/or dependancy on another.
Quote:Why do the serious PvPers laugh at fiteklubbers? It's quite simple - the fiteklubbers are only limiting themselves by not being open to the variety of tactics that makes PvP interesting. No-inspiration matches are boring and predictable because it's usually clear from the very beginning who will win. Melee vs melee duels (regardless of the settings, or who's playing the characters, really) are just boring because it's two big bags of HP with self-heals hitting each other until someone dies.
Get wrecked.
Like many, I moved a few zone PvP toons to Freedom where the action is. I also started making melee toons for zone and duels on Virtue, where the civility remains. Fiteklubbing, from what I can tell from experience.... is a hybrid style of play. While arena promotes endless options for repeatable matches and open zones have fixed limitations that remain the same 24/7, both encourage the use of all that is avalible. Fiteklubbing often requires the agreement to go without even though *it* may be available... whether it's inspiration when in zone or extreme kiting when in arena. (for example) Silly to some but nonetheless requires as much commitment, knowledge, and investment as builds that wish to excel in other styles of play.
Disagreement/Disaproval is simply proof of either ignorance due to nonparticipation, or admittance of envy/jealousy, due to a lack of ability to follow other sets of rules.
Get Wrecked Mac....? No. You get better. If your intention is to become a spokesperson for the PvP community, then start doing so without being stuck on I12 and a diminished High-End Arena PvP class of 2008. -
Quote:No, the options in the arena (no TS, no DR, no HD) were added because the zone variant (TS and HD on) sucks and serious PvPers called the devs on it."
Unless I'm mistaken that's called QQing.... which kinda proves the following point.
You've got one group of PvPers that require a certain build, certain powers and excel at PvP only under certain rules LoL'ing constantly at another group that requires pretty much the same.
Silly me, I rolled toons for both. I'd consider Freedom to be the abilty to do just that.
This Serious PvPer vs. Fiteklubber business is all quite funny.
It's like watching people argue over the quality of steak and burgers without first debating the quality of the cows they come from. -
Quote:This.In my opinion the only reason I think people tend not to get into PVP anymore is because of the whole air of negativity surrounding it.
PvP is fun for me because it's P V P. Nothing more, nothing less.
If they made major changes to any Pro sport... those that were in it for the love of the game would continue to thrive, get better, and enjoy playing their game. Those that were playing for other reasons would probably quit if the changes weren't in their favor, and find a job where they could criticize the "new game" at every oppourtunity. Welcome to the CoX PvP forums. -
TP Foe still works well for a /Trapster, it just requires more work to pull it off now.
I've had many sucesses with my Rad/Traps corruptor (on Virtue and now Freedom) from using TP Foe. Here are some best practices I found:
- Use Web Grenade First! The -jump effect forces your target to the ground and onto traps. This is quite solid against any foe without Superspeed. I know, it's not terribly easy to pull off, but the effect lasts for 15 seconds... It's proven to be more than enough time for me.
-Make sure you've thown caltrops over your mines. Believe it or not, a stealthed/superspeeding opponent will not set traps off right away. Caltrops is auto hit and immediately supresses stealth as well as offering a bit of -jump and -fly over a small area.
- Do NOT Teleport your target directly onto traps. As stated earlier, this is how you waste 2-5 min of trap laying. TP your opponent above them. If your lucky the phase period can wear off by the time they hit the ground. Hovering and TPing your target below you after they've been webnaded will send them straight down onto a bed full of traps.
- Your enviroment is your friend. Web grenade is the key. If your target can't fly or jump... find spots that allow you to take full advantage of this. TP a web grenaded SS/SJ'er into a wading pool in RV and lol as they panic and run around in circles setting off traps and destroying themselves. Even corners can be a perfect spot to TP a foe if you have pets/teammates to form a blockcade around it. I guess my point, from my experience is that now... it's not about tping foes into mines, it's about tping a foe to a spot where running into mines is their only option.
I'd rather not jump into the argument of whether all this requires skill. I can say that it does seem to require more work than before. I've had to help several people with it in game due to them wasting my own traps (argh!) and/or after watching them waste their own. Usually their responses are along the lines of "wishing it was easy like before..." -
I don't know. I thought many of the changes followed a clear trend.
With ED, we witnessed huge uproars about SOs giving off small percentages once a cap was reached, only to see IOs introduced and offer similar small percentages as bonuses... but no complaints there because you can multiply those small percentages times 5.
We saw DR introduced and heard the same type uproars, yet the response was not to stack the buffs and debuffs with differnt ATs and toons.... it was to stop playing support. I don't see how anyone can prove support is useless by not playing them. Of course now we hear talk of a new PvP zone, new sets, more proliferation, a new AT(s), an additional 10 slots, the ability to switch sides... but the because the PvP playerbase at the time knew so much more than the Devs did about these things (not)... speculation of their intent and purpose of the changes turned into facts here on the forums, and the actions of many as a result lead to a very contagious rage about a work in progress (PvP revamp)
I'm not a numbers guy. I'm a playstyle-fun factor-tactics guys. I enjoy PvP simply because it's more interesting than fighting AI. I like to see what works and what doesn't. I made Tp/Hover work and work extremely well in PvP simply because even in PvP, I can't stand the look many of my toons have with of SS/SJ. Also because I like to go against the grain and find counters to the norm. I'd think it'd be nice to see group fly stacked above the -fly found in webnade and entangle arrow, just to see a mobile defense floating above as bait. It'd be interesting to see what 6+ /Sheld ATs would be like fighting as one unit and having all taken grant cover and phalanx (sp?) fighting. Where are the Ice/ supuerteams? where are the Earth/Stone superteams? Wheres that small PvP VG that consists of only Merc MM/traps and Merc/TA MMs? I think the -damage debuffs found /TA, /Kin, /Traps, and /Dark are quite underrated but dangerously effective when stacked on hard hitting foes. My /SR Brute and my MMs would kill to have a /sonic around in RV to hit me with those shields and toggle resist debuff. My traps/ would kill to have friendly /Kin nearby and keep me from being TP'ed and Repelled. Oh, and don't get me started on frostwork. I love that buff... who needs HP accolades when a /Cold is around to put you at the cap?
Sorry. There I go again. I'm not gonna go on to create another long winded post so I'll just say this. I strongly believe that the Devs of this game have to balance around scenarios that we can't even dream of yet. I also believe that those of us vet PvPers that remain have a slight obligation to those with little to no experience in PvP to explain PvP in way that makes it appealing for them... instead of trashing it every chance we get beacuse of a change that happend a year ago. I enjoy PvP. I want others to as well. First we have to step back, let some of that pain go, and remember that we're all doing this for fun. -
Quote:Heh, that explains the bitterness no doubt.In fact I believe it was Mac that came up with a proposal of changes and gave it to the Dev's that would solve every single problem that they were trying to solve without actually wrecking pvp.
So if I understand correctly, the arena folks and all the cookie cutter builds and FoTM ness went to closed beta, (which I was also in btw) and convinced themselves that they would know what changes needed to be made for ALL pvpers , right?
I am to believe that the plans and changes that you all proposed would have made PvP for ALL better, and not just better for the elite pvpers? I'm sorry but based of the egos I've encountered in-game and based on the attitudes and reactions after I13 by this group of know-it-alls, I find this very hard to believe.
I'm more convinced now than I was before that I13 isn't broken at all. It appears or at least sounds like people just quit because they didn't get their way. It's understandable... but quite petty IMO. Especially since now those who didn't quit can only gripe about how I13 isn't I12. Everyone was for the change until the change happened and didn't include all the changes that were bulletpointed on some proposed list. Why didn't it include ANY of those changes????? Were they really great ideas? Are you sure? Common sense has the answer I believe... even if one's ego won't allow it to be revealed. I believe the other part to this is that the changes did include some propsed by casual and not so casual PvPers right? Ouch! I feel the pain but seriously, this was almost 3 issuses ago?
You want me to be convinced that because I've PvPed for the last 3 years probably 90% of the time... because I PvP more than the Devs, that I would know better about what changes should be made to make PvP better for you and every other PvPer? Perhaps only those who arena know best? Maybe not, maybe only what you'd consider the really, really good PvPers know whats best for all of us?
If I'm not being clear I'll say this. It's a matter of perspective. I believe Castle and the others have a much bigger window to look out of than we do. One that sees the present and the future of CoX. It's one thing to believe you can offer help and provide feedback better than the next guy... it's a completely other thing to believe you actually know better than the folks behind the game. Seriously? Yeah I was serious.
From what you posted It just seems like a group of PvPers went to closed beta thinking they would get whatever they wanted because the Devs were finally ready to show some love to PvP... Only to realize that they were just there as fillers for the Devs to collect data and what not. Yeah If I set my self up like that I'd be bitter too... shame . -
Quote:Um, I pvping right now with 12 or so.... It's only take one other person to PvP ya know. Is there a standard I don't know of? Are you stuck on your lolarena of olden days? Every point you can make is a comparison of before and now... LET IT GO. At this point you sound about as silly as someone complaing about the fact they can't have more than one set of imps... or someone who stills plays but whines about ED. Just because you don't want to admit to my points doesn't mean I haven't made them quite clear. 3% is useless from a support toon to offer but worth 100+ million as an IO that does the same? That's not even close to logic.Just responding to this because it's the only point worth even bothering with - you're obviously stuck on some belabored idea that everything's better now so I'm not even going to try and argue. Problem is you're wrong - if the new PvP is that much better, where are all the people it was supposed to bring in, and why have the whiners not stopped whining?
The part I quoted (that some of the changes were made to limit the skill spread) is true and I can copy and paste PMs to prove it, though I'd rather not at the moment. In short, one of the biggest reasons the PvP changes were made is because a team of seasoned PvPers would steamroll a team of newbies (which should happen by any kind of sane logic).
I've made no statements to say that I13 is better or worse so please don't put me in that camp. PvP is PvP. I like PvP more than PvE. I could care less about the changes made to the PvP system... Why? Because I'm smart enough to firgure things out on all my toons without having to delete and reroll every 2 issues just to stroke my Ego back to it's previous level of uberness.
Based on your opinion all th people left cause it was no longer fun, right...? Why did it stop being fun...?
Face it... Everyone and their mama had an opinion of how to fix PvP. I was there. I remember. Countless threads about PvP needin' a fixin'. I never made one single complaint about the old system... I just read and shook my head and thought the same thing I do now: Some folks just don't get it. From what I remember, after I13 most PvPers felt burnt by the Devs' changes because their precious ideas didn't make it into the system... pity. So they formed another little club to protest and whine and protest and whine.... then they all started shouting about CoH going to the americas and and how they'll lose so much money from the 3% of CoX players that PvP. They threatened to quit for about 3 months... when the Dev's didn't give in... they ragequitteded.... the end.
Now we have those who can't let I12 go.... and thus the cycle shall continue. -
I do too, but I'm quite easy.
I honestly feel quite sad for those who ragequitted.... and those who just HAD to go and roll yet another FoTM toon after their much loved FoTM toon got expired. So so sad.
Most of all I'm sadden by the tearful stories I've read about people losing online friends and having no one left to play with anymore. It appears to have caused a lot of hurt, anger, and bitterness for many PvPers.
Hey! At least now with AE, Players can make a custom arc with allies named after their dear dear PvP buddies from long ago... and get that old I12 feeling again as they move aronud unsurpressed with no DR, Heal decay, etc...
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Oh, I thought for sure that would cheer someone up... Sorry if that made the pain worse. -
Mac, you did a terrific job of proving many of my points whether you realize or not. So many followed the logic you do and it lead PvP to the state it's in now. As an elite PvPer in this game as I no doubt you consider yourself to be, you should know that such logic and such a mentality is what crippled PvP more so than any one developer. There is a line that lies between blame and responsiblity... many see the two as the same but they are not. Blame the devs all you want for the changes they introduced indeed caused many unwanted adjustsments to be made, but they are not the ones responsible for the state of things. That my friend is called a cop-out.
Quote:Forgive me, but this is borderline dumb and quite obviously an emotional opinion. PvPers had no choice but to roll FoTM cookie cuter builds because all the AT's were supposedly made the same in PvP? The Devs wanted to make all ATs the same???? No. The choice was either step back... look around and figure out how to make the new system work as intended... or look at the numbers and roll whatever would let you do what you were doing before the changes were introduced. You argue that when everything is supposedly the same... every small advantage helps, but the small advatage support toons now offer is worthless? Please. You argue in circles. Most of your opinion and attempts at logic has been formed by CoX forum "wannabe facts" simply because they've been repeated so much for a almost a year. Your logic (and many others') says that the Devs just up and one day said... "Hey, Let's ruin PvP so we can and lose money... YeAh!!!"The PvPers weren't the ones who made the changes. As such they have no choice but to start using the builds that are better - supposedly the changes were to eliminate the complaints about this power or that power or this strategy or that build, and to essentially make all powersets and ATs the same, but we know that didn't happen. There are less viable builds now thanks to DR, DPA changes, free base resists, the mez changes, and travel suppression. People go with the "cookie cutter" builds that do the most damage because when everything's supposedly the same, anything that gives even a small advantage is a necessity to stay competitive
Dude. Peope Go with cookie cutter builds because it's the easiest way to please their PvP egos. Of course no one will admit it. They use numbers, mids, percentages, etc... and become very skilled in making cookie cutter builds so they can be above the rest... or like I said... so they can have little to no dependancy on other ATs.
Quote:People "got" that the rules changed. They also "got" that the new rules dumbed down the PvP experience in an attempt to level the playing field (it helped, but a seasoned PvPer will still roll a newbie any day) by removing the speed and skill aspects of the game. People that didn't like that left, and who can blame them? The people that are still around are disgruntled for obvious reasons, but we've made do the best we can - by rerolling our characters into builds that are useful for the new ruleset
Quote:Support toons and buffers need to be stacked? What? Many external buffs get hit by DR under only one application, let alone stacked - the only real exceptions here are damage buffs, and def/res buffs to melee ATs (who don't need those buffs in the first place) and squishies running defense-based shields. My Therm sure is glad that his shields add a whopping 3% resists to his teammates. Don't get me wrong - I'm really quite happy to waste endurance to make people look pretty. People stopped playing their support toons (or just respec'd them into damage builds) because damage is all that really matters anymore. Def/res buffs do not make a meaningful contribution to squishy survivability thanks to DR - you'd be better off spamming attacks during the time you'd normally be buffing since you'll be able to damage spam a target until they can't heal anymore.
Your focus, as I pointed out in my first post seems to be about comparisions of what support toons did before and what they did after.... instead whether they are still the best at supporting a team.... but I'm certain you consider blasters better at protecting squishies right.... they're so good at it with all that damage.
Quote:What other "mitigation and control" techniques? Only other ones I can think of are disruption - taunting, webnading, or perma-suppressing someone via Rad/Storm/Dark/etc toggles. As of right now, mez and KB are the best mitigation/control/disruption techniques, bar none. A good team will mez their spike target and that target will be dead before the mez wears off, or hit their target with Levitate/Lift/Power Push/Force Bolt and the target will be dead before they can get back up. If you're a control class in PvP right now you're either running disruption with the occasional mez/kb (hello, Controllers) or running ranged DPS with the occasional mez/kb (hello, Dominators). Where's the skill?
Quote:Please, tell me: what team combinations are you thinking of? At any rate, it doesn't really matter, because I13 removed the necessity of rolling FotMs or relying on certain team makeups, right? Right? Guys... anyone?
YMMV. Just like in PvE some people can't cope without Healers there to give them the green stuff. I can understand to a certain extent how I13 ruined the game for these peoples.
Quote:Heals and resistance buffs are important in PvP because a well-built PvP character will hit you, and you need that additional survivability. Now resistance buffs get DRd so a squishy will never have more than 40-45% resistance, and if a spike team just keeps up a skill-less damage spam, the spike target will die unless they can phase or get lucky and get away (good luck with that against a competent spike team considering how travel suppression now works). You seem to miss the point that between DR on buffs and heal decay, it really is more effective to focus on damage and just kill the other team before they kill you. Of course, having one or two people with heals will help a target survive maybe a few seconds longer - but I was doing an 8v8 KB on Freedom the other night on my Therm, and there was one situation where we were able to keep a spike target alive thanks to our heals, whereas in the zone/heal decay on scenario he would have died multiple times over.
Quote:I13 wasn't about making sure AT roles were needed, it was about making all the ATs feel the same in terms of damage and survivability (which failed spectacularly, btw). Hell, Castle even commented on that and said regarding AT normalization "it didn't feel wrong to me so I went with it." In short, most buffs aside from damage buffs are now worthless, Sonic and Kin have no place whatsoever in a team PvP lineup and FF isn't much better off (it's there for Force Bubble and Force Bolt mostly).
PvPers are an adaptive type - as rules and powers change, they adapt by going to whatever is best at the moment, and you'll notice PvPers have made a shift toward damage dealing. This leaves two possibilities - either the people who write the code got it wrong, or the people who actually use that code every day almost all their in-game time got it wrong. I'm going to venture out on a limb and say it wasn't the players, and I'm betting most of those players would agree with me.
/agree to disagee
Quote:Don't be dense - teaming in a PvP environment is still very much preferred to soloing. However, the reasons for it have shifted from teammates providing buffs, heals, and disruption to teammates providing extra damage for spikes, KB, and the occasional spot heal.
Quote:I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make about people coming to the boards and whining, asking about changes. The same people that whined about stuff being broken before still come to the boards and whine about stuff. Only thing that's changed is what's being whined about, and there's often more of it.
Quote:This was a bit long-winded, but I'm kind of sick of people saying "OMG THIS PvP IS SO MUCH BETTER AND THE ONLY REASON PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD."
Beleive me I don't waste time with "Better or Worse" in a game like this... I PvPed from issues 4 - 12 with the same smile and enjoyemnt that I get today from PvPing. My overall point has less to do with bad players and more to do with good players that simply got it wrong, dragged the rest of us along for the ride, jumped ship when that didn't work... and then turned ther backs on those of us who still find it fun. -
I'm sorry, which part was wrong?
You post was quite short, and the summary of PvP in your sig seems to include little to no sense what so ever...
Let's face it, the Devs of this game aren't allowed to step in and say " Hey, PvP this way cause that's how it's designed."
I think it's more likely that we got it wrong.... than they did. I'm sure to you and many others however, that's not the case... beacuse the people who play the game are always much more knowledgeable about what needs to be done than the people that design it right??
If Castle made the changes and was happy with them... it should of been a "Oh? How does it work?" moment... Instead of a "Why doesn't this work anymore!?" moment... this is probably the attitude that lead you to yor current opinion of PvP no?
One attitude leads to new ideas, new perspectives, possible new builds, new guides, training recruiting, fun, and all that stuff while the other attitude leads to moar QQ, FoTM dependancy, (moreso than before I12) Ragequitting, and profound and constructive comments like:
Do feel free to quote my earlier post if I stated something so off th wall... I don't mind being wrong. I'm just curious as to which part you found to be so far from the truth.