Dahjee

Rules can differ... and are usually agreed upon before many duels begin, from my exp. More often than not though most are lookning for a no insp match I believe.

Either way blues can often buy enough time to kill a squishy before end drain becomes a big problem. Electric Armor can often survive long enough to outlast a few blues though... esp in a duel. It's not s much the -End that becomes a problem for your opponent... it's the -Recovery that has a chance with most attacks.

Geas/Force of Nature and even Conserve Power is where you may run into problems when facing though.

My Elec/Elec Brute does quite well in duels because of the drain. It attacks the blue bar the way most attack the green one. I believe though that it has two big advantages over a Tank that would try to acheive the same.

1. I have fury to make up for the fact that end draining can require an investment in end draining enhancers in attacks. I don't if know a Tanker could afford the sacrafice.

2. My Mu patron offers 2 of the main powers I use to drain foes: Mu Lightning and Static Discharge. Both are ranged and play a very important part of keeping end from recovering once my opponent starts the whole "not enough end to keep toggles up panic dance."

I have not understated the skill reqire to become "good" in arena. I'm sure it requires much skill. My point is that arena PvP is and has always been about settings, rules, timers, limitations, and abundance of insps. Being "good" there may not be because of this for some.... but anyone and everyone who succeeds there does so with these rules in play. If one can brag about being good in the arena. It's no different than a fiteklubber bragging about duels that follow his/or her set of rules. Saying "but, but MY way is Bettorz!" doesn't change this one bit... no matter how much passion and wording is put into one's attempt to prove so.



It's quite sad that you feel this way.

You would think that when a community shrinks in size... we would have the common sense to NOT make the community even smaller by ridiculing and creating divides within. As I said earlier. I make and play toons for primarily zone, some for duels, and some for both. All is fun for me because I enjoy PvP.

The only time I see QQing here and in zone it seems, is when one is unable to abide by anothers ruleset, and their egos prevent them from admitting it.... so they instead argue about why their preference s better than the other. It works both ways. Fiteklubber <=> Serious PvPer.

Yeah.

It's like watching people argue over the quality of steak and burgers without first debating the quality of the cows they come from.

Mac, if you were everywhere at all times on all servers... you'd sound less silly trying to speak as though you've witnessed all there is to PvP in this game. However, because you are not... you just soud like an guy who got really good in the arena, and copy/pasted the tactics to every toon you play. Attack $target! Win! lol

Do keep trying though.

I don't get that because it's absurd. The sad part is you probably DO consider it a fact that everyone shares the same preference that you do... and that they are wrong if they don't. It's a very strong belief you have there Mac, but no facts whatsoever. Sorry.


Stop there, because yes, you are. If my point is simply that YOU have a Preference... just like other people have preferences.... and you go on to write tl:dr explanations about why you prefer what you do after I told you I don't care instead of simply saying "Yes, that's true." You are trying to justify your preference. If I've made no arguement to say that Fitekubbing is more fun than x, or just as balanced as y.... yet you still feel the need to give passionate replies about how YOU find FC boring, and how YOU think FC is predictable. You are trying to justify your preference.


The only fact here is that these set are worthless to YOU... because you only consider certain things beneficial to your style of play. Lets see:

* Clarity/Increase Density no longer grant mez protection
- What about +perception... is that useless now? Repel resistance? TP resistance? You let your experience show when you say stuff like this. Not every toon that walks into a zone has every gap covered. You consider inspirations and IOs all that's needed to fill the gaps in one's build. I beieve that's why I have teammates.

* Sonic shields give a squishy maybe 3-4% extra resistance, not enough to stop even an extra attack
- Ok, what about Meless toons built on Def? Are they worthless to a /SR Brute? Are the worthless to a MM and his Pets? You have still refused to explain to me why it's ok to invest million/billions into a build to get small percentages of this and that when you make it clear that such small numbers mean nothing in PvP

* SB and IR are irrelevant when travel suppression is unresisted
- So when exactly did +rech go out of style? SB does boost recharge in PvP right? That's useless though. How does the rech buff from SB compare to say a LoTG Rech IO?
- Stop pretending that TS is permanent. Can +Spd benefit me when I'm just chasing after someone? In your world I understand everyone has to take SS/SJ regardless of the AT they're playing so I can see a +Spd buff being usless to many. Your world is not reality though.

* The large Sonic bubble no longer provides mez protection and provides no meaningful resistance boost for its caster
- Dude. NOTHING provides mez protection. Get held with and without your big bubble. Tell me if you notice a difference. Meaningful resistance boost is a relative term these days. Get with the trend. Theres very little that offers huge chunks of buff. Little numbers stack and stack. Bottomline:If more resistance is sought... Sonic Dispersion will add more.

* DR means Transfusion and Transference don't drain much endurance per use
- What?! How broken is that! next you're going to tell me that these powers can't heal you and teammates... or that the part about refilling a blue bar completly for self and teammates doesn't work too. Someone should definately hop on that other toon that can do that for the team off one target... wait.

* Siphon Power and Siphon Speed don't have any appreciable effect on their target, nor their caster
- They do when stacked with other powers that do the same. Or pehaps with another /kin. I'm no number cruncher, but what would the damage debuff be on a target hit with 4 siphon powers and fulcrum shifts. What if that target is hit with posion gas arrow from /TA, and has Darkest night from /Dark cast on them...? I'm sure in your book the only way to prevent a spike is to find a good Healorz or just spike them before they spike you.

* Sonic Disruption detoggles when you get mezzed, and since there's no mez protection that means it'll happen often [/QUOTE]
- So... the advice should be throw a little recharge into the power for when this happens. Not "It's gonna get detoggled a lot so it's worthless!"
- BTW does sonic siphon do the same? Does Liquefy detoggle Mac? It's a good thing /Sonic get 3 powers that they can use to drop resists. A skillfull one can even find ways to make all 3 affect a target. I'm sure however you know of a set that does this better no?

Can I benefit my team, make kills easier, provide mitigation for squshy teammates while playing my /Sonic? Hell yes I can. Would I team with you on my /Sonic? Not a chance. You obviously have no clue as to how to benfit from such a set. Perhaps you need to stick to teammates that spam heals and anyone who can assist you with your "Damage is all there is in PvP" mentality.

Bordom is what happens when there's no one to PvP with because 6 people have been ganking the same 2 people repeatedly and they leave. Fiteklubbing as I see it, is a nice alternative to doing nothing while in a PvP zone. On freedom, I have no need or desire to do 1 vs 1 duels because there's enough action for zone play more often than not. As I mention I rolled a couple melee toons and built them to be able to duel because on Virtue... it's not terribly uncommon to have an entire zone realize that for the time being (until more people show up) it makes more sense to be civil and challenge others to 1 v1 and 2 v 2 duels so that everyone gets to actullly PvP instead of KSing, QQing, Ganking and/or getting ganked repeatedly.


I am not for or against any style of play Mac. That is the difference you can't seem to see between us. It's why you respond with unessecary points about the state of PvP and your thoughts on what every PvPer should want and aim for. It is also my original point: There is no need to ridicule one group of PvPers for choosing, building, playing, and enjoying one style of PvP... when you are doing the same damn thing.

Don't let the smoove taste fool ya Black. I was PvPing the day I4 hit beta. I've been PvPing ever since. I know plenty.

Thus the bitterness began... after they (devs) didn't do what some PvPers wanted them to do. Yes, I've heard the story before. I was also around at the time. Such a thing can also affect whether certain changes are acomplished.

Mac, please. There are just as many "let's go arenaz then!" whiners in open zone as there are "Duel Meh!" whiners in an open zone. Why even speak of an exception if the situation required for it doesn't exist anymore? I call BS. You can say arena goers "prefer" this setting or that setting, but you know as well as I know that you and many others wouldn't begin an arena duel unless you approved of the settings/rules. Same behavior I have noticed from some Fiteklubbers.You want to pretend people don't "build" for SC, RV, zone, or arena? Do you think now that FoTMs aren't depended on by groups of people throughout the PvP community? Did you all of a sudden realize that there's no such thing as a useless AT set/set combo, or of a useless power, when excellence in a particular enviroment is sought? I don't spend much time on the boards but I'm sure there aren't many clicks between here and posts that suggest otherwise. When you actually spit facts on the matter... I'll happily agree. Opinions based on facts however, are still opinions.

Instead of pointing out that certain builds, powers and rules are required *to* excel at PvP, I misworded that statement and it came out as PvPers in general requiring each. At least, I see how it could have been read as so. Regardless, I find at the very least, in arena you have neither the aid or threat of personal temp powers so one's varied successes through each setting in arena would always be victim to such a rule or dependancy. Not to mention that basic settings (match timer/match type/map/etc...) mean that pretty much 100% of arena matches are bound by more than a few limitations and rules. Open zone anything goes which, is indeed a rule, while fiteklubbers often follow rules as restricting as the arena or more compared to open zone. Bottomline: If you can laugh and refuse one set of rules and one style of PvP... you are admitting that you have a preference and/or dependancy on another.

Again. I think the whole thing is funny because it's just a matter of saying "I can't win that way." However it seems that it's easier to some to simply LoL and make threads to cover up the fact. I find it ironic considering the OP, that many posting here laugh at something the know very little about.

Like many, I moved a few zone PvP toons to Freedom where the action is. I also started making melee toons for zone and duels on Virtue, where the civility remains. Fiteklubbing, from what I can tell from experience.... is a hybrid style of play. While arena promotes endless options for repeatable matches and open zones have fixed limitations that remain the same 24/7, both encourage the use of all that is avalible. Fiteklubbing often requires the agreement to go without even though *it* may be available... whether it's inspiration when in zone or extreme kiting when in arena. (for example) Silly to some but nonetheless requires as much commitment, knowledge, and investment as builds that wish to excel in other styles of play.

Disagreement/Disaproval is simply proof of either ignorance due to nonparticipation, or admittance of envy/jealousy, due to a lack of ability to follow other sets of rules.

Get Wrecked Mac....? No. You get better. If your intention is to become a spokesperson for the PvP community, then start doing so without being stuck on I12 and a diminished High-End Arena PvP class of 2008.

Unless I'm mistaken that's called QQing.... which kinda proves the following point.

You've got one group of PvPers that require a certain build, certain powers and excel at PvP only under certain rules LoL'ing constantly at another group that requires pretty much the same.

Silly me, I rolled toons for both. I'd consider Freedom to be the abilty to do just that.

This Serious PvPer vs. Fiteklubber business is all quite funny.

It's like watching people argue over the quality of steak and burgers without first debating the quality of the cows they come from.

This.

PvP is fun for me because it's P V P. Nothing more, nothing less.

If they made major changes to any Pro sport... those that were in it for the love of the game would continue to thrive, get better, and enjoy playing their game. Those that were playing for other reasons would probably quit if the changes weren't in their favor, and find a job where they could criticize the "new game" at every oppourtunity. Welcome to the CoX PvP forums.

Heh, that explains the bitterness no doubt.

So if I understand correctly, the arena folks and all the cookie cutter builds and FoTM ness went to closed beta, (which I was also in btw) and convinced themselves that they would know what changes needed to be made for ALL pvpers , right?

I am to believe that the plans and changes that you all proposed would have made PvP for ALL better, and not just better for the elite pvpers? I'm sorry but based of the egos I've encountered in-game and based on the attitudes and reactions after I13 by this group of know-it-alls, I find this very hard to believe.

I'm more convinced now than I was before that I13 isn't broken at all. It appears or at least sounds like people just quit because they didn't get their way. It's understandable... but quite petty IMO. Especially since now those who didn't quit can only gripe about how I13 isn't I12. Everyone was for the change until the change happened and didn't include all the changes that were bulletpointed on some proposed list. Why didn't it include ANY of those changes????? Were they really great ideas? Are you sure? Common sense has the answer I believe... even if one's ego won't allow it to be revealed. I believe the other part to this is that the changes did include some propsed by casual and not so casual PvPers right? Ouch! I feel the pain but seriously, this was almost 3 issuses ago?

You want me to be convinced that because I've PvPed for the last 3 years probably 90% of the time... because I PvP more than the Devs, that I would know better about what changes should be made to make PvP better for you and every other PvPer? Perhaps only those who arena know best? Maybe not, maybe only what you'd consider the really, really good PvPers know whats best for all of us?

If I'm not being clear I'll say this. It's a matter of perspective. I believe Castle and the others have a much bigger window to look out of than we do. One that sees the present and the future of CoX. It's one thing to believe you can offer help and provide feedback better than the next guy... it's a completely other thing to believe you actually know better than the folks behind the game. Seriously? Yeah I was serious.

From what you posted It just seems like a group of PvPers went to closed beta thinking they would get whatever they wanted because the Devs were finally ready to show some love to PvP... Only to realize that they were just there as fillers for the Devs to collect data and what not. Yeah If I set my self up like that I'd be bitter too... shame .

Um, I pvping right now with 12 or so.... It's only take one other person to PvP ya know. Is there a standard I don't know of? Are you stuck on your lolarena of olden days? Every point you can make is a comparison of before and now... LET IT GO. At this point you sound about as silly as someone complaing about the fact they can't have more than one set of imps... or someone who stills plays but whines about ED. Just because you don't want to admit to my points doesn't mean I haven't made them quite clear. 3% is useless from a support toon to offer but worth 100+ million as an IO that does the same? That's not even close to logic.

I've made no statements to say that I13 is better or worse so please don't put me in that camp. PvP is PvP. I like PvP more than PvE. I could care less about the changes made to the PvP system... Why? Because I'm smart enough to firgure things out on all my toons without having to delete and reroll every 2 issues just to stroke my Ego back to it's previous level of uberness.

Based on your opinion all th people left cause it was no longer fun, right...? Why did it stop being fun...?

Face it... Everyone and their mama had an opinion of how to fix PvP. I was there. I remember. Countless threads about PvP needin' a fixin'. I never made one single complaint about the old system... I just read and shook my head and thought the same thing I do now: Some folks just don't get it. From what I remember, after I13 most PvPers felt burnt by the Devs' changes because their precious ideas didn't make it into the system... pity. So they formed another little club to protest and whine and protest and whine.... then they all started shouting about CoH going to the americas and and how they'll lose so much money from the 3% of CoX players that PvP. They threatened to quit for about 3 months... when the Dev's didn't give in... they ragequitteded.... the end.


Now we have those who can't let I12 go.... and thus the cycle shall continue.

Forgive me, but this is borderline dumb and quite obviously an emotional opinion. PvPers had no choice but to roll FoTM cookie cuter builds because all the AT's were supposedly made the same in PvP? The Devs wanted to make all ATs the same???? No. The choice was either step back... look around and figure out how to make the new system work as intended... or look at the numbers and roll whatever would let you do what you were doing before the changes were introduced. You argue that when everything is supposedly the same... every small advantage helps, but the small advatage support toons now offer is worthless? Please. You argue in circles. Most of your opinion and attempts at logic has been formed by CoX forum "wannabe facts" simply because they've been repeated so much for a almost a year. Your logic (and many others') says that the Devs just up and one day said... "Hey, Let's ruin PvP so we can and lose money... YeAh!!!"

Dude. Peope Go with cookie cutter builds because it's the easiest way to please their PvP egos. Of course no one will admit it. They use numbers, mids, percentages, etc... and become very skilled in making cookie cutter builds so they can be above the rest... or like I said... so they can have little to no dependancy on other ATs.

Was that a Castle quote? Did he say he was duming down PvP? Or was that what the PvP community just thought and expressed on the forums so it made it true?? Does a good build = a good player? How do you know if you're good if you have to reroll a toon to whatever FoTM rises to the top?? Oh wait that's right PvPers had no choice right?

Yeah, I feel ya.... and how much is that unique IO that adds 3% resist to all selling for right now? Oh that's different right? It's perfectly fine to farm and grind for IO sets that will add 3.75% defense... 3.25% resist to a single damage type right? LOL but to get that extra from another toon is worthless? Right? I am starting to become overwhelmed by your logic. I wonder why my /Sonic troller does well on teams?? Oh, maybe because it has liquefy, sonic siphon and sonic disruption.... and resist shields for that /SR scrapper that keeps getting wrecked. (just for example) The role of support toons changed in I13 to make all support needed in some way or fashion. The role they are now required to fill is not only misunderstood, but also underrated... simply because before I13 only the staple powers of most sets were wanted, and after I13 many have the option to provide themselves with those same buffs. Maybe some of the people that quit playing with their support toons did so because they did not like the fact that spamming 1 or 2 powers was no longer enough to be considered good/effective. Maybe it was because they couldn't count to 8. I don't disagree that damage is an effective means of mitigating damage in PvP. I just think it is better left to the ATs degined to do it... and in part they should use this to protect their squishy teammates... I know, yeah right.

Your focus, as I pointed out in my first post seems to be about comparisions of what support toons did before and what they did after.... instead whether they are still the best at supporting a team.... but I'm certain you consider blasters better at protecting squishies right.... they're so good at it with all that damage.


I've found that my stalker buddies are mighty grateful when I tell tham that $target is no loger at the perception cap (-percept) but I'm sure we skip those powers... I have a great time trapping running blasters and scrappers and tankers in the wading pools in RV (-Jump) I pair with a Dom who also took flight/tp and we ground folks (-fly) and send them to teammates below quite easily. If I'm playing a control AT, I'm there to basically to the same job I do in PvE. When a spike $target is called, I focus on the opponents that are preventing that spike from happening... I may use tp foe, I may cage them, Heck with my Grav/ dom I can mitigate 10+ heroes at once with wormhole and D-shift. The specific techniques you seem to be in the dark about differ from set to set. I have no desire to pick my brain and list every single one I've tried or would try.

If you have to ask.... then I know you haven't thought about it yourself. Those darn numbers can be so convincing that one shouldn't even have to bother thinking I know... Again I have little desire to go all list form. Perhaps a constuctive thread could be made on the topic. I've witnessed 2 taunting shiled/brutes, a /TA MM, a /sonic, and myself a /Traps Corr stand up to much more than we were suppose to before, the combianion was quite wicked and pissed many l33t pvpers right out of zone... because we were "boring" ( Boring is what you call it when a team decides NOT to split up and hop around all over the place I found out) Yeah so we took extra resists added with -damage debuffs added with everything needed to drop flyers, turn damage into poop, kill regen and taunt heavy hitters off the squishies. If I remember correctly 2 of those teammates were quite new to PvP too. I haven't seen such a makeup since that day... I gave up waiting for such to become a norm. I still have hopes though.

YMMV. Just like in PvE some people can't cope without Healers there to give them the green stuff. I can understand to a certain extent how I13 ruined the game for these peoples.

I'm getting tired of typing so I'll just ask a silly question: If damage rules all in PvP... why wasn't it being used to stop your teammate from being spiked... I mean thats the best mitigation out there atm right? Hmm, perhaps a useless /kin that can drops damage by 25% would of helped too?

It's sad that such a divide can be found within an already small PvP commuinty. Not everyone switches to what's best at the moment. Not everyone thinks they know more than te devs do. I completely missed the memo that stated my controller was to have the same feel as a Scrapper in terms of damage and survivabilty, and it's seems quite obvious to me that usefulness in PvP should not be pre-determined. As I mentioned before: Just as FoTM builds are often played by bad players.... Good players don't always have to sit in FoTM builds.

/agree to disagee


Sure. My father got a brand new top of the line computer as a gift for X-Mas last year. Since then He's used it only to play spider solitaire and hearts... Does that make it a crappy PC, or would you say he hasn't realized it's potential yet?

LOL now that I do agree with. I guess my point was that the changes to PvP were made after LOTs of complaining... which seems quite silly now considering theres been like ten times as much after the changes were made. Some people deal with shat... some people dwell on it. Me, well I never missed a step.

Ditto about the length... can't get in-game atm and have little to do.

Beleive me I don't waste time with "Better or Worse" in a game like this... I PvPed from issues 4 - 12 with the same smile and enjoyemnt that I get today from PvPing. My overall point has less to do with bad players and more to do with good players that simply got it wrong, dragged the rest of us along for the ride, jumped ship when that didn't work... and then turned ther backs on those of us who still find it fun.

I'm sorry, which part was wrong?

You post was quite short, and the summary of PvP in your sig seems to include little to no sense what so ever...

Let's face it, the Devs of this game aren't allowed to step in and say " Hey, PvP this way cause that's how it's designed."

I think it's more likely that we got it wrong.... than they did. I'm sure to you and many others however, that's not the case... beacuse the people who play the game are always much more knowledgeable about what needs to be done than the people that design it right??

If Castle made the changes and was happy with them... it should of been a "Oh? How does it work?" moment... Instead of a "Why doesn't this work anymore!?" moment... this is probably the attitude that lead you to yor current opinion of PvP no?

One attitude leads to new ideas, new perspectives, possible new builds, new guides, training recruiting, fun, and all that stuff while the other attitude leads to moar QQ, FoTM dependancy, (moreso than before I12) Ragequitting, and profound and constructive comments like:

Do feel free to quote my earlier post if I stated something so off th wall... I don't mind being wrong. I'm just curious as to which part you found to be so far from the truth.