D0mbegone

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Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.

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Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.

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I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.

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Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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So that smiley is actually "smirk"? Huh.

What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?

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In terms of individual damage or in team scenario?

solo my fire/storm does more st and way more aoe damage than my storm/sonic. Both are heavily IO'd to solo easy AV's with no insp/temps/click accolades.

On a team, heh howl spam ftw.

Bring back view blocking snowstorm plz.

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I prefer a power set that does 1 thing very very well.

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Really? Because Cold has unparalleled -Rech, -Spd AND -Res, while providing the largest +Recovery bonus in the game. It doesn't just do them "very, very well", they're THE BEST. Seems like it would be right up your alley. By contrast Rad/ doesn't do anything really well. It's a toolkit set with a little bit of everything thrown in. It's a potent combination, but it doesn't do any single thing very well.

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It does various shades of puke green better than any other set!

Or at least until i16: I can sing a rainbow

Stay away from my prostate.

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I think an all-ranged Earth/ Dom would be the stereotyped gimp dom that some are unsure about. A dom who appears to be playing controller. From my experience, the trick about building an all ranged isn't just about taking just ranged powers from the secondary... but turning your primary into damage. (not just adding procs) I don't see Earth/ as having enough damage to pull it off.

P.S. Before anyone says it... Propel from 90ft away completely loses it's slow activating feel. I promise.

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/fire from range puts out about 90% as much damage as it does from melee.

/eng looks like it puts out as much or more damage from range as it does when including melee attacks. Way more if you use powerpush and have to chase after them to melee

Earth is an excellent set at maintaining range, probably the best set at it in the game along with Trick arrows.

An earth/ranged dom is anything but gimped.

As for earth contributing damage, well a proc'd out VG is about the best "ranged" damage any dom gets from their primary on top of the usual proc'd aoe immobs. And earthquake take the -res proc, which in a team can add more damage than any dom primary. Especially from range.

Oh and even at 90ft propel is still lame. Cool looking, but lame.

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In my opinion, the powers in cold are easier to use because you just use them whenever they are recharged. ....The powers in FF need some thought.

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So, in short, FF is for thinkers, and Cold is for idiots. I like where you're going with that, but isn't it a little harsh?

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here I was playing my FF and I just toggled up and buffed everyone and never need to touch my secondary other than every 4 min.

My brain hurts from all that thinking

Is this the same FF set that everyone says things like: "if you roll a /ff MM prepare to set up a pillow by your keyboard, it is so boring you'll need it".

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Few AV's have mez resistance, just flat protection. (think integration vs accel metab). Unresistable holds wouldn't do anything that normal holds don't already do.

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Well, "resistance" could be -protection, or whatever else accomplishes the task. The idea here is to remove the mechanism that a Dom's holds are off/on, and that more than one Dom doesn't do anything to change that. A couple of Doms working together, or one Dom who happens to get lucky, can break through from time to time.

Changing AVs might help, but it's not going to change the fact that anybody can use a hold. (Unless you just gut everyone else's ability to use control powers period) Controllers, at least, have a random element to their magnitude, so their hold magnitude varies over time. With Doms it's a constant, Domination is either up or down.

I do like the resistance idea, although I thought that Bosses and higher were already effected by a shorter duration than normal on holds. Is that more a factor of the difference in level or rank between the AV and the player? At any rate, Doms and Controllers have two things that distinguish their holds and other mezzes from other ATs, magnitude and duration. Not to mention that Domination boosts duration.


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"-protection" would just lower the mag required to overpower them. Once done it would be held. Unless you made the ptod fluctuate in strength, but that isn't exclusive to a -protection addition.

Controllers have a 10% chance of +1 mag (overpower), it is very easy to determine their avg mag over time, it really doesn't fluctuate much at all.

Dominators on the other hand ARE much harder to quantify. IN domination some builds can exceed 50 mag, out of domination more typical numbers are mag 12-20 depeding on slotting.

In my idea for changing AV's no other AT besides doms/trollers would ever be mezzing them on their own unless it was a highly specialized build like an ice/ice/elec blaster. Which is fine, the idea is to keep control in the domain of control based toons (which can include fringe builds like the example blaster).

Hold duration is unaffected by the ptod, most people just often face AVs that +con, which does affect duration (along with pretty much everything else out there).

Actually if I were given the keys to tweak ptod I'd:
ptod up
-Protection that fluctuates in 20 second cycles between mag 6 and mag 40 ie. ~~~~~~~ (wavy)
-Control breaker - mag 100 protection for 5 seconds every 40 seconds (unaffected by recharge)
-approx 50% resistance to mez.

-remove sleep and immob hole. Move immobs to standard mez protection covered under ptod. Change sleep to mag 8 protection.

btw, triangle are ALWAYS up.


Result:
-non control focused toons aren't mezzing AV's (ie trivializing
control)
-the AV plays red light green light during the fight (think of a new driver--vroom>urch>vroom>urch)
-peak protection w/ resistance factored in is higher than now (during the waves) thus reducing the possibility of perma statue by 1-2 control toons
-even with several control toons the "control breaker" prevents a statue fight.


Overall:
a single dom/troller will still end up providing similar mitigation that they do now (33% with holds), but it will be spread out over the entire fight rather than long period of doing nothing, followed by medium period of total mitigation.

Multiple control toons working together will still overpower the AV for most of the fight.

Milady gives a pretty vivid account of her lvl 22 fire/fire on test.
linky
(last post on the page)

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Once at softcap FF doesn't do much for the team.

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You do realize that FF has more then just 3 powers correct?

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The statement was relative to cold. and it is accurate in that regard. It is also pretty accurate just in general too.

Once you take the 'good' powers that contribute to softcapping everyone you are left with:
pff
forebolt
deten field
repulsion field
repulsion bomb
force bubble

imo sleet > all those combined

They will probably call it "power customization" but it will BE "color customization"

The marketing appeal of power customization is much stronger and true enough to justify the time, even if misleading (lol that is what marketing is all about).

I really don't see them giving multiple animations to each power, or even allowing animations to be switched. Take a serious look and you'll see there really aren't that many power animations that players even have.

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AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable


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However, you'll find a lot less people willing to agree that a dominator/trollers primary should be practically useless through the majority of the encounter. And at the point our primary *does* work a simple corruptor could have mezzed the AV

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i agree with you on that there but with a good team it shouldnt really matter much if the av is held as they have like crap immob protection wich is usefull for dom/troller to be around as well as give the dom/controller more chance with there secondary wich has uses like any other secondary it always has some sort of use.

But even for instance my hold doesnt hold right away it still does damage if earths hold doesnt hold it does damage and -def if my ice dom or troller hold doesnt hold it still does -rech and damage so it doesnt make doms/trollers completey useless during the fight my Mind dom really shines in rsf tho hehe

you have a good point tho. i see what you mean

Just Another Thought
then again if you could perma hold a av that would be kinda stupid too in a sence they wouldnt be any sort of challange

Although i have seen a av held for quite a bit of time already on certain teams alot longer then what you would normally see

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The only issue with the immob is that pretty much any AT can bring that. Same problem with when they do hold them when the ptod drop, pretty much Any AT can do that.

The secondary effects do help a bit, but at the same time AV's have very high resistance to them (like 85% res), so unless you are stacking extreme amounts of said secondary effect they don't tend to have much impact on the battle.

You are right, perma holding an AV makes the encounter go from boring to very boring quite quickly.

The ptod offer mag 50 protection, two doms working together can overcome that (some solo perma doms can even).

Interestingly enough the ptod are up for ~50 sec and then down for ~25. So all told any dom can offer 33% mitigation over the course of an extended AV fight. Numbers wise that is actually more than many support toons provide in the same situation.

However, as mention almost any AT can hold them when the ptod are down, so being a dom is nothing special in that regard.

Still, 33% mitigation is very good, yet the general consensus remains that control is useless in AV encounters. I think my post on the last page sums up "why" that is.

hotfeet on a /fiery is very good. FE is 30 seconds of +85% fire damage and it isn't very hard to get it up half the time.

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The team will be 2 scrappers and 2 blasters. I'm thinking FF would be more useful,though I'm sure they would love teh Heat Loss.

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Cold.

As long as the blasters let the scrappers eat most of the alpha cold will be considerably better for your group. If you had no one to eat the alpha and were all blasters+you I'd say FF.

That said, if you shield then slot arc fog for def and run manuevers that is 37% def. All anyone needs is 8% def to be softcapped.

Once at softcap FF doesn't do much for the team. However cold adds a ton of +offense, eats up AV's and the -rech/slows+softcap is easily as good at mitigation as softcap+knocks of FF.

Cold

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AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable


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I doubt you'll find many that disagree with this. Even those of us that solo AV's on some of our toons likely still think AV's are designed to be tackled with friends (I know I think it).

However, you'll find a lot less people willing to agree that a dominator/trollers primary should be practically useless through the majority of the encounter. And at the point our primary *does* work a simple corruptor could have mezzed the AV

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Perhaps Dominators could be given individual, "unresistable" holds? Or the Domination effect could randomly make their hold penetrate the PToD. Not sure how that would be implemented, but it's a thought. Feel free to reject it because it would make Domination more powerful, of course. :/

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Few AV's have mez resistance, just flat protection. (think integration vs accel metab). Unresistable holds wouldn't do anything that normal holds don't already do.

If I were attempting to tackle the PtoD issue for controllers and doms:

-Lower ptod mag protection to 15-20, maybe less (currently 50).
-Give them constant mag 10-14 protection
-Give them mez resistance (think how pvp holds work now, they always work, but for much shorter).

Numbers would likely need testing and tweaking

Result
- every dom/troller regarless of build could hold AVs for short burst, for a more consistent mitigation factor (rather than no mitigation followed by total mitigation like live ptod).
- non control toons could never/rarely mez them alone (no more solo corrs holding AV's when ptod drop.
- multiple control based toons working together could still hold the AV indefinitely or close to it.

That is just off the top of my head, but like I said, if the issue is AV's then you fix AV's - not the rest of the game.

...edited to remove what is a pretty pointless discussion...

tl:dr version - I'm not sure what points you are trying to push anymore (if it was ever clear). But if your newest line of thinking is to add more additional benefits to domination, but exclude out of domination mode then I'll just say no thx. People said they disliked the on/off feeling of the AT for a reason and Castle listened. I doubt he is looking to increase it again.

If AV's are a major problem then it is AV's that need to be changed not dominators. Why tweak doms for 1% of the game at the risk of unbalancing the other 99%?

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The point I'm trying to make is that by stripping the damage out of domination Castle is attempting to lower the perceived notion that domination is the only desirable state to play the toon in and that domination should be pursued first and foremost.

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I don't think it's a matter of perception, and I don't think that Castle believes that it is a matter of perception either.


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If it isn't perceived then what is it? think about that for a bit before you answer?

Is perma dom the ONLY way to play a dominator? no
Is perma dom PERCEIVED to be the be all to end all of playing a dominator? yes

And just so we are absolutely crystal clear, perceptions are often grounded in reality. Your absolution of the term "perception" seems to suggest you believe otherwise.

I'm really not sure why you are quoting Castle at me, he isn't agreeing with anything you have said.

I assure you, specifically adding another buff to domination is counter to what he is trying to do. Every step you make domination > non domination you drive players to seek it.

I really don't understand how you can say anything to the contrary. It is baffling to hear from someone who has been a part of the discussion for so long.

As for this whole part of your discussion:
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This I disagree with. Doms do not need a passive survivability boost when they are out of domination. Doms need, by the argument of several people here, and you yourself, I believe, a passive survivability boost WHEN TAKING ON AN AV AS PART OF A TEAM. A Dom does not need a boost to survivability when taking on a minion. He does not need a boost to survivability when taking on a group of minions. He does not need a boost to survivability when taking on a Boss. Those things may be helpful, but in all those cases, the Dom can use his holds to mitigate the damage.

This is meant to address the issue that the PToD disable the Dom's ability to hold, and thus expose him to AoE attack. AoE attack that for an AV is more than enough to overcome his low hit points. While a small boost to HP isn't going to change that on its own, when coupled with defensive buffs from allies, or debuffs to the AV, a small amount of HP may give him an advantage.

This is not intended to make it possible for a Dominator to fire off an AoE hold with impunity and take the counter attacks. Although, if he is in Domination and has buffs from an ally and wants to do that, that is an advantage.

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Let me just ask you three questions:

Does a dominator ever fight tough encounters out of domination mode?

Why would you want to exclude a dominator that ISN'T perma dom in an AV fight from being more survivable?

Does every AV encounter require a team with multiple +rech sources and/or does it autokick doms that don't have enough recharge to be perma dom?

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Everything factored in, I wouldn't take TA over Dark Miasma. Dark can heal, the ToHit debuff is significant enough to still effect AVs(I don't care about "The Unresistable Flash"), and that Darkest Night is a larger -Damage, then times two with the Dark Servant.

However, since I still refuse to play Dark Miasma or Force Field on Masterminds, I'm happy with Merc/TA.

[Edit]: Oh, also: Night Widows can do Unresistable -ToHit, so I guess between TT:M and Mind Link, Night Widows are better buffers/debuffers than both? Yeah, I went there.

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This is my feelings as well. And just like you, while dark is better, I still prefer my thug/ta over any x/dark MM.

VS an AV
dark does -tohit on par with TA, better with fluffy, but still has a def toggle and in applying all that -tohit does heaps of -damage.
Has resistance to energy and psi, which are fairly common in AV land
A heck of a good heal
Similar -res capabilities

Vs normal pve
It isn't even close. If you can't beat the game as a /dark MM you need to /uninstall. In actual play fearsome stare alone is as good of mitigation as everything TA throws out and then /dark heals everyone to full

That said, I still prefer oil slick over all of dark. Just get high recharge so it is up all the time. I also really like glue arrow, not that it is all that amazing even with the recently bumped -rech debuff.

Finally, tell Castle to get off his butt and fix the pseudo pets. It is the source of a lot of distress in multiple AT's.

As for NW's, heh they can also pick up dark obliteration for even more aoe -tohit and also a cone immob. look out! Oh and the get vengeance too!

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Rude players like supermax are why the COH 'community' has been fractured and destroyed.

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You're a complete moron. I'm one of the nicest people on the server. Only time I talk trash is to defend myself against idiot trash talkers like yourself. Case in point, yesterday. I kill you first time...don't say a word. Immediately you call me a noob. Kill you again, another "noob". Another time...."noob".

After that, I decided to show you who the real noob is. Too bad you're too ignorant to realize it.


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If repeatedly killing him didn't enlighten him I'm not sure what else you could have done to get through

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It would seem weird to attach it to domination and thus make domination highly desirable and actively pursued again. (not that I personally think building for dom is going to stop being the "best" way).

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I don't believe that the changes were meant to make Domination useless, and to remove its desirability as a Dominator function.

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And they don't. They were made to remove the perception that domination is the absolute "best" build to the point it is the "only" way to go on the AT.

Domination is far from useless
- they could strip it until it was just mez protection and it would still be awesome.
- they could strip it until it was just +mag controls and it would still be awesome.
- they could strip it until it was just and end refill and it would still be better than the defender inherent

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The thing is, there are plenty of advantages to Domination, as I mentioned. Domination has not been rendered totally ineffective, it has just had about 1/3 of its functionality removed. (If you estimate control buffs as another 1/3, and mez protection and the End recharge as the other 1/3) The PERCEPTION, though, is that Domination was doing something, as you saw the orange numbers get bigger, and now those orange numbers aren't bigger any more.


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Here I believe you are mistaken. We both agree domination is still very good (it is supposed to be), but I disagree about the perception aspect. Domination has been percieved as awesome because you see DOMINATION all over your screen and you run around 1 shot mezzing everything in sight for like half an hour.

Lots of people didn't even realize domination boosted damage. Or they realized it, but had no idea by how much. And that is understandable because most doms do split damage types. Seeing 20+30 on your screen and then seeing it go to 27+43 doesn't register as much as if it said 50 and then jumped to 80

But there is NO missing the words domination all over your screen. Heck it even encourages people to spam their aoe immob just to see it haha.

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This is not to say that the perception of Domination being highly desirable because it gives an HP boost would not be essentially an illusion. (solo) But I don't believe it was Castle's intention to nerf Domination, it was to buff non-Domination.

(I believe it was Positron who said "a buff given under one condition could be seen as a penalty under the other condition")

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The point I'm trying to make is that by stripping the damage out of domination Castle is attempting to lower the perceived notion that domination is the only desirable state to play the toon in and that domination should be pursued first and foremost.

If you were to then add a hp buff back into domination (but not out) you again take a step toward suggesting that domination is the "ultimate". Which is specifically being avoided.

You would also be buffing doms in a place they don't require it. Doms in domination don't have issues, not even on teams because their aoe mezzes last so long the mob is easily defeated. And everyone can "see" the dom is teh awesomesauce with domination all over their screen too.

If you are going to add a passive surviabilty boost to doms it would be targeted at when they need it most, which is out of domination.

HOWEVER, you wouldn't want to add it just to out of domination mode and then take it away in-domination mode because then you are creeping into the territory that Castle was originally thinking with his idea of: out of doms do extra damage, in doms lose the damage, but do more control.

Entering into domination should never be a debuff. (well it would have drawbacks in my world, but NOT in this game, no way). It just shouldn't be such a massive buff that everyone thinks it is the only way to play the game (which for better or worse, it still is imo).

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And thats why I'm also against any further buffs. A HP increase or anything else will push Dom's over the edge into tank magery IMHO.

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Which is the reason why I suggested keeping the boost low, and keeping it only within Domination. Since some of the complaints have been Domination is not as much of a "change in behavior" of the AT since it's effect is only mez protection, a refill of the End bar, and increased control duration, adding a new effect would make it percieved as more useful.

I must admit to not being opposed to "throwing the Dom players a bone", as I described the Blaster HP boost. I don't feel that 10% more HP is significant without high defenses to multiply that boost. So it would be relatively useless solo, even though most players would see, "OOo, I have more HP nau, I'm teh ubar!!!1!!"

On a team, though, that boost could be stacked with Defense, Resistance, and additional HP boosts to give an effective defense.

I'm more worried about that becoming 20-30% under double Domination, or 30-45% under triple Domination, which gets a Dom's HP close to that of a Brute. That's why I'm posting it, though, it is worth discussion. I still feel it likely the devs would reject an increase in HP outright, but maybe by putting it under the umbrella of Domination it can be limited.

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It would seem weird to attach it to domination and thus make domination highly desirable and actively pursued again. (not that I personally think building for dom is going to stop being the "best" way).

I will say that if a hp boost is given at some point it won't be to have any impact on solo play, doms already solo with great ease on live and especially test. They are very solo competent.

A hp boost, or some other passive survivability boost would be to help them in teams.

We know controls are binary - on/off - in function. In a team when they are on it is great. When they shut off you have 16 enemies looking to kick the crap out of the dominator because there is less support structure in cov (by design). The enemies usually don't have to look far either because the dom is standing right next to them using melee attacks

The margin of error when playing a dom in a team is absolutely tiny compared to other ATs. When things go wrong it is almost always the dom that dies first because they have so much aoe hate and they are standing right next to the enemies and they have no protection and they have low hp.

*I have no doubt doms would be more successful blue side with tanks drawing agro and a system designed to be more supportive of each other.

When the control is on, everthing is hunky dory. When it is off, the dom falls over dead

A passive survivability buff would be given to make the margin of error a little bit bigger, which is precisely the same reason it was given to blasters. But for them it was one aoe blast at the wrong instant and splat.

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You nailed it right there.
I enjoy my doms specifically for the challenge. I also like the frantic, constantly moving, constantly responding to threats playstyle of Doms. But then, my first and still favorite character to this day was a Blaster, so go figure.

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I don't think that has really changed. Then again, that's true for Blasters, as you said, and it can be true for Defenders and Corruptors, as well. They aren't really a "pew pew" archetype, if you want to really succeed you need to use your buffs and debuffs intelligently, choosing the right targets and herding your foes so as many of them are caught in your debuffs as possible. It requires thought, as much as playing a Blaster or Dominator does.

And meleers, as well, work best if you use a little strategy. I've often said that one reason for the unpopularity of Doms and Stalkers are their more specific playstyles, they are more like the specific strategies employed by Blasters and Scrappers, respectively, for specific builds. So there may be this perception that they have a higher "learning curve".

The changes don't really make Dom's "dumber", though. You still need to employ the same strategies you needed to use during Domination, to ensure that you are safe enough to use melee attacks. You even have to be more cautious, since you do not have Domination-level holds to support your Domination-level damage. Sure, you can go charging in like a Blaster, but you'll faceplant like a Blaster, too. The damage is essentially just enough to keep you from being a total failure if you choose to brute force your way through.

That's hardly the best way to play, though.

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Meh, blasters blow crap up - and dam wel -l easily into the 30's. In the 30's they hit a brick wall. It just so happens they were specifically targeted for a buff to address that issue. And it did. Blasters didn't have to get strategic until the 30's and when they did people cried to the high heavens.

Corrs and defs are inherently draw to grouping. They drop aoe debuffs and/or buff up teammates and stuff goes boom in spectacular fashion. They don't have to get strategic beyond deciding what npc to put a toggle debuff on. And that is too hard for many of them too and they whine "boo hoo, the scrapper killed meh anchor".

The only place they have to get strategic is when solo'ing and numerous people whine they can't solo x combo and the boards are stuffed with "best solo" choice to satisfy that niche of a group oriented AT.

Doms on the other hand do have to be strategic right away. They have huge aoe control powers that wear off in a matter of seconds during the low levels and they don't debuff enemies to make everyone tear through them all that much faster. They also don't buff allies to the point they become much more brash and would actually peal potential agro away (ie thermal shielded brute).

They have to be strategic about what aoe's they use in teams, and in case no one has notice dom primaries are almost entirely aoe's. And they have to be strategic about how they engage the enemy to deliver damage. ie sacrifice damage and stay at range or close in to use those tasty melee powers.

Sure once a dom matures most of the strategic thinking goes out the window, their controls become mature enough to neutralize most threats and domination is up more and more often to trivialize everything. But mature doms were never the issue, they are good on live and even better on test.

Lets be honest though, the AT is a little bit dumber now for solo play. Their teaming capability hasn't really changed much and it is where they struggle.

Maybe that is ok though, all the changes sure seem to point doms toward playing solo. Maybe me thinking doms should shine in teams is incorrect.

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Dom's requiring a higher degree of player competency (on avg) presents a barrier to entry that will always prevent them from being popular with the casual "I just wanna beat stuff up" crowd.

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You nailed it right there.
I enjoy my doms specifically for the challenge. I also like the frantic, constantly moving, constantly responding to threats playstyle of Doms. But then, my first and still favorite character to this day was a Blaster, so go figure.

That being said, I finally got the opportunity to test these changes this morning. For my Ice/Ice Dom? Straight to God Mode. My Plant/Thorn is going to need some reslotting, his End use is a bit too high. My Earth/Fire looks great though. Overall, I LOVE these changes, which perhaps makes me a bit weird.

The single biggest aspect of this change I love the most though? I no longer feel pressured to keep Domination going at all costs. I am now free to use it tactically as I need it. To me that makes it all worth it. Do I think these tweaks will make Doms more popular? Maybe. I expect a huge influx of Doms when I15 hits, then it will taper back off as people discover it is not a simple "pew pew" AT, as someone said earlier in the thread.

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You aren't weird to like these changes. Existing dom players should really like these changes (barring a few exceptions of course). I think they are pretty great too.

My concern with them is that the motivation behind the changes isn't actually being satisfied. I don't foresee a lasting increase of large proportion for doms.

Sure an AT description rewrite, the devs hype them up a bit with some new images, gmotd, w/e and in conjunction with the new changes numbers might go up a meaningful amount.

But one mistake would be attributing that to the changes alone and not giving credit to the advertising (if it gets done).
*off topic, but sort of like how people have used pvp IO's as evidence that the pvp changes are working . Did they try pvp IO's under the old system and have them fail? meh.

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I've pvped with an Ice/Thorns for many issues. It used to be my scrapper/stalker killer in the arena. Lots of things have changed since then practically every other issue some major changes come and u have to reslot and change builds/tactics/strategy.

If thorns sounds like it appeals to you make one and slot it up to its full potential with -Def IOs bring it to arena and duel some elec builds and see what the outcome is. The fun part of this game is everyone has their own theories and how they would build and play their toons so if thorns appeals to you make it your own and go for it.

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This... there was a time people used to say dark/cold sucked.. Heck I stomped one way back when with my ice/rad corr and after the fight we decided he'd be better off re-rolling. Unfortunately, I never saw him again to apologize for that bad advice. Things change and player A might struggle with a certain combo, while player B excels with it.

The two things I found to be total suck in thorns were:
1. Impale - but it has just been buffed for doms. tbh though I'd still like it buffed to a 10 or 12 sec attack.
2. Constant redraw when switching between primary and secondary.
-This used to be a huge annoyance as you'd literally be switching back and forth with each move to layer high enough mag to burn a tray of bf's. That isn't really the case any more. You only need to toss out one or two mez/knock every 15 seconds. So really, the redraw annoyance has been cut quite a bit too.
-Redraw in and of itself wouldn't be so bad if it didn't make you drop like a stone each time. Basically you hit a player with char and then go to cast thorn dart. (if you are in range) you hear ----shtlick----drop like a stone to the ground and THEN the power would cast. The result is often a lot more time grounded then the casting numbers seem to indicate.

Thorns is the best its ever been right now. It is still stuck with generally long casts on every power, whereas elec is only long on one power, so you'll still get rocked more often then ideal. But if you really want it then go for it.

Maybe you'll be the next Hans and make a unique combo become a legend.

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With how good you guys talk about the average player being at "C" i12 pvp would have been excessively popular in this game

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I personally don't have any knowledge of the average intelligence level of your basic PvPer, and I am probably not the one to ask for my opinion.

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In general it took a lot of situational combat awareness
-recognition of powers being used
-recognition of range disparities
-recognition of when to strike from afar, when to strike up close
-the ability to make executive decisions on the fly and then deal with the results in real time.

Really, the people I see most often displaying the kind of pve combat techniques that doms require are when I see pvp'ers piloting various AT's.

I think it is no small coincidence that doms were very popular with experienced pvp'ers (ie non 2 shot stalkers heh).

PvP was and is largely unpopular because it requires so much attention to the details (there are other reasons too). Whereas the majority of pve scenarios you can just shut off your brain and punch things in the face.

Dom's requiring a higher degree of player competency (on avg) presents a barrier to entry that will always prevent them from being popular with the casual "I just wanna beat stuff up" crowd.