Cyber_naut

Exactly. There's really no good reason to ask for a nerf, in this situation at least. Like I said, if they don't like defense, don't use it. And if they really need to use it for some reason, if they can't find a challenge using ae and the difficulty sliders, then there's something wrong with that player, not the game.

Like I said, my only complaint was the end drain, the arc overall was great. Maybe running it solo isn't too bad because you're only dealing with a few at a time. I was on a small team and taking most of the aggro, and therefore most of the end drain. Very entertaining arc though, thanks for making it.

Nope. We didn't get any news for a month. People complained. The people who run the game were probably listening and suddenly we've got a bunch of news and changes. Maybe this was coming anyway, but they specifically addressed the complaint and gave an explanation. It was a legitimate complaint and hopefully we won't go another month without any updates, and if that is the case, good job to those who run the game, and thanks for listening and responding to our concerns.

If I recall correctly, they said beta would begin early first quarter 2010. With the dramatic changes, and the fact we still don't have any real info about GR, I'm wondering if they are behind schedule, hence the silence and internal changes, possibly due to whip cracking from higher-ups.

Not at all, just proving the point that scrappers are not at all overpowered when at's that are supposed to be weak solo are doing things solo that the supposedly strongest solo at simply cannot do. And the defense of 'well, it's only one power' just got shot down by your post as well. Then on top of that, the same at's are more valued on teams, to the point they are 'must haves' for task forces while scrappers sometimes have to hope for a mercy spot. So if nerf bats start swinging, scrappers should be the last at hit by them (but as I've said over and over again - I'm opposed to nerfs because I think it's fine for top end builds to be able to do extreme stuff, so don't misinterpret what I'm saying as a call to nerf anything).

Thanks for the BS build btw, I'll check it out when I get a chance - always interested in looking at top builds. I like how you pointed out to the other poster that sometimes its better to have a pause in an attack chain than to jam a weaker attack in for optimal dps. I've always been cautious when looking at stats thrown up in here because there are so many variables and missing any of them could lead to horribly wrong conclusions, like when people cried overpowered when they took the animation delays out of katana.

I'd love to see your BS build that puts out that kind of dps.

And while you're right to point out that SD will put most if not all primaries above any non SD paired primary, all things being equal (ie. when measuring primary vs primary, they either both have sd or neither does), the chart does give a good idea of which sets are best in regards to single target dmg over an extended period, and BS seems to finish in the lower half in most of the discussions we've had (which is why I'd love to see your build, I'm curious to see your slotting and attack chain).

Obviously with DB, SD is not an option, but if I recall correctly, shredmonkey's db was doing well over 200 dps without sd.

Whenever I hear cries of 'overpowered' regarding scrappers - what about the AT's that are soloing Lusca... lol. It aint' scrappers pulling that stuff off, and the scrapper AT is SUPPOSED to be the dominant solo at. Then people will come back with 'well that's just top end stuff with crazy io investment'. Well yeah, same thing with the 'overpowered' argument regarding scrappers.

SD is a great top end set, the best imo, but it's no picnic leveling up, and that should be considered when discussing it's top end power. And it definitely does not shine without IO's, and lot of them (especially the expensive ones).

Some defensive sets have fallen behind a bit with the rise of defense and IO's. Rather than messing with sets that people enjoy and angering the dwindling customer base, the devs should rework some of the lesser sets to make them more appealing and competitive, and give their players freshened up sets to play with and enjoy. Top end, IO'd to the gills scrappers soloing a pylon in under five minutes is no more gamebreaking than an ill/rad soloing lusca. An sd obliterating a mob with SC and fireball is no more gamebreaking that a fire/kin farmer.

Devs and players, I say to thee, put down your nerf bats. DM used to be an underused set, but rather than nerf popular sets that were outperforming it, the devs buffed DM and gave players a virtually new set to play with and enjoy. So rather than crippling SD like they did with EM, tweak some of the underperforming sets to make them more competitive, or introduce new IO's that benefit those sets the way def bonus IO's benefit defensive sets.

Yeah, people are enjoying it! Change it to the energy transfer animation and have it shower enemies with flowers!

Bill did a list with just the primary doing the dmg and fm and dm both were top performers. SD just widens the gap for the primaries that go with SD.

Fireball adds a lot of aoe to dm, but dm has nothing to match FSC, and FSC is much better than fireball. That's not to say dm is bad, it's just not at the same level as FM in terms of aoe dmg. But you will have higher survivability with siphon life on DM.

The reason I like fm/sd better is because, like I said, it shines in more situations, and more often. I team a lot, and when I solo, I'm set for x8, and there's no question my fm will kill faster than my dm. On rare occasion, I might need to pop a green insp or 2 on the fire where on the dm the dmg spikes are taken care of with siphon life. There's really nothing I can do to bridge the killing gap though, that's why I'd suggest fm.

*And as I said earlier, if you're going for no insp av soloing, that is one area where dm/sd has a clear advantage due to the self heal.

Actually, the concerned have more behind their argument than the co* defenders - if population was steady or increasing, I doubt they'd be hiding the numbers with so many of their customers concerned about said situation.

And the reason they're losing customers is in large part due to long delays between updates, something that at one point the devs claimed they were trying to move away from, by having more frequent updates, and something they should be able to move away from with a supposedly larger workforce. Then take into account we're looking at a delay to GR, and that GR is a paid expansion - how long before we get the next free issue that has come with the monthly fee since the games inception? The paid costume packs don't cut it, nor do the less than intensive holiday events we've seen. Didn't the devs say they devloped AE so their own people could put together story arcs and such easier? So why not release some new arcs and tf's every so often to keep things fresh?

Bottom line is, if their new plan is to release new stuff only twice a year, and most of the releases are paid expansions and packs, then this game is in serious trouble (though they should retain about 20 loyal defenders regardless of what they do... lol). And if this is the case, I'm very disappointed because this is the best game I've ever played, and after seeing how weak CO turned out, co* has a lot of potential to stick around despite new competition, if done right.

CoF needs a rework imo. It's too similar to OG, and the only real advantages over OG, no wandering/stunned enemies and a minor to hit debuff, don't justify the massive endurance cost of the power. The fact that there's really no real reason to have both powers is reason enough for some kind of change to one of the two powers.

The way the game has evolved has left some sets with clear overall advantages over other sets. Some minor alterations and buffs to lesser played sets could add a breath of fresh air to the sets and the game itself. Look what the changes they made to dark melee did for that set and the positive effect it had on many players. And it wouldn't take a massive amount of work by the devs, like creating a whole new powerset would.

The bottom line is, where you get powers in a set is very important, and clearly affects the quality of the set.


LOL, sure if you're balancing it against the turd that is EM, and if the game used a set standard throughout (but they clearly do not, as evidenced by SS...). But the devs should not try to balance popular sets against weak ones by adjusting the popular sets, they should adjust the lesser played ones to the popular ones. In other words, make EM more like SS so more people could enjoy EM, you know, to create a more enjoyable product and keep more customers happy. (And I don't mean make it exactly like SS, but improve it so more people enjoy it.) Or they could go the other way and match sets their customers enjoy to lesser played ones by nerfing them, which will lead to unhappy customers.

What FS "Should Have" is your opinion. What it DOES have, lots of people seem to enjoy, and if it were altered without buffing the rest of the set, SS would be a joke, and the devs would have lots of unhappy customers, just like when they nerfed ET, which was EM's set defining power. And this talk of a mythical set 'calculation' standard (and I say mythical based on the fact that you continually mention sets that 'break' the 'rules') apparently doesn't work very well if it was applied to EM - just look at all the cobwebs forming on the set, while SS, which apparently ignores them, is very popular. The devs should stop trying to crowbar sets into these standards (if in fact that is what they are doing), and concentrate more on making the set fun to play. And right now, EM, which was once fun to play for many, is no longer. And you can keep claiming it was only about numbers, despite the fact people continually testify to the fact it was about how the set 'felt' and 'played', and I, along with many others, will continually tell you it was more than that.



First of all, I disagree with you claiming DM is 'definitely' worse in aoe dmg, unless you never play dm and don't know how to use shadow maul. And it's not fair to disregard SD and DC because they do contribute to aoe dmg and abilities, like endurance drain/gain, and a nice to hit and dmg buff from multiple enemies. And I'm sure you wouldn't even try to argue that the sets, DM and EM are on par ability-wise, at least I would hope not.

Secondly, your other comparison, MA, simply supports my assertion that EM is a weak set that needs buffing, because people have been begging for MA to be reworked for ages.

Right, it's aoe abilities are tied or worse than the other sets at the bottom of the barrell in aoe damage and ability. Of the two you named, one set is far better due to unique abilities, and the other is a set people have been begging to get reworked for ages.

Actually, I think the devs who 'fixed' em were thinking the same way you are. Now very few people still play em and they pissed off a lot of their customers.

I was using SS to show that you don't have to use a complicated, set system with rigid rules to make a fun powerset that customers will enjoy. It's ok to go outside of the lines and make the set unique. The only set rule the devs should stick to is to make sure the set is fun to play, and if any changes are made to the set, make sure they increase the fun factor rather than lower it.

You say people are frustrated with the set only because it's weaker and 'has to be played in a different manner'. Well, yeah, lol. Most people don't enjoy playing sets that overall are cellar dwellers in almost every aspect. Most people don't like playing a set that is virtually useless on teams, in an mmo.

And comparing it to regen is interesting. Yes regen got nerfed, but imo justifiably so, due to the fact it made players almost unkillable. That's hardly equivalent to what et did pre nerf. Also, the fact people started realizing defense sets had an advantage over everything else, along with added defense from io's, played a part in the drop in popularity. So the comparison is not very valid, imo.



This would be your opinion, and I think it's very safe to say it is the minority opinion, lol. ET used to be the sets defining power, now, as you admit, it's nothing more than a situational power. And with nothing to replace the defining power, em has become a joke of a set.

In the other sets you mention, the powers listed really are not set defining powers. People don't play FM for GFS, or DB for 1kC, or MA for EC. I've already addressed MA, but with FM and DB, you have sets with a nice mix of ST and AOE dmg and abilities, that are fun to play. EM needs work to match them because its a slow, plodding set that is horrible in team play. It was a fun set before because it had that one, shining power. One could argue it was too dependent on that one power, but at least it gave people a reason to play the set. Without it, well, the results speak for themselves. Lots of complaints and not many people playing the set. Even you admit it needs buffs, lol.

It's true that many took it because it was 'flavor of the month'. But it certainly was not flavor of the month for its pve abilities, lol. It was flavor of the month because it was dominant in the old pvp format, and people talked about it on the boards. One of the devs even flat out admitted he was influenced by the posts laughing at those who took any set other than em, while missing the fact it was in regard to pvp play, not pve. You say the fact people are not 'shouting em's virtues from the rooftops' does not mean the set is broken, well the fact people were talking about it positively in regards to pvp didn't mean the set was broken either. But the fact so many customers say time and again the set is no longer fun to play does indicate it is broken. The fact its only on par with sets in st dmg while being blown away in the aoe department does indicate it is broken.

And you talk about 'bringing sets down'. Thats a great way to lose customers. Better to bring the under performing sets up to the ones that are working. There is no set in the game that is absolutely game breaking, so the idea that the bottom feeders can't or shouldn't be buffed is nonsense. Instead of wrecking sets people enjoy, like they did with em, they should toss a couple of buffs, or completely rework, sets that nobody plays (ice melee im looking at you).



So you don't like how slow TF is, but you're ok with making et sloth like? LOL, make up your mind man. How fast do you want TF to be? And if you make it too fast, uh oh, it's 'overpowered' again with a fast hitting big hitter, lol. The main problems with the set are the best attacks are glacially slow, and it has atrocious aoe. If you're going to keep the best two attacks glacially slow, then why not add some cone action (like 1k cuts...) and address one of the sets problems? If you want to speed up the heavy hitters, just give us old ET back.

I'd say the value of a power, and where you get it, is a pretty important relationship, lol. If there were two SS sets and one got footstomp at lvl 10 and the other at 32, which set would you play?

Thats why if you are going to balance two sets against eachother (or more), and they're already close to even in single target ability, and you bring one set up to the same level as the other, where that set is getting it's aoe powers is very relevant. That's why I said buffing wh anywhere near fs's power level would imbalance the two sets in the opposite direction.



So it's debatable as to which power is better, considering the fact ko blow activates faster and doesn't do self damage? Even if you want to argue that et is superior to ko blow (I'm not agreeing that it is), would you claim its a wide gap? I would hope not.

Now lets look at aoe ability - would you argue whirling hands is anywhere near as good as footstomp? What set has worse aoe ability than em? And that's the problem.

EM is still a top single target set, there is no dispute there. The problem is, there are several competing sets in the same neighborhood as em in terms of single target ability, but these same sets severely outclass em in aoe ability.



You're making it more complicated than it needs to be, and you'll never get perfect balance between sets if you want the sets to be different and unique at all. And I'm not asking for perfect balance. But when one set is only on par with several other sets in terms of single target ability, while being at the bottom in aoe ability, and playing said set makes me want to poke out my eyes with a rusty nail, then that set needs some help. I simply can't think of a reasonable argument to suggest that a set is balanced vs competing sets when its on par with other sets in terms of st, and a clear bottom feeder in terms of aoe, especially in an mmo game where teaming is a common situation.

You complain about HOW superstrength is balanced. I really don't care HOW they balance the sets, I would just ask that they balance them. And right now, em is not balanced when measured against competing sets.



I strongly disagree. I rarely ever pvp, but I loved et. And when it had a fast activation time, it got me consistent kills even on the largest teams. Now, it's virtually useless on teams, because your target is usually dead before the animation finishes, but as a bonus, you still get to eat the self damage. So while you may not feel that is a 'bad' power, it should be clear by now that many feel quite the opposite, hence all the complaints and shelved em toons.



As I've said, I don't care HOW they balance it, but I think it's clear the set needs help. If they did go with the 'improve aoe' approach, I agree that adding some to et and/or tf would be a good idea. Then the sets' best two powers would have some use on teams.

Ha, I actually like the new animation, I just can't stand how the set plays now. Before, with a quick et, you had a fast-hitting heavy hitter that gave you an auto-kill on whatever you targeted, even on large teams. Sure it still sucked being on a large team with em due to it's poor aoe, but at least you had that one glorious attack. Now its worse because your best two powers are virtually useless on large teams. And it's ridiculously frustrating firing off one of your big hitters only to have your target killed by a teamate, and eating et's self damage on top of it is just a slap in the face.

First of all, if they make WH anywhere near as good as footstomp, it would be more than a slight tweak, lol. And, imo, it shouldn't be as good as footstomp, since footstomp is a teir nine power. As I said in an earlier post, increasing the aoe ability of em would be one way to pull it out of the basement, but again, a slight tweak to WH (like a slightly larger radius or slightly improved chance for stun) wouldn't do it, imo.

Secondly, I can think of a pretty significant difference between KO blow and ET, KO blow doesn't damage you every time you use it. As it stands now, with footstomp, SS has far superior aoe ability than EM, and it would take quite a bit of a buff to WH to even that out, and then you'd create a new imbalance in that SS gets FS as it's tier nine while WH comes earlier for EM.

And finally, the animation change is not being 'overexaggerated'. ET was THE power for EM, just as FS is THE power for SS. ET used to make EM THE dominant st set in exchange for it's pitiful aoe. ET used to be a guaranteed quick kill on teams, now it's a corpse masher that only does damage to yourself, even if your target is already dead. That's why so many have complained and that's why so many have shelved their EM toons - because when you cripple a set's defining power, you cripple the whole set. The same thing would happen if they nerfed FS to the same degree for SS.


You may still enjoy EM, and that's fine, but the fact remains, the set is now on par with several others in single target ability, while being a bottom feeder in terms of aoe ability, which definitively puts it near or at the bottom among all competing powersets. And while some may still enjoy and play em, there are many players who despise how the set now plays, because the quick big hitter that defined the set is gone, and what remains is a glacially slow single target set with pitiful aoe damage and mitigation.

Considering it's a bottom feeder in terms of aoe damage and mitigation, and it's best attack damages the user, it should be heads and shoulders above other sets in terms of single target damage (because that is literally all it's got), not on par with others that have better damage mitigation and aoe abilities.

You compare em to dm, so lets look at them then. Pretty close in terms of single target damage, but after that, em gets wrecked. Again, em's best attack damages the user every time its used, and thanks to it's ridicu-long animation, on teams, you will constantly be et'ing corpses while still damaging yourself -not a lot of fun. DM's best attack (arguably), heals the user, adding a great deal of damage mitigation and survivability.

Neither set is very strong in terms of aoe, but dm certainly has more options, with shadow maul early on, an aoe end drain power that does minor aoe damage, and a build up power that does minor aoe damage (edit:holy crap i just looked up the damage on mids - it does the same damage as whirling hands? LOL... wow.) but also grants a nice to hit buff.

And finally, anyone who has played both sets extensively, and is not suffering from massive drug abuse, will choose dm over em for almost every single situation, because it's simply a much better set than em in almost every situation - and most importantly, it's a lot more fun to play than the sluggish and frustrating em, post nerf.

Again, I'm not claiming the set is completely unplayable, but it needs some buffs to compete with most other powersets. A slight tweak to wh is not going to do it.