Cognito

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As long as it doesn't have an effect on PvP, then I don't see any problem with have some sets stronger/weaker than others.

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Not to you directly, but it does overall effect the game: e.g:

1. New player "accidentally" picks up a "gimp" set. Level sit up, sees how bad he is. Gives up and leaves game. Resources lost.

2. Specific Trials stanrt to favour / select only specific sets / builds / ATs. These become operationalised, less variety. Playes with underpowered sets get excluded, fed up, leave game, resources lost.

3. People will naturally gravitate towards more powerful sets (dont even try to deny it). Less variery, diminshed variation in team play and (for some) playable sets. Reduces longevity of game for some. Resources lost.

4. Lack of balance in itself causes biterness and loss of faith in game. Bad karma in community and despair at lack of action causes players to leave. Resources lost.

WHilst you may not care, it affects the game.You coud I suppose construct an argument that having unbalanced sets is a good thing for the game, but thats not the veiw I take, or indeed an MMORPG I am aware of.

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Lets say that SS/WP is the godly uber setup that the OP claims it is.
Now, if that gets nerfed, and is now as powerfull as (to use as a guidline) axe/EA.
What about those who use either of those sets with a different primary or secondary?
Your DM/WP who used to be as 'strong' as axe/EA is now underpowered.
Your SS/fire now cant put out the same damage he used to, which lowers his survivability.
Nerfing a pair of powers because, if combined, they have good synergy, will not help anything. You still have a power set that works good in that combination, but less so in others, removing balance from even more combinations than you tried to fix.


And no, i dont think either are overpowered.

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Pretty much the same reason why Fire/Kinetics Controllers are hard to nerf. Neither of the sets are overpowered on their own but together, they become awesome. So anyone that has a different combination suffers regardless.

I have a SS/WP Brute. Haven't played her in about 90 days. My SS/Fire is a lot more fun. Maybe it's not because they're good. Maybe it's just because they're easy. And people like easy.

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Actually there are several very good ways to specifically target Fire/Kins, discussed on a previous thread. I wont go into all of them, but for instance Making Containment count towards damage cap, Hot Feet damage being unbuffable, or Fire Imps being immune to recharge modification.

No, its been left alone because Devs have lost their nerf-bottle, not they cant do it.

Before you get all hot under the collar...

Firstly, im not calling for a nerf on any particular power set (Im sure most people have a pretty good idea what should be nerfed, its not difficult)

Secondly, im not using nerf in its original, now forgotten meaning "to render almost useless". Im talking about nerfs as in power balancing, you know, maybe shaving 10 to 20% of the utility of the power (even more maybe, but normally in this ballpark)

Thirdly, im working on the proposition that the game is too easy, bordering on collapse upon itself easy. There is practically nothing in the game you can fail now (LRSF, STF, Sewer Trial, soloing AVs, and VERY occassionally the ITF) even if you crank up to invincible.

Even if you crank this up to invinicble, most end game team, even if poorly equipped SO toons, end up going on autopilot, wishing they where fighting +4s and +5s rather than +2s and +3s.

Now...

Im not calling for a blanket nerf to everything. But I start with the premise: THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER. If you disagee with this you can pretty much stop reading now.

Now, I also start with a premise: THE SETS ARE NOT PERFECTLY BALANCED. Again, if you disagree with this (its pretty hard to), stop reading.

Lastly, the premise: STRIVING TO ACHEIVE BALANCE IS A GOOD THING. Again, if you feel CoX should be a game where some toons are just plain better than others for no reason other than that AT or set is good, I cant argue with you, and you better stop reading.

HOwever, I thinkk most people would agree with these premises. The devs certainly do (except fo the easiness one, which they havent commented on one way or other).

Now, A statement that comes up a lot on the boards is

"Dont nerf x, but bring y and z up to the level of x!"

Sounds good on face value dosent it. Not unreasonable, and justified on many occassions. there certainly are a few sets that need a boost (Psionic blast for blasters is the most outrageously underperforming set I have played - its unbeleivably bad in my opinion).

BUT, what if this was the ONLY way sets were balanced.

Y and Z are buffed to X.

But say there is a miscalculation. Z was buffed ever so slightly to much.

Now, you have to buff X and Y to match Z

But hold on, now Y is a little to strong.

Lets buff X and Z...

...and so on

See what happens?

All sets just edge up in power, almost certainly by ever decreasing imcrememts, but up they go. Now add a new set to the equation (WP, im looking at you).. what if its overpowered?... no problem! buff everything else.

In summary, We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment, we need them AS MUCH (if not slightly more) than Buffs.

Not Huge great nuclear bomb nerfs, but judged, sensible nerfs. In small steps.

Not convinced? Well, few people want to play a game (at least in the long term) where they can NEVER acheive a challenge even on the hardest setting.

I, for one, am concerned that the mantra "Give the players what they want" is a coffin nail for the game. That means no nerfs. the devs have lost their bottle. To me, it has the faint smack of desperation. And its just plain bad for the long term health of the game.

So I stand up and say "GO GO NERFBAT". Let the devs nerf. I encourage them to do so. I would like them to do it in a targetted way. I would like them to do it in a minor way. But most of all, I implore them, for the health of the game, to just do it. Thats what some players with a long-term veiw actually want.

My only level 40+ brutes have been DB/WP and Elec/Stone.

Whist /Stone certainly has its dvantages is some respects, allowing you to act as "Tank", there is no question in my mind that Willpower is stupidly overpowered for brutes. Mainily, because they have good survivability (equal to anything but Granite it seems to me) coupled with regen and endurance recovery; which are hugely important in allowing a steam roller brute on full fury.

Willpower should never have been given to brutes, IMO, without a serious change to it.

SO I feel like im at 2/3 my other blasters during my "Sweet spot".

This set needs looking at!

Never played Ice or Energy blast to anything significant so cant compare to them.

Compared to Sonic, AR, and Archery I feel im doing about 2/3 damage. And thats being generous, discounting the most feeble AoE potential you can get. And most of my damage seems to come from my secondary!!!

/Mental I have no problems with, its pretty robust. (Lvl 41 Archery/Mental. A lot more fun). At the end of the day, secondary is not so much bout damage, but utility. Your primary should take care of psi resistant mobs. Love the Drain Pyche and PSW!

EDIT: Thinking about it, I actually think my Grav controller disposed of single targets faster than my psi blaster!!! (Build up and Aim excluded)

OK, My Psi blaster (Psi/Energy) is now level 39. Time to stop and pause.

Now, ive played this game for a while, never powerelevelled, never farmed. 15 Alts at level 50, and several more level 40+

Never, in all my playing, have a seen anything as seriously underperform as Psi Blast. And yes, I have a level 50 Trick Archer Mastermind.

What on earth is up with this set? It seems to do about 2/3 the damage of my other blasters (AR/Ice, Sonic/Fire, Archery/Mental, all level 40+)... and this is against non-robotic enemies. Its pitiful against council robots and I shudder to think of the upcoming joy I have against the Praetorian robots.

On top of this, only one AoE (exluding nova)... what on earth is up there?

And its not as if the secondary effects, or endurance costs are anything to write home about.

I can only imagine that the devs where so terrified of it being FoTM in PvP (that joke, yes) that they nerfed it to oblivion.. not that it matters now with issue 13 rewriting all the rules (and nobody pvping anyway).

Can somone explain what the hell is up with this set? Its the most blatant underperformer I have ever seen.

j00 m4y b3 4bl3 t0 sp33dl3v3l 4n ub3r 1337 l3v3l s0, bU7

There are no short cuts to a true level 50 !

Hold on, is that no more prerequisites for everyone, or just 60 month vets?

Heh, didnt see that. Hardly raining on my parade tho,is it?

Seems good. A bit too good it you ask me, gives too much of an advantage.

Personally I'd like them to reconsider that one, but the devs seem stuck on the road to hell; i.e. feed the players what they want.

I hate to rain on everyones parade about dropping a power, but whilst it sayss that the travel powers open up at level 6..

As it stands the descriptions still state that eg. for fly you must allready posess hover or air superiority.

There is a pretty decent (IMO, extremely likely, for balance reasons) probabiity this will continue.

Personally, I think to entice people into PvP you need a more level playing feild rather than a more unbalanced one. I know thats a bitter pill for hardcore PvPers who have spent biliions on a great build to swallow, but there it is.

of course, NCSoft may take the veiw that forcing people into grinding for uberness is good from a business perspective.

Now there sir, is a suggestion.

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1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.

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Sorry but i will have to disagree here.I understand some people are furstrated but there is something really obvious.You simply CANNOT expect to be on same terms with a hardcore PvPer.I am not talking about nubs cause nubs can be killed even when they got a billion build and u are in simple SO's.Against a seasoned PvPers you cannot ask to be on par simply because they spend ALL their time perfecting their builds/skills.Its unreasonable to ask such a thing as it would be for me to ask all badgehunter titles to be reset on a monthly basis or weekly simply because i wanna badgehunt and be on par with other seasoned badgehunters.



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Its only an option. Im just saying its an option that might tract somecasual PvPers to PvP on a level playing feild. They can use their second build to create a cheap SO fuelled build.

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PVP community attitude replacement.

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Sorry but this really is out of place.I understand most PvE exclusive players keep a calm attitude and prefer to taunt each other in other ways but PvP is what it says.Player versus Player.The taunting and the trashtalking will always be part of it.Now of course i am all against breaking rules,calling names cussing etc in pvp zones.However the trashtalking is part of what gets the blood boiling in PvP and many times part of tactics to taunt your opponent to rush in mistakes.Wont change dont wanna see it change and if people are easily offended or have a weak heart stick to cookies baking and playing pokemon.There have been many PvE players i seen set foot in PvP zones and despite what goes on they know the drill keep calm and do their thing and hats off to them cause they get it.

And you know what?PvE community is JUST as bad.Maybe the bad boys in PvEers dont come out as easy due to the carebear nature of PvE but when they come out oh boy!So i think this "Hollier than you" attitude that some exhibit is kinda [censored] considering there is equal drama going PvE side and at least PvP side noone pretends to be a saint.



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Fair point. Im just saying the current PvP (in g ame, i should have added) attitude puts off causal PvPers. *shrug*. Again, if you want to attract PvErs to PvP you have to appeal to them. If you dont, fair enough, PvP zones will not swell, and PvE'ers wont loose anything. Perhaps PvPers wont either? but the thread is about how to attract PvErs to PvP. And a different attitude would help IMO.



Overall, sensible, considered post TG, I tip my hat to you, even. Kind of post its a pleasure to read even if you disagree with it.

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Well when you go that will help no ends,



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Im not going. And my departure is unlikely to help, as I imagine you know. You may indeed recall a thread very similar to SS's I started on the PvP forum about 6 months ago with the express purpose of trying to work out how to attract PvE'ers into PvP. Please refer to that thread and some of the responses that garnered.

Also please note that whilst I suggested a PvP community (and Im talking in game not forums) attittude replacement, I didnt name anyone or ask them to leave like your statement did (i.e. to me).

If you wish to do a survey about entering a PvP zone with an unknown toon on global hide and see the kind of parley you get, that would be most interesting. My experiences have been most negative. Thats just my experience, which I throw out. Maybe I'm wrong *shrug*.

My personal solution would be for devs to abandom ship and commit no resources whatsoever to PvP. But thats not really constructive.

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Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.

For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:

1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.

2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.

3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.

4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.

5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%

6. PVP community attitude replacement.

There, that lot will help.

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Ok well thanks for the comments. I've got to say you're the first person to say that I'm aware of, that I13 is a good start.

I think your option 1 doesn't then mean you can be the best you can be. It's ok from a skill POV... but you reduce the build to SOs.

I've not experiened "escape toggles" as a huge thing (to my knowledge) but if it's in PVE, then shouldn't it be in PVP?

3) Agreed.

4 & 5) why? you've not explained that.

6) unworthy of comment. I think to be fair the PVP "community" have not been heard and so their "attitude" is fairly understandable. They pay their subs like everyone else and their percentage of teh game gets less love than most - and when it gets attention they feel it's negative, rather than beneficial.

I'd add to that that since I got into PVP in about I7, the whole thing's got worse from my own experience, not better until it's now dead on its feet.

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1 Zilch is lost by adding this option. Casual PvPers dont have time to grind for an uber build. The worst you can say about this option (I emphasise option) is that it dosent do nything.

2. It should be in PvP and PvE. Unfortunately, escape powers are almost tantamount to "I cannot loose" at present. I dont know how you should nerf them.. maybe 15 seconds duration and no travel powers whilst activated? Anyway, it seems they are going to be nerfed so this is a moot point.

3. Dont think anyone could disagree with this. Offensive toggles are useless now, and some sets rely on them.

4 / 5. Because AoE powers are terrible in pvp. Getting more than one enemy in an AoE power is difficult under most circumstances and easily avoidable. Perhaps superlarge AoEs like EMP or Novas could be excluded. AoEs are balanced around hitting 3+ enemies.

As for placables? well anyone can zip out of them, on top of being superhard to get more than one person. If you actually manage to get this onto an enemy it should bite far more than it does at present. 200% may be excessive for placables without a slow / -travel power (like Tar Patch), but something like disruption arrow or RoF is pretty laughable in PvP IMO.

6. Whilst the Forum PvP community is something im ambivilent about... they do very little to attract people to PVp from PvE for instance, they have generally refrained from the outright rudeness, arrogance, and all round horridness I have encountered in the zones. I have had the sum total of one freindly chat in a PvP zone ever. The best I hope for is silence or neutrality. However, the talk is generally entirely offputting.

I should probably have explicitly said that I was considering the PvP community actually online than the community. I shall remain silence about the PvP community online whose manner is variable. Suffice to say you are an exemplar to them, SS.

Well I have to disagree with some of what you said, Scarlet. In particular, I feel issue 13 is a step in the right direction.

For what its worth, this is what would tempt me:

1. Arena option "Disable invetion bonuses". That means I can have a cheap PvP second build without fartarsing about farmiing to be viable. This is a fairly straightforward intervention.

2. Phase Shift. (and other escape powers). Nerf them to the point of complete uselessness please.

3. Offensive Toggles. Make me laugh. Now you these get detoggled every 3 or 4 seconds it makes things like radiation infection useless. Supress them, dont detoggle.

4. Buff the effects of AoE powers by 50% stat.

5. Buff the effects of placable AoEs by 100%

6. PVP community attitude replacement.

There, that lot will help.

From my perspective:

1. Im not entering PvP until they nerf Phase Shift powers. Which, I understand, they do indeed intend to.

2. I have never, and still do not, buy into the mythology that Skill > Build in PvP. Build is paramount IMO. A lot of people bandy around the "fact" that skill is the only vital thing in PvP like it was a self-evident proposition. Its not.

If anything, it looks to me like new PvP is proportionally less about build and more about skill.

Please note: Proportionally. It may (or may not) be the case that Skill is, on an absolute level, more or less important.

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It's because cry baby PvE'ers couldn't be bothered with practising at PvP and moaned for years that PvP was broken. Now the devs have given them it on a plate. The end.

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Hmmm. I can only imagine you have, and never had, any real interest in enticing PvE players to PvP with comments like that.

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I wonder if it's possible for them to add a "visual glowie" to the game? Like a little light beside the health and XP bar that pulses and grows bigger when you get closer to a glowie?

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Thats the best suggestion I have ever seen. Implement it, advertise it.

By my calculations, PRAF, 5 merits is 1.25 millioni inf. And thats with the most conservative estimate (i.e. complete at level 50 and a Miracle+Recovery is 50 million).

A story arc bonus is, admittedly, not HUGE, but its there.

There WILL be strain on PuG's in terms of arguments. Possibly minimal, i would concede.

However, is this a risk worth taking? Bear in mind that new players are likely to be PuG'ing when they start. Surely we want a system that encourages freindly, casual teaming. A strength of CoX.

You are quite right in pointing out that solo'ers need some way of getting merits. I just dont think the system, as it stands, is good.

Id leave out the discussion about how big a problem this will be. Its kind of irrelevant, even if its a tiny speck of a problem, if an elegant solution / alternative can be devised, thats a good thing, surely.

For instance, the previous concerns about STory Arc COmpletion rewards changed the system to 10% chance of drop at end of mission for everyone.

Incindentally, the 10% drop of a recipe at end of story arc is a different pool to the TF drops (AFDAIK) whilst you may get a reasonable recipe you wont get one of the superduper ones.

In an attempt to rerail this thread,

Could we keep the discussion to whether this is a problem?

FFM has a started a sensible thread on Training Room as to solutions.

Going back to the first, and useful, half of this thread I would summise...


1. 5 Merits = 1.25 million inf. The rewards for completing story arcs now far exceed previous levels.
2. It is almost inevitable this will cause "Story Arc Completion" fighting amongst PuGs (or even freinds), and encourage soloing, although the degree is debatable.
3. Removing the completion of story Arc bonuses deprives solo players (or those who play extremely casually) of any oppurtunity to earn merits. This is undesirable.

Any solution should entail:

1. Limiting or aboloshing selective merit awards to story arc completer.
2. Keep some mechanism for solo players (or those who dont TF/SF) to earn merits.
3. Keep some balance within the Merits system; i.e. not make them too easy or too hard to obtain.

I know many people wont mind, but I suspect some will.

Perviously the relatively small xp bonus and an SO would be nothing to shout about.

However, 5 merits would count towards (say) 2.5% of a Miracle +Recovery Recipe. They go for about 50 million at bare minimum. 5 merits is thus around 1.25 million influence. Thats an awful lot more than the aproximate bonus of around 100k tops you get at the moment. And thats just considering level 50.

To my mind a reasonable solution would be 1 merit to every team member completing the last mission of the arc.

Ouroborous missions, keep the same system.

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You know... Many many moons ago, before the advent of the Inventions system, people said EXACTLY THE SAME THING about recipes. That it would kill team play and encourage people to be selfish. Well, you know what? That didn't actually happen, did it?

I do think it would be nice if everyone on the team got a merit for mission completion; but maybe you could have it as a mission parameter? You get a merit for completion, or you get the mission bonus XP...

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When IOs came out the original plan was to give a drop for completion of story arc. That was changed to 10% chance of a drop at end of every mission. I think the reason was *precisly* this concern; there would be squabbling over who does the story arcs.

There really can be no doubt that story arc bonuses will in increase PuG squabbling and encourage soloing. THe only question is how much.

I am sure there are some solutions. There should be some way in which a solo toon can get the odd merit or three without teaming. E.g. halving the bonus but letting anyone on the final mission get the bonus. Making the merit bonus Ouroborous only.

I just think the system as it stands it throwing a barb into one standout strength of CoX. And its addressable.

I have a concern here. One of CoX's strengths has always been the laid-backness towards teams. You dont need to plan raids, be a certain AT / sets. You can just log on, join a PuG and have some(normally) freindly fun.

If merits are going to be dishes out for completing story arcs, I can see this coming under severe strain. Either people will choose just to solo, or people will start arguing about whose story arc to do.

I know that technically you could all agree to do simu-runs of story arcs, but in practice even with a regular team this is difficult.

Personally, I would plead for these rewards to be removed. It potentially threatens one of CoX's strengths, for scant benefit.