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Posts
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Quote:Loyalist: Emperor Cole has confiscated your eggs for the good of the state. Please enjoy some delicious LoyaltyBacon*: all that great bacon taste, plus an extra helping of Loyalty!Loyalist: Consume the most important meal of the day and praise Emperor Cole for such delicious eggs.
*What, were you expecting a footnote about chemical additives? Such thoughts indicate possible danger to your well-being, Citizen. Place the bacon on the ground and lie on your stomach with your arms at your sides. A breakfast associate will arrive shortly to collect you for your breakfast. -
I like eating breakfast at Seer 925's restaurant. She always knows what I want.
Alternate joke:
Why are you skipping breakfast? Don't you know how hard I worked to cook that meal just for you? MOTHER LOVES YOU. -
Quote:Actually, it's forcing him to say whatever he thinks will make the torture stop. Anecdotal evidence from the survivors of torture (as reported to those who work with them professionally) unanimously agrees that, while being tortured, the victim will say absolutely anything they think their captors want to hear. Scientific evidence on the issue is far less available (for reasons to do with scientific ethics) but no more encouraging for the proponents of so called "coercive interrogation."Smacking some terrorist in an interrogation chamber while asking him where the rest of the terrorist cell he's a part of is hiding isn't forcing him to day something you prepared or want him to say. It's getting information and it's a long standing tradition in plenty of nations (including the US!) which is only recently being mitigated to any degree.
Everything available suggests that -- despite the depictions of media AND the dictates of common sense -- torture is one of the less effective means of gathering intelligence. This has been known for decades, as far back as the KUBARK interrogation manuals of 1963. The Intelligence Science Board (part of the CIA) recently compiled a detailed report on the subject entitled Educing Information, concluding against the use of torture as a means of gathering intelligence.
It's also worth noting that the proponents of torture typically invoke the "ticking bomb" scenario as a situation that justifies torture. The Third Reich had a program of "enhanced interrogation" which they only used against non-uniformed combatants, in what they perceived as time-sensitive situations, with command oversight, and using methods to ensure that no lasting physical harm was caused to the victim.
This program was prosecuted as a war crime at Nuremberg. I realize that its value as precedent is suspect, being an alternate dimension and all, but it bears mentioning nonetheless. -
Quote:I don't know that we've had any canon information posted on Praetoria's naturalization procedures, but as long as the hair-splitting has started:The point remains the same.
Your mother was not born a Spanish Citizen living in the US. She was born an American citizen.
We're in agreement on that fact, right? Not on my initial gender assumptions, but the point of the matter. She was born in the US and is a citizen of the US not of Spain or France or Zimbabwe. But the US.
If she was born in Spain she would not be a US citizen. By the same token, a person born in Praetoria isn't an American, but is a Praetorian.
-Rachel-
Only if Praetoria recognizes jus soli as a source of citizenship. This is by no means absolute -- even in the modern era, not even half the countries in the world follow the lex soli. Jus sanguinis and others are still alive and well. -
I've been pretty clear where my sympathies rest. I'm no great fan of either faction, because even the moderates of those factions allow the extremists to thrive.
However, by personal philosophy, I tend more towards the Resistance. Having avidly read a great many of the loyalist/resistance debates since GR, I find myself looking towards the extremists in my own faction and cringing in response.
So to the extent that I consider myself an out-of-game member of the Resistance (a Forum Warden, if you will), I wish to distance myself from those who can only be identified with Forum Crusaders. Our distaste for the regime may be similar, but that's where the likeness ends.
Fallacies of relevance do not support our cause. And simply IGNORING compelling arguments is just embarrassing. Some of these posts are every bit as cringe-worthy as Ricochet's nadsat speak. -
It's interesting, because no matter where my characters begin (ideologically) in Praetoria, they tend to wind up in the same position, which is effectively Atlas Shrugged.
I'm not leaving for Primal to pave the way for the invasion or to extend the hand of diplomacy. I'm leaving because I want OUT of that madhouse, and once I'm through that portal, to hell with showboating Powers, enabling Responsibility, insane Crusaders, and complicit Wardens. -
Quote:A lot of this is why, while I may occasionally talk villain-talk on the forum about Longbow being stormtroopers, etc, at the end of the day, the only question in Praetoria is (to phrase it in X-Files speak) "Resist or serve?" I have no great love for the Crusaders and to be honest, I think the Wardens have their share of the culpability, too, because they consent to those acts they don't commit.You all cling to a life of slavery so strongly. You see death as the ultimate harm. I do not. We will all die. We're mortal (Cole isn't, but then that's part of the problem).
The life you lead before inevitable death is more important than just being alive. We aren't cockroaches. Life is more than staying alive. I can only hope you all are RPing here and you don't really believe what you're saying. You dishonor the founders of this great nation and their fight for liberty.
There are worse things than death. Look at the Seers -- that's not HUMAN, that's not even ALIVE. That's machinery. The end result of Tyrant's ideology, with every person a very literal part of his machine. Tyrant will never be satisfied as long as there exists one free person to resist him. That's the nature of tyranny. Fear garbed in power, relying on more fear to generate power.
Tyrant will continue eliminating the people on the edges of his utopia and when the people who are now comfortable middle-of-the-road become the new "edge," he'll go after them, too. He'll continue this until he and Praetor Last One Standing are the only two beings on the planet (and possibly multiverse) and then he'll start thinking, "Hey, they're up to SOMETHING!"
The thing Tyrant counts on is that people are more scared of the unknown than they are of him. So long as he can garb himself in the cloak of being the lesser evil (to Hamidon, to Primal Earth, to anarchy), people will opt for him out of comfort. Tyrant's real superpower isn't flight or strength or nuketanking, it's his ability to convince otherwise good people to serve him out of fear or (worse) a misguided sense of righteousness (Kang, who rides the road marked "sacrifice for the good of the regime" all the way to its logical conclusion)
Evil only has the power you give it. Sorry, Cole, you're just going to have to kill me, because while I might not blow up a hospital to stop you, I'll never bend the knee. -
Like the henchman said, "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus!"
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Interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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I'm a little confused as to the objectives of this project and was hoping someone here could enlighten me.
Lohenien was discussing it on Guardian and when I inquired, I was informed that the goal was "to act as a delation force on the market." Then it became that a group of market people would be destroying 300 billion to do "the same thing." I then wandered into this thread, and when I raised the issue, Lohenien suggested that he (or she) was acting to deflate the market, while everyone else (presumably this thread) was just acting to infuriate the role-playing crowd on Virtue.
So, at any rate, I don't really understand the goal of this project and would appreciate a little insight. If it is just trolling, well, not really my thing, but that's at least comprehensible to me. If there's an economic force behind it, I'd definitely enjoy more explanation. -
Well, and the other thing that seems so random about it as an explanation is that as a thematic element, it's already IN THE GAME. Jezebel Jones. It's clearly not as taboo as the urban legendeers would have us believe.
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That's really what I'm suggesting. The "pimp issue" (for want of a better phrase) is simply one of those CoX urban legends. Everyone can recite it but no one can just CITE it.
The legal arguments (such as they are) underpinning it are nonsensical at best. People say "it's a legal issue," and I say "under what theory?" No one has ever been able to offer one in response (it is this tort, it is negligence, it falls afoul of this criminal statute, etc). -
Quote:To borrow from The Prisoner (a show I think about a lot in general and while playing in Praetoria in particular):Ignorance is strength, citizen - strength to do what must be done - for the greater good.
Quote:Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison to oneself. Quote:A still tongue makes a happy life. -
The Praetoria arcs are railroading, sure, but at least they present SOME choice. That puts them vastly ahead of most of the arcs on Primal Earth in my book (once again, looking at you, Ghost Widow arc!).
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Quote:I didn't say it had to be from the forum. I listed a number of possible alternatives. A recognizable chatlog from one of the events should suffice nicely.It was said once during the Anniversary even ingame with all the Devs. And yes it is hard to go this is what they have said. The devs are very good about giving vague answers or sticking there foot in there mouth. The Devs say alot of things out side of the dang forums dude.
It's curious, though. If I wanted to know what Statesman said about no more nerfs to powers, well, everyone has that on file. Positron saying no market merge, sure. CuppaJo talking about being unable to do anything wrong or right, check. BaBs discussing the inherent difficulties with power customization? Ditto.
People take such care to index every word written by every developer or community rep, largely so that the Powers can be called to account for them later. Every equivocation or teasing hint or inconsistency cataloged for posterity. And yet on THIS issue -- where the developers have supposedly said "many times" what their position is, suddenly the well of Holy Writ runs dry. It has passed into the realm of conventional wisdom, yet no one bothered to grab a screen shot -- despite the efforts that people have made to, say, copy down every developer statement made during the Silver Age party or the Valentine's Day event or Statesman's Strike.
I'm simply not willing to take it on faith, that's all. In my line of work, I'm not allowed that luxury. Unsupported allegations gets the parties in the door, but much beyond that. I was similarly skeptical of the notion that "German law" meant the Fifth Column had to be removed from the game.
I'm prepared to be wrong on this issue. I'm just looking for something more concrete than "someone said it somewhere but no one bothered to screencap, you totally have to trust me on this." I'm not asking you, personally, to provide such proof -- you've already indicated you're unable to do so and it seems evident you find my skepticism irritating at best. -
Quote:Then it should be easy to find something to cite. That's what I'm asking: where's the evidence?People have asked. It has been asked ingame to the devs many many many times. I have seen a few times where they said NO.
Quote:The point is there is legal issues with having pets female.
Quote:You can name them whatever you want at a whim, make them do whatever you want them to do. The fact that you have control over a female that isn't supposed to be you is a issue.
Quote:It is safe to say Devs know better then to open that can of worms and have stated many times NO. If they ever do it they will do it. Quit beating the zombified horse.
My post -- which you seem to misunderstood -- is asking for evidence. It is popularly perceived as the official developer standpoint. You're asserting it as an accepted fact. I'm asking for affirmative proof of the point. If they've said it so many times, hook me up with a redname post to that extent. Developer Q&A. Interview. Transcript of podcast.
It's not a difficult inquiry. A poster asserted "this is what the developers have said." And I'm asking "where did they say it?" -
Quote:I've only ever seen this standpoint attributed to the devs, never backed up with a post or anything. It seems to be the commonly accepted view, but no one has ever provided evidence to support the contention.I can't argue with you there, but the Devs are adamant about this.
We have GMs in the game who regulate content. If you make an offensive character, the GMs randomize name/description/costume/etc. Why would MMs with their pets be any different? Why would THIS ONE ISSUE be a sticking point for the devs as a bar to creating new content when they already have a system in place to remedy it?
And moreover, where have the developers ever said it? -
Quote:I am simultaneously excited and terrified. My initial glee was immediately followed up by the following Hypothetical Patch Notes:Inherent Fitness.
I...don't know how I feel about that. Part of me says yay, part of me is now wary that there's a catch.
Quote:*All four powers in the fitness pool are inherent for all characters.
*Increased endurance cost for all powers.
*Increased damage for all enemies.
*Reduced run speed for all characters.
*Reduced jump height for all characters. -
No prayers needed, as always SCIENCE! will save the day. Break out the old weather machine and let's ramp that badboy up to a Category 5 before we force it to make landfall in Paragon.
Why stop at Category 5? Saffir and Simpson were like cave slugs - slimy and without vision. They called me mad when I proposed Category 6! Said it was impossible, that no storm could ever be that powerful. But when I looked at the Great Red Spot of Jupiter I knew it could be done! They said my Non-Euclidian Astraoscillator Interface went too far, but I'll show them, I'll show them all! -
Once again, Pretoria is located in South Africa.
Praetoria is in an alternate dimension, somewhere over the ruins of America. -
Absolutely! He's a favorite of mine. Even though the arc has you being his Igor, he's so well-written that the arc is enjoyable. He didn't try to browbeat me or belittle me, he just said, "Hey, buddy, let's do some SCIENCE."
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Quote:If an arc ended that way, I would consider it a monumental disappointment. It would vindicate his whole "I'm the boss of you" attitude.Especially if then at a later date you need his expertise to quell a more dangerous demonic invasion.
Taken as a whole, his character amounts to "St. Martial is my town, and no one gets to have fun in it without my say so." If the Wailers want to break open the Giza, they have to get through Hardcase. If VV wants to paint the town red, Hardcase puts a stop to it.
That arc in particular is a large part of why (I think) he's so reviled. Because you're off causing havoc and mayhem and then he steps in and puts you in time out. And you immediately comply -- you're given no choice to do anything else. He's the sheriff and once he gives you a stern talking-to, the funtimes stop. It's bad enough that every time you turn around in the Isles you're given a reminder that you only exist at Lord Recluse's sufferance, but at least you're given the CHANCE to put the hurt on Arachnos. Hardcase just... sends you to your room.
I consider that wholly antithetical to the spirit of CoV. My typical visit to Paragon involves several hundred police officers shouting at me to stop and me stepping over their broken bodies en route to the bank. Part of being a villain is that you get to DECIDE which laws (if any) apply to you. "No, I will not stop robbing the bank." "Yes, I think I will perform this experiment anyway." "I don't care what Mother Nature says, I'm putting octopus arms on that chimpanzee."
I'm willing to accept a certain curtailing of freedom because it's a persistent MMO and everyone has to live there. I ACKNOWLEDGE that my villains will never be allowed to crash the Moon into the Earth/summon Azathoth/force the nations of the world to submit. I can accept that I should fight the Rikti because I can't rule a world that they'd destroyed. Hardcase (and Arbiter Daos in the Patron arcs) exceed that suspension-of-disbelief. They forcibly remind me that I'm reciting the lines that someone else has written and there's no room for me to put my own spin on things.
I'm normally a big fan of the writing in the game. Some of it I think is great (much of Praetoria); some is very strong (Automatic Villainy; parts of the Grandville material); some is just okay (a lot of the old blueside content). But I consider Hardcase and Arbiter Daos in the Patron arcs outright failures. It's railroading of the worst kind and I'd hate to see more. -
Quote:That's one of those things I strongly doubt we'll ever see happen. Not that I don't like the story possibilities that could come out of it, but...Since the phasing tech allows contacts to disappear from the world, I think the Red side Patron Arcs should have an option to destroy your patron and take their place, and from then on they'd be "gone" if you went to where they were.
The world belongs to the signature characters. We're allowed to have our own adventures in it, but outshine one of the signature characters? Never. We can occasionally aspire to be on par with them (at least that's what the game tells us -- you'll never see that concept in action), but replace them? That'll be the day. -
I think the Malta arcs really have potential. One of the great things about Praetoria is the pull that different factions have on you. You have your handlers wanting you to do one thing and the opposite faction trying you to go deep cover and sometimes those goals align and sometimes you're just being set up for the fall... That's what the Malta arcs should be -- these people will stop at nothing to control you, and if you want to help Indigo and Crimson fight them, how far are you willing to go? Would you let a bus of schoolchildren go over a cliff if it meant stopping them from completing a Kronos Titan? Because they'd sure be willing to put the schoolchildren there to get you out of the way. Would you let a gunslinger walk free if he threatened to kill a hostage? That's what I think it should be -- Malta forcing you into situations where you have to make the call, and then dealing with the fallout from that, plus having to work around whatever shady tactics are in the game due to the Color Coded Spy Agency.
A lot of the villain arcs need work -- so many of them are constructed with the concept of your character as the thug or the hired muscle. That's great, except what we're seeing now is that's really the province of the Rogue, not the Villain. The cloning factory was a great start. Even though I didn't have many choices to make in that arc, the fact that I was assembling my own factory was a pleasant change. I've always wanted more of that... let me rally my Legion of Discourtesy and ransom the moon! (I initially got into a long discussion here on the problems with the alignment system/tip missions now, but excised it for focus.)
Since CoV launched, I've maintained that my absolute least-favorite remains Hardcase. He's an example of the worst railroading tendencies of the game. I realize that not every mission can offer me KOTOR choices, but... I still feel like I went to CoV promised a more "active" (as opposed to heroic "reactive") role, and I really just got "go flunky for me." I think I could actually ENJOY Hardcase if I were subverting his work in the Praetorian mode. While he's trying to quell the demon's, I'm secretly working to get them even more riled up, and his efforts get increasingly desperate as nothing works, culminating in me... I don't know, forcing him into a binding circle and getting him dragged down to You-Know-Where to meet all his old foes. That would be a VERY welcome change. I imagine some people would feel the same way about subverting Phipps. Or Kelly Uqua (because, really, who is falling for that act?).
Ghost Widow has already come up, too, and that was one of the most disappointing arcs for me -- I was enjoying everything about it and then comes authorial fiat and now I have no choice but to enforce the status quo. I remember discussing the frustration of this arc with Samuel_Tow back in Issue 7, and my disagreements with it remain. I think most of the patrons suffer from the inherent problem of CoV's setting -- it can never decide if you're just gunning to sit next to Recluse at the grown-up's table or if you yourself are trying to RULE THE WORLD.
And then the VEAT arcs. The first VEAT I made, I did a mission for Alan Desslock and enjoyed it. One mission and then... come back at level 5? I waited six issues FOR THIS? And that summed up the entirety the VEAT storyline. I really wanted to like it but (and I do not say this lightly) every moment of that story felt phoned in and perfunctory.
I would also like to see "hunt" missions replaced with the new Praetorian badge mechanic. If you're dead sent on it, have us hunt 20 "points" worth of Lost, where minions count as 1 and bosses as 3. Personally, I'd rather do away with hunts entirely, or at least give us the opportunity to handle them in a scanner/paper mission. -