Charnell

[ QUOTE ]
I just have enough of ppl saying other chars are overpowered in pvp, when at the same time they say they can take on 3 players at once with their toons and think thats ok.

If i want other sets nerfed cause i see them overpowered and my char does just fine vs 3 players i at least admit that my char is op too.

Thats what i mean its always the others that are op not the own char.
But it has been like that in all games all times so i shouldnt wonder.

How often do you see players saying the sets they play the most are op ? Very rarely

How often do you see players crying for nerfs of other classes they dont play ? Very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for starters I think SS is way OP atm. And SURPRISE I have a SS brute.
I have an ice/em tanker. I think the nerf to em was needed at the time.
Why is regen OP? Where are the legions of ppl claiming this? There are plenty of sets that can survive against 3 opponents. Stalkers anyone??? All you really need are some defence, a heal and phase.

Scrappers have the damage but it is all melee bar one set and it is all S/L. Back on topic a fort/NW while not having attacks that can rival the big hitters from scrapper sets can easily build an attack chain that out classes all scrapper sets imo. They can build attack chains mixing long range attacks and melee attacks that hit any AT hard. The psi attacks expecially can be devastating due to the spike as they hit at almost the same time. Add on Forts mezzes that can still cause problems.

So as to your claims - My Scrapper can survive but it is a LOT harder to land that chain on anyone at the same time. BS's heaviest attack is awkward to land if you opponent doesnt stay still. While NW/Forts can survive just as well and pepper their opponents with powerful attacks without having to close with their opponents.

So no regen scrappers arent op imo. Maybe spines/regen could be argued but I feel overall scrappers are close to working as intended.
Being pedantic is no substitute for reasoned discussion.

I13 is very unbalanced. Most people have resigned themselves to the devs vision but want the obvious and biggest imbalances cleaning up.

Top problems imo -
Defence
Widows/Forts
Super Strength
Mobs in Zones

I have super strength and defence sets on toons I pvp with. And FYI i tend to not use them atm because i feel they are OP.
In fact I was using my PB yesterday and killed a brute in a duel :P
But as soon as the widows/forts got up to 3 or more I had to change as the incoming damage was just too much.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hm charnell you say forts and widows are op, but at the same time you say you have no probs with your BS/regen against 3 players as long as they are no widows or forts.

No problem against 3 players while able to deal damg sounds op to me too.

How come you dont think your op and just the widows or forts are because they can kill you ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm Moghedien you say lots of stupid things and argue so hard for the sake of arguing that you basically start arguing with yourself.

Hilarious but should be nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you be so kind to point out where i was wrong with my comment instead of just trolling ?:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup you done caught me out. Well done. Im glad you cleared it all up.

So thats it. Conclusive proof that widows/forts are not op. Further, due to some excellent diligence we have discovered that regens are op!!!!

And all it took was one man with a mission to fit the facts to his theory!!

TOP MARKS!!

NEWSFLASH- Ignore previous statement. Was based on the false assumption that a scrapper wasnt supposed to have high survivability second only to tankers. And widows/forts obv.

Has nobody factored in elusivity?>
Blasters and defenders dont get elusivity?

So a scrapper in elude does get a powerful bonus to his defence while a blaster in pff just has basic defense?

I am still not totally up to date with elusivity but I thought this was the case?

Do VEATs get elusivity too?

[ QUOTE ]
IMO its potentially a very good change in PvP. You have to see it in the context of

a) Mez now is of very short duration, a couple of seconds max

b) Mez protection powers now function as Mez resistance. And the resistance cap is sky high. So your Mez toggle now reduces a mez from 2 to 1 second (for instance).

c) Purely defensive toggles carry on working even when Mez.

Overall,I like it. There is one huge problem IMO, in that Offensive toggles (like snowstorm for instance) are now gimptastic as they are detoggled almsot as quickly as you put them on.

To my mind, the simple solution of making Mez's NOT detoggle an offensive power but make them non-functional (like a PvE mez does to a sheild, for instance) would plaster up the last crack in this approach.

On a nice note, it is no longer required to enter a PvP zone with 20 break frees

[/ QUOTE ]

Well no as BFs dont do anything.
I agree that the change is good in a lot of ways. Unfortunately nobody seemed to mention this to the mobs in zones. They still work as previous to i13.
So their mezzes are still old school. Very common in RV to be scrapping with some villains who just happen to run through a load of spiders then, BANG your tanker is mezzed for upwards of 7-8 seconds.

Just not good enough in my opinion and another example of how short sighted and ham fisted the majority of the i13 pvp changes were.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the truth of the matter is u wont see the full nature of i13's demise until the q1 fy 2009 is realease as i13 was only realeased on the 2nd of dec

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't realise PvP'ers made up that substantial portion of the playerbase?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not but but if you lose a portion of players who lets face it ran most of the farms so they could get there latest pvp toon up. Plus the majority of pvp players had more than 1 account (1 I know had 5). So you may hanve a limited number of players leave but you could say between 2 times or 3 times that number of accounts. So if you say PvPers them selves are only 5% of the population, but infact could hold 10% of the accounts (just an example as no real way of knowing the exact number), But this is realy just the tip of the iceberg as PvPer's have friends who don't class them selves as PvPer's but team with members of that community. Who see friends leave then decide it's time to go and so on. If a clearly dedicated bunch as the PvPer's were decide to leave then the knock on effect isn't just felt with in that groupe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would still be incredibly surprised if those that did unsubscribe totalled any significant numbers.

The fact that they implemented such sweeping changes to get more people to PvP tells us just how relatively small the dedicated PvP population is/was.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with the PvP changes, is its pretty clear that they wheren't Positron's idea, or Castle's idea.

NCSoft top managment looked at the figures for CoX, saw that PvP only nade up a small proportion of the player base, and , being entirely mired in the mentality of the Korean market, said "Oh look, CoX PvP must be broken. NorCal, you better fix that, as it is bound to increase subscribers by 30%". So Positron and Castle where forced to make changes in an attempt to fix the utterly unfixable. And if something is unfixable, then any changes will inevitably make it worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always suspected as much too. PvP is big time over that side of the world.

But again that is the perogative of NC and forced or not Posi and Castle would have done a lot better to listen to the experienced players feedback way back into closed beta. But instead they took a dismissive attitude towards those players as spelled out by lighthouses fateful post.
I disagree that it was unfixable more that it was basically impossible to achieve the stated goals. PvP by its nature tends toward the more involved players. To expect the current players to embrace an equally broken but dumbed down version was wildly unrealistic.

So I do agree with you PRAF. If they werent prepared or capable of doing the job correctly they really shouldnt have bothered. Or maybe actually employed somebody with experience in pvp to oversee the changes. Or listened to the players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
extermus dont always believe everything u read if u do then u are indeed foolish (if i believe everything on these boards, then id beleive that these forums are in constant state of war between the realist and idealist (oh wait they are /em sracthes head))

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I don't. It's a well known fact that the subscriber numbers aren't stellar (even stateside) and that no server goes in to max capacity, not even Freedom.

From what you're spewing forth someone'd think that the PvP changes and the way they were handled were as bad as the ED/GDN situation.

News flash: Not even close.

Even if there's a significant subscriber drop I'd put a lot more money on it being because of a lack of any serious content in I13 than the PvP overhaul. But hey, y'know, that's just my brain using common sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Admittedly it may well be a trivial number. But did you see the 50+ page long threads on US forum where every single post was ppl stating how many accounts they were cancelling?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, the report for the last quarter should be out any day now...

[/ QUOTE ]
Independent sources indicate that it's within the next 4 days. Or is it today?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just been checking it out, and it looks like it's definitely tomorrow. The Investor Relations part of the NCSoft website has the '4Q FY 2008 Earnings Conference Call' event listed for tomorrow morning.

So, sudden and apparently unexpected cuts in staff, days before an earnings report released on Friday 13th. I don't think it's going out on a limb to predict that it might not be a good earnings report...

[/ QUOTE ]

Less than the 6% last year perhaps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if they will mention how popular the i13 pvp revamp was?
Hehe, probably trivial in truth but would be funny if they did.

Or maybe pvp has has attained a macbeth level of notoriety in CoX circles. Devs cross themselves, "We dont speak of such things". They certainly dont in public anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any word what's gonna happen to us?

[/ QUOTE ]

Afraid you'll all need to be patient to find out what happens with regards CoH in Europe. A whole helluva lot changed yesterday, and it's going to take some time for the folks at NCNC to formulate their plans going forward.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's appreciated that this is no longer your prime concern, GR, and not of your doing in the first place.

That said, I'd have hoped NCNC would have formulated their plans in advance, and have them ready to announce when the brown stuff hit the air shifter.

I'm getting the impression the bigwigs were down the pub Monday night and drew up plans along the lines of "we'll close the Brighton Office tomorrow, and when that's done...erm, we'll wing it".

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a brief heads up GR.

And yes it all smacks of a very ruthless management tactic. These chops and cuts are purely business moves and most probably made by people who never have or will ever play a computer game. They have little or no interest in the customers beyond the nitty gritty numbers they see on statements and reports.

I only hope that the staff who do actually care about us customers arent too jaded by these cuts and fight for the best solution for us as customers.

Unfortunately on the evidence of the NC overlords current actions I can only assume the worst. The easiest and cheapest option would most probably be to simply shut the eu servers and offer refunds or time on the us servers. In the wake of such sweeping cuts and potential job losses I cant see the huge amount of work being supported in server moves or merges.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...onfirms-ncsoft

Confirmation statements from NCSoft.

Well NCSoft seem to be making statements to websites etc.
What about us customers?

Well I did tell you that lol.
I play a regen scrapper in RV most days.

Tough will give u a 2-3% res boost. It isnt worth spitting on.

Welcome to i13 pvp. Please leave logic and common sense at the door.

[ QUOTE ]
looking at mids though, is dull pain worth it? i mean its a nice heal but the recharge is awful.

slotted without hasten, its still 180 seconds recharge. thats a really long time for a heal.

also how important would you say aid self would be with regen? i know its the pool power but with reconstuction, thats still a 30 second cooldown without hasten on when slotted. where as aid self can be used every 10 seconds, im having trouble fitting in all the pool powers at the minute.

so far ive got worked in, fitness, fighting, leaping and concealment.

the worry i have, is because im going to have low resists, il drop hp faster than the heal recharges so il be stuck. how often does this happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL come on, aid self on a regen??
Dull Pain is must have power. The heal is nice but the +HP is the main part.
Fighting pool isnt much use to a regen either. Main problem is widows/forts for getting spiked and fighting pool is useless for that.

I get by fine with MoG, Dull Pain, Phase and reconstruction. Pools I have are concealment, fitness, Speed and leaping. And weapon mastery.
It would be nice to get tactics as well as FA if possible as defence is so broken still. Webnade I have found still very effective.

As ever with regen you have to stay focused on your survival. It has always been that way. Be aware of what powers are up and running at all times. I prefer to fire off Dull Pain at about 75% health. Then maybe MoG to give the heal suppression time to drop. Then reconstruction. And if I am still taking a lot of damage I will fire phase and retreat.

I can take heat from about 3 enemies usually while still being able to inflict damage. Again that survivability goes out of the window if a fort/widow turns up as they can seriously punish you.

And another big problem is therms with heat exhaustion. They can really ruin your day.

Yeh its ok. Think they changed how heal suppression worked on it.

I have been playing mine a lot and its ok. Dropped IH as it was useless, might be better now tho.

Just gotta watch with mezzes clearing your queued powers all the time.

Still pretty depressing tho if you use both your click heals to close together. Try and leave as long between them as u can get away with.

Oh and obv get phase. Dont even bother without it.

MoG is ok. Good for jumping into a MM swarm. Useless against the swarms of widows/forts tho. And use it when your opponents are constantly forcing you to attack them near spiders in RV.

Tbh the only real time i get killed on mine is because of mobs or heavies with the stupid mezzes.

So frustrating when some lame heavy hits you with a 10 second mez and 1700pts of damage. But that is our new super balanced pvp for you.

Why dont we just settle this? Go duel Max's therm.

I think in any melee vs Max he will win.

Anyone else noticing this power activation thing in pvp? All powers seem to activate way after you click them? Noticeable with attacks. I can jump and stand right next to an enemy but nothing happens for like half a second.

Very noticeable with things like Energy absorption. I have to make sure i have been stood next to them for at least a second before i activate.

May be some network thing but I have zero lag problems in pve atm. And i can swith to pve from this activation thing and it is fine.

Therm is worse than a kin. Kins end drain comes in chunks and is easier to mitigate. Dangerous but I find them more annoying than deadly.
Once that crackling sound starts when I am in RV I just run directly to a safe place. And wait what feels like a lifetime to get my end back.

I know.
Your thermy was fearsome pre i13 and still damn powerful :P

[ QUOTE ]
Well fire/ss cannot get end protection like some sets out there, but I would expect anyone going up against anything elec or therm to pack blues.

The therm will only have perma HE if they survive until the tank runs out of blues which may be over 7 mins into the fight. If a fire/ss tank cannot kill a corr in that time then they have more to worry about than their endurance.

If the tank does kill the corr in that time then the corr's chance to have perma HE is severely depleated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heat Exhaustion will just drain their end. Add the Elec attacks. Pop blues like mad it wont stop it. With just hasten you can have HE up every 44 seconds. Shaving those last 4 seconds off will hardly cost the earth?

And even the two sets with end protection would struggle. Dark gets 86% protection? Mids has HE at 276.8% -recovery.
And forget your arbitrary 7 minute figure. Imagine the rage crash with HE on you all the time. And every single attack by the therm is draining end away.

Also at any point the therm gets in a bad place he just hiber/phases. The tanker has no option to do this. Even if they had picked phase its useless without end.

There are always exceptions to the rule. A good player can overcome the odds with forethought and skill. Well less so in i13 but still possible. But a fire/ss tank vs an elec/therm corr is a very one sided battle. A heavily slotted tanker may well be able to get by with huge recovery bonuses but if the therm is heavily slotted too with say +rech and a load of defence imo it would be a foregone conclusion.

Oh didnt know that one Callista.

And yeh I know about missions like that Gaias but they were standard radio missions and the rest of the team got the exit button.

How do you work that out chilli?
Heat loss then stay alive for the short amount of time till his end is completely gone, kill him. Repeat. If he counters by popping Geas etc just phase then repeat.

Anything that isnt high defence is going to have a hard time keeping enough end to do anything surely?
What have i missed?

Just tried on my regen scrapper and got held for at least 6 seconds. Way more than a dominator can hit me with.

No they still mez for 10s.
As of last night anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Huh, im not gonna get into a big discussion here but i like the changes. A lot. I hardly ever PvP'd pre i13, and i hardly ever PvP now. But when i do it now i enjoy it more, less extreme. I still die, i still get owned by some but it feels like i got a chance and its more fun. Its no longer a blaster sees me and Aim, Bu, two (or one) shots me. And i like the healing supression.

I dont know all the changes and i might not like them all, if i knew them, but for the first time since i started playing CoX im seriously considering PvP on a regular basis. So i like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I appreciate that in some instances it can feel that you are more survivable in i13. But by your own admission you had little experience of i12 pvp. Well I imagine one of the reasons you felt it is now less extreme is that the zones are less populated and a lot of the regular pvp'ers have left the game or stopped pvp'ing.
I dont want to slap you with my experience but I did pvp quite regular pre i13 and have started to again post i13 and imo it can be a lot harsher. The really nasty builds have started to proliferate such as widows and sharks and super strength. Stalkers can hit you for 700+ damage from range with the horrible shark attack. Widows and forts can pour out a lot of uncommonly resisted damage, eclipsing even stalkers damage output. And super strength partnered with a defence set makes a very powerful character.

On top of the other players there are the npc's which in RV are almost EB like with their old school mezzes.

I have never argued that i12 pvp didnt have some problems. And like you say blasters could feel very powerful and perma dominators that I must admit i hated. But there were counters to practically every problem in i12 due to teaming just like the pve game.

You may like i13 pvp from your limited experience of it but the obvious truth is that it has been a dismal and unpopular failure. Evidenced by the devs complete public blackout since release and a us community dev losing his job.
There were good ideas put into i13 with the best intentions by the devs but it seems they were too insistent on unpopular ideas and continued to ignore the experienced pvp player base throughout closed beta to live.

Sorry for ripping into your opinions but I have my own too.
And ultimately there is still fun to be had in i13 pvp. Its always good to see new faces coming into the zones . I am in RV a lot and hope to see you there :P

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting thread.

Firtly, anybody, elite or new player who makes a mistake should not be persecuted. Quite frankly, nobody should bat an eyelid.

At a certain point repeated mistakes can edge into what can appear to be greifing. But I dont think your freind is getting anywhere near that, unless Im mising the mark. For instance, a scrapper repeatedly charging off solo and dragging a mob towards the rest of the team screaming "HEAL" (a classic) will start to annoy anybody.

As for builds, this is an interesting problem. I hold my hand up; I glance at everybodys build. Not in depth (heaven forbid I dont look at their IO powers to see how "1337" they are) but just to get an idea of how to play with them. A storm defender makes things a lot different to an Empath (for instance).

But, I confess, there are builds that get my goat. If a tank hasnt got taunt or (as I have seen) a taunt aura, I get irritated. Is that elitist? Maybe. In all honesty, however, I also confess to thinking tht certain "builds" indicating (not proving) a lack of teamsmanship. If a build is all about "me me me" with no powers helping other players, then I have noticed a tendency for the player to play like that. I usually reserve judgement, but there it is.

Lastly, I want to bring up another more difficult point about builds. I remember my first toon, and building it pretty chaotically. Some helpful chap politely pointed out "Get Stamina as soon as possible".

And Im very glad he did.

When I see a new player, Im stuck in a dilema. On the one hand, I really dont want to patronise him/her by telling him/her what to get. On the other hand, a few key pointers (like GET STAMINA) can be really helpful. I dont know what other people think about this.

I suppose the dilema also applies to play, occassionally. I remember I was oncein a small team of new players, around level 5-8, who were sucking wind a lot. I noticed that they were all running sprint whilst fighting, and I suggested, politely, that its agood idea to turn that off whist fighting. One or two players got the hump and gave me an ear bashing.

So Im not talking about "ZOMG u n00b u have to slot flamethrower with two range and one accuracy" (or whatever). Stuff that. But a few very basic pointers can really make a difference to a toon, and possibly keep that player in the game. Dilema... Dilema....

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I had people point out things like stamina etc and it really helped me grasp the way to build at least a functional toon. I dont care what anyone says about concept a character that runs out of endurance half way through every mob just isnt fun to play.
The hard part is either imparting or recieving such advice without people taking it as an insult.

And while people have every right to play the game how they like the same applies to me. If I am playing a tanker and a stormy blows every single mob to the horizon I will ask them to either switch it off or use it responsibly. I dont care what names I get called but I always play for the team no matter what character I am playing. I enjoy doing everything I can to make a team work at its best. I dont expect the same from the other players but at the same time I do expect them to at least try. Kin fenders constantly spamming their weak attacks in a team full of blasters and having to constantly ask for a SB gets old pretty quick.

But in reference to the OP I just have never found elitism that common in PUGs. There may be the odd person but never a whole team. You may get someone who tells you that tankers are over-rated and irrelevant but just take it all with a pinch of salt. And for the truly obnoxious you can ignore or avoid just as easily.

Well thats basically what they made sharkers.. sry stalkers.