Cavatina

To be fair. we get crapload of inf whines or complaints about IOs anyhow. Still unhappy they merged the forums, though. ;/

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I know I said I was done with the topic, but I thought of something after I posted that. I just find it funny that about a year ago when I was new to brutes I posted a somewhat similar topic in the brute forum, and every single response was "oh yes, I know the feeling" or "yep, you got a hold of some really bad MMs". I think by posting it here I simply ticked off a bunch of MM players. :P


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Or, Y'now, you asked a much broader group than just the brute-centric players and got a different response.

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Can you get purps with merits? If so, then yes.

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If you could get purps with merits the prices on everything else would go even further out of control.

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Not necessarily. It could be something like 500 Merits a random Purple roll and 1000 merits a specific purple.

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even so,.,at least a few people would be even less likely to generate random recipes if they could generate random purples

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Can you get purps with merits? If so, then yes.

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If you could get purps with merits the prices on everything else would go even further out of control.

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The answer, as ever, is to give players a viable alternative to the market for getting IOs. Not a replacement, but a viable alternative.

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The problem is. said viable alternative has to be either 100% equal to, or lesser in efficiency to the market, or else the market dies.

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Look, I'm from New Jersey, you don't see me getting pushy, loud, or...

umm...

LOOK! AN OBVIOUS DISTRACTION!

*flees*

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shiny? where?!

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He's certainly not dispelling any myths about New Yorkers being self-absorbed, rude, conceited, or close-minded, thats for sure.

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Hey, hey! I'm in NYC too!

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Yes, but you dispel the myths and stereotypes. he seems to revel in them. >_>

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Lacrymosa: I've only encountered you in this thread.

You've made offers to physically meet and intimidate people.

You've decided that people who disagree with you are living in their parents basement.

You've decided that defending an imaginary market is less valuable than attacking it.

You've accused people of being childish.

You've blamed the school system for... something.

In fact, you've done just about everything except discuss the substance of any of the counterarguments people have offered.

I wasn't actually going to put you on /ignore ... and then I specifically read every post you made in this thread, one after the other.

If I'm talking about economics, and you're talking about my living arrangements, my flawed character, and my various sins ... that's not actually a dialogue.

Why should I listen to you if you're not listening to me?

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He's certainly not dispelling any myths about New Yorkers being self-absorbed, rude, conceited, or close-minded, thats for sure.

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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.

Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.


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I'm assuming that this is hyperbole. If not, then this is very poor judgement and should be taken this with a grain of salt. Brutes are not needed at all for general teaming. But to say they are absolutely useless by comparson is being disingenuous. Brutes have their uses, as do every other AT in this game.

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It was mostly hyperbole. My point mostly was that.

Can brutes be great team members? Yes.

Can a great team be absolutely 100% brute-free? Yes.

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[redside market]
I'm noticing that the prices have completely crashed and I'm seeing a lot more for sale all the time. (Yes, I know they go hand in hand. More supply generally means lower prices.) One of the common salvages in particular, one I used to flip from 10k to 125k (sometimes as high as 200k), is now selling for 50k ABSOLUTE max, with many sales under 10k!

What's going on?

Are people... leaving the AE building? It can't be...

Is this just a market goof? Could it be some kind of random fluctuation that will go back to normal soon so I can keep flipping?

Maybe my ability to flip was only because of a random fluctuation and it already HAS returned to normal...

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Its because everyones gearing up for 2x weekend. prices are going to fluctuate like mad for a bit.

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I Apologize to everyone for not starting a Charity service for the past 2 weeks. I've been stuck in the hospitle, looking after my Aunt.

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somehow I'd think rl family slightly more important.

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You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response

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Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.

And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.

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The thing is. You dont need a brute to keep the team together. at all.

Give a trick arrow mastermind or a Dark Blast Corruptor or a well played stormy some room and they'll easily handle that job without you.

Aggro control is also pointless if you have enough buffs to hardcap everyone.

Damage? Doms, masterminds, and Corrs can all do that too quite well.

All brutes bring to a team is a specific playstyle that involves CLUMPCLUMPCLUMPGOGOGOHITHITHIT.

Besides, not being able to hit everything with an AoE is going to happen no matter what you do, theoretical max dps is just that, its theoretical, it doesnt happen in 9/10 cases.

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... Hopefully I'm not playing into a specific attempt to pick a stupid internet fight (or derail an already stupid internet fight into your own personal new one), but it seems to me you're being just as full of crap about Brutes as he's being about Masterminds.

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Not really. I'm just saying he's vastly overestimating the importance of any one AT to team balance.

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You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response

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Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.

And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.

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The thing is. You dont need a brute to keep the team together. at all.

Give a trick arrow mastermind or a Dark Blast Corruptor or a well played stormy some room and they'll easily handle that job without you.

Aggro control is also pointless if you have enough buffs to hardcap everyone.

Damage? Doms, masterminds, and Corrs can all do that too quite well.

All brutes bring to a team is a specific playstyle that involves CLUMPCLUMPCLUMPGOGOGOHITHITHIT.

Besides, not being able to hit everything with an AoE is going to happen no matter what you do, theoretical max dps is just that, its theoretical, it doesnt happen in 9/10 cases.

I'm not saying brutes are pointless, i'm saying, a team doesnt reach its steamrolling best unless everyone is willing to compromise on playstyle.

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Yep, never again making a topic on these forums unless it's a question, since 90% of the people here don't comprehend when they read. My very first post already stated my beef is with bots MMs, and to a lesser degree the others (they do cause minor annoyances, but nothing to go crying about). My beef is not that any knockback = bad, it's that you as the human have little control over how the knockback is used (or at least 95% of the people playing this game will not go to the forums and seek out keybinds to better control the AI, or even know they exist). I'm not some super ego brute running around trying to tell everyone how I want things to work, I'm trying to figure out these MMs so I can work WITH them. I thought most forum goers were min/max guys like myself trying to find the fastest way to steamroll missions, but most of the responses have been "cry moar", so maybe that isn't the case...

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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.

Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.

Put 8 masterminds or corruptors together and you have enough bubbles and buffs and heals to make there be absolutely no need for tanking whatsoever, throw in a couple trick arrow users or dark blast users or a couple doms and you solve all your crowd control problems.

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I don't know if it's just me, but I wonder if the challenge of learning how to use the market is really something so daunting as it seems. I remember when the markets were first introduced to the game. Of course prices were a lot lower all around back then, but I remember the thrill of excitement I had when I listed one of my first drops on the market for maybe 10 influence and winning 2,000.

To a former altoholic used to buying DOs for low-level toons, 2,000 influence was a lot. After that first sale, I went out and started accumulating more salvage and listing it on the market for higher prices to see if people would still pay for it. My items still sold! I was so excited when I reached my first million in influence and thinking the world was my oyster. Of course, i was still mostly ignorant of how IOs worked, so I was happy.

As time went on, I intuitively started realizing that this market was like any other: That when there is something people want, there is an opportunity for profit. Just from playing the game, I discovered which items were in demand just by how much people were paying for them. Items like luck charms and ancient artifacts were some of my main money makers back in the day. I'd buy a stack of 10 at low prices and relist to make profit.

Gradually, I became more aware of IOs and how they were the ticket to major influence gains. I started buying recipes, crafting and selling. Up till now, that has been my main means of accumulating more wealth than I can spend on my now completely IO'd (with 1 purple set of 5 Hecatomb and 4 LotG) out main toon.

When I set out to IO my main toon, I knew prices were high, but I also knew that there was a way to earn influence just by selling items I knew people wanted that I didn't need. I played the game, selling recipes if they were worth enough and crafting others that were even better. Eventually, over time, I was able to get every IO I wanted to maximize my build. It took time, it took effort, but I never let the prices daunt me away from getting what I wanted.

I honestly believe that anybody can get anything they want in this game, even if they are a casual gamer, if they just use a little bit of brain power. The mechanics of the market in this game are not that complicated for those who will take a little time to learn how to use them. If they are too obstinate and turned off by high prices, well, that really is nobody's fault but their own.

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Its honestly easier than most.

I started out with MMO-ing in the cutthroat world of ff11 markets, which are horrifically hard to profit in based on just manipulating the market or crafting.

I then moved onto CoH a few months before IOs went live, and at that point was not really trying but even then, had enough cash to at least buy my DOs and SOs with the market. Onto WoW where I finally started trying to make money..but mostly just by gathering junk and selling it.

Then I came back to CoH, and after a few months of roleplaying, levelling, and taking a bath on bad bid ideas and get rich schemes, I came to reading these forums a bit and having nothing better to do, i decided to actually try my hand at marketing.

Its been about two months and a half of semi-serious work, and I now have about 400 million in liquid assets with 200 mil tied up in bids or stuff listed for sale. On my main toon alone.

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The point I was making, though, was that it isn't just them losing out. less people supplying the market means less overall supply, which leads to higher prices, which forms a barrier to entry in people's minds.

I'm not talking about people who aren't willing to make the effort, either. I'm talking about people who are willing to put in a LOT of effort just to avoid the market. And to be honest, responses like "tough cookies to them" isn't helpful towards getting people to use the market instead of walking away from it for good.

The TO/DO/SO sytem works just fine, so no need to change it. But IOs are better. The market and current drop rates work fine, but they COULD be better, encouraging people to use the market, rather than driving a number of players away from it. Which is why I still argue that "ultra rare" was a mistake. Of course, someone posted upthread that costume pieces were supposed to be high-dollar items originally too. The devs changed their minds there. I dont' think that making purples fall from the sky is a good idea, but I don't think that getting one should be the equivalent of winning the lottery either.

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well, I can kinda agree there. But Maybe I'm cynical to a degree. I just find a lot from irl experience, that people who actively hate something like the market for uninformed reasons rarely if ever will change their minds even if you nicely explain to them why you think theyre misguided.

Case in point being this topic itself. People DID explain to jdouble why his reasoning was flawed. They DID try to be patient. His response was the equivalent of plugging his ears and going "IM NOT LISTENING IM RITE UR WRONG"

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I don't think the gruesome results or people saving merits was entirely unexpected. it was one of the very things that the devs touted as a feature of merits: you can save your way to whatever you want, but it is generally more efficient to roll randoms.

If there was an underestimation by the devs, it was in just how many people want the shinies, but HATE the market system. Like I was 3 months ago. Like the OP. People who don't WANT to use the market, and don't understand why prices are so high.

People who want the shinies that the devs wanted to be exceptionally rare. The devs underestimated the desire of a great many players to get the best recipes in the game (I don't know how they missed this one, though...) They ALSO misread how many people would go to any lengths to avoid the market.

Truth is, when prices reach tens or hundreds of millions, for every poster that comes here and complains about the high prices, how many people simply look, decide they'll never be able to afford market prices, and start hoarding merits? I don't know the answer, but I will say that the people who don't use the forums and think prices are too high, are not going to come here, they aren't going to learn anything, and they will simply abandon the idea of ever using the market at all.

That's a bad deal all around. The players who walk away aren't contributing to the market, and they aren't benefiting from it.

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while thats true..all i can really say in response is..Tough cookies to them. Its not the dev's responsibility to give them loot they dont want to make the effort to get any more than it the government irl's responsibility to give out free ferraris to everyone who thinks they deserve one.

Its a luxury good, something you buy for the pleasure of because you can afford it, not a necessity.

You dont need IOs to be equipped for anything in this game outside more hardcore situations like the RWZ challenge or speedruns, which are hardcore gamer territory anyhow.

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MA created the 4th edition of DnD.

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We're supposed to insinuate that MA did bad things, not good things.



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MA made people think the 4th edition of D&D is a good thing.

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MA made people irrationally fear anything new.

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MA made people equate "not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars on new books" with "irrationally fearing anything new."

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MA made people forget that this has happened at least 4 times by now.

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MA Made Bards require a second damned handbook and be replaced in the core with [censored] /warlocks./

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Calash has it in a nutshell:

you're not supposed to like who you team with villain side, just tolerate them long enough until you achieve your goals, then kiss them off.
Pish to you Brutus, I am done with thee, for now!!!

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Not like brutes are necessary at all anyhow.

another way to manage it I've found is secondaries like Trick arrow or dark that give you ways to herd everything as a bots MM and generally destroy 90% of the mob before knockback becomes a worry.